[TarpleyG]

Okay. I have been debating the war with this guy at work. He is not way left by any means. He is pro-gun to a degree but we disagree when it comes to this war. Today, I have this in my inbox. Help me find some holes in this since I am neither a poli-sci guy nor a historian. I am sure you all can come up with a great reply...

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VIETNAM 2 PREFLIGHT CHECK
1. Cabal of oldsters who won't listen to outside advice? Check.
2. No understanding of ethnicities of the many locals? Check.
3. Imposing country boundaries drawn in Europe, not by the locals? Check.
4. Unshakeable faith in our superior technology? Check.
5. France secretly hoping we fall on our asses? Check.
6. Russia secretly hoping we fall on our asses? Check.
7. China secretly hoping we fall on our asses? Check.
8. SecDef pushing a conflict the JCS never wanted? Check.
9. Fear we'll look bad if we back down now? Check.
10. Corrupt Texan in the WH? Check.
11. Land war in Asia? Check.
12. Right unhappy with outcome of previous war? Check.
13. Enemy easily moves in/out of neighboring countries? Check.
14. Soldiers about to be dosed with *our own* chemicals? Check.
15. Friendly fire problem ignored instead of solved? Check.
16. Anti-Americanism up sharply in Europe? Check.
17. B-52 bombers? Check.
18. Helicopters that clog up on the local dust? Check.
19. In-fighting among the branches of the military? Check.
20. Locals that cheer us by day, hate us by night? Check.
21. Local experts ignored? Check.
22. Local politicians ignored? Check.
23. Locals used to conflicts lasting longer than the USA has been a country? Check.
24. Against advice, Prez won't raise taxes to pay for war? Check.
25. Blue water navy ships operating in brown water? Check.
26. Use of nukes hinted at if things don't go our way? Check.
27. Unpopular war? Check.
VIETNAM 2 YOU ARE CLEARED TO TAXI

15 Shout Outs posted by Barney Gumble @ 11:24 PM Permanent Link


This is from http://mwowatchwatchwatchwatch.blogspot.com/

Everybody remembers this line:
And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country.
And yet they always forget the very next line:
My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.

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Thanks,
GT

[foghornl]

Take the word "secretly" out of 5,6,& 7.

[Jim March]

Heh. Very funny. But there's four major differences:

1) The Iraqis don't have any sort of real "ideology" to rally behind the way the NV did. Saddam doesn't have "ideology", he's got unvarnished thuggery.

2) There's no jungle to hide in :). The NV/VC did fairly well in urban combat in Hue but we still kicked 'em the hell out.

3) TECHNOLOGY. GPS. Night Vision. Basically tons 'o goodies. See also Gulf War 1. I mean, come on, America loses more "brave young men" at Sturgis some years crashin' Harleys at just ONE PARTY than we lost in the whole dang war. (Yes, I'm serious...500,000 drunk bikers are WAY more dangerous than the friggin' Iraqis.)

4) Ho Chi Min wasn't anywhere NEAR as psycho and hated as Saddamnedinhell. And ol' Ho was a competent military strategist. Saddam is a thug in field marshal drag, as one wit put it rather accurately. His idea of "strategy" is the threat of shooting the family of anybody captured alive :barf:.

[Blackhawk]

He is not way left by any means.Really...? :rolleyes:

[Master Blaster]

You might also ask him what kind of Bicycle or horse he rides to work and whether he owns anything made out of plastic, or if he owns anything that runs on electricity or heats his home with wood.

Saddam is a threat to the world oil supply, he proved it by attacking Kuwait, and if left alone he would have controlled all the oil in the middle east by now and have nuclear weapons as well. Not to mention the millions he would have killed in his conquests (and has killed already)

You might also point out to him that the Iraqi army is carrying chinese and russian weapons and that france and germany sold Iraq nuclear as well as chemical technology, and that they want the oil for themselves.

but I doubt any logical arguements backed up by FACTS will sway him.

[muddyboots]

24. Against advice, Prez won't raise taxes to pay for war? Check.

Not true. There was an income tax surcharge during the Vietnam War to pay for it.

[DRC]

Hello TarpleyG,

First the most obvious defense against all of this is that it's all opinion and no fact to back any of it up on its face. But lets look at it point by point for fun:

"VIETNAM 2 PREFLIGHT CHECK
1. Cabal of oldsters who won't listen to outside advice? Check."

