Glock Pointability


PDA






CombatArmsUSAF
September 24, 2005, 10:03 AM
I have shot several glocks over the years (17,23, and recently the 22) Since I just got seriously involved in shooting over the past two years I never really knew what I was looking for in a gun until recently. Now the other day my boss brought his Glock 22 into work, which gave me the opportunity to do a serious review of the glock brand of firearms and if I would be buying one in the future. One of things that concerns me about the Glock 22 is the fact that when I bring the weapon up to the target I am looking at about 1"-1.5" gap in between the rear sight and the front sight. Now I understand that I can train myself to bring it on target naturally, but when I have firearms available to me like any number of my berettas or xds that naturally, due to a more ergonomically suitable grip, can be easily brought onto target I don't see the point. The pointability of the glock is similar to that of a revolver which is why I don't shoot wheel guns. Having to train for this, in my mind, is a unnecassary step, and one that unless practiced a whole hell of a lot could be forgotten in stressful situation causing you to take a half a second longer coming on target. We all know what that can end up meaning.

;) Disclaimer ;) I am not bashing the glock brand of firearms, I am simply stating that the grip angle is not for everyone, especially not me.

If you enjoyed reading about "Glock Pointability" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Sergeant Sabre
September 24, 2005, 10:48 AM
I feel your pain. The Glock pistols are very good, rugged, reliable pistols. I am somewhat dissappointed that the grip is so poor (for me).

During the course of my current academy training, I carry a Glock 22. When I draw it and try to come on target, it just feels like the pistol is "fighting" my hand :mad: . It feels I have to force it to go where I want.

Conversely, pistols with a grip shape more congruent with the shape of the inside of a human hand when clenched, such as my Colt Government, the Berettas, High Powers, Sigs, and XDs I've handled, seem to just want to easily point wherever I am looking.

<sigh>

Chipperman
September 24, 2005, 10:56 AM
Pointability is an important factor that many people ignore when they buy their first gun.

Having a gun that does not naturally point at the target for you is fine for plinking, but not good for a CCW.

Old Dog
September 24, 2005, 10:57 AM
Glock grips just don't do it for me, either. I've gone through three Glocks, starting with the 17 back in the early '90s ... I went through a spell where I actually carried a 23 daily ... but, in spite of taking the 23 through a couple training courses and for a while, almost daily range sessions, I simply could not shoot this platform anywhere near as well as I shoot 1911s, SIGs or even the M-9. The grip angle doesn't work for me, and I'd bet there are a lot more folks out there who intuitively know it doesn't work for them either, but won't admit it ... let's face it, there are many, many more platforms out there with better ergonomics (and I'd include the CZ-75 series, the SA XD series, 1911s, many SIGs, hell, even the S&W Sigmas and Taurus 24/7s and Milleniums in the categories of handguns that fit more peoples' hands better than Glocks).

ChuckB
September 24, 2005, 11:40 AM
Everone's different, of course. I shoot pretty well with my G19, but some folks don't like the grip angle. Proper fit is essential. If a gun doesn't feel right to you, move on. If it feels just right, buy it. Or, "If the gun is mo' fly, then you must buy"! ;)

Chuck

HSMITH
September 24, 2005, 12:24 PM
I have no problem transitioning from my Glocks to my 1911s or to my wheelguns.

para.2
September 24, 2005, 12:28 PM
For me, Glocks "point" just fine. I have to adjust with other pistols/revolvers. That's why there's Ford/Chevy/Honda,etc. :)

markinho
September 24, 2005, 12:57 PM
I've shot a loaner G19 a few times and thought that it pointed pretty well but felt that the G19's overall ergonomics were just so-so. Then I handled--but didn't shoot--an XD-9 and thought that it REALLY felt like a huge improvement over the G19.

But when I shot the XD-9 I was surprised to find that I remember the G19 to feel more natural in terms of pointability. The XD-9 did feel better in my hand, but once I got to raising the gun and aiming, all bets were off and the G19 to me lined up and shot more accurately, to boot.

