"backpack rifle"


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bad LT
September 25, 2005, 04:47 PM
I am currently in the market for a new, compact rifle that can fit inside of a large book bag. I would prefer a magazine fed, semi-auto rifle in a "rifle" caliber, but am not completely opposed to large handgun rounds that can utilize the longer barrel length of a rifle (44mag, etc.) So far the options that I see are:

Keltec Su-16B:
http://www.kel-tec.com/su-16b_rifle.htm
Folds down to 25 in. and in .223. While I like the folded length, I admit that I would prefer a larger caliber (7.62x39 being one such example). Also, a rather new product without military use.

16in AK with folding stock:
http://www.vectorarms.com/indexframe.html
Folds down small (don't know overall length while folded) and in a larger caliber.

16.25in Para FAL:
http://www.dsarms.com/item-detail.c...=sa58mwtact.gif
Not as small (don't know the overall dimensions while folded) and in an even more effective caliber - 7.62 NATO. Also rather expensive.

What do you think of the above choices and what other options are available? Thanks for the input.

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MatthewVanitas
September 25, 2005, 05:59 PM
Note:

Kel-Tec SU16-C (folding stock model) = 26" folded

Kel-Tec SU2000 (9mm/.40) = 16" folded

Fitting a DSA FAL into a backpack? Not darn likely, that's a full-size rifle, folded or no.

Overall, "accurate, powerful rifle" and "fits in a backpack" are not compatible characteristics.

Are your needs such that a handgun just doesn't fit the bill?

browningguy
September 25, 2005, 06:43 PM
I've got a SU16A and a Sub 2000 in 9mm (also available in 40 S&W). I can fit the Sub 2000 with 4 x 31 round mags in my regular briefcase. THe SU is of course longer, certainly won't fit in any of my briefcases but will fit in a pretty small carry on size bag.

The .223 round is going to be much better than any handgun round, if I recall the one stop percentage runs 96-100% or so. The AK that you linked to also looks interesting (with the side folding stock) but I haven't handled one personally.

JShirley
September 25, 2005, 06:45 PM
Not sure how you've identified a need for such, but if SBRs are legal where you live, get a Su-16D12 (http://www.kel-tec.com/SU-16d_rifle.htm).

J

beerslurpy
September 25, 2005, 06:52 PM
Well unless you are willing to go the SBR route, you are going to be stuck with at least 20" of folded gun.

A krinkov (short tube AK smg) sbr folder might be a great backback gun. Beefy rifle chamberings are available, and we know that it is a reliable design.

The SU16D is also nice.

Dionysusigma
September 25, 2005, 07:01 PM
Either an AR, HK, or AK "pistol."

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/Carbon15/Images/az-C15P97S.jpg

or

http://www.vectorarms.com/guns/51_pistol_small%20copy.gif

or

http://images.gunsamerica.com/upload/976549927-1.jpg


I gotta ask, though... why? :scrutiny: :confused:

Justin
September 25, 2005, 07:30 PM
I know you stipulated magazine fed and semi auto, but you might consider a break-down lever action as well.

Cosmoline
September 25, 2005, 07:39 PM
Those compact semis are often quite heavy as well. Most folks who do backpack hunting use light weight break-down bolt actions. Kifaru makes some amazingly light ones that are true backpack rifles. Some old-time rifles such as the commercial Mannlicher-Schoenauers and the better Savage 99's were designed to be broken down and were made under 6 or 5 lbs. Wild West Guns up here makes customized Marlins along similar lines.

bad LT
September 25, 2005, 10:16 PM
Some points to consider:

1: I can fit up to 28 inches of gun into a carefully chosen book bag.

2: I've considered a break-down bolt or lever action rifle as well. My only real problems with either choice is the speed with which they may be deployed. How quickly can you put those weapons together?

3: Wish I could get a SBR. Pretty sure that I cannot get one due to IL law.

ctdonath
September 25, 2005, 11:35 PM
Unless you're willing/able to go into NFA law territory, you're stuck with at least 26" overall length minimum for functional size, and 16" minimum for take-down size.

You haven't mentioned price limits.
The sweetest take-down is the Alaskan Co-Pilot (IIRC, produced by our very own WildAlaska):
http://wildwestguns.com/bigcopilotred.jpg (http://wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/body_copilot_and_guide_rifles.html)
Considered by Cooper as "one of the 3 best rifles available", it pushes some very big rounds very fast - for $1320 and up.

At the other end of the spectrum is the Marlin Papoose:
http://dealerease.net/catalog/images/marlinpic607720.jpg (http://www.gunrush.com/firearm/gun/Marlin-607720-Rifles.htm)
popping .22s - for around $200.

