[thereisnospoon]

Okay I have to admit it...I used to secretly look down my nose at you AK people, what with your cheap plentiful mags, cheap plentiful ammo and even 70+ round drum mags...

Then I finally broke down and bought one...

It is a SAR1 Underfolder (whoever added the underfolding stock needs some gunsmithing classes...) came with three thirty round mags and a Norico Drum.

Finally took it to the range today and All I can say is

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

Sorry for all those times I secretly scoffed at y'all.

Now a few questions:

1. How do I get this underfloder off so that I can refinish the rifle around bubbas marks?

2. Are the mojo sights worth it?

3. Bubba removed the side scope mount...and left a big gouge were the rivet was...any hints on fixing (I was thinking brass hammer...call me Bubba jr.)

4. How do you remove the front grips/stocks and who has the best replacement stocks including vertical grip?


Thanks for your help and again, forgive me for all the times I hated AKs

[Kurt]

Welcome aboard the AK-train to truth!

They ARE great, aren't they!

With the not-yet-awakened among us, it's a jealousy thing.

I'm absolutely positive.


:D

[chopinbloc]

first off, buy a good quality replacement fire control group. my sar 1 burned through its fcg in about 3000-4000 rounds.

have no idea about the underfolder but for the handguard, after you take off the gas tube look at the top, front ent of the lower handguard. you'll see a small lever a little more than a quarter inch long. pull that up and it'll rotate the half-round catch that holds the metal collar in place. the collar in turn holds the handguard back. after you pull the lever up, the collar should slide forward easily and then you can pull the handguard forward.

krebs makes nice stuff. tad expensive, but nice. remember that barrel generates ALOT of heat so whatever handguard you decide to put on there you'll want to make sure it is heat resistant. nice thing about even cheap wood is that it will not melt and it takes alot to get it to burn.

a peep sight helps alot but i bought the red star adjustable type and the elevation screw vibrates out of zero, even after i applied lock-tite. i ordered a krebs model and i'll see how that works.

and, yeah, ain't they a hoot?

[Sunray]

I don't think I'll ever understand why anyone would want a scope on a battle rifle. Granted the issue sights are poor, but a scope buggers the balance.
AK's were designed to be issued to illiterate conscripts and nothing else.
However, go here and download a manual. Note the need for the provided UN and PW. http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/

[355sigfan]

I have owned 4 different AK's. 2 maks, 1 Maddi I Romanian gun and 1 Hungarian gun. They all were reliable but they all had the typical Ak accuracy (minute of basket ball at 100 yards) they have crappy safety's crappy sights. Some of the new guns made in the use address these issues but then they cost as much as a quality AR. Sorry I sold my AK's they no longer hold any magic for me. Only accurate guns are fun.
Pat

[chopinbloc]

sunray,
the mojo sight is a replacement peep sight for the ak.

[FotoTomas]

I owned a Maadi some years ago. It was both inexpensive to own and operate. Even so the trigger was terrible and the trigger "slap" caused pain and then numbness to the trigger finger after a couple of 40 round magazine strings. I decided that the AK platform was not for me. Sold it off for another toy.

I have heard that the trigger slap can be cured and might in the future get another to play with. Can not argue with the concept of inexpensive ammo, guns and accessories. :)

[Sewerman]

You may want to try a saiga, ive owned a few AKs and the saiga doesnt seem to have any of the problems often associated with them. its also by far the most accurate ak type rifle iv ever fired. it gives my buddys vepr a run for its money :evil:

http://club.guns.ru/eng/saiga_renaissance.html

[KaceCoyote]

The Mojo sights -rawk-.

[iamkris]

I felt the same way you did about both AKs and ARs. Made fun of them based on what I "read" and what I "knew". Finally got smart enough to realize I needed to actually experience something before I proclaimed to be an expert. Bought both, love both. Not enough to forsake my FAL and M1A but enough to have an honored spot in the safe.

While I never have owned a Mojo sight, the concept seems sound as I'm a big fan of peep sights...on everything from my 1874 Sharps to my 03A3 to my AR.

[Silent-Snail]

Sunray, some of us have problems seeing(sp?) at any decent distance.

Heck with my glasses off I can't even read what I type.

[swingset]

I still don't like AK's.

Owned them, shot them, they just don't do it for me.

Bad sights, bad ergos, accurate enough for war, but I'm not at war.

I like some of the variants (Valmet, Galil, etc.), but a std. AK? Bleh.

[Optical Serenity]

Lets see some AK pics! Get me to own one again!

[Sleeping Dog]

Mojo is an improvement over the standard sight. Kobra is even better - but it takes batteries.

