Baikal 45-70 double rifle


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Uncle Alvah
September 22, 2005, 04:54 PM
The Spartan Gunworks SPR22 double rifle is available in 30/06, and 45/70.
I'm assuming the action is the same, yet the specs for the 45-70 specifically state:

SPR22 89980 45-70 Govt* $559
*NOTE: For Use with SAAMI Compliant Loads Only (28,000 PSI / 28,000 CUP Operating Pressure).

I'm guessing this rifle cannot handle the heavy 45-70 loads like the Hornadys, for instance??
The 30/06 has no such statement attached. I believe the SAMMI pressure on the 30/06 is about 50,000psi.
Wold the removal of more metal for the 45-70 case cause such a big difference in what the gun can safely be fired with? I'm surprized the 45-70 cannot accept full bore loads!

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Ultima-Ratio
September 22, 2005, 05:13 PM
you seen one anywherefor sale?

JesseL
September 22, 2005, 05:14 PM
PSI is as much about the SI's as the P's.

The 45-70 has a much larger surface area inside the base of the cartridge than the 30'06. So even though the 45-70 produces less pressure, it may produce a similar force against the breech face. I'll leave the math to someone else.

hillbilly
September 22, 2005, 05:15 PM
Uncle Alvah.....I'm going to bet that the warning about ammunition is done mostly for the benefit of lawyers.

That's why almost all new handguns come with manuals that specifically prohibit the use of reloads in the handgun.

That way, if Billybob does blow his hand off with a messed-up reload, the company can say that use of a handload voided any warranties on the gun, thus giving the manufacture more liability coverage.

I'll bet that the rifle is perfectly capable of handling most reasonable loads over those listed pressures.

But I'll also bet that there is some sort of specific, single, not-likely but possible exception to the warning, but that's the main reason that warning has been put out there.

hillbilly

Father Knows Best
September 22, 2005, 05:26 PM
The 45-70 was originally a black powder cartridge. The original load was a 405 grain (or larger!) lead bullet over 70 grains of black powder. The case capacity is HUGE. If some moron filled the case with a modern nitro (smokeless) powder, he would blow the gun to smithereens for sure.

rbernie
September 22, 2005, 05:47 PM
+1 for JesseL - it's probably a breechface thrust issue....

Working Man
September 22, 2005, 05:54 PM
Check out www.garrettcartridges.com
They have:

GARRETT'S 45-70 GOVERNMENT HAMMERHEAD AMMO $55 / 20 CTGS

420-GR SUPERHARDCAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1650-FPS
ENERGY: 2540 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 45; MEPLAT: .330";
CHAMBER PRESSURE: 27,000-CUP; SAAMI COMPLIANT; TRAJECTORY: +3.5"
@ 100-YDS, ZERO @ 150-YDS, -8.3" @ 200-YDS

They are very knowledgeable and friendly.

Headless Thompson Gunner
September 22, 2005, 05:55 PM
The original old-timey .45-70 ammo, for the original military rifles, was pretty weak. The guns just couldn't handle much.

Nowadays the metalurgy is much better. If you go out and buy a modern lever action .45-70, your rifle can withstand and benefit from much higher pressures than the original .45-70 specs call for.

So there's now a bit of confusion about what pressure levels are "OK" for .45-70. Shooters want high pressure ammunition for their modern guns, but lawyers are afraid of someone losing their face if they try to set off a modern round in an antique rifle.

So .45-70 ammo now comes in different pressure levels. Firearms are specified as to which pressure levels are safe to use. That way, if someone does something stupid and gets hurt, the manufacturers are (relatively) safe from liability. Shooters are expected to match the pressure levels of their load to the strength of their gun.

Cosmoline
September 22, 2005, 06:20 PM
My understanding is there are three distinct types of .45/70 ammunition. The distinctions are there for a VERY GOOD REASON, and aren't just for the lawyers. The first class includes the "cowboy" level smokeless loads and the black powder loads. These operate at low pressure and are considered safe even for old trapdoors in working order.

The second class includes rounds operating up to the SAAMI maximum of around 28,000. This includes most over-the-counter hunting loads from major ammo producers. The "light" Hammerhead cited above is about the maxium you can squeeze and remain in these limits.

The third class includes what should be called the .45-70 MAGNUMS or .45-70+p and +p+, the ultra-powerful loads from companies such as Buffalo Bore and hot handloads. Traditionally these were classed as being OK for the Ruger No. 1 ONLY, though now most agree they are OK for modern production Marlin 1894's as well (though I don't think MARLIN agrees with this!)

GunGoBoom
September 22, 2005, 07:22 PM
Cosmo, of course what you say is generally exactly correct, except that working man's post demonstrates that SOME loads in or approaching the general power/energy level of other "level 3s" (Garrett's at least) are actually apparently level 2s, in that they are still saami-compliant, 28,000 or less psi. But perhaps B.Bore's are not saami-compliant and therefore a true "level 3"? And saami doesn't actually publish 2 different (or 3 different) standards do they - rather, only 1? And I agree, I wouldn't try a true level 3 in anything but a Ruger #1. Actually, I'd let someone else try it in a number 1, not for fear of blowing up, but just because the shooter will sustain almost as much damage from recoil as the shootee. But a Garrett load within saami specs I'd try in a Marlin or Winchester (with a thick jacket on).

