7.62x25mm Tokarov


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KriegHund
September 26, 2005, 07:43 PM
Apologies if its not spelled tokarov.

Has anyone ever tried loading one of these cartridges with a heavier or light grain .308 spitzer bullet?.

i did a google search and i think the bullet weight for the x25mm is 85 grains. A .308 winchester bullet is 180 grains apperently.

So, i would think the extra 100 grains would really screw things up. But a really light .308, or maybe 7.62x39mm bullet would work? Could a CZ-52 fire and chamber this round?

More importantly, would it be worth messing with? Im thinking that this would make a nice armor peircer, custom loads for emergencys, but i could be wrong. I didnt find any related topics, but if anyone knows of anyone please give links!

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Crosshair
September 26, 2005, 08:44 PM
The "Lee 2nd Edition" reloading manual has load data using AA powders on the 7.62x25 for bullets between 85 grain and 110 grain. Comparing the load data for the Tok and the 9mm Luger, the Tok can push a 100 grain bullet to 1752 fps at max load. The 9mm can only muster 1452 fps at max load. (Acording to the book) Even at the listed starting loads the Tok has a 200 fps advantage over the 9mm with a 100 grain bullet. I didn't use the 110 grain bullet, since there isn't one for the 9mm. But the Tok pushing a 110 grain bullet still beats the pants off of a 100 grain 9mm. The 7.62x29 is a high pressure round, with pressures reaching 40,000+ CUP. The 9mm loads rarely go above 33,000 CUP. The Tok also has a little more case capacity. I'm getting a CZ52 so I might try and reload some 7.62x25 for when I carry it and use the cheap commie stuff for plinking.

PS. It's Tokarev, not Tokarov
/Just giving you a hard time. :neener:

RecoilRob
September 26, 2005, 10:00 PM
I have a 7.62x25 loaded with a 147 FMJ just for fun. It WILL chamber in the CZ-52 but you will never get it to eject the loaded round if you need to. Way WAY too long.

The ballistics would probably be dismal too as the slow powder needed to keep pressure down would be too bulky for the case. The factory loads are to the base of the bullet with a fairly slow pistol powder. A slightly heavier bullet would be doable but I think heavy rifle loads are best left for desktop trinkets.

Kurush
September 26, 2005, 10:09 PM
308 is completely the wrong size and shape for 7.62x25, it wouldn't feed, and if it did I think a bullet that heavy would probably blow the slide off.

Also, I wouldn't recommend 7.62x25 for SD at all. The low mass means less penetration (yes, even with the high velocity), and hate to burst anyone's bubble but 7.62x25 isn't any better against body armor than 9mm. If you live in Baghdad or Baltimore :uhoh: or something and are worried about home invaders in kelvar, get a cheap SKS.

Edit: I stand corrected. I suggest heavy clothing and leather gloves and a full face helmet if you're gonna shoot that bad boy.

Crosshair
September 27, 2005, 12:13 AM
No, but the Flat point or RN/HP 308 bullets will work.

GunnySkox
September 27, 2005, 02:27 AM
..!

Maybe not practical now, but that seems perfect for the scifiish project I'm working on...

Can anyone give me the lowdown on the tokarev's dimensions, and, specifically, the ones for a bullet like that?

How many rounds of those dimensions would fit into a mag more or less the size (particularly, length) of an AR-15 mag? Would it need be curved or no?

I'll post another thread about this eeeelsewhere.

~Slam_Fire

max popenker
September 27, 2005, 05:11 AM
Looks like .30 Mini Whisper cartridge, as designed by J.D.Jones of SSK industries.

IIRC SSK may chamber a custom T/C singkle shot pistol for such load, but it useful only in conjunction with the silencer.

Similar rounds (7.62x25 TT case + 7.62mm 123gr M43 bullet) were tested in USSR during late 70s in the search for a decent subsonic ammo; however, this load was too weak, and designers ended with 9x39 round (7.62x39 case with neck expanded to 9mm and loaded with 240 grain streamlined bullet at around 900fps)

Dave Markowitz
September 27, 2005, 08:10 AM
Also, I wouldn't recommend 7.62x25 for SD at all. The low mass means less penetration (yes, even with the high velocity), and hate to burst anyone's bubble but 7.62x25 isn't any better against body armor than 9mm.

