.380 P+ ?


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Woody_in_MN
September 24, 2005, 01:58 PM
Does anyone make a P+ load for .380 ?

- w

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dolanp
September 24, 2005, 02:16 PM
CorBon sells one but IIRC there really is no such thing as a standard +P in .380 it's just a marketing thing.

Bopleo
September 24, 2005, 02:19 PM
First off its +P, and second No there is no +P .380, if there was it would be called 9mm.

I think the hirt, and santa barbara .380 is supposed to be some hot 380.

try Southern Ohio guns in your search engine.

MICHAEL T
September 24, 2005, 04:26 PM
Corbon no longer has +P on their 380 line boxs. That was a mistake and if you have any is older ammo. The Corbon today is same in performace as the old rounds marked +P They give 90gr HP at 1050fps and 220 ft lbs engery from a PPK/S. Their is no +P in 380. The new DPX is coming and already a short test on board by none other than S.A. Camp

Car Knocker
September 24, 2005, 05:51 PM
No there is no +P .380, if there was it would be called 9mm.

Would you mind explaining that statement?

JohnKSa
September 24, 2005, 09:19 PM
.380 is just about the hottest cartridge that will work safely in a straight blowback gun. You can get a bit more power in a small straight blowback gun, but if you go higher, you're going to run into problems.

All that to say, if you want more power than the .380 provides, you need to step up to 9mm Luger. Trying to find significantly hotter .380ACP ammo than normal and finding it from a reputable source will be a fruitless task. Reloading it significantly hotter is not safe.

Bopleo
September 24, 2005, 09:19 PM
Car Knocker,
The .380, called 9mm kurtz, which in German means short, is the same bullet as the 9mm parabellum, which in German means for war.
The difference between these two is they both use essentially the same bullet but one (the 9mm) is a full charge load, larger case, and the other (the.380) is a shorter case, and a lesser or thereabouts powder charge.

greg531mi
September 24, 2005, 09:47 PM
The 380, a old caliber, is loaded down by Sporting Ammo Manufacturer's Association. Too many old and cheaply made guns, from the turn of the century, to the pot metal types of the 80's....At around 17,000 CUP's, it is reduced because of that, while the 9mm is around 32,000 cup's! That is the main reason why the 380 is slower than the 9mm. A well made 380 will take more pressure, but why risk it for a couple more feet per second?

JohnKSa
September 24, 2005, 11:02 PM
.38ACP (9mm Corto, 9mm Kurz, 9x17mm) is old, but it's newer than the 9mm Luger by a few years. The SAAMI pressure spec for the .380ACP is 21,500psi.

Its lower pressure reflects the design of the firearms (straight blowback) manufactured for the cartridge, rather than their quality or age.

The 9mm Luger and the .380 ACP do use the same diameter bullet, but the 9mm Luger most commonly uses 115-147gr bullets while the .380ACP is usually loaded with 90-100 grain bullets.

Car Knocker
September 24, 2005, 11:06 PM
Bopleo,

I know the history of the .380. But a .380 +P wouldn't be a 9mm any more than a .38 Special +P is a .357 Magnum or a .44 Special +P is a .44 Magnum. That there isn't a current SAAMI spec for a .380 +P doesn't alter that fact. The difference between the pressures in a "regular" loading and a +P loading are insufficient to move a load into the next higher class of cartridge. A +P+ load may well be skirting that move up.

JohnKSa
September 24, 2005, 11:14 PM
The point is that there is no such thing as .380ACP +P because it's not feasible. If you want more performance you're going to have to move up in caliber. The next significant step up is 9mm Luger.

And, if you want to split hairs, the FIRST .357Magnum WAS a hot-loaded .38spl just as the first.44Magnum was a hot-loaded .44 Special. The cartridge cases were lengthened not to provide extra performance, but in order to prevent them from being chambered in older, weaker guns.

Borachon
September 25, 2005, 12:37 PM
Yes they do make a .380 +P.


It's called a Makarov 9x18 cartridge. ;)


The Makarov cartridge is actually about highest type cartridge that can still be fired in a straight blowback gun.

Bopleo
September 25, 2005, 01:09 PM
JohnKSa understood carknocker.

My comment was never meant to be a technical evaluation of the .380.

You asked, i answered. I guess you had to look it up to be 100% right, who cares anyway.

MICHAEL T
September 25, 2005, 02:23 PM
Their have been 9mm blow backs made. But not to many. They seem to kick a little

gunfan
September 25, 2005, 05:58 PM
Mike McNett of Double Tap Ammunition will be introducing a high-performance version of the .380 ACP cartridge that will eclipse the 9 X 18 Makarov in performance and cost about the same as other premium ammunition.

Call mike @ 1-866-357-1066 tomorrow during business hours (Mountain Time) for more information.

Scott

Dr.Rob
September 26, 2005, 02:40 PM
Astra's 400 is a blow-back in 9mm Bergman/Bayard (hotter than a 9mm) and it's a blowback.

I want one.

As for 380 +p... don't believe the hype. It's hard enough to get a .380 near 1000 fps with a 90 gr bullet. Federal Hydrashocks are one of the best hollowpoints in .380 available, but many beleive an FMJ is a better bullet.