[m39fan]

Just my .02, when you're looking at handguards seriously consider a TDI lower. It'll give you usable rails, which to my surprise I DO like. I always thought rails were somewhat for posers but they are nice for hanging a few accessories on. My favorite setup so far is a TDI Lower Handguard with a M-Series light and Ergo brand broomstick. It also makes sighting in easy as you can easily mount a bipod. Might be worth looking at. Don't buy the TDI upper. Too loose for any practical use. Ultimak would be better if you want a top rail.

HTH,
Mike

[Kharn]

FYI, the side scope mount must be removed to add an underfolder, due to the shape of the underfolder's left arm and how close it is to the reciever when folded.

And tagged for updates, because I've got an underfolder that I also need to take apart.

Kharn

[Sleeping Dog]

side scope mount must be removed
Then forget the Kobra - it uses the side mount plate.

[Father Knows Best]

Then forget the Kobra - it uses the side mount plate.

Not necessarily. There are lots of mounting options for the Kobras, as shown here:

http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/media2/3stylekobras.jpg

You can get the Kobra either with the side rail mount, or with a rail mount for attaching to 1913STD (Weaver/Picatinny) rails. The rail mount version is also available in your choice of thumb screw attachment or quick-detach. So if you have an underfolder, you can still attach a Kobra. Just get an Ultimak gas tube/upper handguard with the built-rail, and mount the Kobra to it.

I've got the 2nd Gen side rail Kobra (EKP-8-02) on my Arsenal SA M7S, and it's great.

[Father Knows Best]

Oops. I forgot to mention that the pic above is courtesy of Tantal's excellent site: http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru

It also happens to be the best source for buying Kobra optics: http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/bstkobra.html

[Crosshair]

A POSP scope on a Saiga is great. All I have to do is convert it to pistol grip.

[KaceCoyote]

Have the siderail repaired, One of the coolest thing about AKs is having 2-3 100 dollar optics that come on and off without loss of zero.

[thereisnospoon]

OK, So I bagged the ultimak yesterday that carbon15 was nice enough to sell. I sure hope it fits (prolly should have verified, but at the price I paid I can always resell if not...hoping for one size fits all [except Krinkov, etc.). I will not be "Scoping" this gun, but red dots rule for fast sight acquisition. I might even go with one of the Kobras to be "Eastern Bloc".

Now then, as I said, whomever put the Underfolder on buggered it up pretty bad, so I need to refinish the gun (Oh, Darn, gotta get out my DuraCoat stuff...shucks! :rolleyes: ). So how do I get this Darned contraption off ???

I tried some of the links posted here and at www.ar15.com, but nothing definative.

BTW, the accuracy for rapid firing was WAY better than I expected. I ran some drills using IDPA targets at 15 and 25 meters, and was zero points down the whole time. I think I will definately go with the MOJO's and paint my front sight some color other than black.

I'll post some before and after pics later on. Right now I'm a little too busy having fun to tear it apart and paint it.

[KaceCoyote]

Welcome, to the darkside.......

http://www.jedidigital.com/images/darth-vader.jpg

[Father Knows Best]

Welcome, to the darkside.......

Indeed. I never saw any reason to get an AK until I stumbled across a like-new Arsenal SA M7 at a price I couldn't pass it up. I figured I could flip it quick and make a few hundred bucks on it. Of course, I had to shoot it first, just to see what all the hubbub was about. I'm now hooked.

[MTMilitiaman]

Trigger slap can be fixed any number of ways. You can buy a TAPCO G2 trigger group if you are cheap. Or you can go all out on the Red Star Arms. The RSA I know costs $90 as compared to $35 for the G2, but it can attest to how impressive it is. Other than being about a pound and a half heavier than I like my Remington Model 700's trigger, it feels pretty much the same--a clean, crisp break with no overtravel or creep at 3.5 to 4 pounds. Or you can just do it yourself in about 30 minutes with a Dremel and it is so simple even I can do it.
The Mojo ghost ring sights are nice too and install in about 5 minutes if you have a Leatherman, though that leaf spring can be a PITA. O well. Nothing in life is free and when you're done, you'll have a much faster and cleaner sight picture that, at least for me, makes the rifle both faster and more accurate.
My AK was capable of 4 or 5 inch accuracy even with the trigger slap and crappy sights. Same with my brother's. Both of these are $320 Romanian WASRs. Not exactly unniversally accepted to be of, how do I say this, awe inspiring or otherwise jaw dropping quality. My uncles MAK 90 will do about an inch less. Neither my brother nor I consider ourselves exceptional rifleman either. But if you're out to say, 300 yards or so, you're probably in a pretty bad spot if anybody who knows what they are doing has an AK and any inclination to put a hole in you. And you know what? That is all the system was meant to do. The more expensive ones can reportedly give you 2 MOA. One of these is the VEPR which I have seen for sale for about $600. At any rate, you can spend the same amount on an AR--but then you're still stuck with an AR. The whole point of getting an AK is to avoid the AR. Sure an AR may be able to get put a hole in you at 600 yards, but have you looked at the cartridge lately. Having a rifle with an effective range at least twice that of the cartridge is just one of the things I never understood with the fascination with the AR, but to each his own I guess.
When someone asks me for a cheap, fun rifle that is reliable enough to use for more serious occassions, I tell them to do what I did--get a WASR (or SAR), Dremel the trigger group or put a G2 in it, a $20 M249 style grip, and a Mojo ghost ring sight. Presto. Minute O Whatever You Want To Shoot, pull the trigger 1000 times for Under $120, easy to accessorize if you so desire, plentiful 20, 30, 40 and 75 round mags, and the rifle still is under $400. And the best thing, if you ask me, is that it isn't an AR.