:rolleyes:

I'd like to know where you get this information. The 7.62x25 and its predecessor, the 7.63x25 Mauser, have been known for penetrating people and light body armor for about a century.

Kurush
September 27, 2005, 12:29 PM
I'd like to know where you get this information. The 7.62x25 and its predecessor, the 7.63x25 Mauser, have been known for penetrating people and light body armor for about a century.Both 9mm and 7.62x25 will pierce IIIa body armor with steel core ammo, and neither will penetrate a rifle plate. Armor penetration has more to do with bullet construction than with velocity.

As far as lethality goes, 7.62x25 is very lethal when it's shot out of a PPSh-41 at 900+ rpm, but one shot at a time out of a TT or CZ52 is a very different story. Handgun rounds, including 7.62x25, don't have enough velocity to cause lots of temporary cavitation the way a rifle does, so they have to rely on expansion and penetration to cause injury. The fact that 7.62x25 is only 30 caliber means a small wound channel and its light weight means it will lose velocity quickly and have insufficient penetration. The fact that the USSR dumped the TT in favor of the Makarov PM after only 10 years speaks volumes.

Taurus 617 CCW
September 27, 2005, 01:33 PM
I found a back issue of American Handgunner that ran an article on the CZ52. They played around with several different types of ammo. In the article, they found the most effective load to be a 55gr .223 sabot (.223 Timbs) , inserted into the 7.62x25 case. The hottest load tested was the MagSafe ammo, busting through the chronograph at a blistering 2,234 fps! The MagSafe ammo has a 52gr hollowpoint. Some very interesting data was revealed in the article. I would be happy to send you a photocopy of the article if you're interested. PM me if you would like it. You can purchase the MagSafe ammo at sportsmansguide.com

KriegHund
September 27, 2005, 04:42 PM
2000+ FPS...

See, My original idea with this posting was to achieve the armor piercing capabilitys of a 5.7 FN round in a much cheaper and heavier grained package

RyanM
September 27, 2005, 05:05 PM
Both 9mm and 7.62x25 will pierce IIIa body armor with steel core ammo, and neither will penetrate a rifle plate. Armor penetration has more to do with bullet construction than with velocity.

Actually, velocity matters quite a bit in addition to construction.

http://www.bulletproofme.com/PHOTO%20pages/Ballistic_Testing_PHOTOS.shtml

.38 HP @ 950 fps, 0 layers penetrated
9mm HP @ 1100 fps, 1 layer
.45 FMJ @ 900 fps, 0 layers
00 buck @ 1200 fps, 4 layers
9mm FMJ @ 1150 fps, 12 layers
9mm Magsafe @ 1950 fps, 18 layers

Even though the Magsafe is a frangible, the sheer velocity managed to push it 50% further through the vest than an FMJ.

hartzpad
September 27, 2005, 05:26 PM
The 7.62x25 TOK round doesn't need any more penetration. My CZ-52 wshot clean through a big steel truck wheel from 15 yards as many times as I pulled the trigger. I was impressed.

In fact, in addition to my CZ-52 and my Polish Tokarev, I'm going to get one of these "bling, bling" chrome CZ-52's for range fun, a steal at only $169. I just wish that someone would make a modern, double stack steel pistol chambered in 7.62x25. A converted CZ-75, CZ-97 or 1911 would hit the spot.

http://www.classicarms.us/images/firearms/chrczjpg.jpg

Kurush
September 27, 2005, 09:23 PM
Actually, velocity matters quite a bit in addition to construction.

9mm HP @ 1100 fps, 1 layer
9mm FMJ @ 1150 fps, 12 layers
9mm Magsafe @ 1950 fps, 18 layersThat's exactly what I said. The change from JHP to FMJ makes a change of and order of magnitude and a change of 50% velocity makes a 50% change in penetration; ergo, bullet construction is much more important. If they had tested 9mm (or 7.62x25) with a steel core and a pointed ogive it would have sailed through all 24 and probably ended up in the wall.