Memories can be deceiving, so I swapped out the XD for a G19 and found that my recollection was correct: head-to-head the G19 pointed more naturally to me and shot more accurately. Incidentally, I noticed less recoil on the G19 than the XD-9.

Now, my impression is hardly scientific---in fact it's about as subjective as you can get. Getting back to pointability, the only thing I could account for this would be the grip angle of the Glock as compared to the XD-9. I am relatively new to handguns and am still sorting out which semiauto to get as a second handgun to accompany my .22 Ruger, so the issue of "what feels best in my hand" obviously has to include pointability, not just dry-firing hand ergonomics.

Anybody have any thoughts on how the Glock's grip angle affects pointability, one way or the other?

GotGlock
September 24, 2005, 01:22 PM
The glock grip angle helps keep the gun lower in your hand, that really helps with muzzle flip. I find my g19 will point where i want it to without even thinking about it. Thats why i bought it. Being a rookie shooter and not having any experience with anything else, i took to the glock like a fish to water, im sure if i had been shooting 1911's my whole life it would have felt weird.

45+
September 24, 2005, 01:28 PM
I started carrying when most LEO's (I was a reserve deputy sherriff) would not carry a semi because of the unreliability, so I carried a revolver per deparmental policy. When I picked up my first Glock, I was amazed at how "naturally" it pointed. Perhaps it was all that revolver training.

When I purchased a Glock and found it to be dependable from personal experience and respected opinions, I began carrying one as my CCW. I still carry a proven revolver, or a Glock, or a Taurus Millennium as my duty weapon (security guard) or ccw without a moment's hesitation. They all point naturally for me and I trust that any will do the job when called upon if I do my part.

If a handgun does not point naturally for you, choose something that does. If there are overwhelming reasons to choose one that does not (departmental issue, etc.), then plan to train until it does point naturally. Perhaps a laser sight would aid this process. But whatever it takes, get comfortable with the gun you carry/plan to use either by selection or by (re)training.

Good shootin'....

TimboKhan
September 24, 2005, 01:38 PM
Actually, this is my biggest issue with Glocks. I am not a glock hater by any stretch, although I do have to laugh at some of the praise that is heaped on this gun, and I do not buy into the the whole "trigger safety" thing, as I just can't wrap my mind around how that little bar, that takes up the bulk of the trigger space can make the gun any safer than one that doesn't, but other than that, I can't say that I have ever been horrified by the glocks that I have shot. For me, I just don't care for the feel of the gun, and as a result will likely never own one.

Mastrogiacomo
September 24, 2005, 01:46 PM
I think they're great, easier to carry than my Berettas too. I'd love a Glock 26 if my state would just let them back in.... :(

Smoke
September 24, 2005, 02:00 PM
Pick one platform and stick with it.

Glock's not yours. It's not mine either. Die hard Glock owners will have a similar issue with shooting low if they switch to a 1911 or similar angle grip.

Train with one platform, carry one platform, less need to think when the pressure in on.

Smoke

Tokugawa
September 24, 2005, 03:04 PM
since we have plastic guns, why don't the manufacturers supply a polymerizing grip putty- you activate the polymer putty, hold the weapon in a suitable position, I.E. natural point, and mold the putty to your palm, fingers, etc? when cured a perfect fit.

JohnKSa
September 24, 2005, 04:04 PM
Pointability is based on two things.

Basic ergonomics of the firearm.
If you're not accustomed to a particular grip angle/design, then your hand/wrist structure will determine the best grip angle/design for you.

What the shooter is used to.
If you're accustomed to a particular grip angle/design, then what you've trained your hand/wrist to do while shooting will determine the best grip angle/design for you. In other words, once you're used to a particular grip angle, it will seem "right" to you even if it's not the most ergonomic design for your hand/wrist structure. AND, conversely, a more ergonomic design may feel or point "wrong" because of how you have trained your hand/wrist.

Probably 9 times out of 10, people complaining about the pointability or grip angle of a gun are talking about the latter issue but making it sound like the former issue.