Beware that AR15 Pistols and the like can be VERY LOUD.

GunGoBoom
September 26, 2005, 01:07 AM
Questions:

Are you actually going to be hiking a good distance in the wilderness or cross-country with said packpack, or not?

What are the likely game/adversaries/uses of the rifle?

What IS the budget?

Otherwise, it's hard to make a recommendation. But the Wild West Co-pilot looks like a good choice without knowing more. Or the folding Kel-Tec SU16.

bad LT
September 26, 2005, 01:46 AM
GunGoBoom.
Are you actually going to be hiking a good distance in the wilderness or cross-country with said packpack, or not?

What are the likely game/adversaries/uses of the rifle?

What IS the budget?

I am looking for a rifle that I can put into a pack along with some basic supplies just in case ;) . Something that would allow me to walk around in a fairly urban environment with a rifle without drawing the attention a long gun would generate. However there is plenty of farm country in my area that I routinly move around in. Therefore, it would be nice if the rifle would have decent range (lets say greater than pistol caliber rifles).

The budget is whatever I am willing to spend :) . Realistically up to $1ooo.

quiettype
September 26, 2005, 09:30 AM
The Remington 14 & 141 break down and are quickly reassembled.Perhaps you might consider the Daewoo K2 folder.

Cosmoline
September 26, 2005, 02:22 PM
We're talking about a divergent mix of firearms here. The real question is what's the intended target? Are you looking to stow your hunting rifle while in town or are you thinking about somehow having a carbine in the city for personal defense?

Onslaught
September 26, 2005, 03:08 PM
Unless you spend big bucks on a REALLY GOOD backpack, I'm going to assume that weight would be a fairly large consideration.

I would think this is one of those situations where the already mentioned KelTec SU16 Charlie would REALLY do well. In addition to being only 26" long, they weigh around 4.5# and accept AR15 mags.

I don't think you'll find a lighter weight long gun chambered in a rifle caliber.

Darth Ruger
September 26, 2005, 03:10 PM
I'm still trying to figure out the application. If it's just a survival gun (small game, birds, etc), I'd go with a take-down .22 or maybe a 20 gauge.

Something that would allow me to walk around in a fairly urban environment with a rifle without drawing the attention a long gun would generate.
Why do you want to walk around town with a rifle stuffed in a backpack? Are you so concerned about SHTF that you won't even go shopping at Wal-Mart without having a rifle on you? :confused:

Or is there some other reason why you need to carry a concealed, magazine-fed, semi-auto rifle in town?

You're not going to get many useful answers unless you get specific about exactly what this is for.

Cosmoline
September 26, 2005, 03:37 PM
Most folks just solve that issue by stowing a beater rifle or shotgun in their truck. I keep a Mosin in there with the bolt separate.

Moriarty
September 26, 2005, 03:46 PM
Some questions that would come to my mind are:

Is this a defensive rifle?

If I plan to use it for hunting, what are the game species?

What are the typical ranges involved?

What's the upper weight limit?

Is it worth scoping?

Long ago, one of my professors noted that once you phrase the question correctly, the answer is usually obvious.

Darth Ruger
September 26, 2005, 04:58 PM
Most folks just solve that issue by stowing a beater rifle or shotgun in their truck.
That was my first thought, too.

Didorian
September 26, 2005, 06:23 PM
Well, me personally if I was going to go off into the woods for a WHILE, I'd get a back pack rifle, and a sling rifle. Slung would be the SU16C. And in the pack would be an AR 7. Henry repeating Arms still puts them out last I heard. They break down and stow in the stock. It's light weight, and like $200 and some change. Then you have a .223 calibur rifle that is accurate, reliable, and managable for defense and hunting meduim sized prey. Then you have a 22Lr that was designed as a pilot's survival rifle, it has two eight round mags. Light and accurate and in a round that will do most of your actual food hunting.

Of course, I don't have EITHER, or the money to get them yet.... so I just keep my 30/30 in the trunk of my car, and my XD40 rides in a bag in one of the seats until I can get my carry permit. :D

Mayo
September 26, 2005, 07:04 PM
No question the SA58 carbine is the best option----the only thing better would be the SR-25K. Both come with folding stocks to go even shorter! Both in .308.

Shalako
September 26, 2005, 07:11 PM
Hmm, I went backpacking this weekend with my rifle. It's a M70 Featherweight in .30-06, about all you could ask for in a backwoods shootin iron. My buddy had his rifle mounted on his packframe quite securely in some sort of butt-cuff whereas I had to carry mine.

It seems to me like the main selection criterion for this thread is that this rifle be concealable?

