How effective would .22 Mag be for antipersonell?


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epijunkie67
September 25, 2005, 11:03 PM
My GF is very very recoil sensitive and we were wondering what kind of rifle to have her train with as a general purpose weapon. She doesn't hunt but has enjoyed her few trips to the range, though mostly with pistols. I have a lever action in .22 mag that is light to carry and easy to shoot. In a SHTF situation do you think this would be effective against close range personal targets or should I try to get her upgraded to something like a pistol cal carbine? I just figured the lever gun has a good capacity and is super easy to shoot so she may like it. Ideas?

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oneshooter
September 25, 2005, 11:14 PM
I would go with a 38/357mag carbine at least. If you reload then start her with light 38's, gradually increasing velocity/recoil.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

ny32182
September 25, 2005, 11:16 PM
AR-15 with a good compensator has very litte recoil.

a 9mm AR with a compensator has even less.

Let her shoot either one if you get the chance, and see what she thinks. I shot a 9mm AR for the first time not long ago, and was really shocked at how little the gun moved.

SpookyPistolero
September 26, 2005, 12:09 AM
Well, most things die with a good head shot. Under stress, however, this is difficult or sometimes impossible so we opt for other calibers like .308 or 7.62x39. I wouldn't set yourself up so a life depends on stopping someone with a .22 mag.

Recoil is usually beaten after a healthy dose of range experience. Is she a brand new shooter? Keep taking her out. And make sure you double up on the hearing protection with muffs and plugs. That will do a lot in and of itself. I also would suggest, as other posters have, a .357 (.38 special) levergun if she's already comfortable with that platform, and AR if you can afford it or an M1 carbine. Just acclimatize her over time and it should work itself out.

Byron
September 26, 2005, 12:26 AM
The 22 mag would be a good choice if she spends time. Yes, there are other better cartridges as listed. She is recoil sensitive and I would not force her to go to something heavier. Practice is the key. Proficency and ability to hit will be her key. Byron

esldude
September 26, 2005, 01:44 AM
22 Mag would probably work alright. But accuracy and making several hits on the target are called for when needed.

I do think a 9mm carbine would be better. And still not at all likely to bother even recoil shy people. Ruger PC9 is a good choice for what you need.

Believe it or not some recoil shy folks are bothered by AR and Mini 14 recoil. I have seen them. Also often loudness is a part of what bothers recoil shy shooters. A .223 is much louder than the 9 mm carbine which is fairly quiet from a 16.5 inch barrel.

ChiefPilot
September 26, 2005, 01:44 AM
Is she recoil or noise sensitive? The .223 has quite a bark, especially when a brake is installed, but pretty negligible recoil especially out of an AR. Using both ear plugs and ear muff hearing protectors, my wife has no problem with my AR. With only one of the two, however, it seems to kick more apparently....

artherd
September 26, 2005, 04:10 AM
Ideas?
Meh, a 7 year old can fire an AR, so I have trouble beliving any grown woman is actually that recoil sensative.

She may however be blast sensative, double up on plugs & muffs.

m0ntels
September 26, 2005, 03:38 PM
Girls seem to think the M1 Carbine is cute :p Big enough for close range baddies, it's light and small, and fairly cheap ammo.

Randy

Sewerman
September 26, 2005, 03:43 PM
.22 magnum is a great round but rimfire ammo doesnt kep well. my wife is 5'4" and 110lbs she has a saiga 7.62x39 and a hi point .40 and hasnt ever complained about recoil. she is however from Texas..... :D

Don't Tread On Me
September 26, 2005, 03:48 PM
I am a firm believer that ANY gun is better than no gun. I shun the idea of some people to insist on heavier calibers for recoil sensitive people. This always leads to them quitting or not using that weapon.



If 22mag is all she'll ever use, well that's fine. It will definately ruin someone's day or life. A headshot with that is fantastic - instant stopper. A semi-auto 22mag like a Ruger can deliver quite a few shots with zero muzzle rise in a short span of time. Any woman can spray down an attacker with 9 shots of 22mag all to the body in just seconds. There is no one who's going to eat that and keep coming for more.


