AR-15 Double Feeds?


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marklbucla
September 22, 2005, 11:10 PM
I've been having double feed issues with my Olympic Arms Lower, Bushmaster M4 Upper with Muzzle Brake and CDNN surplus Mags. Ammo was the steel cased Monarch Ammo from Academy. The gun has a tendency to strip off two rounds simultaneously and tries to jam them both into the chamber at once. I tried bending the lips, but it didn't seem to work.

Am I correct in diagnosing this as a magazine related issue and that the lips just need to be bent or is it possibly a spring/follower issue?

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Harry Tuttle
September 22, 2005, 11:33 PM
Brownell's has brand new 30 round mags
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=22270&title=PURCHASE+A+FOXHOLE+4+PAK+%26+RECEIVE+FREE+SHIPPING&s=48086

Tweak says:
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=240129
Double Feed/ 2F
06/10/05

Defined as two live rounds trying to feed into the chamber at the same time. A live round feeding into the rear of a fired round is a FtEx. The magazine is at fault 99.9% of the time. The other .1% is caused by over function causing the bolt to strike the inside of the LRE hard enough to jar rounds from the magazine. This is often seen on rifles with over large gas ports and weak buffer springs with light buffers.

Don't Tread On Me
September 23, 2005, 02:09 AM
Buy Labelle/D&H industry magazines. They are 30 rounders, with the newer green follower, proper spring, and they are teflon coated. Bushmaster magazines are made by them. Bravo Company sells these also, as well as a few other AR vendors.

These are THE best magazines - period.


Next. Purchase some XM193 ammo. This is made by Federal. Comes in 20 round brown paper boxes. This ammo has the greatest chance of functioning in your rifle. This is because it is held to a higher quality control standard than the vast majority of commercial ammo, and it is real NATO pressure - so it will cycle your action the way it was meant to be cycled (if that is the issue, it will help identify it). This isn't nearly as important as having the right magazine, but it might help.


Double feeds are almost always magazine related. At least 95% of the time or more.


AR's are great rifles. They are extremely reliable despite the internet myths. Their achilles heel is the magazine. You absolutely must use a high quality USGI magazine for the rifle to have a chance at functioning well.

beerslurpy
September 23, 2005, 02:38 AM
AR's are great rifles. They are extremely reliable despite the internet myths. Their achilles heel is the magazine.

Lollercaust. The internet myths didnt include anything about excuses, so I guess you got us there.

I dont think you will care what part caused the unreliability when a looter is charging you with a kitchen knife while you fiddle with the forward assist or perhaps try to remove a round the non-fixed extractor missed.

I have to admit I have never owned an AR15 variant. I had the pleasure of shooting a few, after which I decided that the internet myths werent so hypothetical. If it isnt the mags, its the dirtyness. If it isnt the extractor its the ammo. Etc etc. Every AR owner I have met either treats his gun like laboratory equipment or makes constant excuses for why it misbehaves.

They are great guns from every standpoint except reliability. Accurate, light, a pleasure to shoot....

Mulliga
September 23, 2005, 02:46 AM
CDNN surplus Mags

Which ones?

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/ar15m16.html

My personal rule of thumb is "aluminum mags for an aluminum gun."

I had the pleasure of shooting a few, after which I decided that the internet myths werent so hypothetical.

Aren't we a few weeks early for the monthly AR thread? ;)

3rdpig
September 23, 2005, 02:58 AM
I have to admit I have never owned an AR15 variant. I had the pleasure of shooting a few, after which I decided that the internet myths werent so hypothetical.

I've got 3 AR's, if you had have fired mine instead of the ones you did you'd be running around swearing that AR's are the most reliable guns in the world. One test I put every self defense weapon I own through is to fire 500 rounds of mixed ammo, using a variety of magazines, with no cleaning and not suffer any failures. All 3 of my AR's have done this numerous times. As a matter of fact I'll bet $20 that any one of the 3 will do it on any given day.

Magazines ARE the AR's weak link, just as they're any semi auto's weak link. Try getting the same legendary reliability from a Glock using non Glock magazines or magazines with weak springs. The problem is that not only are there way too many junk AR magazines around, but there are way too many AR's around that have been put together by people that don't know what they're doing using low quality parts.

A good AR, using USGI magazines, is probably one of the most reliable semi auto rifles you'll ever use. And yes, unlike an AK the AR does need to be cleaned every 1000 rounds or so.

3rdpig
September 23, 2005, 03:06 AM
My personal rule of thumb is "aluminum mags for an aluminum gun."

I agree! You could also say "Plastic mags for plastic guns" and cover Glocks as well!