Black Majik
September 24, 2005, 05:06 PM
My only gripe about Glocks was the pointability also. Other than that, I find them to be fantastic firearms. But, for me... I started off shooting 1911s, and no matter how I tried to adjust to the Glock grip angle, I'd always naturally aim high. It became a burden to have to readjust the line of sight for each shot, too much work to shoot straight for me.

Otherwise, I honestly think it'd be the PERFECT CCW weapon if that darn Glock pointed naturally in my hands. But what do I know, I dont CCW, but it has some great qualities.

Oh yeah, that trigger too... I've tried to forget about it... :uhoh: :D

kimbermaniac
September 25, 2005, 03:23 AM
Never had any issues with my Glocks pointability/grip or otherwise.Can't even relate to some of the complaints.I guess if Glock ain't for you, it ain't for you.In fact I had a couple Sig Sauer's,a Kimber and I'm back with a Glock.So,I guess I prefer Glocks.

DAVE RICHARDS
September 25, 2005, 04:32 AM
Everybodies hands are different. Glocks grip angle doesn't work for lots of people. Try an XD9 if your interested in a Glock style pistol. It follows the lines of the 1911 as far as grip angle. It works alot better for alot of people. The CZ75 points well for alot of people. The 1911 and Hi Power are also excellent as far as pointability. You have to simply find what works for you hand and grip.

Soap
September 25, 2005, 08:16 AM
Try practicing with it.

HSMITH
September 25, 2005, 12:56 PM
Try practicing with it.

Now Daniel, if you want to make sense don't expect anyone to listen. A nugget of truth like gaining proficiency will likely fall on deaf ears.

pax
September 25, 2005, 01:08 PM
Here's the thing that gets me: too many people find that a particular brand of gun doesn't point well for them, and then get online and post, "That brand of gun doesn't point well! It's got a lousy grip angle!"

That "lousy" grip angle for you might be the cat's pajamas for someone else. There's no such thing as a perfect grip angle for everyone, and no such thing as a terrible grip angle for everyone.

People are all different. That's why they make different guns.



pax

Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world. -- Schopenhauer

1911 guy
September 25, 2005, 03:10 PM
I agree with Pax that because the Glock grip angle is wrong for me (it feels lousy) that it is wrong for everybody. Case in point is my friend Mark. He's got a Ruger P89 (pretty sure) that he loves and has had for a few years now. He keeps it clean, feeds it ammo it likes, and in turn it runs like a fine watch. No FTF, FTE, or any other nonsense. Just shooting and Mark smiling. I can't hit the side of a barn with it. Good for him, bad for me. I've got beefs with the Glock design, but grip angle isn't a concrete one.

PressCheck
September 25, 2005, 03:22 PM
I shoot about 1,000 rounds a month thru my Glock 21. It points well, hits what I aim at, and I have NO felt recoil.

OBTW - I clean it regulary after 3 - 4 thousand rounds.

Bart Noir
September 25, 2005, 04:27 PM
Agree with CombatArmsUSAF and others, I have to drop the front sight from where it "naturally" points. But I think there may be an upside to the angle we speak of. I am not any sort of pro in anatomy, but it just seems to me that my lower arm and wrist are stretched a little more when aiming a Glock and that position just seems more stable, and more able to absorb the muzzle lift without much actual muzzle lift. Anybody else get that feeling?

Now, there is a better way of having exactly the same angle. This is the Steyr M9/M40 series. The front of the grip is exactly the same angle as on the Glock, but the contours of the whole grip and especially the back of it, make it feel less "nose high" upon presenting the gun for firing. There is still some of this "nose high" affect but not as much.

In the long run, my Glocks have been sold but I have 2 Steyrs.

Bart Noir

3rdpig
September 25, 2005, 11:33 PM
We're only talking a few degrees difference here. It's all about muscle memory. Whichever one you practice with the most will be the one that naturally lines up for you. I originally learned with a variety of semi autos, most had the 1911 type grip angle. I only started using Glocks a year ago and now when I point my High Power I find I'm pointing it downward a couple of degrees and have to bring the muzzle up. That's what practicing regularly for a year with Glocks did. That's why both my main defense weapon and my CCW weapon are now both Glocks. Since I believe that the Glock is the best gun for my needs I'm willing to put the time in at the range and at home to make them second nature to me. Spend the most time practicing with the guns you'll be needing the most.