In any event, that would be a cool rifle, and wouldn't break the bank. :)

Cosmoline
September 22, 2005, 07:46 PM
Keep in mind that the cited Hammerhead load is a LIGHT Garrett load. Most of their hammerheads are cranked up well above SAAMI PSI limits, as are the Buffalo Bores.

Re. the .30'06 vs. .45/70 differences--consider this. A SAA frame chambered for .357 Magnum works fine and safely at much higher pressures than the same frame chambered for .45 Colt because the smaller .357 means it has a lot more steel around the chambers. The same would apply to a double gun. Smaller caliber = more steel around the chamber and the barrel = higher pressure tolerances.

With Marlin 1895's a great many of them have been used for high-pressure .45/70+p's over the years and I've never heard of one blowing up. Marlin itself may not want to give the approval to their use, but dropping a +p into one of those is quite a bit different from dropping it into some imported, fairly crude double gun based on a sxs shotgun frame.

Short answer--I'll wait till someone else tries it first :D

Kilgor
September 22, 2005, 11:35 PM
About a month ago I witnessed a 405 grain LFN @ 1,300 FPS go through an American Bison's (Buffalo) chest at 160 yards and keep going to parts unknown. Said Bison expired quickly.

I see little reason for a 405 gr @ 2,000 fps. Don't worry about it. If you like the gun buy it and know that original pressure 45-70 loads are MORE than you need to take down the largest critters on land.

P95Carry
September 22, 2005, 11:43 PM
Cosmo pretty much nailed the distinctions. I arbitrarily split to three too - nominally 25,000, 30,000 and 35,000 ........ trap-door, lever and Ruger 31.

Rem factory is low energy - trap door stuff which is quite mild. I load for my BFR up to about mid range, which is adequate for handgun then - stoke the top end to go in Ruger #1.
If some moron filled the case with a modern nitro (smokeless) powder, he would blow the gun to smithereens for sure. FKB - in fact my below max load for Ruger #1 is a case full and approaching compressed charge - of 3031 shoving a 405!!! It is safe - not moronic :D

thatguy
September 23, 2005, 10:41 AM
Someone else asked and I'll repeat the question. Anyone actually seen one of these for sale? They've been on the company web site for at least 6 months but no dealer or distributor I have contacted has been able to get one.

Father Knows Best
September 23, 2005, 10:45 AM
FKB - in fact my below max load for Ruger #1 is a case full and approaching compressed charge - of 3031 shoving a 405!!! It is safe - not moronic

P95Carry, I don't doubt you. The Ruger #1 can take it. I don't think I'd want to be the guy touching off that load in one of those Baikal double rifles, though, let alone a trapdoor Springfield or something similar. :eek:

rick_reno
September 23, 2005, 11:13 AM
Someone else asked and I'll repeat the question. Anyone actually seen one of these for sale?

No - I spoke with Remington last week about these guns, my neighbor wanted one for hunting season. They're expected to show up around the end of the year - worst case 1Q of 2006.

Headless Thompson Gunner
September 23, 2005, 02:39 PM
The "new" Spartan guns are the same guns Baikal has been importing for years.

So you can prolly get one now, it just won't say "Spartan Gunworks" onthe side.

rick_reno
September 23, 2005, 02:44 PM
The "new" Spartan guns are the same guns Baikal has been importing for years.

I think you're confused. The Baikal double rifles are over/unders - the Spartans are side by side. If you can buy one today, let me know where - my neighbor wants one.

HankB
September 23, 2005, 03:25 PM
If these .45/70s are side-by-sides, wouldn't the deciding factor in which ammo to use be what the barrels are regulated for?

TIMC
September 23, 2005, 03:29 PM
Last I heard they will not be available until the end of the year. Wholesalers are already listing them baut all I have seen say none in stock. I plan on getting one when they do come out. I have always wanted an express rifle in 45-70.

Dave R
September 23, 2005, 04:03 PM
If these .45/70s are side-by-sides, wouldn't the deciding factor in which ammo to use be what the barrels are regulated for? IIRC, the cool thing abouyt these rifles is you regulate them yourself. You sight in the one barrel, then adjust the other barrel with setscrews. Make it shoot where you want it to.

Gewehr98
September 23, 2005, 06:15 PM
And I agree, I wouldn't try a true level 3 in anything but a Ruger #1. Actually, I'd let someone else try it in a number 1, not for fear of blowing up, but just because the shooter will sustain almost as much damage from recoil as the shootee.

I run Beartooth 405gr hard cast gas check bullets on top of a full case of Reloder #7. From my Ruger #1S, it measures 2100fps through my chronograph. I can handle about 10 of these rounds from the standing position before I have to call it a day.

One of my post-retirement gifts to myself is a Cape Buffalo hunt. If I can't drop one of those critters inside of 10 rounds, he wins. ;)

mete
September 23, 2005, 06:30 PM
I haven't heard that anyone has actually gotten one .........The standard 300 gr 45-70 loads are only about 18,000 psi !! and they do very well on deer. Loaded up to 28,000 the load would be very potent indeed . This is not a cartridge that works on velocity ,you don't need to make a magnum out of it . Try it you'll like it !

Dr.Rob
September 23, 2005, 07:17 PM
well it's nowhere near as pretty as Pedersoli's 45/70 double, it looks functional.

and that SPR 94 in .22mag/.410 looks very interesting

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