Seriously, USGI mags are dirt cheap, I routinely buy them, sealed in the plastic bag, for $10 a piece at gunshows. At this price there's no excuse, or need, to purchase anything else. The magazine is the heart of a guns feeding mechanism, don't buy junk mags! If one gets damaged throw it away or mark it "range use only".

Gary G23
September 23, 2005, 11:32 AM
I use D&H and NHMTG USGI mags with MagPul followers, and XM193 ammo. No problems.

willeo6709
September 23, 2005, 11:45 AM
The mags I use to troubleshoot with are some ancient straight 20 rounders with Hartford manufacturing floorplates. If you only have trouble with certain mags, it could be a mag issue. If you have trouble with all mags it is something else. Several possibilities exist. The mag is the only one easy to correct. I'd get a known good mag( one of your buddies that has one that works flawlessly in his gun) and trade him mags, if his now malfunctions with your mag and yours does not with his, paint that mag red and try it again. If your gun works with all of his mags, get different mags. The toher resolutions are involved and require precision measuring to determine the problem.

Leo Williams
Superior Arms
www.superiorarms.com

Elmer
September 23, 2005, 12:30 PM
If it isnt the mags, its the dirtyness. If it isnt the extractor its the ammo. Etc etc. Every AR owner I have met either treats his gun like laboratory equipment or makes constant excuses for why it misbehaves.

They are great guns from every standpoint except reliability. Accurate, light, a pleasure to shoot....


I couldn't agree more. I helped teach a number of rifle classes, and watched quite a few more. It was a rare day where 15-20% of the AR's didn't have some kind of problem.

A good comparison would be some of today's Wonder "Tactical" 1911's. They also don't work much of the time, but their owners still swear by them. As long as they look cool.

It seems we're in the age of the Tactical Walter Mitty...

Elmer
September 23, 2005, 12:33 PM
The problem is that not only are there way too many junk AR magazines around, but there are way too many AR's around that have been put together by people that don't know what they're doing using low quality parts.


Yup.

Colt.... Bushmaster..... DPMS..... Armalite....

antarti
September 23, 2005, 01:31 PM
Please help me understand the following:

A live round feeding into the rear of a fired round is a FtEx. The magazine is at fault 99.9% of the time.

Won't the AR extract/eject a round without a magazine in it? Is there no extractor and ejector/plunger? Doesn't the round eject before the bolt/carrier thingy is in position to strip another round?

I'm not an AR guy (Garand/Carbine/AK type), but that FT-Extract rationale just doesn't add up to me. Help me out with why the mag is at fault for an FTEx.

Thin Black Line
September 23, 2005, 02:19 PM
Buy Labelle, OK, Bushmaster, etc. Avoid steel mags like the plague.

Harry Tuttle
September 23, 2005, 04:55 PM
read the gospel of Tweak as such:

Defined as two live rounds trying to feed into the chamber at the same time. The magazine is at fault 99.9% of the time.
(A live round feeding into the rear of a fired round is a FtEx.)

FtEx is diagnosed here:
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=240118
FtEx
07FEB05

Usually a weak extractor spring, can also be caused by over function, tight HS, rough chamber, or too small of a chamber. Check the extractor groove for signs that the extractor is firmly grabbing the case. If there is a mark from the extractor on the extraction groove then you probably have an over function or tight HS.

Don't Tread On Me
September 23, 2005, 05:58 PM
Lollercaust. The internet myths didnt include anything about excuses, so I guess you got us there.

I dont think you will care what part caused the unreliability when a looter is charging you with a kitchen knife while you fiddle with the forward assist or perhaps try to remove a round the non-fixed extractor missed.

I have to admit I have never owned an AR15 variant. I had the pleasure of shooting a few, after which I decided that the internet myths werent so hypothetical. If it isnt the mags, its the dirtyness. If it isnt the extractor its the ammo. Etc etc. Every AR owner I have met either treats his gun like laboratory equipment or makes constant excuses for why it misbehaves.

They are great guns from every standpoint except reliability. Accurate, light, a pleasure to shoot....


Well, your experience differs from mine. I've never had extractor issues, nor ammo issues, nor dirtyness issues. The AR can shoot filthy all day long. Many people run their AR's over 1,000 rounds with no cleaning, some several 1,000 rounds. With no problems. I've never had a jam, and I don't treat mine like a safe queen. Just normal maintenance, and that's it.

There are 2 major requirements to an AR, use real magazines, and get a good AR to start with. And there aren't many makes of good AR's. It is a more finicky rifle, and as a result - cutting corners in the process of manufacturing them will lead to serious problems later on. This is very evident in some very big name AR makers.