Now, this isn't to say you shouldn't try something more powerful. An AR-15 with commercial loads and light bullets and a comp has virtually no recoil. 55 grain ammo at 2750fps doesn't kick much, it barely moves the rifle.


I've found the M1 carbine to kick more than some AR's. I don't have much experience with 9mm carbines - if they are even less than the 223 AR with commercial loads, go that route.


If 22mag is the only choice, don't worry. 1900fps in a lever action is nothing to sneaze at. People who bash it aren't exactly volunteering to stand infront of one. The best weapon will be the one she will practice with, the one she will enjoy.

When a woman enjoys a gun, she likes it. When she likes it, she trusts it. When she trusts it - she'll use it better. A body shot with 22mag is superior to a miss with an AK. Women, when they know a gun kicks or is too harsh for them, will always flinch or anticipate it going off. Accuracy dies, and with that goes any chance for scoring hits.

Art Eatman
September 26, 2005, 04:56 PM
Let the lady learn to shoot and become proficient. With time and experience, she can learn about other types of rifles and more powerful cartridges. At some point on down the road, she can find her limit as to a "comfort zone" with weight of rifle, noise and recoil.

:), Art

MudPuppy
September 26, 2005, 05:40 PM
Actually, a 6 year old can fire a AR. Mine does. :D

But, a 22 mag is a light round, but has some good velocity. I'd agree it would be good to move up when she's comfortable, but you don't want to make it unpleasant.

In my opinion, out of the three evil rifles I own, the G3 in 308 has the least felt recoil, followed by the AR in 223, with the AK seeming to kick the hardest in 7.62x39. That's not at all scientific, just the way it "feels" to me.

But, a 22 mag can kill people deader than hell--pop 'em a couple of extra if you need to.

berettashotgun
September 26, 2005, 06:22 PM
A 22mag is an excellent choice for many,many people. Most folks don't realize how powerful that little bullet is, especially a 40gr hp. I grew up shooting a 22 hornet and being the deliquent I was, well let's say that it'll kill a deer pretty easily. A 22mag isn't far behind, if at all with most of the newer ( on the market) ammo. I think it'll work in a pinch, STILL I'd think more is better~but recoil shy dictates what you have to use. Did you ask her if recoil matters in a life or death senario? :eek:

epijunkie67
September 26, 2005, 07:41 PM
Did you ask her if recoil matters in a life or death senario?

Nope, cause thats not going to matter. If she won't practice with it BEFORE the life or death senario then she's never going to hit with it during the life or death senario.

This is the same woman who once said "I'll never have a gun in this house" who now encourages me to buy new guns AND requested I put one near the front door. I tried her out on every pistol I own and she even found the .32 to be "unpleasent" due to recoil. She didn't even like my 4" steel frame .357 shooting light .38 fmj target loads. The gun she decided she DID like? My FN57. Hell of a muzzle blast but no recoil. It has now become her gun and she keeps it by her side of the bed since I work nights frequently.

I wish they made a more conventional rifle that accepted the pistol mags for that round. That didn't cost $1300 like the P90 is going to cost....

R.H. Lee
September 26, 2005, 07:46 PM
Is she recoil sensitive or muzzle blast sensitive? The .22 mags are really loud, even out of a long gun.

355sigfan
September 26, 2005, 07:59 PM
Heck why not a pellet gun. All kidding aside the 22 mag is not a viable option if she can't handle anything bigger she is better off without a gun and running. A 22 mag will just piss off the attacker. Unless you hit him in the eye ball. The 5n7 is also a piss poor pistol for self defense. It has about 240 footpounds only penetrates about 8 to 9 inches. She has the potential to shoot real guns get her some instruction.
Pat

