Help me out on a .308 AR....


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lysander
September 24, 2005, 03:16 PM
Esteemed readers, fellow board members, AK-ophiles, AR junkies, lend me your eyes and your insight.

Here is the scoop. I am seeking an EBR. I recently handled one of the 16" AP4 Carbines by DPMS and found it an extremely well put together piece of hardware. :D Does anyone here have experience with these rifles? My preference is a "tweener" rifle. (Think an MBR caliber in a compact package)Please comment...

I am looking for feedback, accuracy testimonials, explanation of feeding problems (if any), gas system trouble, tolerance for and performance with surplus ammo, etc. I am not looking for a case in favor of firearm X, :rolleyes: or a diatribe about the AR series pooping in its own mouth, etc. :barf: Just give me some anecdotal evidence of your experience with an AP4 or similiar.

I like the AR ergos and I like the round. I have a service background and found the AR a good shooter, however I am a big fat kid...so I like to shoot big fat bullets...I figure that the AP4 is a solid, capable and hard-hitting carbine. Compact and handy, yet still good out to 500 yards or so. What say you? :confused:

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idakfan
September 24, 2005, 06:40 PM
I would have to state the problem that I see with the DPMS .308 and VEPR .308 is the proprietary mags. They're not combat proven.

BUT! If you're looking just for a fun gun then go ahead.

From what I've heard the Bushmaster .308 might be comming out next year with improvements and evil features. It takes FAL mags... Mabye something to wait for?

You could always pick up a DSA FAL now and when the new-and-improved Bushy .308 is released you'll have plenty of mags and ammo?

Chris Rhines
September 24, 2005, 06:43 PM
Not combat proven? The DPMS uses Knight's SR-25 magazines. That's about as combat proven as you can get.

The DPMS-manufactured 20-round magazines are much cheaper than the SR-25 mags, and they work just as well. The 10-round plastic magazines are worthless trash.

Check the rifle for proper gas block alignment - I've seen a couple with canted gas blocks.

- Chris

idakfan
September 24, 2005, 07:02 PM
Chris - Thanks for correcting my inaccuracy. My fault for publishing hear-say.

Sunray
September 25, 2005, 12:01 AM
Have a look at the AR-10. Don't ask me if they're any good though. Not exactly light weight either. The only AR-10's I've played with were semi'd original rifles. http://www.mts.net/~jhipwell/eagle.htm
An 18" or 16" barrel on a .308 is too short. The muzzle blast would be unreal.

226
September 25, 2005, 02:20 AM
I was in the market for a .308 / 7.62 X 51mm MBR and after extensive research I have an M1A/M14 being built. Check these out.

battlerifles.com (http://battlerifles.ambackforum.com/index.php?sid=b80f0457ed5bab2f57d2e88ff53c549b)

m14.com (http://www.m-14forum.com/index.php?)

riflecompany.com (http://www.rifle-company.com/phpbb/)

warrifles.com (http://www.warrifles.com/forums/index.php?)

355sigfan
September 25, 2005, 04:53 AM
I don't care for DPMS guns. My last department issued M4's from DPMS and they had issues with quality control. 2 of the 10 guns had to be taken off line and I had to send 1 back I fixed the other. The rest run but not as well as my Colt. I have an Armalite AR10 with 2 uppers a GA Precision 20 inch gun set up for long range shooting and a 16 inch A4 upper set up as a medium range carbine. Both work ok for me. However Armalite has had its issues too. But in fairness they have had more time to work the bugs out of their 308 rifles than DPMS has. Bushy is another choice that offers cheaper mags.
Pat

355sigfan
September 25, 2005, 04:54 AM
Have a look at the AR-10. Don't ask me if they're any good though. Not exactly light weight either. The only AR-10's I've played with were semi'd original rifles. http://www.mts.net/~jhipwell/eagle.htm
An 18" or 16" barrel on a .308 is too short. The muzzle blast would be unreal.