What advice and what are "oldsters"? This scentence makes no sense and has no fact to support it. It is this persons opinion only and we all know about opinions don't we?

"2. No understanding of ethnicities of the many locals? Check."

Again speculation, since this person has no idea of what the current administration knows or doesn't know. They typically use this type of scenario so they can hear themselves talk. Ask your co-worker how much they know about the ethnicities of the many locals? Since they won't be able to answer their own statement how could you possibly think they know what anyone else knows regarding this?

"3. Imposing country boundaries drawn in Europe, not by the locals? Check."

The "locals" have been fighting over religious belief since time began so boundries have little or nothing to do with anything relelvant to the arguement. The regimes (which are no more representative of the "locals" than terrorists are of Islam) are not fighting over boundaries either; they are fighting over control of regions for strategic position (Imperialism)

4. Unshakeable faith in our superior technology? Check.

Our technology is superior to any other country, but as to unshakeable faith being put in it? Again we're back to specuation and not even a viable speculation at that.

"5. France secretly hoping we fall on our asses? Check."

This would be an equalizer for the French were it to happen. The French have never done anything with regard to defense or victory. They have been made irrelavent in the UN and I'm sure they do hope we fall on our butts, however they stand more to gain if we win and let them be a part of the rebuilding of Iraq and they know that.

"6. Russia secretly hoping we fall on our asses? Check."

"Secretly"??? Russia is neither for or against us presently. Right now they are working to keep trade relations open and foreign contracts alive to stabilize their countries economy. Similar to that of Turkey and dropping their base support of us in this fight. To simplify, these countries are bancrupt and stepping in will put even more strain on their already failing economy. They can't afford it, in short.

"7. China secretly hoping we fall on our asses? Check."

"Secretly" China hopes we implode upon ourselves and die a terrible death BUT if anything happens to the US their economy tanks and they go back to farming rice as a staple to keep their country alive (literally not hypothetically). China knows this which is why, although there are a lot of tensions between our countries, they don't try anything. If we reduced imports of Chinese goods of as little as 10% it would put them in a financial bind. Their financial stability depends on their exports and primarily to the US.

"8. SecDef pushing a conflict the JCS never wanted? Check."

Specualtion based on a lack of information and knowledge of the overall situation. All they have to do it a modicum of research and they will find the truths.

"9. Fear we'll look bad if we back down now? Check."

We already look bad as does the UN because we have backed down for some 15 years now. Backing down again wouldn't do anymore damage to our already damaged superpower status but more inaction would create greater problems for the near future.

"10. Corrupt Texan in the WH? Check."

This sounds more like a personal problem that the writer has with Texans which puts it right back into the realm of specualtion only. No fact, no supporting information just his/her "feelings" about the President.

"11. Land war in Asia? Check."

It's the Middle East not Asia per sey. They might want to check their geography. Is there unrest in Asia? Well, yes there is but when has there not been unrest in Asia? What they are referring to or making referrence to is Vietnam.

"12. Right unhappy with outcome of previous war? Check."

What previous war are they referring to? We've had several wars in the last 10 years that were taken on but not fully completed due to lack of funding and cuts in military spending. We weren't equipt to win these wars and unfortunately the intention was for presence and not victory (can you say "police action") Was the right unhappy about this? Yes and so were some on the Left as well so your co-workers point would be what?

"13. Enemy easily moves in/out of neighboring countries? Check."

Maybe, maybe not. This person has no information to back this up. They have no clue as to how easy it is to move back and forth between countries even when a war is not in play so how do they know how easy it is during a war? The answer: They don't.

"14. Soldiers about to be dosed with *our own* chemicals? Check."

Specualtion but based on some truth. Some of the cultures and chemical compounds came from the US but the reasons it was done was originally for vaccine purposes and medical study. Some things were also done through the US when we thought that Iraq would be an ally. Little did we know at the time that things would change.

"15. Friendly fire problem ignored instead of solved? Check."

Friendly fire has never been ignored but it happens in every war and on everyside not just ours. Ask your coworker how to fix the problem. They will have no clue because they don't even know why it occured in the first place. Also ask them how they would classify Iraqis killing Iraqis for trying to surrender to Coalition troops? "Friendly fire"? Speculation on your co-workers part again.

