[The Real Hawkeye]

On a thread whose topic was BATF abuses, the following resulted in the thread's closureOriginally Posted by E4MC
DMF, whether or not David Koresh was guilty is irrelevant. I watched every minute of the congressional inquiry into this unfortunate incident. What came out of that inquiry was that there was absolutely no need for ATF to perform the dynamic entry that ended up in the death of their agents and lead to the death of most of the Branch Davidians. AFT at that time was an arrogant federal law enforcement agency looking for good publicity and that is why they staged the dynamic entry and invited the media to film it. The local sheriff testifed that if ATF wanted to arrest Koresh they could have done so on numerous occasions when he left the compound to shop in Waco. He further testified that he was on friendly terms with the Branch Davidians and had, on numerous occasions, joined them in target practice at the compound; he saw no such fully automatic weapons. In fact, the alleged automatic weapons turned out to be semi-autos legally fitted with hellfire triggers. The alleged grenades turned out to be legal outer shells that the Davidians were filling and selling as paper weights; the only live grenades found were practice grenades, which aren't really grenades. Other ATF agents that were not members of the entry team testified that days before the dynamic entry, Koresh had invited them out to the compound any time they desired to search, so there was no reason for the dynamic entry. As far as child molestation charges, the child protective services agent responsible for the children at the compound testified that she had inspected the compound and interviewed the adults and children on numerous occasions and saw no evidence of molestation. Even if Koresh was molesting the children, it is irrelevant as far as ATF is concerned because 1) they have no jurisdiction regarding child molestation; and 2) they made no mention of it in the search warrant. The child molestation allegations only came up later when Janet Reno gave it as a reason for her dispicable actions during the siege in a pathetic effort to get the heat off herself. Also regarding the search warrant, it was determined during the inquiry that ATF lied to the judge issuing the search warrant, stating that they believed the Branch Davidians to be operating an illegal narcotics lab when they had no evidence or even any reason to believe this. The reason they did this was so they could get training and help from the U.S. Military, which under the Posse Comitatis (spelling) Act was precluded from helping civilian law enforcement except in drug cases.

So ATF was clearly criminally negligent regarding this incident. And that's just the ATF; don't get me started on Janet Reno and the FBI. It's pretty bad when the FBI Hostage Rescue Team ends up killing all of the "hostages" and then tries to cover it up with a falsified official report.To which Pondarosa commented the following.Thank you E4MC for clarifying all that. The BATF apologists do have a knack for obfuscation in regard to that incident. The actual facts surrounding it are something that we Americans must never forget or suppress from public access or discussion.In response to which a moderator closed the thread thuslyNo rehash of Waco is needed or wanted.

Thread closed.I am really concerned when I see something like this at a site that is supposedly pro gun rights. It is no wonder their political discussion section has been nearly dead for a while now. All I can say is I am grateful for THR. Don't ever let it become a 100% apologist site for the Federal Government's perspective, as 1911forum has apparently become. This would be a tragedy in the extreme.

[tc300mag1]

All i will say is the mods overthere have there panties in a bunch all the time and kill a lot of decent threads

[Gatman]

They are overlyzealous in the political forum. I wont post anything over there other then questions on 1911s, holsters, and 1911 related stuff. Its kind of sad they have a political section but wont allow you to use it.

[Rockstar]

Yawn. So, what kind of shirt was Lee Harvey Oswald wearing when he was killed? What happened to the shirt? What kind of operation did LBJ have while he was in office?

[MountainPeak]

Not intended as a bash at any gun forum, but I believe when, on this issue, the closing of threads, happens at any gun forum, it isn't good. Discussing Waco, Ruby Ridge, and incidents like this shouldn't be forgotten. Just because someone THINKS they have heard enough about it, isn't a reason to stop those that might not have. If you don't want to hear more, don't open the thread, and just let others discuss the matter. I don't see the harm, and I do see a potential benefit, in not forgetting, and in letting the unaware know about the circumstances. Just one man's opinion.

[Zundfolge]

certain subjects will almost always degenerate into flame wars.

Here its abortion, religion, and the safety of Steyr Pistols ... start a thread on any one of those and it will end up getting out of hand so the mods tend to just close them when they popup.

no its not fair, but sometimes you have to be a little unfair to keep flame wars from erupting and screwing up the whole board.


Don't like it? ... a vBullitin license is only like $85 or so (and there are free software packages like PunBB) ... then get hosting (as cheap as $5 a month if you don't use too much bandwidth), and you can set up your own forum. :neener:

[Old Dog]

But what's really the point of rehashing Waco or Ruby Ridge anymore, anyway? At this particular juncture in time, all those discussions do is generate a lot of heat, with no additional light being shed ... Everyone now believes their version of events is the only true one, anyhow.