[Deep Blue]

Underfolder disassembly instructions can be found here (http://home.earthlink.net/~mwsjb/AKbuild3.htm).

[Commissar Gribb]

owned a Maadi some years ago. It was both inexpensive to own and operate.

I own a Maadi right now (as seen in the gratuitous AK porn thread). Smooth trigger/ no slap at all. It's gotta be one of the cheapest made guns I've owned but I dont ever see myself selling it. In a bind it's compact and handy enough to do what it was designed for and effectively!

As for Mojo sights, I've gotten used to the commie sights- I dont think I would do any better (or as well for that matter) with peeps on an AK. The AK is not a slow fire marksmanship rifle, and I think it doesnt need that kind of sighting set up. A red dot or some commie sights do the job fine.

[chopinbloc]

The whole point of getting an AK is to avoid the AR.

uh, that's not why i bought my ak. bought it 'cause i couldn't afford an ar. now i've bought two ars and it's time to buy another ak. this time because i like the ak as well. you would be luck to hit a human sized silhouette at three hundred meters with most aks in the best of conditions, let alone field conditions where the enemy is not so kind as to stand out in the open with his entire torso exposed and hold still for ten seconds.

Having a rifle with an effective range at least twice that of the cartridge is just one of the things I never understood with the fascination with the AR, but to each his own I guess.

try hitting your enemy's heel or elbow at 75 meters with an ak. not as likely and not as repeatable, especially from the odd positions you will be forced to take in the field. that's why many people like an ar - because they know that if they can see it, they can probably hit it.

don't get me wrong, aks are lots of fun and i love mine to death (literally, i have to get it rebarreled :D ) but i'm tired of people saying that x is the ultimate weapon system and can do anything that y can do but better and only stupid people have a y. look: buy a rifle when you can, buy an ak when you have the money, then buy an ar when you have the money, then get an m1a or fal or both, then start over with the ak. rifles are fun and they all have their strong points.

[355sigfan]

Having a rifle with an effective range at least twice that of the cartridge is just one of the things I never understood with the fascination with the AR, but to each his own I guess.
END QUOTE

Its better than having a gun that can only shoot 200 yards with a cartridge that will do 500 yards. (ie the Ak)
Pat

[Commissar Gribb]

Its better than having a gun that can only shoot 200 yards with a cartridge that will do 500 yards. (ie the Ak)
Pat

or MAYBE THEY BOTH HAVE THEIR OWN NICHES OF ABILITY!

AK - loud, robust, clunky and powerful. Like a hammer.

AR - balanced, refined, and precise. Like a katana

both very nice rifles. I would suggest either.

[MTMilitiaman]

I like the way you think.

Maybe I have fallen victim to the age old condition of looking at every problem like a nail because my only tool is a "hammer."

Still, I have no desire to own an AR. My brother has been through 3 of them since basic and not a single one has worked right. The armorer even gave up on one of them. He's not the only one in his platoon to have problems either. In fact, of all the people I know who have been in the Army or Marines, the only one express satisfaction with the AR grew up in a Mormon household in Park City, Utah and didn't have enough experience with firearms elsewhere to form a basis for comparrison. All the Montana country boys I know who grow up shooting since before they reach kindergarten have all expressed mild dissatisfaction to intense burning hatred for the rifle. My brother called me last week and said if the armorer can't or doesn't fix his rifle this time in, he's going to bang it on the ground until it breaks in half and take the Article 15. As opposed to a folded flag, I can't blame him. And when the only people I know personally and trust can't say much good about the rifle for its intended purpose, well, you can't blame me for not being anxious to get my paws on one. My brother has stated he'd rather have his WASR than the M4 he's currently issued so until someone forces me to shoot an M4, I think I am going to take his word for it and save myself the hassle. I know AKs work and I seem to be able to hit things with them, at least until my conditions, so it's all good.