Soap
September 25, 2005, 11:34 PM
Now Daniel, if you want to make sense don't expect anyone to listen. A nugget of truth like gaining proficiency will likely fall on deaf ears.

I know, the nerve of me :banghead: :p

CombatArmsUSAF
September 27, 2005, 07:24 AM
I am proficient in hand guns, pretty much anything I pick up I can keep in reasonable grouping at 15-20 meters. Being proficient isn't the problem. I was just merely commenting on the fact that Glock grip angles aren't right for me. WHy sould I retrain myself to shoot a glock when there is a plethra of guns that shoot and point well for me already?

PAX
Here's the thing that gets me: too many people find that a particular brand of gun doesn't point well for them, and then get online and post, "That brand of gun doesn't point well! It's got a lousy grip angle!"
This is not a hate thread for glocks, last time I checked this was a gun forum, a place to discuss your experiences with firearms.

From my original post:
Disclaimer I am not bashing the glock brand of firearms, I am simply stating that the grip angle is not for everyone, especially not me.
Try actually reading the post you are commenting on next time.

pax
September 27, 2005, 07:34 AM
CombatArmsUSAF ~

My post was a general comment, not directed at you personally nor at any one particular poster, which was why it had no header and no quote to begin it, and which was why it was carefully marked off with [rant] at the outset.

If the shoe doesn't fit, don't try to wear it.

pax

Janitor
September 27, 2005, 08:12 AM
I agree with Pax that because the Glock grip angle is wrong for me (it feels lousy) that it is wrong for everybody.
Ok. We'll assume you left a word or two out and really do agree with pax on this.

Myself ... I agree with pax also. Maybe with the exception that I think if a Glock feels natural to you, that you might be a mutant.

NOTE: :D

Brian Williams
September 27, 2005, 08:23 AM
I do not mind the grip angle, I shoot both my g19 and 1911 equally bad. My biggest beef with a Glock is the stinkin' finger grooves. They hit my ring finger weird. I would like to find a nice inexpensive G17 1st or 2nd gen someday, but after I get my BHP.

Janitor
September 27, 2005, 08:25 AM
I shoot both my g19 and 1911 equally bad
:)

I like to point out that my golf game is unaffected by weather.

Soap
September 27, 2005, 08:31 AM
I am proficient in hand guns, pretty much anything I pick up I can keep in reasonable grouping at 15-20 meters. Being proficient isn't the problem. I was just merely commenting on the fact that Glock grip angles aren't right for me. WHy sould I retrain myself to shoot a glock when there is a plethra of guns that shoot and point well for me already?

You are not proficient with it nor do you want to be. You stated earlier:

One of things that concerns me about the Glock 22 is the fact that when I bring the weapon up to the target I am looking at about 1"-1.5" gap in between the rear sight and the front sight. Now I understand that I can train myself to bring it on target naturally, but when I have firearms available to me like any number of my berettas or xds that naturally, due to a more ergonomically suitable grip, can be easily brought onto target I don't see the point.

If you can't bring the gun to bear with sight alignment naturally, you are not proficient with that particular platform. The summary of this paragraph is that Glocks have a different grip angle that throws you off and that you don't want to take the time to learn it. So you are obviously not proficient with pretty much anything you pick up. Which is fine, because nobody is good with everything out there. But let's not kid ourselves that it is somehow the gun's fault or that we're good with everything we pick up within the first five minutes.

CombatArmsUSAF
September 27, 2005, 09:35 AM
I meant that after adjustment I can shoot them fairly well, not that I am an all around gun guru. Obviously no one can be 100 percent proficient with every gun on the market. I should have been more detailed in my definition.