Borachon
September 28, 2005, 12:11 AM
.380 ACP cartridge that will eclipse the 9 X 18 Makarov in performance and cost about the same as other premium ammunition.

How much of an eclipse? A total eclipse where it goes twice as fast as a 9x18...or a partial eclipse where it only goes 200fps faster than the fastest current .380?

Also....strictly speaking....a 9x18 Mak isn't really a 9mm. It's a 9.2mm. The .380 is actually closer to the standard concept of a 9mm. So the Mak is going to have a wider hole before the bullet is even fired compared to the .380.

If the new .380 bullet isn't moving 1200fps then there are already some Mak rounds that have achieved 1150 or so. And the Mak rounds frequently will have 115 grain bullets traveling at 1050fps. So I'm wondering just how much more effective a .380 can be than a 9x18 Makarov.

And finally, defensive ammo for Makarovs is hideously cheap. 115gr ammo can cost as low as 5 or 6 dollars a box. You can practice with the same ammo you use for carry purposes.

greg531mi
September 28, 2005, 07:50 PM
Its lower pressure reflects the design of the firearms (straight blowback) manufactured for the cartridge, rather than their quality or age.

Not all 380's are blowback. Colt 380's are a locking action. A steel Mustang could handle a lot more pressure than the old blowback and potmetal versions of the 80's..... Blowback firearms, in itself, have a narrow pressure band for the action to work right. Not that they are weak. Some are very strong, and can take a lot more pressure, but will not cycle right.
Sammi was created by the ammo companies because of lawsuits, and they are conservative because of it......

JohnKSa
September 28, 2005, 10:20 PM
Not all 380's are blowback. Colt 380's are a locking action.Yup, I've got two of them!

However, they are the exception--and by a long shot. The typical .380 is a straight blowback, and that's where the design limits come into play.Some are very strong, and can take a lot more pressure, but will not cycle right.Yeah, I guess you can say it that way--as long as you make it clear that "not cycling right" includes early opening which can cause case ruptures.

MachIVshooter
September 28, 2005, 11:06 PM
The .380, called 9mm kurtz, which in German means short, is the same bullet as the 9mm parabellum, which in German means for war.

Since the English version of parabellum is parable, which is a story, event, etc. from which a moral lesson is learned it would stand to reason that the parabellum moniker was derived to describe the 9x19 as a "lesson teacher", more or less. This word is very similar in any Latin-based/Germanic language.

The German word for war is Krieg.

As to the original question, it has been pretty well answered. There are a few .380 pistols that can take higher pressures (Beretta 84/85, Walther, etc.) But SAAMI specs are set to avoid blowing up Jennings and other junk guns. I have acheived 1128 FPS average from my 84 FS with 90 gr. Gold dots, mind you it has a 4" tube. I haven't chrono'ed these loads out of my P3AT.

JohnKSa
September 29, 2005, 12:49 AM
Not much latin education here, but I thought the normal translation of "parabellum" was more along the lines of "for war" or "prepared for war" :confused:

faustulus
September 29, 2005, 01:21 AM
Since the English version of parabellum is parable, which is a story, event, etc. from which a moral lesson is learned it would stand to reason that the parabellum moniker was derived to describe the 9x19 as a "lesson teacher", more or less. This word is very similar in any Latin-based/Germanic language.
uh no.
Latin 101
para = for
bellum = war
parable is from the greek parabol meaning to compare
and while both Latin and German are indo-european languages, they are about as far from one another has you can get.
(English is a germanic language, Spanish is a romance -- latin-base -- language.)

Borachon
September 29, 2005, 01:22 AM
Parabellum does mean "for war". But I think it's Latin...perhaps Spanish or French...not really sure.

I suppose the German who designed the cartridge was something of a educated man. Rolls off the tongue better than ParaKrieg anyway.

Wilson 17&26
October 7, 2005, 02:48 PM
MachIVshooter, Iíve put over 700 rounds of 87gr Semi-jacketed flat tip Santa Barbara through my Kel-Tec P-3ATs. Should you ever chrono that ammo from your P-3AT, I would sure appreciate a post. Itís the cheapest .380 ammo I have found at less than ten cents a round delivered to my door. I do confess to using only magazines with a finger extension when I shoot it.
Thanks,
Wilson

Bobo
October 7, 2005, 06:45 PM
Wilson 17&26,
How do the recoil springs hold up? Have you had to replace them?