[thereisnospoon]

Deep Blue....Thanks!

As to AK vs. AR, the truth is IF I ever really needed a rifle, I would pass up both the AR and the AK for my M14S, but that's just me. That doesn't mean that this AK will not find a loving place in my fun collection :evil:

[MAUSER88]

Lots of AK infor here. http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/index.shtml

Enjoy!!

http://www.huntingpictures.net/photo/002415 (http://www.huntingpictures.net/photoview/002415)

[Dr.Rob]

AK in 5.56 or 5.45 = longer range robust hammer.

[MechAg94]

My Dad said he trained with the M14 and received an M16 in Vietnam. He said he never really had an issue with M16 other than it feeling like a toy. Mark him down as one who would turn to an M14 first.

[goon]

I have enormous respect for the durability and reliability of the AK. Plainly put, I have never seen one that didn't work.
Having said that, I can't hit crap with one. I have owned three and shot many others, so I say this with a fair amount of experience.
Glad you like the AK.

[benEzra]

The whole point of getting an AK is to avoid the AR.
Actually, for many people of average means, the point of getting your first "AK" is to get a decent full-capacity detachable-magazine rifle when you cannot afford to spend even $400, never mind the $750 plus for an AR.

I'd love to have an AR (a 16" AR is on my daydream wish list, next to the Volvo S40T5 and the Sunfish), but my six-year-old son is a special-needs kid. When cardiac angioplasties are so common as to become almost routine (he's had seven angioplasties and two open-hearts in 6 years), you're blessed if you're able to afford ANY 30-round carbine, never mind a Rock River M4gery with an Eotech or whatever.

An AK lookalike gives you 80% or more of the capability of an AR at less than half the price, which looks pretty good when your choices are AK vs. SKS rather than AK vs. AR.

[cidirkona]

The only problem my converted wasr10 has ever had is emptying my ammo-fund - although at a much slower rate than the ARs or Cetme...

-Colin

[355sigfan]

An Ak is a good choice for those who cannot afford an Ar.
Pat

[Rob1035]

I'm of the opinion that anyone on a budget should have at least 1 Ar and 1 Ak, simply out of principle. Those of us with more financial freedoms should have more than 1 of each, and help our poor friends get them. Can't let the grabbers win, now can we?

[TIMC]

I bought my AK several years ago but my first evil rifle was a Colt H-Bar. I now have 3 AR's and just the one AK but the AK is still probably my favorite of the bunch. If you want a fun lead slinger especillay while bump firing the AK is the one to go with.

As far as cheap I am not to sure about that, as a basic rifle it is cheap. I have a picture of my AK on page 1 of the gratuitous AK porn thread, as it is pictured I have about $1100 in it. That is about what I have invested in my Bushmaster M-4 and Colt H-Bar each.

[hillbilly]

Even better than the AK is the SKS that takes AK mags!

Still cheap ammo and mags.

Only with the SKS, you CAN hit a torso-sized target at 300 yards without too much of a problem.

I do it all the time at the Old Fort GUn Club in Fort Smith. I do it from field positions, too, not off the bench.

My SKS-M isn't going to win any NRA Highpower matches.

But hey, for a rifle that cost me $225, whaddya want?

Bang.

hillbilly

[444]

I am getting ready to buy my third AK with ideas of buying a fourth and fifth at least. I started off with a Norinco that I eventually had to sell right after my divorce to pay my bills. I have a WASR10 and a Polish underfolder. I now want an AK74 and am definitely buying a Krinkov.
In addition to those I have a couple HK91s, an STG58 (FAL), M1A, several M1s and a bunch of ARs.
If I could only have one, it would be an AR. If the SHTF and I reached in my safe to grab a rifle to defend my life, it would be an AR. If I had to walk away from my home with the stuff I could carry on my back, I would be carrying an AR. To me, this isn't even a question.

AKs are fun. I enjoy owning them. I shoot them frequently. However, I look at them just like I look at Hi-Point handguns. Made from crude materials. Mediocre accuracy. Extremely poor ergonomics.
Again, I am not trying to put them down, but when I read self rightous posts pitting X against Y or posts implying that we can only pick one or the other, or posts suggesting that you are either with me or against me, I have to chime in with my two cents. The vast majority of the time, when I do chime in, it is more than an off the cuff comment based on something I heard or read somewhere. It is personal experience. YMMV.