The Real Hawkeye
September 26, 2005, 08:19 PM
Heck why not a pellet gun. All kidding aside the 22 mag is not a viable option if she can't handle anything bigger she is better off without a gun and running. A 22 mag will just piss off the attacker. Unless you hit him in the eye ball.This is an exaggeration. Actually, even a .22 Long Rifle out of a 16 inch barrel is traveling pretty fast, and a shot to the chest cavity would stop all but the most determined attacker. Keep in mind also that a 55 grain .223 bullet fired out of a standard length barrel, at 400 yards is hitting with less energy than a 40 grain .22 Magnum at point blank range. It's 296 foot pounds for the .223 at 400 yards and well over 300 foot pounds for the .22 Mag at point blank range. Extend the range to 25 or 50 yards, and its just a little less than the .223 at 400 yards. Keep in mind also that the "effective" antipersonnel range of the 55 grain 223 out of a standard length M16 barrel has been determined to be 400 yards. That would suggest that the .22 Mag has an effective antipersonnel range of about 50 yards. Not bad. She would not be poorly armed with a .22 Mag carbine that she knows how to use.

1911user
September 26, 2005, 09:34 PM
With the 22 mag, load solid bullet ammo. I'm not sure a HP bullet from a 22 mag would penetrate deep enough.

An M1 carbine might be a good choice, but drill out the rear peep sight to be closer to a ghost ring configuration. A lever-action carbine in 357 or 44 would also be good. Those can be retrofitted with a ghost ring rear peep.

epijunkie67
September 26, 2005, 09:57 PM
355sigfan
The 5n7 is also a piss poor pistol for self defense. It has about 240 footpounds only penetrates about 8 to 9 inches.

I'm sure the lousy performance is why various departments and units around the world are trading in their 9mm for the 57. Because FN is in the habit of investing buttloads of cash creating and fielding a weapons system specifically for personal defense that's no more effective than a pellet gun.

No, it's not the Hammer of Thor but it sure ain't a bb gun either. And 20 rounds of rapid fire, on target, no muzzle rise ammo is going to make any perp question his desire to continue his forward advance.

Now if I could cram 20 rounds of .308 into a pistol and eliminate the recoil I'd rather she use that. But until then I think she should use what she's comfortable with.

355sigfan
September 26, 2005, 10:04 PM
I'm sure the lousy performance is why various departments and units around the world are trading in their 9mm for the 57. Because FN is in the habit of investing buttloads of cash creating and fielding a weapons system specifically for personal defense that's no more effective than a pellet gun.
END QUOTE

Actually check the stats not many departments are. In fact I would have to look hard to fine one. They were tested in our state by the larger agencies sert teams and rejected. Take a look at the IWBA and Dr. Facklers comments on the 5N7. Its not pretty. The only advantage it has is soft body armor penetration and you can get 9mm ammo that does that if you want. Its a better round from the P90 but from the pistol its a joke. 40 grain V Max (civilian load) is averaging 1650 with this caliber thats a 22 mag rifle round basically. And not many people I know would trust their lives to the stopping power of a 22 mag.


QUOTE

Keep in mind also that the "effective" antipersonnel range of the 55 grain 223 out of a standard length M16 barrel has been determined to be 400 yards. That would suggest that the .22 Mag has an effective antipersonnel range of about 50 yards. Not bad. She would not be poorly armed with a .22 Mag carbine that she knows how to use.
END QUOTE

Actually that is bad considering the poor reports the 223 gets at long range. Its an excellent fight stopper inside 200 yards but as the range exends it becomes a little 22 ice pick not doing much damage. No offense but its a poor idea to use a 22 mag for self defense.
Pat

ChiefPilot
September 26, 2005, 10:26 PM
Keep in mind also that a 55 grain .223 bullet fired out of a standard length barrel, at 400 yards is hitting with less energy than a 40 grain .22 Magnum at point blank range. It's 296 foot pounds for the .223 at 400 yards

A .223 has a bit more than that - my ballistics software tells me it should have 464 ft pounds of energy at 400 yards after leaving the barrel at 3100 ft/sec. 5.56 has over 500 ft/lbs at the same distance, leaving at 3250 ft/sec.

You must be using Wolf ammo ;)

I second the M1 carbine - they're awesome! Light, quick, low recoil and plenty-o-power for defensive needs under 150 yds.

Hawkmoon
September 27, 2005, 12:42 AM
All kidding aside the 22 mag is not a viable option if she can't handle anything bigger she is better off without a gun and running. A 22 mag will just piss off the attacker. Unless you hit him in the eye ball.
Oh, come on. This statement is so far off the mark it isn't even marginally credible.