In the world of commerical AR's it is very hard to get one that is close to a mil-spec quality of build. AK's for examle not only have a superior design for being durable/reliable, but they almost always come from overseas factories that do not make seperate commercial parts and military parts. The AR can be extremely reliable too if you get a real one.


In any event, whatever you get should be the best quality of that make. I've seen quite a few AK's break or jam often. As great as the unreliable AR myth is, so is the unstoppable AK myth. However, I won't blame the platform, but rather how well it was made, or what quality of parts were used.


A good rifle, whether it be an M1 carbine, AK, or AR must be made the way it was meant to be made to work right.


I don't trust any weapon. I test them first. I test each magazine. I test the ammo. I run them hard. Few people fire mag after mag and try and torture the gun. I do not rely on internet myths that tell me a rifle is going to be a jam-o-matic, or if a rifle will be 100% reliable and nothing on Earth will jam it.


That is a recipe for disaster.

Gewehr98
September 23, 2005, 06:34 PM
I've got a pre-'94 ban Colt Competition HBAR that's a jammomatic, be it with factory ammo, mil-spec, or my Sierra MatchKing handloads (and I've handloaded for all of my autoloaders for decades, so don't go there). The darned thing is accurate, but if I don't do a thorough cleaning after a couple hundred rounds, it'll do all sorts of evil gyrations, including that nasty "round wedged in the upper on top of the bolt carrier" trick.

I've since been told that the probable cause is magazine-induced. I don't use junk or cheap mags, mine are all Hartford Horseys or come from the GSA wrapper. I spent some time earlier this year putting new follower springs and green followers in the magazines that have had rounds in them. We'll see if that darned malfunction happens again. :scrutiny:

Don't Tread On Me
September 24, 2005, 12:44 AM
Antarti,

A double feed automatically implies two live rounds getting jammed in the action. This is 95% of the time the magazine, although in a rare case I imagine a loose mag well or something terribly out of line or out of spec could cause it.


Whenever a live round and a fired round jam in an action, the only thing that should be focused on is the empty case that didn't extract or eject. You have to assume the live round is there due to the proper function of the rifle to strip off a new round and try to chamber it. There is no reason for an empty case to still be inside the action when a new round is being stripped from the magazine.



I think whomever wrote that (tweak from ar15.com) didn't type that up correctly. So in that respect, you're right to point out the error.

Bottom Gun
September 24, 2005, 01:04 AM
I think if you get a couple of USGI issue magazines your problem will disappear.
I've never had any luck with commercial mags.

marklbucla
September 24, 2005, 01:06 AM
Mulliga, They were the New Replacement 30 round mags: http://www.cdnninvestments.com/ar230pastman.html

I bought some used mags at the range and my AR ran flawlessly. It also cleared up an issue that I've been having with the M261 conversion kit and the supposed light strikes I was getting. It turned out that the loose lipped mags weren't holding the conversion mag in place.

beerslurpy
September 24, 2005, 02:00 AM
In the world of commerical AR's it is very hard to get one that is close to a mil-spec quality of build. AK's for examle not only have a superior design for being durable/reliable, but they almost always come from overseas factories that do not make seperate commercial parts and military parts. The AR can be extremely reliable too if you get a real one.

That is really my main gripe right there. I dont want to have to throw the dice to the tune of 7-800 dollars (and more) per gun trying to get a winner. I have heard so many conflicting stories about which brands are good and bad in the AR world that I gave up trying to sort them out years ago.

If I were making the gun myself from scratch, I might do an AR, but more likely I would do an AK and just try to fix the accuracy. I think AK reliability might have suffered if there werent such a huge supply of decent milsurp stuff floating around the world, but we will never know.

Bottom Gun
September 24, 2005, 02:11 AM
Armalite (or Eagle Arms), Bushmaster and Colt have been acknowledged as being the best. I have one of each and they are reliable and accurate. I have never had a malfunction with any of them except when I bought some Olympic ammo which wouldn't cycle in any of them. They have functioned perfectly with everything else I've stuffed into them including my handloads and Wolf and accuracy has been sub MOA with some ammo.

The lower receiver surface finish on the Armalite and the Bushmaster is better than the Colt but they function equally well.

I don't think you can go wrong with one of the above rifles.

beerslurpy
September 24, 2005, 02:22 AM
What is wrong with the olympic ammo? I have seen that fail before too.

Mulliga
September 24, 2005, 02:24 AM
I dont want to have to throw the dice to the tune of 7-800 dollars (and more) per gun trying to get a winner.

You can have the same things happen with a $700-$800 1911. The vast majority run fine, a small number need tweaking, and a very small number need to be sent back.