"Only with the SKS, you CAN hit a torso-sized target at 300 yards without too much of a problem."
The SKS can do better than that. I shot my Russian SKS in our local clubs vintage semi-auto match last month and took 5th out of over 40 shooters. The furthest target was at 400 yards and was considerably smaller than a human torso. Next month, I am shooting the WASR10. I normally shoot an M1, but like to experiment once in awhile. In these matches out to 400 yards, these 7.62x39 rifles are definitely competitive although the rainbow trajectory of the round makes it difficult on some stages where you have targets at 200,300,400 as an example: you set your rear sight for the 400 yard target and then you are holding way under the 200. But, it is definitely fun. Heck, I even shot this match once with an M1 carbine :banghead:
Just to throw some crap into the game: if the SHTF and I had to grab a rifle out of my safe, I would take the AK before I would take the M1 in .30-06. The M1 would be one of the last rifles I would take. I may even take a shotgun before the M1. :what: That being said, on the range, the M1 is a dream to shoot. One of my faviorite rifles, but IMO, not much of a combat rifle compared to the other stuff I have sitting next to it in the safe. :eek: That 8 round enbloc clip is an idea who's time came and went (long ago).

[thereisnospoon]

444

Now here I am trying to unite the shooters of the high road over the AK rifle and you have to go and start a mudslinging contest about the venerable M1...I am very sure you have hacked off a lot of people (possibly even Art's gramma) with those incindiary words...

:evil:

[Correia]

Different strokes for different folks. I respect 444s opinion a bunch, and he is one of the guys on this board that actually shoots a lot :) , however the first gun I would pull out of the safe in an emergency is my AK.

I've gone through a bunch of ARs, and have even built my own. They are great guns, but probably because of some mental defect, I keep going back to either the AK or the FAL. :p

With that said, the vast vast vast majority of AKs do not shoot nearly as well as an AR. The AR shoots softer, and far more accurately. The AR sights are hugely superior, (buckhorn sights are a tool of the devil). The AR ergos are better for 95% of the people out there, except for us mutants who can operate the safety lever with our trigger finger.

With that said, the AK that I use is not a standard AK. I use a customized Vepr K in 3gun competition. I run Krebs A2 style iron sights. And I do okay with it. So I suppose the reason that I would go for it first is that I have a huge amount of trigger time on this particular type of gun. It is just what works for me.

See, no need for hate. Group hug. :)

[MM]

Father Knows Best,
I have an ultimak mounted on my SAR 1 and wonder if I can co-witness the irons through the Kobra holo sight? Do you know if this is possible?
I have a Hakko holo-sight on my bushie and have no probs sighting with the the irons through it, if I want, but the Hakko sits too high on the ultimak to achieve the same results on the Romanian.
Thanks,
SatKong

[Gordon]

I humped an AMD 63 with Ultimak and Aim point and Surefire light on MY own mounting above left side of fron pistol grip , on a Tactical Tailor Single point sling 10 clicks total at 7000ft + this last 4 day weekend :D I 'only' carried 400 rnds and 4 mags (1 in rifle and 3 on left leg ) and a hydration bladder on my back.
I sighted in the iron sights using a sight tool,('A' at 50 yards) then I installed the Aimpoint on it's Arms m-68 mount and sighted it in at about 75 yards.It cowitnesses aalittle above the front sight. I could hit an empty adult beverage can at 50 yards( I humped in ((full))) :neener: every time after this procedure with the 4moa Aimpoint dot and humped back with 20 rounds, incase of bears :D
this unit seems capable of about 4" at 100 yards prone, and can just hose them in at 25 yards :evil: which is the distance I will be 'operating' at the weekend of 12-14 of Oct, under the auspices of mssrs Louis Awerbuck & Scott Reitz in the "Vehicle Defense Course" . I had to check the system, and it's 'all good'!!! :cool:

[Father Knows Best]

Different strokes for different folks. I respect 444s opinion a bunch, and he is one of the guys on this board that actually shoots a lot , however the first gun I would pull out of the safe in an emergency is my AK.

I've gone through a bunch of ARs, and have even built my own. They are great guns, but probably because of some mental defect, I keep going back to either the AK or the FAL.

+1. I've had a few AR's. I sold 'em. I now own and love an AK (Arsenal SA M7), a FAL (DSA SA58 Para carbine), a G3 (PTR-91) and a couple of M1's (USGI). I'd take any of them over an AR. In a SHTF situation, I would grab the AK.

I don't own a VEPR, but that's only because the gun fund is empty right now. I'm very impressed with them, and plan on getting one.