I don't quite get it.

simon
September 26, 2005, 07:35 PM
http://www.featherusa.com/page3.html

rbernie
September 26, 2005, 08:36 PM
Something that would allow me to walk around in a fairly urban environment with a rifle without drawing the attention a long gun would generate. Why do I have A Really Bad Feeling <tm> about this? :uhoh:

1911user
September 26, 2005, 09:23 PM
I think he is looking for a (my term) bug-out rifle. It isn't for hunting game, only 2 and 4-legged predators (people and wild dogs) hence a magazine-fed, semi-auto. Concealment is important to lessen the attention drawn although a very large backpack will stand out. Quick deployment is important because port arms carry would invite unwanted attention. Did I miss anything? :D

A mini-14 with a folding stock meets the criteria as well as a disassembled AR-15 with 16 inch barrel and collapsing stock, but those are .223. Combined with a good 22LR conv. kit, both have been a popular "solution" to your question. A folding stock AK with a 20rd mag inserted is the natural choice and has the larger (and heavier) caliber. Any of them meet the $1000 requirement.

bad LT
September 26, 2005, 09:40 PM
What I had in mind was something more along the line of the "bug-out" rifle 1911user talked about. Something that could be used as a more effective defensive arm than a pistol and could take a deer in a pinch. While both the Kifaru and the Alaskan Co-Pilot rifles are nice, I don't think I need the extra power of a 45/70 or 375 H&H. I am not overly concerned with being attacked by Grizzly bears in Illinois :neener:

DelayedReaction
September 26, 2005, 09:46 PM
Isn't there a concern about being able to get to the firearm quickly enough?

Too Many Choices!?
September 26, 2005, 10:53 PM
Soft point ammo...
Nuff said... :)

student
September 26, 2005, 11:00 PM
For some reason this is a favorite topic of mine. I have and love the KT sub2K in 9mm, can't beat its convenience. However, it is only a 9mm so something a bit more powerful with longer range would be nice. I would recommend the SU-16C. I have handled and shot one and it works well for its intended purpose, heck it even shoots well when folded. And the price is good, mags are AR-15 so cheap and plentiful and the ammo is lightweight. Just be prepared for a very loud report and fireball when using this weapon. Might want to add a short flash suppressor. My two other guns to suggest (only because I have these) are the mini-14 and SAR-1. 1st the mini, .223, lightweight, accurate enough and breaks down into 3 pieces very fast and reassembles just as fast. The AK is a heavier choice but with a folding stock can be quite handy and stuffed in a pack. I also hope this thread is intended for a legal use of a weapon. Rapid access to the weapon is preferable but must be balanced with concealment. In my mind, the ability to travel with a defensive rifle that can be concealed from jumpy civilians, predatory criminals and overprotective law enforcement is a key aspect (only one of several) to increase the odds of surviving a SHTF scenario.

rbernie
September 26, 2005, 11:04 PM
Isn't there a concern about being able to get to the firearm quickly enough?Shhhh! Don't interrupt - these 'Neo and Trinity with duffel bags full of EBR goodies' fantasies are always entertaining to watch..... :rolleyes:

JG
September 26, 2005, 11:07 PM
DRC Takedown......

http://www.fototime.com/%7B3211D474-D20A-4583-8E2F-B948D89E9718%7D/picture.JPG

http://www.fototime.com/%7B9CC159CA-2F2F-4E46-B688-28126E1633EF%7D/picture.JPG

nipprdog
September 26, 2005, 11:08 PM
Shhhh! Don't interrupt - these 'Neo and Trinity with duffel bags full of EBR goodies' fantasies are always entertaining to watch..... :rolleyes:
http://glocktalk.com/images/smilies/abovelol.gif

student
September 27, 2005, 12:22 AM
Shhhh! Don't interrupt - these 'Neo and Trinity with duffel bags full of EBR goodies' fantasies are always entertaining to watch.....

He He....good one.
But not as fun as watching all of the Commando/Rambo wannabees carrying MBR's on tactical slings while wearing fatigues and NVGs as they are getting their heads blown off by law enforcement, military or just protective propery owners with families to protect. Try a CCW if you need rapid response.

nipprdog
September 27, 2005, 12:37 AM
heres mine

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/nippr/mine/DSCN0807crw.jpg

roscoe
September 27, 2005, 01:13 AM
I would love a .44 lever take-down carbine as well, but I want a Winchester and there is no one who does that work that I know of. Let me know if you find someone who does.

bad LT
September 27, 2005, 01:38 AM
That is a beautiful rifle JG.

student
September 27, 2005, 09:29 PM
Nipprdog,

Nice rifle. What caliber/gauge is that? NEF I assume?

nipprdog
September 27, 2005, 11:47 PM
NEF I assume?

nope.

http://www.khanshotguns.com/

GunGoBoom
September 27, 2005, 11:56 PM
nipprdog, I like that - had never heard of them - very nice looking - what did it set you back?