END QUOTE

I disagree its no problem on my 16 inch AR with a flash hidder.
Pat

lysander
September 25, 2005, 10:39 AM
I have fired a few thousand rounds downrange through both a DSA Fal and a Springfield M1A. I have ready access to a NM M1A with optics and just sold a DSA gun. Both rifles are/were excellent, but not what I would call handy. Beyond that the $$$$ that is charged for a Para style FAL is about 1.5 times what the DPMS guns go for. If I go the FAL route I lose some of the flexibility that comes with the AR platform. (I am a lefty so having ambi controls is helpful) That's why I am seeking info from people who have shot, handled or own the AP4 series of .308 carbines. I'll even take stories from Armalite or Bushmaster .308 shooters (though the price gets a little high for me)

I like most everything about AR series rifles...they do certain things better than FALs and M1As (Optic mounting, tacticool accessories, flexibility, ergos, etc.) and other things worse. What I am lacking is first hand experience with a .308 AR series rifle. I got plenty of experience with the AR-10s baby brother in the service....I just wanna see what baby brother is like after some Rafael Palmero juice.

Also...anyone that can share their experience pushing .308 rounds out of 16" or 18" barrels would be a plus as well.

hartzpad
September 25, 2005, 01:01 PM
My new DPMS AP4 .308 16" barrel:

Added a Vortex flash surpressor meant for Remington .308's, an M4 recoil pad, a Hogue pistol grip and drilled and mounted the sling swivel to mount my Harris bipod. Now I just need to find time to really shoot it and break it in.

Sorry for the dark pics, will get better ones sometime

http://home.comcast.net/~hartzpad/CIMG0419.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~hartzpad/CIMG0420.JPG

RomanKnight
September 25, 2005, 04:57 PM
"Also...anyone that can share their experience pushing .308 rounds out of 16" or 18" barrels would be a plus as well."
Well, I have a M1A Scout with a 18.5in bush barrel, topped w/ Smith Vortex .
A little bit more recoil than 223 -duh, but no big deal. One area you will notice a difference is NO Rapid double-tap shots! If that's your SOP on your 223 AR, I don't think it will work as advertized w/ a 308 16in barrel. Also, if you buy a 308 16in barrel, get a Vortex -it's a must for any night shooting!
AFAIK, DPMS makes a 18in version, with a heavier barrel. You might wanna look into that, it gives you two extra very important 2in of barrel (read muzle velocity +energy +effect on target).

355sigfan
September 25, 2005, 06:43 PM
Actually I can notice a difference in recoil in double taps. The 223 holds the controlability edge and is my first choice in cqb situations. Try this drill with a 223 and a 308. From 5 yards in the guard position (gun shouldered buy pointed down approximately 45 degrees its a ready position) at the sound of the buzzer fire two rounds to the chest on a ISPC Brussels target and 1 round to the head in 1.5 seconds. Its damn hard with the 223 with the 308 its impossible at least for everyone I have seen try it. This is a stage in our SWAT qualification.
Pat

RomanKnight
September 25, 2005, 07:06 PM
That's what I wanted to say: there's a BIG difference in follow-up shots! :o No easy&fast double-taps w/ 308. It's (much) easier with 223, vs. 308. A short (16in) 308 will have more recoil than a 18in, which in turn will recoil more than a 22in, and so on, and all will have more recoil than a 223.

355sigfan
September 25, 2005, 07:48 PM
Sorry I misunderstood your post.
Pat

Mr. Chitlin
September 25, 2005, 08:14 PM
The only AR platform rifle in 308 I have shot has been the 20" AR10A4B that I own. It has a 20" barrel, flat top. I had some extraction issues at first, but it has since been taken care of. I shoot factory ammo, reloads and surplus Aussie and Port ammo through it without any problems. The ammo that I hunt with is a 165 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet. It will shoot sub MOA at 100 yards, which is all our range goes to. I got it because I was familiar with the AR platform, and wanted a like rifle. The Armalite has been a good rifle for me.

As for 16 vs 20 inch, a couple of friends have the 16" model AR10's. All 3 were bought during the ban, so all 3 had the "recoil check" muzzle brake as Armalite calls it. I will say that the 16" guns have LOTS more muzzle blast. There is no comparison to the 20" rifle. I wouldn't beleive it if I wasn't witness to it. One of these days I am going to find a gunsmith that can remove the recoil check and thread the barrel so I can install a flash suppressor.