[Father Knows Best]

Father Knows Best,
I have an ultimak mounted on my SAR 1 and wonder if I can co-witness the irons through the Kobra holo sight? Do you know if this is possible?

Unfortunately, I don't know the answer. I have a Kobra 8-02 holosight on my Arsenal SA M7, but it's mounted via the receiver side rail. It sits too high to cowitness the irons, and too low to see the irons under it, so the irons are useless with the Kobra mounted. The good news is that I can remove the Kobra in about a second by just flipping the lever and sliding it off, so getting to the irons is quick and easy. I removed and remounted it several times and it doesn't seem to affect the zero at all.

I've heard from others who say that an advantage of the Ultimak mount is that it lets the optics sit lower. At least one poster on this board has talked about his AK with a red dot mounted via an Ultimak, and says he can cowitness the irons through the red dot. If that's important to you, search a little bit and you'll probably find his posts.

[MM]

Thank you, Sir!
SatKong

[TIMC]

I have an Ultimak on my SAR1 with a Holosight from Bushnell. You can not use the iron sights with it.

[AK103K]

Some dot sights will co-witness on the Ultimak, some wont, depends more on the mounts/rings than anything else. I've had the cheapie BSA dot, the one with the mount attached, on my SAR and it co-witnessed fine. That cheap sight worked fine too. I have a Tasco Pro Point on it now and it to will co-witness. I have an Aimpoint ML2 on my AK103K and it wont co-witness on the 100-300M settings, it will on the 400M, but I leave it at the BSZ. The sight is on a Larue lever mount, which is really made for the AR and sits a little high anyway, and I think if you go with a ring instead, you can also get it to co-witness. With the lever mounts the sight can be gone in a heartbeat anyway, so its really not a problem. The forward mounted red dot is the way to go for the AK. Its sits low enough to shoulder and shoot naturally, basically just like the iron sights. Its up front, out of the way of both handling and your vision. Snap shots are a breeze and your longer range shooting will improve a lot.

For those that keep saying the AK is not accurate, and has bad ergonomics, all I can say is, you must not have practiced enough with it to learn it. Its amazing how all the so called disabilities just seem to go away when you take the time to learn it. You can easily sweep the safety off, with your hand on the grip, using the middle finger of that hand, and you can also dump the mag the same way. 99% of the mags will fall free on their own too, and reloads are really not that much slower than an AR. The complaints about the stock being to short is interesting too, since it has the exact same LOP as a M16/M16A1. The A2 is just 5/8" longer. If you have an AK and are contemplating switching out for a longer one, I'd highly suggest that you give the standard stock a chance. Once you get used to it, you will want all your rifles short stocked. They are much easier to shoot quickly with, and its even more noticeable when you have on winter clothing and/or web gear and armor.


This is my Krebs AK103K. It shot the targets at 50 and 100 yards. Its also doing this with a 14 1/2" barrel.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid162/p46023266c9d40579d7b0b28445bacf02/f4b00706.jpg


These were 2 second snap shots from a low ready. Left is 100 yards, right 50.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid114/p5c20d90b90d0b61154c31644fed7090c/f8df35ff.jpg


Offhand slow fire 100 yards.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid161/p683a1e5da8f7b9364cfadf2434c0f3ae/f4c14dde.jpg

Now, the next two pics were both shot prone at 100 yards, one using the rifle above, and one using my M1A SOCOM. Can you tell which one shot which? Is it even worth worrying about? :)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid136/pb76a73ead1b5151502b25ce58a079bba/f7534b66.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid168/p7d015dea6879709e3f822eb7c4446650/f420593d.jpg

[MTMilitiaman]

Well stated AK.

I have a WASR. I am able to shoot 1 gallon orange juice bottles at about 150 yards, slow fire, from the cross legged sitting position--and that is using Mojos and Wolf ammo.
Right after I got the rifle and had put the Mojos on it and polished the internals to eliminate trigger slap, I set up a target like yours at 200 yards. From a knee firing one round every second and a half or so I managed 16 hits out of 30. Keep in mind this is a brown cardboard target on gated maintenence road in the woods. It blended in pretty well and I didn't take the time to pay much attention to my sight picture. I pretty much pulled the trigger as soon as the sights seemed somewhat level COM. After checking my target I slapped a new mag in it, walked 50 yards down range and with the rifle on safe held at low ready I spun around, faced the target, took the rifle off safe on the way up, and snap shot a controlled pair at the head. I am not an expert rifleman by any means so I didn't expect much but when I examined the target again there were two .31 caliber holes in the center of the face vertically strung about 3 inches apart--either would have been instantly fatal and the other shot wouldn't have been necessary. Keep in mind this is with an open sighted rifle that cost me less than $400 with the accessories that were on it shooting cheap ammo, and with which I was unfamiliar because it was only my 3rd or 4th time out with the rifle. I think people underestimate what the Kalashnikov is capable of, accuracy wise, if someone takes the time to be honest with themselves and their rifle and just learn it. A case of ammo is still less than $120 or so, so practice isn't all that expensive, and neither are the rifles. But for what they were designed to do, the AKs are every bit as accurate as they need to be.