GunGoBoom
September 28, 2005, 12:02 AM
In that case, bad, I'd run with the KelTec SU16 folder - I think the "C" model has 16ish barrel with more durable sights.

http://www.kel-tec.com/su-16c_rifle.htm

In fact, curse you! Now I want one! :cuss:

PS. I don't believe the co-pilot is under 1 large anyhow...

Cosmoline
September 28, 2005, 12:38 AM
That Turkish shotty looks pretty good! I've heard positive things about Turkish arms but haven't encountered too many other than the indefatigable Kirikale Mausers. I've been told that my concerns about the quality of Turkish engineering were misplaced, and who am I to disagree?

What I had in mind was something more along the line of the "bug-out" rifle 1911user talked about. Something that could be used as a more effective defensive arm than a pistol and could take a deer in a pinch.

I still think you should seriously consider a take-down Savage '99 in .308. It can be made lighter than any semi possibly could be with a cartridge of that power.

SpookyPistolero
September 28, 2005, 12:57 AM
I believe I understand the intended purposes for the rifle, and to answer a question you didn't ask, I also think you might be best served by keeping the rifle in the vehicle, if you have one. Keeping a rifle on you all the time is a weighty proposition, pun intended, especially when you tag on all the extra gear you have in mind. Not to mention if you ever get into a situation beyond your control where the authorities get to search you, they will not be easily convinced or lenient.

I'd suggest a 'layered defense' in a way, like keeping your pistol and a bare minimum kit on your person, and then a much better kit and your rifle in your vehicle. Your bag and pistol to get to the truck, to get you home.

If this doesn't really seem relevant to the realities of your situation, then I might suggest either the kel-tec SU-16 as well, or a break down .357 lever gun. Speed of deployment will be hindered, but speed will be the realm of the pistol under these circumstances. Keep in mind, too, that you can keep a more effective rifle in your vehicle than you could conceal in a bag.

Just my humble thoughts. :)

goon
September 28, 2005, 01:33 AM
The FAL can be broken into two halves. Doesn't solve all the problems but it does make it just a little more compact if need be.

RnR
September 28, 2005, 01:54 AM
As seen on Johnny Rowland's Guns and Gears... try a Mec-Tech CCU (carbine conversion unit) that replaces the slide on a 1911. Same ammo can then be used in both as you retain the 1911 mags and a sweet trigger if you want. The .460 has plenty of extra "juice" in a .45ACP OAL case if you need it and the 1911 barrel kit for the pistol platform can be had direct from Johnny (website here (http://www.gunsandgears.tv) ).

nipprdog
September 28, 2005, 08:09 AM
nipprdog, I like that - had never heard of them - very nice looking - what did it set you back?

$95. new.

shooten
September 28, 2005, 12:53 PM
I'm glad to see all of the SU-16C comments. I picked mine up yesterday and think it's a great little backpack type rifle. I'll be getting some AR mags at the gun show this weekend. The mags that come with it are cheap and I wouldn't trust them at all. It doesn't go together quickly but I was able to get it in about 20 seconds. Too long for an emergency but pretty fast. It's very light. I don't know about accuracy yet but will find out this weekend. ;)

Scott

Andrew S
September 28, 2005, 01:27 PM
I think knowing your intended range is pretty important.

You say outside of pistol carbine ranges so thats more than 100yards.

What do you need to shoot at thats more than 100yards away in a self defense situation?

JShirley
September 28, 2005, 01:38 PM
What do you need to shoot at thats more than 100yards away in a self defense situation?

Ooh! I know, I know! Me, me!

Charlie Whitman. :rolleyes:

Just because it's not the "norm", doesn't mean it doesn't/can't happen.

John

Andrew S
September 28, 2005, 01:44 PM
Just because it's not the "norm", doesn't mean it doesn't/can't happen.

I am serious in my question. Not trying to be an ass or anything.

Short of someone else with a long gun I dont see the need to reach out past 100 yards in a defensive situation. And expecting that is just an area I wouldnt plan on venturing into myself.

mainmech48
September 28, 2005, 01:50 PM
A couple of other options to consider on the lower end of the cost spectrum for you to consider.

Ruger Mini 14 or (my preference) 30 equipped with a high-quality aftermarket folding stock. Only fly in the ointment is finding reliable high-cap mags.

One of the Norinco "Paratrooper" SKS variants (also sold as the "Cowboy" by NAC) similarly equipped. Uses Ak mags and quite compact.

