[cpileri]

Help me out here.
I consider myself pretty well-versed in the laws and not too dimwitted in general, ok.
But, hear me out on this seemingly dimwitted question:

Would a double barrel shotgun that only had one trigger and fired BOTH barrels at a single trigger pull be considered a machine gun and otherwise fall under the NFA34?

I ask because:
"...any weapon which shoots, ...automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger..."

So one trigger pull, 2 shots without reloading in between= machine gun????

Nevermind that it was one from each barrel, and that you have to manually reload after that.

Just curious?

C-

[Greg L]

One trigger squeeze shoots both at the same instant or one trigger has two positions that will fire each individual barrel when reached (that could be done with one squeeze but is two distinct shots)? In the first I have no idea. The second would be similar to a gattling gun. Even though multiple shots are fired per revolution of the crank, each one is a seperate shot as long as you are providing the power/cranking (no hooking up a power drill) & thus not a MG.

My 2% of a $ fwiw....

[Old Fuff]

Usually a double-barreled shotgun either has two triggers that fire the barrels seperately, or a single trigger that fires one barrel and then the trigger resets to fire the second one when the trigger is released and then pulled again.

To fire both barrels with one pull on the trigger would require either a defective trigger system, or a modification. If the trigger system was modified so that it would fire both barrels at once I suppose the BATF&E might give the case a hard look.

If this was a 12-bore or larger I don't think I'd want to be the shooter ... :what:

[Art Eatman]

Hmmm. Interesting. Most thinking about full-auto is that the machinery cycles between each shot when the trigger is held back.

Dunno about a simultaneous discharge of two barrels. Even though there are two barrels, only one event occurs.

A bureaucrat would probably call such a deal a "machine gun". I wouldn't. :D

My father spoke of his early days with his father's double-barrel 12-gauge. Sometimes both barrels would unexpectedly fire when pulling one trigger. That's rough on a ten-year-old kid.

Art

[junyo]

For all intents and porposes you're talking about a volley gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volley_gun). I've always heard on them as the forerunners to modern machine guns, so I'd guess that they probably would be considered a machine gun.

[Chrontius]

Interesting idea, one I was kicking around for my 'quarter pounder' concept. I was fond of it because it would put a fhuge amount of lead in the air very quickly with a very robust mechanism.

[Hkmp5sd]

I would say it is not a machinegun for the same reason a gatlin gun (especially one of those Ruger quad-setups, which you could set up to fire all 4 receivers at once instead of in sequence) isn't a machinegun. Each shell is fired from an independent barrel. You get one round per operation of the mechanism (trigger and/or crank) per barrel. You cannot get a second round fired without manually reloading each barrel.

[KriegHund]

without manual reloading

Since you have to reload both barrels it shoudnt be too much of an issue. Plus both barrels are discharged simaltaniously and thus could be considered a single barrel.

Also, is it a double action trigger? Or do you need to cock the hammers for each of the barrels?

[Too Many Choices!?]

Not even if both barrels fired AND relaoded themselves semi-automaticly, would this fall under the NFA. The Multiple barrles(of legal length) on one reciever is not a MG as defined, regardess of the fact that both fire off the same trigger or even at the same time...It would have to reload AND fire a second shot(from the same or a different barrel) with only one trigger pull. Since the second barrel might as well be a second firearm, it is not a MG :)...Now if you had a double rifle/shotgun(.22 over a 270 or side double barrel), if it fired one barrel and then the second AFTER the first, without releasing the trigger, that would be a no no. I think all shotguns are MG though....Each type(save slug guns) launch multiple projectiles with a single function of the trigger :confused: ...

[dakotasin]

old fuff- i have an old ithaca that has picked up the rude habit of doubling w/ a single trigger pull (and sometimes w/ no trigger pull)... it is a 12 ga, and i certainly do not appreciate the doubling, but, it really isn't that bad. of course, i don't particularly enjoy carrying defective guns around, so it will have to visit a 'smith in the near future...