"16. Anti-Americanism up sharply in Europe? Check."

Actually it's down. The last polling showed 55% of the British polled are in support of the US in this action and the number is rising. Now as to Britians overall feeling toward the colonies? Who knows and that includes your co-worker.

"17. B-52 bombers? Check."

Seeing as how they are our bombers and they are very reliable and effective I would have to say "Check" as well :)

"18. Helicopters that clog up on the local dust? Check."

Everything clogs up in blowing sand including the oppositions equipment. So the point of this statement?

"19. In-fighting among the branches of the military? Check."

Where? Ask your co-worker where they got this information. But to be fair there is infighting in everything. There is in-fighting in your place of business too but does that mean that the job doesn't get done?

"20. Locals that cheer us by day, hate us by night? Check."

But it's not necessarily the same locals. Again specualtion, no substance.

"21. Local experts ignored? Check."

Local experts where? Who's being ignored? Where did this information come from? Who are this persons sources?

"22. Local politicians ignored? Check."

Who? What? Where?

"23. Locals used to conflicts lasting longer than the USA has been a country? Check."

And the point being? These are also people use to having to fight conflicts with relatively primitive weapons and with very little actual training. Their fighting stance has been predominantly defense not offense.

"24. Against advice, Prez won't raise taxes to pay for war? Check."

Pres doesn't need to raise taxes to pay for war. He has already changed a portion of his tax reduction plan to account for this and it has been passed. Not to mention if you want to pay for a war you don't raise taxes, you cut out excessive spending. Over spending creates deficits not under taxing. The best arguement I've found for this is that if you have $10.00 in necessary bills and $10.00 in your pocket you pay the bills. What typically happens in government is that if they have $10.00 in necessary bills and $10.00 in their pocket they use revolving credit to pay the $10.00 worth of bills and use the $10.00 in their pocket to buy $30.00 worth of stuff and put the other $20.00 on revolving credit as well which creates more debt.

"25. Blue water navy ships operating in brown water? Check."

And the color of the water has to do with....? :) The ships seem to be functioning just fine regardless of what color the water is.

"26. Use of nukes hinted at if things don't go our way? Check."

But things are going our way. And if things were to turn and we had no choice, Yes we would use them. Why? Because victory and liberation is the goal. Also there are long term effects of how this war is played out that include other countries perhaps willing to take on the US, UN or others as well, but that's a whole other story.

"27. Unpopular war? Check."

Well, since your co-worker is one person and thinks this is an unpopular war, then I'm one person and I think it's popular so I cancel him out in that regard. Therefore his point is moot. :)

"VIETNAM 2 YOU ARE CLEARED TO TAXI"

As I said they need to check their geography. The fighting is in Iraq not in Vietnam. I realize they are trying to equate this war to Vietnam but it's not Vietnam. Our objective in this war is to win using all necessary means. In Vietnam we didn't fully know what our objectives were because they changed daily. In Vietnam we were fighting militarily for political appeasement and had to be very careful as to what we did and where we went in which created problems with what the objectives were. It was a war of confusion and confusion does not make one very effective.

Just remember, most of this is merely speculation on your co-workers part so instead of you trying to prove them wrong make them prove themselves right to you. If they can, let us know and I can guarantee I can find just as much information to substantiate your claims as they can for theirs if they even can at all. They think they know and are only telling you what they think, not what they know.

Give em hell big 'un.

DRC

[JCOJR]

see tag line

[gburner]

This guy is a jerk of the first rate. You really didn't specify whether he's serious or not, but if he is his head is in a dark, tight hole and his brain is suffering from oxygen deprivation.

1. No comparison between LBJ and W. LBJ was a vulgar, conniving bastard who would sell his own mother to get his way. IMHO, W is guided by a moral compass. You may not like which way its pointed, but its there.

2. Though war in itself is never popular, the aims of this war are overwhelmingly popular in this country and gaining in same in countries previously against.

3. B-52s???...You're damn right. We've learned to bomb without a lot of the collateral damage...less than 200 Iraqi
civvies killed...many of them, IMHO,
killed by their own AAA falling to earth in populous areas. B-52 is prob. the best DOD dollars we ever spent on a weapons system. It gets it done.

4. Civvies who love us by day, hate us by night...Sunni Baathist minority holding the Shia majority hostage using the most brutal tactics possible. There will be a significant change once the Fedayeen and Repub guard are sent to hell.