Island Beretta
September 27, 2005, 03:02 PM
lets not quarrel :p it is not necessarily a training issue, my G19 points on target but I have to remember to keep that wrist locked up otherwise it points high..prolong firing with my G19 pains my hand, unlike with the Beretta...

cant (wont) change my hand, so change the gun.. :evil:

Inner Monkey
September 27, 2005, 08:01 PM
Thank God there are so many choices. Glocks work great for me but not for others.

gunfan
September 27, 2005, 08:16 PM
so many people are having "issues" with their Glocks and my Model 20 (10mm) ticks right along as if it were a Timex watch?! :o :confused:

It doesn't make any sense! :banghead: :scrutiny:

Scott

HSMITH
September 27, 2005, 09:20 PM
I have shot about 50K rounds through Glocks, 9mm and 40. I have many hundreds of thousands of rounds through 1911's in 45. I have a couple hundred thousand rounds through many other platforms when combined. I just don't have a problem switching platforms, not even ripping off a couple shots with one and picking up another to shoot another quick pair. Somehow my hand knows what it picks up, tells my brain and together they do what needs to be done. The front sight is in place in about the same time regardless of what I am shooting. One thing I cannot do is point shoot or hip shoot as well when switching. The platform I am most familiar with, namely the 1911, is what I hip shoot the best. Hip shooting isn't a promising technique, so I don't put much stock in it.

One thing I have noticed, switching between my S&W revolvers and Glocks is absolutely seamless. From closer examination it seems the grip index and angle is identical between them.

I think it really is a familiarity issue, and that given a couple thousand rounds anything will feel 'natural' and work well.

ChuckB
September 27, 2005, 09:21 PM
(so many people are having "issues" with their Glocks)..........

And so many people have no issues with their Glocks. As has been stated, ad nauseum, if it works for you, it's good; if another gun works better for you, that's also good. I shoot pretty well with a 1911, a G19, and a S&W 66. I'm happy.

Chuck

wanderinwalker
September 27, 2005, 09:37 PM
When I was shooting lots with my father's 1911, going back to my Glock 17 seemed strange. Now that I mostly shoot a S&W 629 .44 Magnum, the Glock actually points just fine, every time, and continues to amaze me at how well I can use it. Last week was the first time I had taken the Glock to the range in months, and it just felt natural (and ran like a top if you'll allow me to discount one reload that somehow snuck by the eyeball check while being stuffed into a mag). 200 rounds, only the one hiccup, and I was center-punching things better than I do with the revolver, which I had been shooting considerably more this year.

Rob96
September 28, 2005, 04:45 AM
I have no problem switching between my G19 and my Colt 1911. But when you compare the grip of the G19 to the G17, it is different. The G17 doesn't point right for me.

Colt
September 28, 2005, 04:32 PM
People are all different. That's why they make different guns.

Bingo. Gun shops have multiple display cases and wall racks for the same reason candy stores have different bins.

I'd like one of each flavor, please. :D

Island Beretta
September 28, 2005, 05:30 PM
Rob96:

In what way does the G17 fits you less than the G19?? for me the biggest problem with the G19 is that the grip hump pushes hard on the bottom of my hand; I dont have that problem with the G17 as the hump is lower so the G17 points better..

Rob96
September 28, 2005, 05:55 PM
See I actually like how the grip hump of the G19 sits into my hand. The grip hump of the 17, gives the gun an unnatural point for me. Just like I like my full sized 1911's with a flat mainspring housing versus the arched housing.

Pistol Toter
September 28, 2005, 06:33 PM
I have none of the problems listed here. I draw my gen. 3 - G21 looking at the target bring the gun up and I have three dots in perfect alignment sitting on the target. Weaver stance, two hand grip, no muss, no fuss, no recoil (very little), quick follow ups, drills the center right out of the target. No hickups, no burps, no collic. She's a great baby.

