9mm FMJ won't "pop" a balloon.


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Amadeus
September 22, 2005, 06:23 PM
I was at an informal competition a couple of months ago where some of the stages included balloons as targets.

I was a little disturbed to see that when shot with a 9mm the balloons would spring a slow leak rather than pop.

So what gives? Does it cause leaks rather than ruptures because the 9mm is small and fast? And does this demonstration mimic the bullet's effect on another stretchy substance such as skin?

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R.H. Lee
September 22, 2005, 06:32 PM
Had you used a .45, it would have popped not only every balloon, but every tire in that zipcode! :p

Sounds like LBS- Limp Balloon Syndrome. The pressure differential between the inside of the balloon and the outside atmosphere was too low.

Amadeus
September 22, 2005, 06:40 PM
I was using a .45.

Another competitor was using a 9mm.

His balloons would not pop. Mine were shredded.

However, his gun never jammed. Mine did. So I guess we're even.

Rockstar
September 22, 2005, 06:48 PM
Let's see, jammed .45 or functioning 9mm...really earthshaking decision time. :D

Amadeus
September 22, 2005, 06:58 PM
Let's see, jammed .45 or functioning 9mm...really earthshaking decision time

Yeah. No kidding. I love my Kimber. Fits my hand great and kills balloons & steel plates easily. It even works 90% of the time..... :banghead:

Rob1035
September 22, 2005, 07:09 PM
he obviously wasn't shooting extreme shock....

Amadeus
September 22, 2005, 07:14 PM
he obviously wasn't shooting extreme shock


Extreme Shock?? What is that?

RyanM
September 22, 2005, 07:27 PM
Extreme Shock?? What is that?

Ah, the old exploding fart ammo. http://www.extremeshockusa.com/ Plastic bullets.

Ken Rainey
September 22, 2005, 07:40 PM
What type of ammo was being used in the pistols?

Is your Kimber a series II with the external extractor?

MTMilitiaman
September 22, 2005, 07:42 PM
I have personally witnessed a 115 gr WWB FMJ fail to penetrate through an empty one quart oil jug at a range of about 30 feet when shot out of a Beretta M92.

I know it may be an anamoly but for my first experience shooting a 9mm, it was influencial to say the least...

Ken Rainey
September 22, 2005, 07:47 PM
MTMiliaman, I recently fired some WWB 115 fmj that barely made it out of the barrel - well, ok the bullet left the barrel and hit the target 10 yds away but the brass was still in the chamber - happened 3 times....just bad QC on that lot I guess. These came out of a 100rd value pack...I've never had a problem with the 50 rd boxes of WWB.???

Amadeus
September 22, 2005, 08:14 PM
What type of ammo was being used in the pistols?

Not sure what he was using in the 9mm. I believe it was FMJ. Probably practice stuff.

I was using a mix of WWB 230 grain and maybe some Blazer 230 grain FMJ.

My gun IS a series II but it was not an extraction jam. The slide locked open on a partially loaded magazine.

Ken Rainey
September 22, 2005, 08:31 PM
Ok, well, the extractor can cause feeding problems too if it's too tight...thought that may have been your problem.

Locked open too soon....well, is it possible that you bumped the slide stop - thumbs will "flop" enough to cause that if they are held close enough to it sometimes...or the slide stop "face" could need some attention...as 1911Tuner says, it's usually something simple.

Amadeus
September 22, 2005, 10:14 PM
the slide stop "face" could need some attention...as 1911Tuner says, it's usually something simple.


Thanks, Ken. It's tough to determine what's going on with the Kimber. It's such a random occurance that it is very difficult to see a pattern. Yet it occurs frequently enough to worry me. If it's an easy fix then I'm all for it. The problem is determining the fix.

Onmilo
September 23, 2005, 09:05 AM
For whatever reason, I feel a balloon popper does not a manstopper make,,,,,
Next time fill the balloons with cream of wheat. Wet cream of wheat.

GunGoBoom
September 23, 2005, 09:29 AM
This thread is absurd, particularly the implication from MTmilitiaman's post. While I'm not doubting what you saw necessary, I will say that *IF* a 9mm round pushes aside an object rather than penetrating it, based on the physics involved, then a .45 with the same bullet shape shot at the same object under the same conditions most certainly would not penetrate either, due to the slower speed AND larger surface area. It too would push it aside. Absolute hogwash to try in infer any actual performance on bad guys from what is written here.

Amadeus
September 23, 2005, 11:13 AM
*IF* a 9mm round pushes aside an object rather than penetrating it, based on the physics involved, then a .45 with the same bullet shape shot at the same object under the same conditions most certainly would not penetrate either,

Let me clarify. Both the .45 and the 9mm penetrated the balloon. The .45 popped the balloon spectacularly. While the 9mm only made a hole from which air seeped slowly.

I am not implying anything. I am asking what is it about the physics of a 9mm that would allow this to happen and IF those physics would have the same effect in a defensive situation.

Double Naught Spy
September 23, 2005, 11:45 AM
Whether or not the balloon popped isn't really salient to self defense issues unless your life depends on popping, not just deflating, balloons. For defensive isssues, people are not made of latex and overpressured with air on their insides.

What is not described in the query is where the balloons were being struck by the incoming rounds, if the balloons were filled to the same pressures, and if the balloons used were all of the same size, shape, and thickness of latex. In other words, depending on the balloon and inflation, results may vary.