5. Inter service rivalry and failure to get along....haven't seen it. NO military using combined arms moves with the speed and agilty that we have without seamless itergration and support between branches.

6. Locals not consulted...tell that to the Kurds in the north as well as the Shia who have managed to make their way to our lines. We are getting very important tactical information from them to assist in planning and implementation of fire support, attrition of the enemy,
preservation of infrastructure (read oil fields) and provision of emergency aid.

7. Blue water navy in brown water...
What is this guy, a fashion consultant?
Grey ships in the Red Sea...BFD. Carriers and their battle groups go where air cover and stand off precision bombing is needed.

8. Anti American feelings up in Europe.
To quote David Byrne, 'same as it ever was, same as it ever was.'. Same goes for all of the wanna be's hoping we fall on our asses. Effem!

9. and last...A majority of the senior officers involved have saddle time in Viet Nam, Panama, Grenada, Bosnia, Gulf War I. They are led by a Sec. of Defense who himself was a naval aviator, officer and previous Secretary of Defense, not some analytical schmuck who used to run GM (MacNamara) who believed everything could be broken down to
equations and numbers.

ANY comparisons to Viet Nam are ill concieved, without merit and betray a fundamental poverty of historical knowledge as well as current events.
Tell him to s--t in his hat. :evil:

[AJ Dual]

American press trying to report "the last war" and constantly confused? Check.

That means the DoD and Pentagon are in effect "fightint the next war" like they should? Check.

Saddam thinking he can fight another Somalia/Mogadishu? Check.

Saddam not realizing the major hole in that strategy is Mogadishu was essentialy a failure of will on the part of Clinton? Check.

Clinton not in the white house? Check. Check. Check! :D

[Coronach]

1. Watch US win the war handily.
2. Send him his email back and ask him for any new smart-alec(Baldwin) remarks, and ask him to explain in thesis form why his predictions fell through.

Living well, the best revenge.

In the interim, if so inclined, ask him to substantiate all of those points before you'll even consider them.

Mike

[jmbg29]

Coronach beat me to it. And with great wit at that!
smart-alec(Baldwin) :D

[TarpleyG]

Thanks everybody. There's some really good stuff here. I don't think he thought all this up on his own, just passing it along. He is a good friend and to date, this war is about all we have disagreed on. I'll compile a response based on the stuff here and be sure to give credit where credit is due. Maybe I'll even point him to THR.

GT

[Don Gwinn]

Can he tell the difference between B-52s carpet-bombing cities with millions of tons of dumb iron and B-52s launching GPS-guided cruise missiles (which have so far kept civilian casualties to almost-unbelievable minimums?)

Oh, I forgot--that would be technology. And if we want to avoid "Vietnam 2," it's essential that we avoid any reliance on technology.

[WilliamJ]

Corona and all the other military genius's here, do I need to point out that the war is not over till the last soldier comes home?

How Long Will The Occupation Last?

In fact, some officials at the Pentagon and State Department tell NEWSWEEK they hope to be able to withdraw US troops in as little as 30 to 90 days after President Saddam Hussein's ouster
--Colin Soloway and Suzanne Smalley, Newsweek

They sought to play down any suggestion the United States would engage in a lengthy military occupation of months or years, similar to U.S.occupation of Japan after World War II -- a concept that would likely trigger outrage in the region.

"That's not the idea here," said a White House official
--Steve Holland Reuters

a minimum of six months...While the Pentagon hopes the rudiments could be done in six months, most experts say it would take a minimum of two years.
--Johanna McGeary, Time

one Pentagon plan floated this month calling for putting Iraq under control of an American military governor, with U.S. military officers in charge of the major ministries for at least one year.
--Lance Gay Scripps Howard News Service

Most outside experts insist any Iraq occupation will be costly and messy, lasting a year at the very least. Among them is Scott Feil...
--Scott Feil, Ex. Dir. Ausa.org

more than 1 year
--James Fallows, Atlantic Monthly

the State Department, Marc Grossman, said he would guess "two years."
--Jonathan Wright Reuters

...estimated before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee this month that the entire process of reconstruction would take two years.
--Undersecretary of State Marc Grossman