[Old Fuff]

That's not too unusual, but it is a bit unsettling, and you should look at it from the bird's point of view ... :what:

Be sure you take it to a GOOD 'smith. Those triggers can be a bit touchy to fix.

[scbair]

Hmmmm.... So, if I locate an old 4-barreled COP .357 magnum, I can have the rotating firing pin replaced with a solid, single-thickness disk, and unleash 4 magnums with one pull of the trigger? :what:

Even if BATFE didn't come after me, I'm afraid the men in the white coats would! :scrutiny:

[m39fan]

Great idea! My grandpa left me an old 10ga. double that did this every third time you pulled the trigger. Mucho fun (for onlookers!). With the gas prices being what they are at any given minute, you could save money by traveling this way. Of course, you would have to measure the distance you want to travel (work, store, emergency room, etc.) and then figure out how many shots it would take to get you there. You might have to carry more than one gauge to fine tune your travel otherwise you might "overshoot" your target destination! :D :D :D

I'd say I couldn't resist but that wouldn't be true. I could have, but what fun would that be? :D :p

Take Care,
Mike

[Third_Rail]

Note the lack of volleygun repros, even in black powder. The ATFE apparently scared makers away from doing them.

[GunGoBoom]

"...any weapon which shoots, ...automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger..."

By THAT definition, YES it most certainly is a machine gun. That is the result of the plain English reading of it. So, IF that is the correct applicable definition, then yes the feds would charge you if they are in a bad mood, and they could succeed. I doubt they would give 2 flips however, unless they just didnt' like you, or thought you were an enemy combatant in the war on some drugs.

double-barrel 12-gauge. Sometimes both barrels would unexpectedly fire when pulling one trigger. That's rough on a ten-year-old kid.

I'd say! :what:

[cpileri]

Still sounds like my hypothetical shotgun/volley gun would be a 'machine gun' to the feds.

In fact, i was specifically thinking also about the COP 4-shot derringer if it were modded to fire all barrels at once. It would be a 'machine gun' as well by the definition!

nevermind the hand surgery bills.


Hey you could use that infamous SHOESTRING and affix it to the trigger of the COP derringer and the other end to the stock of the volley/shot gun, then mount them such that the recoil of the volley/shot gun pulls the shoestring and fires the COP. Now its 6 shots at one trigger pull, from 6 barrels... but does the shoestring mean you just simultaneously fired THREE machineguns???

BWAAAAAHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

Anyway, if left black powder out of it since I figured they were exempt. But cartridge arms... still sound like Agent Schmuckatelli with PMS will go after you!

C-

[Omni04]

this is a VERY thought provacative thread!

"more than one shot" do you think you would be able to say it is still one shot (one boom, one jerk, one trigger pull) and the fact that 2 slugs are coming out are irrelevant? (im a shotgun newbie so i apologize for my lack of shotgun vocabulary) I know slugs shoot out one big slug, and birdshot(?) scatters into several pellets. So with a birdshot, you are still firing out several things with one trigger pull. Maybe this would be the same situation.

[DeseoUnTaco]

Would a double barrel shotgun that only had one trigger and fired BOTH barrels at a single trigger pull be considered a machine gun and otherwise fall under the NFA34?
AFAIK, the answer is a simple "yes". May not be the answer you like, may not "feel right", but that's the answer.

Some state laws have their own definitions of MGs which exclude double-barrel shotguns.

On a side note, I think double-barrel guns are cool and I would like to buy one someday.

[Telperion]

I would concur that it would be "machinegun" according to the law. It wouldn't be the first semantic contradiction in the NFA: a smoothbore pistol is no longer "pistol" but an "any other weapon".

I imagine if you rigged a COP to fire all four barrels at once, there wouldn't be much of a gun left. :uhoh:

[StopTheGrays]

So...when John Kerry was low crawling on his belly, stalking deer with his trusty double bbl shotgun, he was in fact using a machine gun!!! :what:

Does Brady, VPC, AGS, MMM and any or hoplophobe group know that?