I wouldn't choose to get shot with even a .22LR. I think a woman who is recoil sensitive would be well-served by a .22 mag. I think I'd probably address the penetration issue by loading with alternating round nose and hollow point rounds. At the distances likely to be encountered in a self defense situation, I think an attacker would have something to think about beyind just being p!ssed off.

cracked butt
September 27, 2005, 01:03 AM
All kidding aside the 22 mag is not a viable option if she can't handle anything bigger she is better off without a gun and running. A 22 mag will just piss off the attacker. Unless you hit him in the eye ball.

Probably the dumbest thing I read all week. Just how long is someone going to be 'pissed off' with a hole through their head or through their boiler room. If you don't think a .22Magnum or .22LR can't penetrate a skull or sternum, think again. Academics aside, I've seen what a .22 will penetrate. We used to butcher a coupel of pigs a year. The method we used was a pistol bullet through the forehead. We had .38 spc bullets that didn't penetrate. A .22LR even from a pistol always penetrated. If a .22LR can penetrate a skull of a 300 lb hog and cause a rapid death, it certainly will do the same to a human.

I'd rather have my wife defending herself with a 10/22 that she could shoot than a .44 magnum that she's afraid of.

roscoe
September 27, 2005, 01:06 AM
I agree - the .22 mag is underrated out of a rifle, especially at self-defense distances. If she is comfortable with the rifle, it sounds like a match. I recommend CCI MaxiMag ammunition.

355sigfan
September 27, 2005, 01:10 AM
Probably the dumbest thing I read all week. Just how long is someone going to be 'pissed off' with a hole through their head or through their boiler room.

END QUOTE

Whats stupid is someone would actually consider arming themselves with a 22 mag for self defense. People have taken far more serious rounds in multiple quanities and not stopped. The 22 mag lacks the power to stop determined attackers outside of a head shot. Thats the facts like it or not.
Pat

meef
September 27, 2005, 01:21 AM
A quote I always sorta liked......

"I'd rather be missed by a .44 magnum than hit by a .22LR."

:rolleyes:

355sigfan
September 27, 2005, 01:28 AM
Thats true but there is no reason for any able bodied female or male not to be able to handle a 223 carbine or something simular. Their very easy to shoot and offer much more than a small game round like the 22 mag. I would not let someone I cared about carry a 22 mag for self defense. Heck even a pistol caliber carbine (A class of firearm I hate) in 9mm or 45 acp would be far better and they recoil about like a 22. There is no sane reason to pick a 22 mag.
Pat

killzone
September 27, 2005, 01:28 AM
You would be amazed some of the air guns in the market that are as powerful as a 22 would be. The one I got for my wife is the Airforce Thalon Over a 1000 Fps and very low recoil...take a look at it ..... You'll like it,. :cool:

cracked butt
September 27, 2005, 01:33 AM
The 22 mag lacks the power to stop determined attackers outside of a head shot. Thats the facts like it or not.
OMG, this is starting to sound like a typical discussion on a hunting forum...

Me: "a .243 is perfectly adequate for hunting deer"
The-guy-who-never-shot-anything-flesh-and-bone-who-gets-his-information-from-huinting-publications: "No way! a .243 doesn't have enough energy to kill a deer, you need something in a .300 WSM or bigger for the job, I mean what if you don't make a good shot and hit him in the hindquarters instead of the heart under all of that stressssss!"

:rolleyes:

355sigfan
September 27, 2005, 01:43 AM
No its like someone in the hunting form saying a 22 lr for deer.
Pat

chopinbloc
September 27, 2005, 03:01 AM
american 180 :evil:

mmike87
September 27, 2005, 02:42 PM
Start her with a regular .22 and take advantage of the cheaper ammo to practice more. In time, she'll be able to naturally move up to larger guns. When she gets to that point you can save the .22 for a range plinker.

chipp
October 9, 2005, 05:01 PM
I read in a Gun Mag that they use a 22Mag for small game in africa (up to 60 lbs.) Sounds pretty Powerful to me.
Whats the difference anyway let het shoot what she wants.
If its in her she will shoot bigger guns. Hell my wife wont shoot anything.