Here's mine...
http://photos.imageevent.com/brobert/ar15/websize/ar10.jpg

The recoil check...
http://photos.imageevent.com/brobert/ar15/websize/ar10_2.jpg

Another pic...
http://photos.imageevent.com/brobert/ar15/websize/ar10_1.jpg

demusn1979
September 25, 2005, 08:28 PM
20"a2 armalite

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/demusn79/th_IM000401.jpg (http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/demusn79/IM000401.jpg)


plan on getting the 16" flattop upper soon 750.00 from armalite.

The Grand Inquisitor
September 25, 2005, 08:33 PM
355Sigfan - you are the only person I have ever heard so down on DPS rifles and I would like to throw my hat in to defend their products.

Also, the proof that the SR25 is "combat reliable" is very limited at best because of its relitively recent adoption. I'm not sold on the SR-25 and I stand by the claim (which is made by a great deal of others) that a DMPS .308 will shoot along side the SR25 shot for shot for $5000 less.

355sigfan
September 25, 2005, 08:40 PM
Most of my disdain for DPMS comes from having to fix thier rifles at my previous department. I am starting a new department on the 5th and can only hope they issue Colts.
Pat

lysander
September 26, 2005, 10:11 PM
This is all excellent feedback! I appreciate what you guys have offered to this point. It seems the consensus is that the 16" is giving up a bit too much in terms of controllability and velocity. Maybe I should look to the 18"....perhaps getting a 20" and having it trimmed, or getting an 18" to start.

I've heard good things about the Armalite....I'm just not sure I can afford the extra $3-500 they cost.

NMshooter
September 27, 2005, 02:41 PM
Start with a 20" barrel and a collapsing stock.

A short stock helps make a full length rifle more manuverable.

MachIVshooter
September 27, 2005, 09:46 PM
I have an Armalite AR-10A2 carbine (16") with a zero magnification red dot. The sight is a more limiting factor in accuracy, though I have still been able to average less than 2 MOA (the dot is 4 MOA :barf: ). Controllability on rapid fire is fair, but far more difficult than with .223 or 7.62x39 rifles. I have had no problems with factory mags, once in a while it will hang on the last round from my modified 30 round G-3 mags. It's a bit heavy for the size, but lighter than FAL's or G-3's. I think it was $1400 well spent.

lysander
October 3, 2005, 11:17 PM
So in summary....

We don't have much of a consensus on the DPMS AP4 guns. Hartzpad...how does yours shoot?

Seems that 16" for .308 is less than popular.

Armalite gets the nod from most...

Thanks guys!

MaceWindu
October 3, 2005, 11:23 PM
One area you will notice a difference is NO Rapid double-tap shots!

Sure you can, it's called "practice"....

MW

No_Brakes23
October 4, 2005, 12:00 AM
My vote is for the Bushy that takes FAL mags. I plan on getting one as soon as Cali changes or I move.

For those that suggest the M1A as a good substitute, I understand that the "14" is the Cat's Ass, but if you want AR ergos, the Springfield just doesn't cut the mustard.

MaceWindu
October 4, 2005, 01:24 AM
I understand that the "14" is the Cat's Ass, but if you want AR ergos, the Springfield just doesn't cut the mustard.

AR is a great platform. I am just a "14" man.

Fulton 18 inch Bush:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/MaceWindu/FultonBush.jpg

MaceWindu

No_Brakes23
October 4, 2005, 02:17 AM
AR is a great platform. I am just a "14" man. And that sort of diversity is one small part of what makes our country great. :)

salty
October 4, 2005, 09:35 AM
Sounds as if you are going down the AR style road so the excellent M1A would be a distant second option and the FAL a third place. Out of the AR10,DPMS and BAR10 I recommend the BAR10 first and DPMS second (based on cost fasctor vs AR10). BAR10 is more money but you will make the difference up in low cost FAL mags over the Armalite AR10's (20 mags at $6 vs 20 mags at $25) and the BAR10 IMO is a well made piece of equipment.

TIMC
October 4, 2005, 12:43 PM
1+ for the BAR10, great rifle I love mine!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/timc/AR-10PIC2.jpg

lysander
October 4, 2005, 11:39 PM
The FAL magazine is a really nice feature as far as the Bushy goes.

TIMC - How does yours shoot?

lysander
October 4, 2005, 11:56 PM
Oh...and I may not have made it clear...but I already have access to a NM M1A with some fine optics. I am definitely looking for something in the AR pattern. Again any testimonials are welcome.

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