[chopinbloc]

yup, aks are accurate enough for most purposes but ars are more accurate. as for reliability, well the m16 and m4 might not be the best way to judge it as they are often operated by individuals who don't know what they're doing and armorers that should be hung by their toenails for the abuses that they perform on innocent rifles. these guys aren't gun smiths, they're jumped up supply sergeants. i have never had a problem with an ar or m16 after thousands of rounds through both. the only problem i ever had with an ak was slam firing due to inferior materials used in the fcg. that should not be blamed on the design, but it is, perhaps, indicative of the shoddy materials and workmanship often found in american kalashnikov style rifles. to be fair, you can encounter the same thing in ar rifles as well. the bushmaster failure to adequately stake the gas key on quite a few rifles is a good example. it is my belief that inferior materials and workmanship is more common in the ak type rifle than the ar but the ak is probably more forgiving of that sort of thing. i am really tired of hearing people say the m16 is an unreliable weapon when the person giving that report was dragging the rifle through the dirt or using dented magazines or the rifle has fired in excess of 50,000 rounds since its last organizational level maintainence or was subjected to an armorer who's favorite tool is a "bigger hammer." an ak would crap out too, sometimes under the conditions that soldiers subject their weapons to. it is perhaps more tolerant of dirt but the kind of abuse that some people perpetrate on innocent rifles is downright criminal. i'm not saying that ars have to be kept in a laboratory environment, either. my m16a2 has been kicking around with me in the pashtun region for about six months now. it gets cleaned about once a week, more often if i think it needs it. i shoot it from time to time and it works just fine. i'll let you know if i ever have a problem with it.

[AK103K]

I agree, the AR is generally the more accurate rifle, especially if your a target shooter. I do have a Bushmaster Dissapator that shoots on par accuracy wise with some of my AK's though. I think the biggest problem for the AK's in this respect are the sights, and this is why the Aimpoint type sights bring the AK's into the AR's world and make the issue sights a pretty much moot point. The dot works the same on the AK as it does on the AR, put the dot on what you want to shoot, and shoot it, what could be easier?

One thing about the issue AK sights. I actually find them easier to shoot quickly with at closer ranges, 100M or less. Peeps are great, and I do like them for target or more precision shooting, but they can be a bear in some circumstances. Lighting being the biggest problem. Ever had the sun over your back and try and see the front sight on something just slightly dark through the now highlighted rear sight? What your accustomed to looking through is what your eye is now looking at instead. The AK's sights, as primitive as they are supposed to be, work well as a quick combat sight in low light, or regular light for that matter, by just putting the "globe" around the post on top of the "bar" of the rear sight and then put the globe on what you want to shoot. If you shoulder the rifle and do this quickly, then once on target, slowly roll your cheek down, you will see your front post and rear notch are lined up and on target, or very close to it. Works just like the HK's big notch on their 91's/G3's. We as Americans have been conditioned to believe that the M1, M14, M16, type peeps are the best type sight in the world, and for target shooting with iron sights on a military type rifle, it would be right, but for a best all around combat type sight, especially a close range, fast shooting sight, I'll disagree.


There's no doubt the biggest problem for the AK's is the US made and installed trigger groups. I believe you'll find most of the (US)AK related failures occur do to them.

I own a number of both AR's and AK's, so I'm not really biased against one or the other. Both have good points and some not so good. If you treat your tools properly, they will take care of you for a very long time and most likely your kids and their kids. If you dont, you get what you deserve, simple as that. I've never had any problems with my AR's either. They have always worked, even when shot a lot and shot dirty. I have a Colt SP1 that I bought new in 74' that has tens of thousands of rounds through it at this point, and I can ever remember it having a stoppage.(I'm sure it did at some point, they ALL do, but I'm getting CRS, so I dont right now remember a specific one. :) ) It has shot more than a thousand rounds at a session too,(multiple times) between multiple shooters, and fired fast enough that you would literally burn the skin off your hand if you touched it, allowed to cool and done again. To this day, its still a good shooter and is still accurate. I think most of this crap about A being better than B is just more internet BS being repeated over and over, by people who, dislike one or the other, have never owned or shot one, or if they did, it was a mag or two off a bench, or worse yet, bumped off the hip, and they never took the time to learn the gun.