Vern Humphrey
October 9, 2005, 05:11 PM
Carbine Williams' swan song was a .22 Magnum machinegun. He demonstrated it to the Army, and the Army decision makers happened to be sober that day and didn't buy it. :neener:

DMK
October 9, 2005, 05:33 PM
If it were my girlfriend, who was recently converted from a non-shooter, I'd get her whatever she likes. Take her to the gunstore and let her try some things for size and feel. Get her a 22LR or a 22Mag, whatever, as long as it's her own gun and she likes shooting it. Take her to the range and encourage her, but let her ease into it and get some enjoyable practice. Don't try and make a commando or sniper out of her. I see guys put all kinds of pressure on women at the range, trying to make them shoot well. You can tell she isn't having fun. First concentrate on just getting her comfortable with guns and enjoy spending quality time sharing your hobby with her

After a while, pick up an pistol caliber carbine or AR and you shoot it when you two go to the range. Let her see how much fun you are having with it. When she's comfortable (she'll let you know when she's ready), let her try it periodically. If she does like it, either give that one to her, or let her pick out one of her own. If she doesn't like it, don't push it.

It's much better she shoots a .22 then doesn't shoot at all. Even just practice exclusively with such a small gun will give her the skills to pick up bigger rifle and hit with it if necessary.

rdkngrydr
October 11, 2005, 03:18 PM
That maxi-mag is quite a round... 50gr Speer gold dot bullet. That should give good penitration + expansion ...

goon
October 11, 2005, 04:28 PM
Another vote for the .22 Magnum. Although I doubt that anyone would be making or ever attempting headshots in a defense situation, I have no doubt that getting hit with several .22 Mag bullets in the chest would be a very bad and painful thing. If nothing else, I would rather go hand to hand with an attacker who was shot full of .22 caliber holes than with a healthy attacker.
You may also try moving her up to a .410 or 20 gauge. I was recently in a situation with a recoil sensitive female shooter. She was intimidated by anything heavier than a .22 LR in either a rifle or handgun. What we did (myself, my brother, and a friend of mine) was just keep loading up mags for the guns she felt comfortable with and sort of "force" her to shoot. After she was comfortable with the rimfires we started basically handing her anything we thought she could handle. After some time she was OK with .410 and 20 gauge shotguns as well as some 7.62x39 training ammo and some reduced 7.62x39 loads that I worked up specifically for her. She was also OK shooting my Kahr P9 and my brother's 9mm 1911 as well as standard .38 specials from an SP-101. Last time she shot with us she was banging away with 123 grain 7.62x39 Ulyanovsk FMJ ammo in my SKS and loving it.
I would say start with a .22 LR since it is cheaper to shoot. She can shoot it alot, and if she likes shooting she will. After that, move up a little at at time.

MDHunter
October 11, 2005, 04:41 PM
355Sig,

I gotta disagree on both counts you mention above (too lazy to use quotes, so bear with me). A .22 mag is certainly better than a knife or a bat, so if that's what she's comfy with right now, she's in better shape than a lot of men and women who are afraid of guns and resort to the ball bat over the head method of self defense!

And I certainly wouldn't wanna stand in front of MY .22 mag, I've seen what it can do to small game (squirrel, fox, etc) at distances out to 100 yards. You put a .22 mag JHP in somebody's boiler room, they're not gonna have a lot of "determined" left in them.....especially if you give them more than one!

And the .22 long rifle has killed many more deer than we'll ever know, to feed poor families during the depression and later.....my father killed several deer with a .22, didn't wound/lose any, and the bullets back in the 40s were nothing like the bullets we have today. Sure it's not a deer caliber, but it can certainly kill deer, and could kill a person as well.

Epijunkie, support her shooting the .22 mag, and maybe over time she'll get comfy enuf to try something bigger (with support, but not pressure, from you). The most important thing is that she has a gun she likes to shoot, that's the best any of us can ask!

Michael

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