JohnKSa
September 27, 2005, 09:47 PM
The 7.62x25 in its standard loading is good enough at piercing body armor that police in Hong Kong where the round is common had a vest developed especially for the cartridge.

Note that in this ad they have a standard vest and a specially designed Tokarev vest.
http://www.allproducts.com/plastic/teh/p03.html

Another ad. Notice that the 9mm is defeated by the IIA and II but it's not until the IIIA that they list the 7.62x25 as being defeated.

http://www.securityandsafetysupply.com/products-body-armor/Detail_Fusion.html

Another listing of body armor levels and the handgun rounds they defeat. Note that the 7.62x25 ranks at the top.

http://www.reinaertelectronics.nl/Kogelwerende_vesten/Technische_gegevens_/body_technische_gegevens_.html

Crosshair
September 27, 2005, 11:28 PM
hartzpad

Where do you get a chrome CZ-52. You have my attention. :)

JohnKSa
September 28, 2005, 12:47 AM
www.classicarms.us

Page down a bit.

Kurush
September 28, 2005, 01:09 AM
The 7.62x25 in its standard loading is good enough at piercing body armor that police in Hong Kong where the round is common had a vest developed especially for the cartridge.I have heard that also, even assuming it's true, it just begs the question of what the non-special vests are developed for. Also, Chinese ammo tends to be mild steel core.

Another ad. Notice that the 9mm is defeated by the IIA and II but it's not until the IIIA that they list the 7.62x25 as being defeated.The 9mm listed there is JHP :rolleyes:

I'm done arguing this, but I'll just reiterate what I said in the first post: if you're really worried about armored burglars, get a longgun. Any handgun round that can penetrate armor won't expand and probably won't cause much damage, especially if it just went through body armor. A nice cheap SKS or shotgun (with slugs in the case of armor) will acquit itself very well against nearly any home invader.

Crosshair
September 28, 2005, 01:13 AM
My wallet now hates you JohnKSa. :D

Can you fax you're C&R or is that for regular FFLs?

JohnKSa
September 28, 2005, 10:15 PM
The 9mm listed there is JHPTrue, that's why I listed 3 different links in case one might not be acceptable to some. Furthermore, those 3 links were the result of a BIG 10 minutes or so of "research" so it's not like I really plumbed the depths of this topic. The third link is probably most telling in that it lists several 9mmFMJ rounds (including one 124gr 9mm FMJ round with a velocity of 1400fps--that's pretty much beyond the range of 124gr 9mm from a handgun) as being defeated by one of the vest levels. But they clearly indicate that yet another level of protection is required for Tokarev and 7.62x25

Crosshair,

You'll have to contact Classic Arms. I don't know if it qualifies as C&R with the chrome plating. They're good folks, I've bought from them several times.

PaulDaisy
September 28, 2005, 10:18 PM
I liked the way those hard chromes look, too. However, them saying that they "do those on site" makes me wonder - do they refinish those that are absolutely worn out? Anybody has one of those to tell us?
I myself bough unissued when they sold them still and really like it.
-P

JohnKSa
September 28, 2005, 10:56 PM
Paul,

In my experience with Classic Arms, if you ask them a question, they will give you a straight answer. Call them and see what they say.

hartzpad
September 28, 2005, 11:23 PM
Classic it out of Chrome CZ-52's for now but is doing another chrome batch now. He said they should be ready soon. Reports from those that have them have been positive, great matte chrome finish but poor condition holster.

Buck Nekkid
September 30, 2005, 10:23 PM
I gotta agree with Hartzpad. The chrome CZ 52 I got from Classic in August was stunning. The holster was green with mold and smelled! Their grips aren't much to write home about either, but oh the pistol!!

They do back them up as well. I had an issue with the magazine release--it wouldn't release the mag--they sent me a postage paid box to return it to them and it was back in about 10 days completely repaired. These are really nice people.

Buck Nekkid

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