Rossi/Taurus M-92 in "Trapper" trim, either .357 or .44 Mag (although recoil with full-scoot .44s might be a bit stiff). 16" bbl., 5 1/2#, eight rd capacity, and about 35" OAL. If you want it more compact, there are a couple of shops who do excellent TD conversions on LA rifles and carbines. John Taffin did an article on a couple in "Guns" a while back and they were very impressive. The only name I recall is Cosby Custom; couldn't lay hands on the mag to get both. Not inexpensive, but should be 'way less than a grand all told. Can also be done to Marlin M-94s and 336s, Winchester 94s and 92s.

IMI Timberwolf .357 or .44 Mag pump-action carbine. Kinda rare, but very slick. Fast, accurate, compact, 10 rd cap and QD optics capable OTB.

New Remington 7600 carbine flavor in .223 that uses AR mags. The aftermarket will have a field day with this one if it takes off in the LEA/civilian scene.

If you could live with a rimfire, the Browning .22 semi-auto and its Norinco clone have definite merit. Very light, slick and handy. Quite accurate and take down/reassembly is quick and positive. Less than 19" when stowed.

The ubiquitous Ruger 10/22 carbine. With the Butler Creek TD stock/barrel package or a Choate folder and a couple of Steel lips 25 rounders you could do a lot worse, even if you'd have to sneek up real close to poach deer. Impressive firepower and proven reliability.

1911user
September 28, 2005, 02:03 PM
What do you need to shoot at thats more than 100yards away in a self defense situation?

hmmmmmm....they might be shooting at me from over 100 yards away???? :rolleyes:

rbernie
September 28, 2005, 02:40 PM
they might be shooting at me from over 100 yards away???? In which case I'm moving and communicating rather than shooting. I mean, let's be real - who's REALLY gonna stand off and play sniper with another armed assailant if there is any other possible choice?

1911user
September 28, 2005, 03:11 PM
I'm not saying 100+ yard shots would be the most common problem (or solution), but to intentionally limit a rifles' capability to 100 yards is not wise IMO. In a lawless situation, the rules change (at least for a short time) and shooting someone who was trying an amateur sniper attempt on myself or family seems easily justified. That doesn't mean I can't move around a bit or get people under cover first.

The premise of this thread is a bit fantastic, but possible and certainly worth pondering.

rbernie
September 28, 2005, 05:45 PM
The premise of this thread is a bit fantastic, but possible and certainly worth pondering.The premise that has been built out of this thread is that someone is going to find themelves in a SHTF situation that will require that they publicly remove and assemble a long weapon from a backpack while under fire from an assailant that's at least 100 yards away, and subsequently return fire upon completion of the weapon's assembly.

In the harsh glare of reality, do you REALLY believe that's 'possible and certainly worth pondering'?

Andrew S
September 28, 2005, 06:23 PM
The premise that has been built out of this thread is that someone is going to find themelves in a SHTF situation that will require that they publicly remove and assemble a long weapon from a backpack while under fire from an assailant that's at least 100 yards away, and subsequently return fire upon completion of the weapon's assembly.

In the harsh glare of reality, do you REALLY believe that's 'possible and certainly worth pondering'?


Not to mention if the person is 100yrds away they are likely to be firing that first shot well before you identify them as a threat or even notice their presence.

And unless they do fire that first shot its going to be hard to convince someone else it was a self defense situation with that kind of distance.

If the original poster gives us a better idea of his goals/worries maybe we can figure this out a bit better. Until then I say go with the Kel-Tec Sub2000. Hicap glock mags are cheap and easy to acquire now.

bad LT
September 28, 2005, 07:03 PM
What do you need to shoot at thats more than 100yards away in a self defense situation?


Um, if I were hungry and I say a deer was at a 150 yards....

ummm, venison :neener:

1911user
September 28, 2005, 08:01 PM
The premise that has been built out of this thread is that someone is going to find themelves in a SHTF situation that will require that they publicly remove and assemble a long weapon from a backpack while under fire from an assailant that's at least 100 yards away, and subsequently return fire upon completion of the weapon's assembly.

In the harsh glare of reality, do you REALLY believe that's 'possible and certainly worth pondering'?

My assumption is the carbine will not remain in the backpack all of the time, but it must be capable of being carried in the backpack and deployed relatively quickly. I do think that's worth pondering. If you don't, that's OK.

What caused me jump back in was the idea (not yours) that one would NEVER want to return fire at someone over 100 yards away and should therefore limit the weapon choices to pistol-caliber carbines (also not rbernie's statement). Never is very limiting and I choose not to limit tactics without a good reason. A rifle-caliber carbine could meet the requirements and give more options (like shooting a deer).