The Bush Administration has announced plans to occupy Iraq for at least two years, but possibly longer
--Mr Bush's former Middle East envoy, Anthony Zinni

...testified to the Armed Services Committee that several hundred thousand soldiers would have to stay in Iraq at least two years.
--General Erik K. Shineski

They will certainly leave Iraq. There is no point in their staying there. The occupation will last one and a half, two, or at the most three years..."
--Military Analyst Vladimir Slipchenko

I predict five years, after we secure a victory,” says Sen. Joseph Biden. D-Del.
--Sen. Joseph Biden. D-Del

"One former US ambassador quips there are two possible occupation scenarios. Plan One is an occupation that lasts for ten years. Plan Two is an occupation that is supposed to last for five years, but goes on for ten.
--David Corn, The Nation

The US occupation of Iraq under General Tommy Franks would be only "for an interim period ... not for a period of 10 years as some say", Perle said.
--Pentagon adviser Richard Perle

Iraq occupation will last for many years
--Tobin Smith, Foxnews.com

"We have to level with the American people that, in addition to everything else, we are talking about a long occupation of Iraq," she said.
--Rep. Nancy Pelosi, senior Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee

"we would have the will to stay for as long as necessary to do the job."
--Mr Bush's senior adviser on the Middle East, Zalmay Khalilzad

adding that he had "no idea" how long such a transitional period would last.
--Ahmad Chalabi, leader of the opposition Iraqi National Congress

30 to 50 years
--James Webb, Assistant Secretary of Defense and Secretary of the Navy in the Reagan Administration

"You would recoil in horror if you add up the numbers."
--US Army Center of Military History

full links at
http://mwowatchwatchwatchwatch.blogspot.com/2003_03_09_mwowatchwatchwatchwatch_archive.html#90747572

[MeekandMild]

2. No understanding of ethnicities of the many locals? So why are the Kurds and Bedouin either on our side or neutral?
10. Corrupt Texan in the WH? Can you back that assertion? He seems pretty solidly ethical by most normal measures. Would you let your daughter intern in the White House or not?
13. Enemy easily moves in/out of neighboring countries? Enemy center of power is in a semiarid area with long distance to borders. So are they using Star Trek matter transporters or are do the have a tunnel like the one under the English Channel?
15. Friendly fire problem ignored instead of solved? Untrue assertion. Friendly fire rate is extremly low compared to WW-I and WW-II, both of which were successful.
18. Helicopters that clog up on the local dust? Evidence to back assertion?
20. Locals that cheer us by day, hate us by night? Evidence?
21. Local experts ignored? Untrue.
22. Local politicians ignored? Untrue.
24. Against advice, Prez won't raise taxes to pay for war? Well I would hope not.
25. Blue water navy ships operating in brown water? Untrue.
26. Use of nukes hinted at if things don't go our way? As we have in WWII and Desert Storm, both of which achieved goals.
27. Unpopular war? OK, I'll give him this one. About 15-20% of the people are against the war. But so what? 60% of the people were against the (successful) American Revolution and half were against the (successful) American Civil War.

[Dannyboy]

Not to say he has a point but does everyone understand what he means about the blue-water navy operating in brown water? I don't know whether the 2 posts that mentioned fashion were jokes or not. Anyway, that means big ships in shallow narrow waterways, for the most part.

[faustulus]

There will still be troops in Iraq when we are all dead and buried.

[David Scott]

Originally posted by gburner:
IMHO, W is guided by a moral compass.

I did not believe that anyone could say this about a politician (regardless of party) and keep a straight face.

[jmbg29]

Awwwk quagmire...awwk Viet Nam...awwwk stalemate...:rolleyes: :scrutiny: :uhoh: :barf:

[gburner]

Man, having witnessed a male and female elephant in amorous embrace and never before seeing an elephant, speculated as to the gestation time....

only time will tell.

[Thumper]

Hey Tarpley,

Your buddy's comparison kinda fell apart, didn't it? :D

[TarpleyG]

Sure did...

[Mute]

1. Everything we've said about Hussein and his regime proving to be true. Check

2. We are winning this war and will very likely have complete victory. Check

3. People cheering the U.S. and breaking free from the oppression and torture of a tyrant. Check.

4. All of the above backed up by numerous verifiable resources, unlike the other checklist. Check

Game over. You co-worker is a moron. Ask him to actually prove those point to be true.