On the other hand if Kerry did use a MG for hunting deer he should not have a problem with me using a semi-auto rifle that can carry more than 10+ rounds either. :)

Riiigggghhhhttt, I will not hold my breath.

[cpileri]

OK, so a 9-pellet load of buckshot is still a machine gun under the definition, right? One trigger pull, 9 projectiles= mg???

Or, since they are all contained in a single cartridge, it is considered one 'shot'.

If that's the case, why not machine up a SINGLE cartridge that looks like a set of reed pipes (a row of 30-06's side by side) or even clumped neatly together, say 1 in the middle surrounded by however many fit around it... maybe 5 or 6.
The case would have to be a shouldered cartridge so that each projectile can fit (imagine the headspace problems!) in its own barrel.
Then at the base is a single, BIG, primer; with a primer anvil shaped like a honeycomb to separate the ignition flame into a separate flame for each of the 30-06's powder charges.
Now, one trigger pull, one shot, and multiple projectiles! but like a shotgun, all from one 'cartridge'!!!

Would my 'reed pipe cartridge' firing rifle be exempt as a shotgun is?

C-

(yes, the creative juices are flowing today. i spent all day doing admin stuff, so my brain is saying 'PLEASE USE ME FOR SOMETHING ELSE!!!')

[DeseoUnTaco]

So...when John Kerry was low crawling on his belly, stalking deer with his trusty double bbl shotgun, he was in fact using a machine gun!!
No, because Sen. Kerry's gun only fired one of the barrels with one trigger pull. If he had somehow modified the trigger mechanism to fire both of them, THEN it would be a MG, and subject to the NFA. Given the BATF's recent ruling on a shoelace, I assume that if you had a double-barrel with two triggers and you bent a paperclip so it would pull both triggers at the same time, that paperclip would then be an NFA MG. Surprise!

As for the other poster's idea about somehow making a super-cartridge that is a bunch of cartridges linked together: I think that if the whole thing could be detonated (sic) with a single primer strike, then it would NOT be a machinegun. I don't know. Such a thing would be just a useless mess of a machine that no one would want for anything other than to tweak the BATF.

And yes, as you point out, the reason why a shotgun with a load of buckshot is not a MG is because it's one "boom" per trigger pull. I assume that one "boom" means "one primer strike which ignites one charge of powder". The number of projectiles that come out from it doesn't matter.

[SRYnidan]

CPILERI

You might check with the folks at Cylinder & Slide.
During the early eighties the made a weapon called and Ermu (I may be wrong about the name) that was basically two Remington 1100 or 870 shotguns (one right and one left hand action) bolted together on a common butt stock. There was a single trigger with a pair of cams on it that actuated the original triggers. They sold some to Second Chance competitors and a few to cops. The only difference is that there would have been 2 serial numbers / receivers if you wish.

Note never fired one but hefted it and you needed to be a real gut to use it (weighed about what and M60 does.

[middy]

It wouldn't be the first semantic contradiction in the NFA
Like, why is it still a "shotgun" if I put a fully rifled barrel on it and shoot slugs out of it? :confused:

[GunGoBoom]

when John Kerry was low crawling on his belly, stalking deer with his trusty double bbl shotgun

LMBO!

[jhog1]

I would like to say hello I have been lurking for some time first time posting there is a lot of great info on here and I wanted to add my 2 cents to this post.
When a double barrel shotgun fires both barrels with one pull of the trigger it is called doubling. Both barrels don't actually fire at the same time, the recoil from the first round releases the defective lock on the second barrel. Even if it was intentional modified to fire both barrels with one pull of the trigger it would not be considered a MG since it is incapable of reloading the chambers "automatically"

[Master Blaster]

What this thread points out is that, the NFA laws are ridiculous.

The BATF has to make a whole bunch of assumptions, artificial constructs, and gyrations, to determine what is or is not technically a machine gun.:barf:

We have the stupid law because some criminals like Bonnie and Clyde, Ma Barker, and Machine Gun Kelly, used surplus machine guns they bought legally, to commit crimes and had the police outgunned. All this happened in the 1930's. So because of the actions of a few criminals, 70+ years ago all of us have had to pay.