There are other issues as well. In particular, how were the balloons mounted to be shot? Sometime back, we did a "Women's Revenge" sort of shoot where we used slightly inflated balloons to represent the scrotum in an IPDA silhouette target. We were surprised to find a huge inability of the shooters to rupture the "scrotum" even though holes in the target behind the balloon indicated that the balloon should have been hit. What we found was that the under inflated balloons were pushed out of the way, in part, by the pressure change created by the incoming rounds and that the lack of inflation gave the balloons a lot of flexibility to handle the brief insults.

Here is an explanation for popping balloons, or not, I borrowed. The key words are "Tensile cohesion."

This is from the 2/9/96 Charlotte Observer. Each Friday, they run a "You Can U" with a Beakman and Jax segment in the comics section. It deals with an explanation of a child's science- related question of the week. This weeks question: "Why do balloons pop and why do they make a loud sound" (sent in by a child with the appropriate last name of Huff).

The response deals with how a balloon breaks. The explanation: "Here are two big words: tensile cohesion (TEN-sill co-HE-shun). They mean *stretchy strength*. Balloons break when they get expanded beyond the limits of their stretchy strength."

Then they give the kids two experiments (demonstrations) to do athome: blowing up a paper bag until it pops (to illustrate air compression and the related explosion), and what appears to be the needle through the balloon gag. Here's their run through:

"You Need: Balloon. Bamboo Skewer. Blow up the balloon and tie its end with a knot. Find the spot at the top of the balloon that is darker in color. Gently twist the skewer into the very top and out near the knot at the bottom. If you're careful, the balloon will not pop."

"The Balloon is made from latex, a substance that's built like long stretchy springs. When these springs get stretched too long, they snap and the balloon pops. The top and bottom of the balloon are like springs that are relaxed and are not pulling away. Everywhere else on the balloon, these *springs* are stretched tight near the limit of their strength-near the limits of their tensile cohesion."

MICHAEL T
September 23, 2005, 12:26 PM
Gee same way 9mm ball works on street just a slow leak Where the 45 picks them up, throws them 50' and then splatters them. :D Replace that Kimber with a Colt and you won't have those problems.

RyanM
September 23, 2005, 12:42 PM
Might have been because the 9mm was supersonic? If the sonic pressure wave thingie was enough to increase pressure outside the balloon, that could make it perform oddly.

mattw
September 23, 2005, 12:57 PM
This thread is absurd, particularly the implication from MTmilitiaman's post. While I'm not doubting what you saw necessary, I will say that *IF* a 9mm round pushes aside an object rather than penetrating it, based on the physics involved, then a .45 with the same bullet shape shot at the same object under the same conditions most certainly would not penetrate either, due to the slower speed AND larger surface area. It too would push it aside. Absolute hogwash to try in infer any actual performance on bad guys from what is written here.

before you get all upity and someone turns this into a 9 v. 45 thread don't forget that the mass and speed of the .45 equals more inertia than the mass and speed of a 9. i think someone said the .45 on average has about 50 ft/lbs more than an equivalant 9mm load

Dr.Rob
September 23, 2005, 01:38 PM
WW White box FMJ in 50 rd and 100 round bulk packs, both clock at over 1200 fps out of my Hi-Power clone, and nearly that when fired from a Luger.

I don't know what the heck you guys are talking about.

shield20
September 23, 2005, 03:28 PM
We used balloons in training on occasion - no problem popping them with 9mm - 'spectacularly' too.

nero45acp
September 23, 2005, 05:35 PM
After reading this entire thread all I can say is, I want my 10 minutes back! :neener: ;)



nero

sigstroker
September 23, 2005, 06:32 PM
Coming next:

"9mm won't punch holes in paper target.

I was at the range the other day and my friend's 9mm bullets kept pushing the paper target out of the way. Does he have to use tissue paper? He would like to see where the bullets are going so he can practice better."

Pietro Beretta
September 23, 2005, 06:36 PM
After reading this entire thread all I can say is, I want my 10 minutes back!

No Crap! :D

This kind of reminds me when I was watching Mail Call on the history channel. R. Lee Ermey shot a watermelon with a M1A ParaTrooper carbine with folding stock. It took him 4 or 5 shots to get the melon to fall apart at close range.

About 3 weeks ago my friend, brother, and I went shooting. My friend had this idea to buy a couple of watermelons and see what different rounds would do to it. We bought 3 medium-large sized watermelons, they literally blew into piecies when shot with a .357Mag, nothing left literally. We each got a turn blowing up the rest of the melons.

Looking at those results: .357Mag>30-06

Looking at these baloon results .45>9mm (but then everyone could have told us that :scrutiny: )

varoadking
September 23, 2005, 08:21 PM
I have personally witnessed a 115 gr WWB FMJ fail to penetrate through an empty one quart oil jug at a range of about 30 feet when shot out of a Beretta M92.

The technical term for that is "A miss."

Amadeus
September 23, 2005, 08:34 PM
Thanks, everyone for your responses. I realize this was a somewhat silly thread. But it stemmed from what I feel was simple curiosity. My question was answered with Double Naught Spy's very detailed response about tensile cohesion.

I think we can all let this one end before it deteriorates any more. Thanks.

Bart Noir
September 25, 2005, 04:40 PM
Nope, more deterioration coming...

Double Naught Spy, that brings back the oftern taught self defense method: 2 to the chest, one to the scrotum. But dang-it, will a shooter hesitate a fateful amount, trying to decide "left or right, left or right, which will it be"?

Bart Noir

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