3rdpig
September 28, 2005, 07:58 PM
This has to be one of the silliest threads I've read here in a while. If you prefer the 1911 grip angle no one is suggesting that you retrain yourself to like the Glock grip angle if you don't want to. But since you posted it in a public forum we thought you wanted to shoot the Glock better and wanted some input on the subject. Now we realize that you just wanted to rant and whine. No problem, go ahead. I'll just move on to a different thread.

middy
September 29, 2005, 03:53 PM
I have shot several Ruger MkIIs over the years. Since I just got seriously involved in shooting over the past two years I never really knew what I was looking for in a gun until recently. Now the other day my boss brought his Ruger MkII into work, which gave me the opportunity to do a serious review of Ruger MkII firearms and if I would be buying one in the future. One of things that concerns me about the Ruger MkII is the fact that when I bring the weapon up to the target I am looking at about 1"-1.5" gap in between the rear sight and the front sight. Now I understand that I can train myself to bring it on target naturally, but when I have firearms available to me like any number of my berettas or xds that naturally, due to a more ergonomically suitable grip, can be easily brought onto target I don't see the point. The pointability of the Ruger MkII is similar to that of a revolver which is why I don't shoot wheel guns. Having to train for this, in my mind, is a unnecassary step, and one that unless practiced a whole hell of a lot could be forgotten in stressful situation causing you to take a half a second longer coming on target. We all know what that can end up meaning.

Disclaimer I am not bashing Ruger MkII firearms, I am simply stating that the grip angle is not for everyone, especially not me.

:neener:

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/images/Products/93L.gif

markinho
September 29, 2005, 06:21 PM
I happen to think that this is an interesting thread, but I think that the "pointability" term is a little too broad and think that what's at stake here is more the subjective, personal opinion of the typical Glock model's overall grip and backstrap angle compared to other autoloaders.

It seems as if the Glock's grip/backstrap angle is more aggressively (steeply) raked than the tried-and-true (shallower and more familiar) 1911 angle. It is human nature to feel more comfortable and confident with tools that familiar in shape and function. That's why initial period driving a rental car--even one nicer than the vehicle you may own--is so disconcerting.

Incidentally, I happen to have a Ruger Mark III and am very happy with it. It is my only pistol and I bought it with the intent of using it to hone my shooting skills while I decide which larger caliber handgun to purchase. I am very comfortable with the Ruger Mark III's "pointability." The grip angle is comfortable and when I bring it up to the target I don't find myself under- or over-compensating. Shooting is a fine motor skill and involves lots of muscle memory--much like golf or martial arts does.

I was initially interested in getting a Glock 17 as my 9mm jack-of-all trades home defense/range and potential IPSC pistol. Why? Because the Glock 17 is to duty pistols what the Ruger Mark I-II-II line is to .22LR target pistols. Are there better options? Yes, but that's not the question. The question is, "What are you most familiar shooting and what are you willing to do to refamiliarize yourself with a gun (tool) that may require an inital adjustment period (taking a step back) before you can use it to its potential (take a step forward)."

Then I heard about the Springfield XD line and handled one in my local shop. It was very comfortable in my hand PLUS it seemed to offer a number of functional upgrades over the rather spartan Glock. Previously, I had not marked much range time with any Glocks--maybe just 50 rounds with a G19--younger sibling of the Glock 17. So, in other words, it's not like I was used to the "unusual" Glock ergonomics. But when I did some dry-fire, practice aiming with the XD, I felt like the grip was too upright and shallow, almost like I was aiming with the grip and stock at a right angle. I didn't like the three-dot sights either, but I felt disoriented just aiming the XD at objects against the wall.

Next when I did some practice with an XD-9 my shots were all over the place, big time. :uhoh: I double-checked on a G19 right after the XD-9 using the same box of range ammunition (and I am an mediocre to average shot, at best) and my accuracy and grouping was WAY better. Ironically, I felt a little sad because I really thought that the XD-9 was going to be a better shot FOR ME.

Now, I'm not knocking the XD-9. I really like the XD line and think that it gives Glock a run for its money at a lower price with more features. I don't know much--but here's what I do know: I could care less what a gun looks like, I may not be a very good shot compared to some out there, and I don't have much money to spend, bit I sure-as-hell know that the most important factor in buying a quality tool (handgun) is getting one that you feel comfortable and confident using. For some its the Glock and for some its another handgun.

I am going to give the XD and others another chance. But for me, I happen to be one of those dudes who thinks that Glock did something right with their designs "pointability."

Now, if someone can quantify "pointability" a little bit better, they can't do any worse than I did! :D

If you enjoyed reading about "Glock Pointability" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!