Wilson 17&26
October 8, 2005, 09:39 AM
Bobo, it may be my imagination but the springs seem to be a bit weak after several hundred rounds of Santa Barbara (slide is very easy to rack), so I installed new recoil springs every couple of hundred rounds. Every time I place a parts order for accessories or parts with Kel-Tec (I have more than a dozen KT pistols) I always include a sets of P-3AT recoil springs. As long as I include them with another order they are very inexpensive at only a $1 per set. Kel-Tec claims their springs have a half-life of 5,000 rounds but I doubt they considered Santa Barbara. I also believe stronger recoil springs help protect my magazine followers from battering, as all of my First-Generation P-3ATs have the straight-line barrel feed ramp. All of my Second-Generation P-3ATs have the crescent shaped barrel feed ramps, which will probably let them get by with weaker springs. I love that SB Ammo but I do recommend finger extension (see below) when shooting it :)

http://www.wilson-genealogy.com/pics/sghcb-fghcgs.jpg (http://www.wilson-genealogy.com/pics/sghcb-fghcg.jpg)

Newton
October 8, 2005, 10:48 AM
.380 is just about the hottest cartridge that will work safely in a straight blowback gun

Someone should tell Hi Point that their .40S&W blowback is dangerous ;)

Kurush
October 8, 2005, 02:28 PM
You guys are still wrong, there is no word for "for" in latin, you just put the noun in the dative case. But in latin "prepare" (parare) doesn't need a preposition anyway so you just say "prepare war". Para is the singular imperative of parare, "to prepare", and "bellum" is the accusative form of "bellum" meaning war.

Si (if) vis (you wish) pacem (peace (acc.)), para (prepare (sing imp)) bellum (war (acc.))

I knew all that latin would come in useful someday :neener:

Bobo
October 8, 2005, 03:33 PM
Thanks Wilson 17&26,

I'll order some extra springs for "backup".

I just bought this SG P-3AT from a local dealer - NIB Parkerized $280. Haven't shot it yet, but I'd like to use rounds with as much "punch" as possible for SD. I've added the Bersa finger extension and a Pachmayr Slip-on grip.

I'm thinking Santa Barbara for FMJ.

I understand Double-Tap is coming out with a .380 version soon. I'd like to try those for JHP. Or maybe the Cor-Bon DPX, they are due soon also.

These rounds should all be close to what a .380+P would be.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a34/r_oremland/Self-Defense/05PA070020web.jpg

JohnKSa
October 8, 2005, 09:12 PM
Someone should tell Hi Point that their .40S&W blowback is dangerousLet me rephrase. .380ACP is about the hottest cartridge that will work safely in a straight blowback gun that doesn't have an oversized, overweight slide with very stiff recoil springs.

You can make a straight blowback .44Mag if you don't mind the handgun weighing 10 lbs.

M2 Carbine
October 9, 2005, 05:34 PM
Since the Makarov normally shoots rounds in the 115 grain bullet range at 1,000+fps the .380 Makarov would easily handle a hot .380 round if they were available but as far as I know there aren't any .380 +P commercial rounds.

mp510
April 13, 2006, 09:40 PM
Extreme Shock made a .380 round that they claimed could take a Russian Boar with 1 shot.

BTW, Bopleo Car Knocker,
The .380, called 9mm kurtz, which in German means short, is the same bullet as the 9mm parabellum, which in German means for war.
The difference between these two is they both use essentially the same bullet but one (the 9mm) is a full charge load, larger case, and the other (the.380) is a shorter case, and a lesser or thereabouts powder charge.
the bullet loaded into a .380 FMJ is 20 grains less than the common 115 9x19mm FMJ. There is even greater desparity between the .380 and 9mm NATO (124) and subsonic (147). The 9 luger is 2mm longer on the case. Also, Parabellum was trademarked by DWM (Deutsche Waffen und Municionen Fabrik), and was from the Latin not German. Krieg is the German term for war.

RFM
April 14, 2006, 10:46 PM
If I was gonna carry a .380, I would probably
load it with corbon and magsafe rounds.

Soybomb
April 14, 2006, 11:31 PM
Extreme Shock made a .380 round that they claimed could take a Russian Boar with 1 shot.
Extreme shock probably claims they could take all of russia with 1 shot. :evil:

Walt Sherrill
April 15, 2006, 08:22 AM
From a Luger website:

"Parabellum name comes from ancient Latin saying Si vis Pacem, Para bellum - if you want Peace, prepare for War."

So parabellum does mean "prepare for war" but the definition was taken out of context...

MCgunner
April 15, 2006, 11:19 AM
As someone posted, most .380s are blowbacks and that severely limits working pressure. Some, like the P3AT are locked breech guns and a handloader might get a few more FPS out of 'em with stronger springs and such, but .380 brass is not made to contain 9mm Luger pressures. You risk a blow out if you try to get there with any .380, locked breach or not.

My own handloads exit my Grendel P12 at around 200 ft lbs. I won't go any hotter than that. I've found that at about 220 ft lbs in that gun, a blowback, I start getting significant case swelling into the feed ramp, a sure sign of excessive pressure. A locked breach with a little more spring in it might contain that level of performance, but it ain't worth the hassles IMHO. the .380, for me, will forever be a minimal, carried only because I can't carry my 9 or .38 due to concealment concerns, cartridge for me. If you want more power, buy another gun in 9mm. Some of 'em are as small or smaller than some of the .380s available. Never try to make a magnum out of a .38.

MCgunner
April 15, 2006, 11:21 AM
Quote:
Extreme Shock made a .380 round that they claimed could take a Russian Boar with 1 shot.

Extreme shock probably claims they could take all of russia with 1 shot.

Extreme shock is what the shooter feels when that boar gets POed and starts his attack. :rolleyes:

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