EDIT: clarification about selecting a pistol-caliber carbine

rbernie
September 28, 2005, 09:00 PM
should therefore limit the weapon choices to pistol-caliber carbines. I never suggested that in this thread. I *did* suggest that the idea of needing to carry a long rifle in a concealed manner to deal with SHTF situations was a bit of a fantasy. I still believe that to be true. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. That's OK.

For what it's worth, I tote a long gun in a rifle chambering with me on a daily basis. It's in my vehicle, and that's where I'll find it when I need it. I have no illusions of getting so far from my vehicle in a SHTF situation that I can't fight my way back to it (so to speak) with my pistol. That's all I saying. Needing to tote the rifle with me in some break-down form strikes me as a bit, ah, over the top.

Different strokes, and all that.

student
September 28, 2005, 09:58 PM
For what it's worth, I tote a long gun in a rifle chambering with me on a daily basis. It's in my vehicle, and that's where I'll find it when I need it. I have no illusions of getting so far from my vehicle in a SHTF situation that I can't fight my way back to it (so to speak) with my pistol. That's all I saying. Needing to tote the rifle with me in some break-down form strikes me as a bit, ah, over the top.

We are all entitled to our opinion...that is what makes this discussion worthwhile. Snide remarks denegrating others ideas is not what makes this worthwhile.
That said, I hope you never break down away from home and have to explain to an unfamiliar cop that you have a rifle (especially if it looks militaristic) in your vehicle and you now must haul it around with you while the vehicle is being towed/repaired. That wouldn't be the end of the world, but out of site is out of their mind and would avoid trouble. What if you had to evacuate to somewhere and ran out of gas (I am sure that would not in happen in Texas) and had too go ahead on foot. At least where I am concerned, a concealed weapon is always better in the far more likely non-combat situation (I hope the Chinese aren't invading this week). Who will be more likely to be shot, a guy with a rifle in his hands or a guy with a backpack? I personally don't have fantasies about whipping this thing out to take head shots at long range targets. My CCW pistol would suffice for reactive close encounters. But if I need my rifle I can get it, if it becomes a liability it can disappear. It is just a convenience thing. My favorite rifle doesn't do this, so I compromise. I have previously heard comments like "the only place for my rifle in SHTF is in my hands". But SHTF is not usually a black or white event that can be predicted, I want my response to be as flexible.

JShirley
September 28, 2005, 11:15 PM
On the one hand, the chances of needing to take over 100 meter shots may be slim. OTOH, we saw a situation just a few weeks ago, in New Orleans, where snipers were repeatedly (sometimes for days at intermittent intervals) firing at passerby. In such a situation, it would be entirely possible to not be able to easily evade, but have a pressing need to suppress or eliminate a threat at over 100 meters- and we just saw it happen.

John

ctdonath
September 28, 2005, 11:33 PM
Needing to tote the rifle with me in some break-down form strikes me as a bit, ah, over the top.In a "bug-out" situation I'd find a breakdown rifle very handy: if travelling on foot, situations may necessitate carrying inconspicuously over instant deployment. I've spent $60 on a minimal-sized inconspicuous soft case for my AR15; I've found it easier to transport it broken down in a shorter duffel bag. Putting it together takes a minute; answering "what's that" may take hours.

To each their own (haven't found an ideal yet).

mec360
September 29, 2005, 12:13 AM
Here is an interesting solution that doesn't require that the rifle take-down:

http://tadgear.com/x-treme%20gear/packs%20main/gs05m_gunslinger.htm

A less concealed version:

http://tadgear.com/x-treme%20gear/packs%20main/f_a_s_t__pack_alpha.htm
Scroll all the way down to the bottom pictures.

As an alternative, personally I would consider a powerful revolver if I needed to carry a firearm in a backpack (I'm assuming you would also be carrying some sort of CCW piece); an 8 3/8" .44 mag with a scope, or if you really need range and power, a .460 or .500 S&W X-frame with a scope. Not a rapid fire tacticool solution, but faster and handier than putting a take-down rifle together. It just depends on what you want to accomplish. Obviously you are going to want to avoid any sort of firefight in any emergency situation, especially if you are trying to get from here to there in a situation where you don't want to carry a firearm visibly, and most especially if you are traveling alone.

antarti
September 29, 2005, 12:01 PM
Why not a scoped revolver in .44 mag in addition to your CCW piece?

Would seem to offer hard-hitting and accurate (but slow) fire out to 150 yds for food gathering or other chores. Easily concealable and 'splainable.

I'd like to have an entire arsenal with me at all times, but it's just not realistic. A hicap CCW piece with spare mags, plus the aforementioned revolver would be as compact as possible, and still not leave you high-and-dry if someone were behind cover at < 150 yds. A pistol caliber carbine isn't likely to punch through much cover at that range. I doubt the .223 is much of a penetrator out there either.