Bottom Gun
September 24, 2005, 02:52 AM
This particular lot of Olympic ammo was 62 gr green tip. It simply did not generate enough pressure to cycle the action and it short stroked on every round. We tried it in five different rifles with various barrel lengths and it wouldn't cycle any of them.

I sent the remainder of the case back to Ammoman and Eric, being a good guy, sent me some South African 55 gr to replace it. The SA ammo is good stuff.

Don't Tread On Me
September 25, 2005, 04:36 AM
Beerslurpie,


You couldn't be more right. With AR's it is a pain in the *** to figure it all out. The amount of research it takes to gain experience without doing the costly trial and error for yourself is painful in itself.


AR's need certain things. They need a chrome lined bore/chamber. That is what the .mil demands, but commercial AR's are all over the place without such feature. They need real magazines, not crappy commercial junk that doesn't work. Then you get to the quality of the rifle parts. Most commercial AR's are not made with the same quality steel in various parts of the rifle. This leads to failures. Military spec AR's are tested with certain quality control procedures, like a 77,000 psi 100gr proof load being fired through it. After that, the barrel and bolt are tested for cracks or flaws. Commercial ones are not. This is why there is a significantly greater instance of broken bolts with commercial AR's.


The list goes on and on. The closest thing to a mil-spec AR is the LE models of Colts. They are pretty much the real deal minus the full-auto parts. Experts and trainers who deal with these systems on a daily basis all unanimously conclude that Colt rifles fail the least, and not very often at all. Very much less than the next competitor (bushmaster). The military also wouldn't use a total POS as their main rifle for so many years if it was a piece of junk. I know the military does do stupid things and they issue horrible equipment, but 40 years of the AR? That's a long time to keep junk around. It isn't a bad rifle and it is far more reliable than most people think. Most people make up their mind after hearing early vietnam accounts of the rifle and its problems back then. Add a whole slew of non-mil spec commercial ARs that are junk and give people horror stories to share and there you have it.


If you're the type of person that doesn't like to be bothered with all the details and the BS involved with rifles like the AR ...the AK is the best option. Out of the box, it is tough as nails and reliable. Some people in my family agree with that and have good quality AK's and life is simple. I just hope that the AKs will live on after this latest ATF ruling and import problems.

355sigfan
September 25, 2005, 05:40 AM
Buy Labelle/D&H industry magazines. They are 30 rounders, with the newer green follower, proper spring, and they are teflon coated. Bushmaster magazines are made by them. Bravo Company sells these also, as well as a few other AR vendors.

These are THE best magazines - period.

END QUOTE

Their good mags but HK mags have them beat every day of the week and twice on sunday. :neener:
Pat

355sigfan
September 25, 2005, 05:45 AM
Quote:
If it isnt the mags, its the dirtyness. If it isnt the extractor its the ammo. Etc etc. Every AR owner I have met either treats his gun like laboratory equipment or makes constant excuses for why it misbehaves.

They are great guns from every standpoint except reliability. Accurate, light, a pleasure to shoot....




I couldn't agree more. I helped teach a number of rifle classes, and watched quite a few more. It was a rare day where 15-20% of the AR's didn't have some kind of problem.

A good comparison would be some of today's Wonder "Tactical" 1911's. They also don't work much of the time, but their owners still swear by them. As long as they look cool.

It seems we're in the age of the Tactical Walter Mitty...
END QUOTE

Actually it depends on the AR. My COlt has ran fine through intensive sert trainings with well over 1000 rounds without a problem and without cleaning. My Wilson has been fine I broke it in with 2500 rounds without cleaning it with no malfunctions. People swear by the 1911 and the AR15 because they work well not because they look cool.
Pat

FotoTomas
September 25, 2005, 09:24 AM
I have owned several Colt AR15 rifles in the past and they were rock solid. I currently have a Colt LE Carbine in the house and it too is a rock solid performer.

I had several Bushmaster rifles and carbines in the past. They too ran like the well made machines they were.

My Army issue M16s were damn reliable as well though my opportunities to shoot them hard were limited.

When it came to my Olympic Arms carbine I had nothing but trouble. Sometimes parts issues, ammo issues, jamming when hot. Had that been my only AR experience I too would have a sour disposition to the platform.

Fortunatly for me I have seen how good they truly are and my Colt LE Carbine is a intergral part of my LE career as well as being available for personal use in matches and home defense. It is not a super dooper tactical repository with every thing but the kitchen sink. Instead it is a basic longarm that I trust to allow me to reliably control my enviroment.

I only regret that so much has been said about the rifle in negative terms and so many POS rifles are out there that the true concept is sullied. Even so I stand by my rifle. It has proven itself to me in testing and competition and I rely on it to get me home if necessary.

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