If a criminal wants to make a machine gun they have no problem doing so, heck they can even smuggle them in accross the Mexican Border.

But since they are rarely used in crimes, along with silencers, its hardly ever been a problem and there is no practical reason for the laws to exist except to provide employment for a few hundred BATF agents.

[El Tejon]

Actually most machine guns then were stolen from the police.

John Dillinger got several Thompsons, BARs and shotguns from the Warsaw, Indiana police. Threw the Chief down the stairs and helped himself to the armory.

To answer the original question, no, a double barrel shotgun is not a machine gun. However, it may soon be deemed a Destructive Device by the Clinton Administration.:uhoh:

[JWarren]

You might check with the folks at Cylinder & Slide.
During the early eighties the made a weapon called and Ermu (I may be wrong about the name) that was basically two Remington 1100 or 870 shotguns (one right and one left hand action) bolted together on a common butt stock. There was a single trigger with a pair of cams on it that actuated the original triggers. They sold some to Second Chance competitors and a few to cops. The only difference is that there would have been 2 serial numbers / receivers if you wish.


I've seen a similar setup once. If my understanding is correct, those TWO serial numbers makes all the difference in the world.


Regarding a double-barrel firing twice on one trigger pull, it has always been my understanding that the ATF does in fact consider that a machine gun in their techinical definition. It would be enough to charge you if they wanted to, and I for one have no desire to be a test-case.

Before I modified a shotgun or constructed one to do this, you better believe I'd have in writing a ATF letter of clearance.

John

[EMUGOD]

I apologize if there is some rule about thread necromancy here, but i couldn't resist the temptation.

This topic is one that has become very interesting to me since i recently decided to build a volley gun. I have been trying to find the answer to this question, would it be a machine gun, for a few days. a very interesting piece of hardware is the attached picture, an 18x22LR 40mm volley cartridge. this is considered a destructive device like all 40mm rounds, but not a machine gun. It operates exactly like cpileri described.

my question now, that perhaps someone here might know, is what, if anything, legally defines a round of ammunition? i've already looked through the definitions section of the NFA and there is nothing, but perhaps it is in an earlier document? if the primer is not legally required but instead the round can just be activated mechanically, i may be in business!

[natman]

Does the gun described shoot "more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger"?

Yes.

Could it therefore be considered a machine gun?

Yes.

[bamawrx]

This is also similar to the inserts that you can put in a 37mm grenade launcher that will fire something like 9 .22 LR's at once. Its not a machine gun, so it seems that volley weapons are not NFA. I bet if you got too creative with a volley it would be declared a destructive device.

[BhmBill]

Don't try to get smart and find a way around the ATF or the NFA on modern guns.

Firing more than 1 round, without manual reloading, with a single pull of the trigger is considered a machine gun.

About the only thing I can think of would be find yourself a black powder shotgun since they're unregulated, take it to a smith, have it inspected, and see if the smith could indeed do the work you're asking for (firing 2 or more rounds per pull of the trigger)

[trickyrick]

it is up to the determination of batf. they tried to prosecute a guy for having a weapon that fired from an open bolt even tho it only had provisions for one round at a time, i.e. no mag or mag well. i have also heard of them going after guys that had malfunctions in semi autos that went full. why take the chance w/ batf, i was taught.

[AKElroy]

Hmmmm.... So, if I locate an old 4-barreled COP .357 magnum, I can have the rotating firing pin replaced with a solid, single-thickness disk, and unleash 4 magnums with one pull of the trigger?

I doubt the COP was designed to handle the pressure of all 4 barrels firing at once. I'd like to watch the attempt, (from a distance), but I also like to watch NASCAR for the wrecks.:D

[grimjaw]

I know this is a zombie thread, but I have an analogy for this scenario

I was getting frustrated with squirrels getting into my bird feeders. I'd tried a few different tactics that wouldn't also deter the birds but nothing was working. I asked a good friend of mine about it, who has a few years of experience I don't and his answer was this.