Hell, a Savage striker in 308 or the short 300 mag, with LER scope might be a good choice, for that matter. Even a lightly armored target won't present a problem, and neither will hitting it. A bolt action or revolver-action anything won't raise too many eyebrows.

Shalako
September 29, 2005, 02:51 PM
That scoped pistol idea is a good one.

This thread is starting to get my mind going on the possibilities. Back during the DC Sniper craziness I started considering the need for a close at hand long gun or scoped highpower pistol in case that insanity started up near me.

What about the classic gun in a guitar case? You could fit about anything in an electric guitar case and not look to conspicuous, especially if you have a feathered eighties hairdo ( :D )

I believe I could really rely on my 1894c in Bad Times. I can fairly reliably hit coke cans at 100 yards using a field rest with .38 specials. I know a .357 would give much better results down range than that and take me out to maybe 200 yds.

If the 1894c could fit in, say, a pool cue case, it would be quite awesome in your proposed role.

bad LT
September 29, 2005, 05:33 PM
A nice lever action that breaks down is a very good idea. Who other than Wild West Guns makes them?

My only real problem with them is that most lever action rifles take a rather long time to load. (Come on Savage, please make some more take-down model 99's).

Onslaught
September 29, 2005, 06:35 PM
I never suggested that in this thread. I *did* suggest that the idea of needing to carry a long rifle in a concealed manner to deal with SHTF situations was a bit of a fantasy. I still believe that to be true. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. That's OK.
In July, I would have agreed with you...

Until I read a news article about a group of tourists in New Orleans that, although originally strangers, had banded together because the remaining "locals" were preying heavily on them because they stood out so obviously as tourists, and were stuck without vehicles or any place to go.

Here is an interesting solution that doesn't require that the rifle take-down:
Dude, that's a drag bag for sniper rifles. EVERYBODY's gonna know what you're packing. ;) But thank you for taking the time to contribute nonetheless.

My thoughts... Even if God himself guaranteed me that I would NEVER have to defend myself at a range greater than 100 meters, I would STILL prefer the significant power increase of a rifle over a pistol caliber... But that's just me.

Ultimately, I'm with SpookyPistolero and others in my personal setup. When possible, I CCW. My vehicle has a well mounted Versa-vault to store my pistol when necessary, but allows instant access. Here again, I considered this next part complete fantasy until Katrina, but IF by some extreme stretch, I actually needed more than 26 rounds of .40, I will be adding a Ruger Mini-14 folder with factory 20 round mags as an option for my every day vehicle setup. When we travel, I can cable the little Mini through the open action and directly to the mounts under my back seat. The action is so big, I can use REALLY thick coated cable and as large and tough of a lock as I want...

It's not quick access, but it's something to "fight to" with my Glock.

Gosh, now I'm embarrassed just saying that out loud. I'm one of "them" now. :cool:

spartacus2002
September 29, 2005, 07:21 PM
Paratrooper SKS with folding stock.

1911user
September 29, 2005, 07:31 PM
Unless converted to US made (replace 7 parts, not trivial to do on an SKS), a folding stock SKS could be serious legal trouble if a DA or the ATF wanted to seriously mess up your future. My guess is that there are very few SKSs with folding stocks that are legal. For a backpack rifle like this, I'd want to make sure it was in a legal configuration given the potential exposure after a shooting. FWIW, I've also heard that the folding stocks available for an SKS are mostly junk and not something you'd want to rely upon in a serious situation.

carebear
September 29, 2005, 07:32 PM
.30 Carbine in a folder wouldn't be bad either.

rbernie
September 29, 2005, 07:39 PM
When possible, I CCW. Yup

will be adding a Ruger Mini-14 folder with factory 20 round mags as an option for my every day vehicle setup Yup

It's not quick access, but it's something to "fight to" with my Glock. Exactly my point all along. Being able to CCW a break-down rifle is a nice idea until it bumps up against the reality of being able to actually find such a beast, package it, have it with you wherever you go, and then be in a position to deploy it when needed. What Onslaught just said is exactly what I've tried to say all along with an obvious lack of success.

Trunk guns are good. CCW is good. Use CCW, concealment, cover, and wits to get to trunk if needed. Everything else presumes too much to be reasonable, IMO.

student
September 29, 2005, 09:17 PM
Another idea could be a Contender type pistol for a rifle caliber, accurate with possibly more penetration than pistol caliber, if not slow and loud.

nipprdog
September 29, 2005, 10:12 PM
how about this...

http://www.riflestock.com/images/Products/Folding_Sniper_Stock.jpg

Choate folding stock. cut barrel to 16&1/2"

http://www.riflestock.com/catalog_page.cfm?queries_index=index10&ProductCode=36&ProductSubCodeID=203&NewProduct=0

middy
September 30, 2005, 11:31 AM
I don't think it's a bad idea at all, thinking of it as a truck gun that can be toted concealed if the need arises. I think the KelTec SU16 series would be perfect.