[pignock]

I bought an AK (Arsenal SLR101) after the senate voted to extend the AWB in 04 and have since developed a very strong preference for the design over ARs.

I've had an AR in one form or another since the AWB first passed in '94 and was always amazed at the ergonomics of it and dismayed by how unnecessarily complex the bolt seemed and how dirty the internals got. I mean DIRTY - not just powder fouling but this hard as nails carbon stuff you've got to scrub and scrub to get off. I was always absolutely anal about keeping it clean because of how intricate the bolt/carrier group parts seemed. After every firing, the bolt and carrier got broken down and all carbon removed, the lower receiver got a blast of compressed air and the barrel was cleaned from the breach. A couple of times a year, the gas tube was removed and cleaned with a pipe cleaner.

The only time my Colt Sporter (purchased used)ever malfunctioned on me was when one of the allen screws that hold the bolt carrier key on broke inside the carrier. :eek: when I reinstalled the key, i never felt anything to indicate I had overtightened one of the screws so I couldn't figure out why the rifle wouldn't cycle and it took a trip to the smith to make things right. Since then, I've always been just a little leery of a design that can hide it's broken parts so easily.


The AKs on the other hand, have NONE of the ergonomics of the AR. If you have small hands like I do, everything on it is a reach. Metal magazines are much heavier than AR mags and don't just "snap in" - you gotta learn "rock and roll". 7.62 ammo is heavier than 5.56 ammo. Even shielded handguards get very hot very quickly. Scope mounts are clunky at best.

But they work every time the trigger is pulled. They still get dirty inside but with just the normal powder residue that mostly wipes off with just a dry rag. It has way fewer internal parts that are both less intricate and bigger (so they are harder to lose). I am way more relaxed about keeping the insides of my AK clean. It gets an inside and outside wipedown after each use, a boresnake down the barrel and thats it.

In terms of accuracy, it's a wash for me. Yes I can shoot the AR much more accurately from the bench and a little more accurately in field positions. The feild position group size difference is small enough that I'm not terribly worried about.



They are two completely different animals and you owe it to yourself to at least try each before you decide, but I think having one of each (or more of the design you prefer) is a good idea.

Pig

[Gewehr98]

Coffee's on the back table next to the cookies, the support group meeting will start in a few minutes. ;)

http://mauser98.com/sar1bench.jpg

[thereisnospoon]

After looking at some of the responses that include pics, I realize whoever did the underfoler really hacked it up.

Also, after going to the range I have experienced a few probs...

When I rack the bolt, it will "hang" on the trunion (I hope that's the correct word) on the stock. I can give it a nudge and it slams home fine. No probs during firing, just when I pull the bolt. :banghead: Any suggestions?

Also, I want to purchase a couple items from Red Star and wanted opinions...first I want to replace the lower forestock with the tri rail synthetic one...any users out there pro or con? I also want to add the mag release lever thingy, again users, pro and con?

By the way, the drum mag works...very well :evil:

[chopinbloc]

i really feel that the stock mag release is just fine. i ninjafied my sar-1 and now i'm gonna have to buy another ak so i have one that's nice and stock and pretty and light..... okay, well maybe i just want an excuse to buy another one but you will find they can get pretty heavy pretty quick.

[AK103K]

When I rack the bolt, it will "hang" on the trunion (I hope that's the correct word) on the stock. I can give it a nudge and it slams home fine.
It may be actually the carrier hanging on the hammer. My SAR did this before I swapped its trigger group for a RSA group. I've seen some some people on the web who though it was actually a bolt hold open device. :)


I dont have the extended mag release, on my rifles. Just never saw the need. I dont have big hands and can easily reach and push the release with the tip of my middle finger with my hand on the grip. I always thought that extended release looked like it would tear your hands up with all those sharp edges or drop the mag unintentionally if it bumped something like you or your gear. Then again, I've never used one, so what do I know? :)

I will suggest that you take a small file, a jewelers file works great, and just "break" the edges of the mag release where it touches the locking piece of the mag. The part is a stamping and the process leaves a sharp edge on it that tends to grab and hold onto the mag. All of my AK's had this edge, and some would bind badly when the release was pushed and make releasing the mag difficult and a two hand process. By just lightly breaking or beveling the edge, the lever moves very easily and the problem goes away.

If your thinking of adding a lower grip on that rail on the lower handguard, just make sure its forward enough not to interfere with your mag change. Most of the European models rake forward to allow for it, but if you use the straight drop type you see on the AR's, you may encounter trouble.