"Of course they keep getting into the feeders. What else have they got to do all day?"

Trying to do an end run around the ATF on this is like trying to beat those squirrels. They (the ATF, not the squirrels) have a team of legal advisers up there somewhere with nothing else to do all day besides come up with new ways to prosecute.

[EMUGOD]

Don't try to get smart and find a way around the ATF or the NFA on modern guns.
why take the chance w/ batf, i was taught.
Trying to do an end run around the ATF on this is like trying to beat those squirrels. They (the ATF, not the squirrels) have a team of legal advisers up there somewhere with nothing else to do all day besides come up with new ways to prosecute.

what else am i going to do? :p
seriously, how else can we expect to fight for our rights but the same tactics they use, ie lawyer-speak bull and dogged determination?

this may be a bit much (and off topic), just what is the deal with destructive devices? is the registry closed like for machine guns? all 40mm launchers are incredibly expensive for what they are (upwards of 3k in all the cases i've seen), even considering an automatic 200$ increase i wouldn't expect them to be over a few hundred? for the kind of prices they are charging it you would almost be breaking even getting the permits and making the thing yourself.

[rbernie]

Have you asked the BATFE? They will cheerfully answer any question posed to them.

[EMUGOD]

Have you asked the BATFE? They will cheerfully answer any question posed to them.

no i'm gonna worry about finals for the next week and write up a good letter in my spare time and send it when i get home. it will also give me some time to determine if i do actually want to go ahead with any sort of actual construction and some alternative theories of how to get around the law eg. calling the whole thing a 40mm shotshell (or whatever the final diameter winds up being).

[CleverNickname]

this may be a bit much (and off topic), just what is the deal with destructive devices? is the registry closed like for machine guns?
No.

all 40mm launchers are incredibly expensive for what they are (upwards of 3k in all the cases i've seen), even considering an automatic 200$ increase i wouldn't expect them to be over a few hundred? for the kind of prices they are charging it you would almost be breaking even getting the permits and making the thing yourself.
I recently got an LMT rail-mount M203 for just under $2k (gun, transfer tax and FFL fee). They're expensive because the market is limited and that's the price the market will bear. If you're comparing the price to a 37mm flare launcher, realize that an M203 is a lot more robust. If you think manufacturers are charging too much you can make a destructive device on a form 1 just like any other title II firearm that's not a machine gun.

[EMUGOD]

I recently got an LMT rail-mount M203 for just under $2k (gun, transfer tax and FFL fee). They're expensive because the market is limited and that's the price the market will bear. If you're comparing the price to a 37mm flare launcher, realize than an M203 is a lot more robust.

i guess i've just been seeing the wrong prices. everywhere i've seen has been around $3400 and up, and i was doing the math of $3000 for a three year license + $200 per gun + materials + hiring someone to make it and thinking the price would have to be lower to compete. but i see how ~2k could be the going rate. it must suck to be a 40mm enthusiast, or rather it must not suck to be loaded :p

[Explorer1]

"Does the gun described shoot "more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger"?

Yes.

Could it therefore be considered a machine gun?

Yes."

Please understand there is a man in jail (3 years I think) as he loaned a semi-auto to someone and it missfired, firing 2 rds. Long story short, the ATF saw to it he was charged and is now serving time.
I do not know for sure that is what started this discussion but there was a quote during the court case related to it fires more than once with a single trigger pull its a MG.
So folks, hide those missfiring double guns!

[withdrawn34]

Technically, if you put something around both triggers so that one pull pulls both triggers, that would probably, in effect, be a "machine gun."

But just use two fingers and pull both triggers, and its perfectly fine. Go figure. The NFA was never really made to make sense, only to supposedly combat prohibitionist-era crime. Of course, the only thing that worked was to uhh, re legalize and regulate alcohol sales. Maybe there's some precedent for all the drug violence in our nation today.