No point either in criticizing other gun forums ... (unless it's Glocktalk, lots of unintentional hilarity there); the 1911 Forum is more technically-oriented with a lot of long-timer expertise around, and for that reason, it's an excellent gun forum. Simply because it doesn't entertain the (often wacky) variety of views that THR does is no reason to bash it ... and by no means is that forum a a 100% apologist site for the Federal Government's perspective It's just a more gun-oriented, less political forum, is all...

Sigh.
Not intended as a bash at any gun forum But you're doing it right now ... Not everyone hangs out on firearms forums to discuss the activities, good or bad, of federal government law enforcement agencies.

[mr_dove]

I personally hate that forum and only go there because they have a few areas that are not covered properly on other forums. I think the moderators are way too over the top and I am reminded of that fact every time I'm forced to visit there.

For being a forum frequented by people who value freedom there's not a whole lot of freedom to be had there.

[neoncowboy]

I personally hate that forum and only go there because they have a few areas that are not covered properly on other forums. I think the moderators are way too over the top and I am reminded of that fact every time I'm forced to visit there.

+1

...and I'm a 1911 lover!

[The Real Hawkeye]

I was expelled from that site for no good reason a year or so ago. I occasionally take a peek, but have no interest in participating in the few political discussions that still go on there, as you cannot say much without being booted anyway. I notice that it is not nearly as active as it was a couple of years ago. Not a mystery as to why.

[DevLcL]

Im with MountainPeak... I didn't know all that about waco until I just read it a few moments ago...

-Dev

[Old Dog]

The thread in question went on for eight or nine days, four pages and a lot of posts; even moderators were posting to the thread, but by the time it was closed, no new information was coming to light and the thread had really run its course. From what I've been able to ascertain during the time I've been a member of the 1911 Forum, its membership (staff and moderators included) are as pro-gun rights as anyone here at THR. However, continuous and tiresome review of old historical events, particularly when it doesn't contribute to a forum's mission, is not necessary. In my view, that's why threads such as the one in question get closed on that particular forum, not because the forum administrators and moderators want to "shut down" useful discussion or curtail forum members' freedom.

And frankly, if you don't already have enough information on the events at Ruby Ridge and Waco, shame on you. Finally, if you're relying on internet discussion forums for all your historical and political education ... er, let's just say perhaps you need to remember: it's only the internet!

[The Real Hawkeye]

Old Dog, there are new generations coming up that know nothing about this event. If we older guys maintain that we have already heard it and therefore no one should be able to talk about it, these youngsters will never learn this very important lesson of history because they will never hear it mentioned, and will therefore never be motivated enough to research it.

As for why it was shut down, the reason was stated clearly by the moderator.

[dakotasin]

But what's really the point of rehashing Waco or Ruby Ridge anymore, anyway?


are you serious?

[Digex2]

Finally, if you're relying on internet discussion forums for all your historical and political education ... er, let's just say perhaps you need to remember: it's only the internet! I didn't know that liberal journalists, professors, and the media were much better sources for my education. Good thing I can form my own opinion after listening to my fellow man online.

[GoRon]

I am a member of and visit 1911forum regulary. I do not venture into their GGD or LP forums. Those forums are redundent to what I get here and as has been mentioned not moderated as well as they are here.

I highly recommend anybody with a love of 1911s or ?s about them to go there. The manufacturer specific forums are a wealth of knowledge.

When I go there it is for 1911 specific info and edification.

My feathers got ruffled by what I percieved as over moderation a while ago. I didn't throw out the baby with the bath water. There are a lot of good folk over there and I don't have to agree with everything they do to participate and enjoy the forum.

It's just the internet guys/gals!

[Hawkmoon]

All i will say is the mods overthere have there panties in a bunch all the time and kill a lot of decent threads
+ 10

It used to be a good forum. IMHO the forum at M1911.ORG (http://forum.m1911.org/) is far superior. Disclaimer: I am a moderator there, but not before I joined up as a refuge from "the other" 1911 forum. M1911.ORG is an international forum, however, and the forum owner is strict about keeping discussion related to 1911s. It's a 1911 forum, not a RKBA forum. Politics is not permitted, but that's spelled out in the rules and the thread under discussion would never have been allowed to ramble on for multiple days before being shut down.

[gc70]

Darn; I had never noticed that the 1911Forum even had a Legal & Political section, since I only go there for 1911 info!