Along with a decent backpack it would be a great start to a bug-out bag; just add MREs and survival supplies.

Edited to add: For purely survival situations (no combat or close range defense only) my truck gun might be better. It's a Rossi 2in1 single-shot 20ga/.22lr with some slugs, buck shot, bird shot, and plenty of .22lr. breaks down to about the size of the KelTec SU16, but takes a little longer to assemble. And it's less than $150.

JG
September 30, 2005, 12:23 PM
A nice lever action that breaks down is a very good idea. Who other than Wild West Guns makes them?

Dave Clay, DRC........tad expensive, long wait.

But the final product is a work of art.

Too Many Choices!?
October 1, 2005, 10:41 PM
Will fit in a ,"Travel-type" backpack fairly easily and with softpoint ammo, stopping power is a non issue even out of the short barrel ;) . Put a 10 rounder in it for easier removal from concealment, plus ten rounds of softpoint .223 should either solve the problem, or atleast get you to cover for a reload of a fresh 20 or 30 rounder :). Be sure this would be legal where you stay. I have a concealed carry license(+an AR-15 Pistol) and may have to give this backpack idea a try :evil:. A 10 round mag of softpoints, a 20 or 30 round mag of softpoints, and one 20 or 30 round mag of FMJ,just in case ;), equals 50-70 rounds of mixed ammo that will handle 99.7% of the situations/ranges we could face(especially if you add a red dot)...

Too Many Choices!?

PS-We don't got lions, tigers, or bears here, and the largest predatory animal I have seen was a barn owl that could have taken a GROWN goat if it liked . So my percentage (99.7%)is based on my experience and area fawna, and , as always, YMMV(especially if your area's got lions, tigers, and bears, Oh my! :evil: ).

biere
October 2, 2005, 11:25 PM
For the budget mentioned I like an ak rifle with a folding stock. Personally I am going to get a para fal for my backpack gun.

One thing I find amusing in this thread is that I wonder how some of the folks posting might feel about open carry of a handgun vs. ccw of a handgun.

I have read many posts where folks feel open carry of a handgun makes you a target and brings unwanted attention and what not.

In today's crime ridden world I think it makes a lot of sense to have a gun that fits in a backpack.

I am most likely going to live in an apartment next year. Since I don't trust a light duty safe very much and I don't want to trust insurance to replace my stolen guns I am thinking that the only guns I want at my apartment are my ccw and a rifle I take with me when I leave. I don't want to keep a beater in my truck since it is easy to break into and the apartments I am looking at are not the in the best part of town.

Mostly I will just be in the apartment until I find some land I want to buy and build on. So I can store my guns at a relatives and my junk can go into a storage facility.

Right now I live in the country and at worst I go to the burbs in a low crime area. So a gun in the vehicle is not a big deal. I don't worry about it being broken into at night and what not.

But in a soso area of town I don't want to leave valuables around, replacing a broken window would be bad enough.

One thing I have considered is how "open" the gun is when in the bag. I will have a gun case just for it but a break down lever action or a folded gun seems awfully open to me. I prefer an ak or fal with a loaded magazine in it because the mag well is filled and the action can be closed and the only open area is the end of the barrel. But this may just be me.

I have also considered the concept someone mentioned of having my truck break down enough that I can't fix it and I have to have it taken to a shop. It would be nice to not have a long gun in the vehicle at that point unless I had a longgun of the type that easily fit into a backpack and I could just say I had my junk in the backpack as I headed for the waiting room while they worked on the truck.

Another thing I have considered is taking some longer trips on a motorcycle. While it may seem odd I know a few people in other states who happen to like shooting. It would be nice to show up with my own rifle and I could buy some ammo in town and go shooting with my own rifle and handgun rather than having to borrow theirs.

And I agree that in some cases a revolver set up for longer ranges might also be a consideration depending on what you wish to do.

The super redhawk in 454 casull with a 7+ inch barrel and a scope would be plenty for anything I have considered hunting.

For me the back pack fal is simply a way for me to not worry about some criminal taking my gun and making me file a police report about a stolen gun and then having to go deal with my insurance company about that rifle.

mr.trooper
October 2, 2005, 11:43 PM
Why doesnt that AR-15 pistol have a forward assist? thats scary man.

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