[joab]

The discussion of Vang that was cut off after 4 comments made me leave.
not that it was important just that it was the last straw in the overzealous thread closures..

The thread was started either the day of or the day after the attack when every other forum was discussing it.

I sent a very nasty PM to the moderator.
I should not have, but I wanted to be sure that I was never tempted to post there again

1911 Owners Group is a much better group of guys, without the sticks up their butts

[The Real Hawkeye]

Joab, what's 1911 Owners Group?

[JohnBT]

1911Forum is great. Sorry it doesn't meet your needs for historical and political discourse. That's one of the things I like about the site - it is focused on what it says it is - a 1911 forum. What's so hard to understand about that?

John
Member www.vcdl.org
NRA Endowment Member

[riverdog]

Calling it a blackout is not being intellectually honest. The second paragraph in the initial post states:I am going to list just a few of the incidents of unconscionable abuse committed by the BATFE over the past 30+ years, that have not gotten the media attention I believe they deserve. My purpose in starting this thread is not to rehash the debacles at Ruby Ridge and Waco--those outrages were too huge to sweep under the rug. Instead, I would like to look at some of the less well known incidents, and discuss how we can bring closer attention to this kind of abuse. This article, from rkba.org, lists a few of them:. . . From the outset, the thread was not supposed to be about Waco and RR, but rather other abuses by the BATF. The conversation Waco and RR from the standpoint of why they got the press and why Waco was maybe a bad exampleThe people that were described in your article seem to be "normal folks" while the Weavers and the followers of Koresh were generally perceived by the public as extremists. Maybe citizens will display a little more outrage when "normal folks" are the victims.

But in the end, the thread was 4 pages long and that is no blackout. $.02 YMMV

[The Real Hawkeye]

You guys are fooling yourself if you don't think there is a blackout on those two topics over there. If you doubt it, go over right now and start a thread entitled "Let's Never Forget the Outrages at Ruby Ridge and Waco" and see how long before it is not only closed but you are booted for opening it. There is a clear (though not officially stated) policy there to suppress any discussion of those two cases because the mods there are reflexively pro-Federal "police" agency, and these two cases best demonstrate the despotism of said agencies.

As for the, "it's focused on 1911s" argument, they have a section called legal and political whose stated purpose is the discussion of legal and political aspects of gun ownership, not limited to 1911s. I think that Waco and Ruby Ridge qualify as that. You are being disingenuous in suggesting it was closed because not 1911 related. The reason for its closure was stated very clearly by the mod who closed it.

[riverdog]

Why not start a thread titled, "Is there a Blackout on 1911Forum about discussing Waco and Ruby Ridge?" Call them out. Don't dwell on Waco and RR, talk about the blackout.

[The Real Hawkeye]

River Dog, I haven't been a member there for over a year now (Not that I couldn't join again by erasing their cookies from my hard drive and acquiring a new email address, but it is not worth the trouble to me). Why don't you go over and start that thread and see what happens?

[GoRon]

I just did a search on Ruby Ridge and Waco over at 1911forum.

There are 25 pages of threads that mention Waco. Most of the threads that are specificaly about Waco/Ruby Ridge go 3-5 pages and are then locked.

Seems that they let the threads run until there is more heat than light.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Once again, the moderator who closed the thread STATED HIS REASON FOR CLOSING IT. We do not need to speculate.

[riverdog]

Because I don't think it's an issue.

[wingman]

We are lucky to have excellent moderators here on THR, I have noticed a trend on other sites that moderators will shut down any thread that does not agree with there views especially in the legal/political threads.

[Daniel T]

Most of you guys have been here long enough to know that the mods of this board don't generally appreciate the bashing of other boards. It serves no purpose, it has no point.

If you don't like that another board won't let you discuss certain topics, then discuss the topic here, don't whine about the other board.

[The Real Hawkeye]

True, but I just hateses them so much. :cuss:

[Don Gwinn]

Hey, look, Daniel just did my job for me.

That's part of the reason people think we're pretty good at moderating here; the great majority of our members just don't require much interference from moderators.


Some of you may not like my decision to close this thread any better than the decision to close that Waco thread at 1911forum. I do apologize for the intrusion, but as observed above, we aren't a forum for bashing other forums, particularly those on the same side of the barricades. The 1911 moderators do what they think best on their forum, and we do what we think best here. Incidentally, some of "them" are also us.

I don't post at 1911forum (don't throw anything, but. . . . I don't own a 1911) so I'm not going to bother attacking or defending what they do. I simply don't want THR to become the platform for carping about other gun forums. That way lies flame wars, forum wars, and the mass exodus in disgust of people we want to keep around.