Minimalist Rifleperson--What Do I Need?


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Skunkabilly
March 28, 2003, 05:22 PM
Let's say I want to start taking this rifle thing seriously. What do I need?

1. Rifle & Ammo
2. Scope
3. Spotting Scope
4. Sandbags

Is that it? Do I NEED one of those rifle rest doohickeys, or are they a convenience? And I need a sling, right?

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sam3
March 28, 2003, 05:48 PM
i would say you need
1.rifle and ammo and some more ammo
2.a copy of jeff coopers "the art of the rifle"
3. range time to work and practice on what you read in the art of the rifle

BusMaster007
March 28, 2003, 05:56 PM
Skunkabilly:

What kind of rifle/cartridge are you using in this hypothetical situation?

I vote for a Harris bipod of some sort, too...mostly because it keeps the gun from falling over when taking pix of it!
:D

One more post and you've got 2000, too. :cool:

Ian
March 28, 2003, 06:23 PM
All you really need is a rifle, some ammo, and a target to shoot at. A rifle scope is optional, a spotting scope is a luxury, and sandbags are only needed for sighting in the rifle. Once the sights are on, I would REALLY encourage you to shoot from an offhand position most of the time.

El Tejon
March 28, 2003, 06:34 PM
Skunk, needs and wants, like it matters!:D

Like pistols, there are many good weapons available. Find what you like and buy one just like it. This will only depend upon dozens of variables and provides hours of fun on the Internet.

You need: sling, place to dry practice, and money for tuition. See you in class, brasshopper.:)

CaesarI
March 28, 2003, 06:36 PM
Minimum you'll need depends in LARGE part on what it is you want to be able to accomplish with a rifle.

-Morgan

QuarterBoreGunner
March 28, 2003, 06:37 PM
If you were going to be a lot of off hand shooting, I would HIGHLY recommend a Turner sling-

http://turnersling.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=TS

And learn how to use it properly; makes a world of difference.
Maybe also get and keep a logbook of your shooting.

And if you get REALLY serious about rifles, reloading equipment is just over the horizon.

yankytrash
March 28, 2003, 06:46 PM
Skunk, a true tactical minimalist would ditch the scope and sandbag for proper shooting position and technique. ;)

You already got the rifle, the ammo, and the willingness to see what you can do. All you need now is a little push - Get the Jeff Cooper series, it's cheap.

Schuey2002
March 28, 2003, 06:55 PM
A H&K (any preban 90 series will work) or a Horsey-brand AR-15 rifle, quality ammo and factory mags (plus a few mag clamps). That's all one really needs. :D

TrapperReady
March 28, 2003, 06:58 PM
If you really want to start taking this rifle thing seriously AND seriously upgrade your tactical quotient, join the US Marine Corps.

Personally, I favor the Army, but the USMC does have a better rep for rifle marksmanship (see Zapruder film for details).

Otherwise, just pick a rifle, get a spotting scope and a decent sling (I also recommend Turner) and start shooting. I would advise against using a scope until you are able to hold decent groups with iron sights.

Forget the sandbags for now, and just concentrate on the basics, standing, sitting and prone. Steve Smith has some excellent pics in the Competition Forum.

There are lots of people who can do OK from a bench with a lot of supports, but can't shoot diddly without the props. Set yourself apart.

Mannlicher
March 28, 2003, 09:20 PM
Minimalist choice? no rifle at all. that should about cover this thread.

CWL
March 28, 2003, 09:22 PM
Turner sling. You can get it in tactical black.

Coronach
March 28, 2003, 10:03 PM
Personally, I favor the Army, but the USMC does have a better rep for rifle marksmanship (see Zapruder film for details).:what: YEOUCH!

Mike ;)

PS Back....and to the left...back....and to the left....

Tommy Gunn
March 29, 2003, 04:08 AM
My advise is that you get these items.


Rifle

Lyman target sights (http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/sights.htm)

Leather military sling (http://www.creedmoorsports.com/C1061.html)

shooting jacket

glove

spotting scope

RUT
March 29, 2003, 06:54 PM
>>Personally, I favor the Army, but the USMC does have a better rep for rifle marksmanship <<

Especially back in the good old days when we were using M14's!!!;)

MolonLabe416
March 29, 2003, 08:11 PM
My .02 -

Winchester Featherweight Model 70 in .308.

Low power fixed or variable Leupold scope, depending on your preference and budget. The little 1.5x5 with the illuminated reticle is very nice.

Ching Sling. The three point sling is far superior to the standard sling for field use. Much faster to sling up, easier to use well.

Sandbags will do fine, you don't really need a rest, though they are handy. Anyway, other than zeroing, you need to get away from the bench and shoot from field positions. See Jeff Cooper's _Art of the Rifle_.

I'd add iron sights as a backup in case the scope goes TU, though this is rare today.

This setup will do most anything you need to do.

Sir Galahad
March 29, 2003, 09:46 PM
1.) Rifle
2.) Ammo
3.) Hood of Jeep Cherokee
4.) Old towel
5.) Good cigarillos
6.) Place that serves good fajitas for afterwards. :D

Schuey2002
March 29, 2003, 10:04 PM
3.) Hood of Jeep Cherokee
Hood of Honda Crisis Response Vehicle in Skunks case..

:D

Sir Galahad
March 29, 2003, 10:07 PM
What's a Honda?:D

HerbG
March 29, 2003, 10:31 PM
What you really need is marksmanship training - something that rarely gets mentioned in this or any other forum. Back in the old days when many young men were drafted, most learned the basics of rifle marksmanship. You know, spot weld, sight picture, trigger squeeze - those kinds of things. Today, few young shooters have any formal training, and it shows! Most buy a gun and ammo and head out to do some blasting. The idea seems to be that if you have the latest media typed gun that is all that is necessary. The result? Most are lousy marksmen. The idea of actually hitting what you shoot at is a thing of the past.

HarryB
March 30, 2003, 12:20 AM
I am relearning marksmanship with my Swede and Argentine Mausers. Great triggers, decent sights, and its fun banging the 300 yard gong with iron sights while others with scopes make dust piles...

Oh yeah, the Swiss K-31 is a great choice too!

coonan357
March 30, 2003, 12:52 AM
write to fred's and get some aqt's and freds rifleman guide book and practice, practice, practice..

atek3
March 30, 2003, 05:37 PM
not all of us young whippersnappers are shoddy marksman. My friend and I (both 21 yrs. old) shoot NRA highpower about twice a month. After two years I just leap-frogged sharpshooter and broke expert.

atek3

PS but you're right, in general most shooters these days would be "cooks" as Fred would say.

Frohickey
March 30, 2003, 07:02 PM
hehe... I just ordered some M14 stocks from www.fredsm14stocks.com, and I actually read the pro-2A literature that was included with the order.

Now, I'm looking for a 'partner' or two to do team rifle shooting tactics with! :D

Where is what I think you need...
1) Rifle + sling + gobs of ammo
2) Target range of sufficient size
3) Targets
and if you are a normal person
4) a partner or two that would provide encouragement and competition for the times that you want to just pack up, go home, and sit in front of the TV and not go rifle shooting again.

atek3
March 30, 2003, 07:14 PM
frohickey, if you live in the bay area maybe we could go shooting sometime.

atek3

Skunkabilly
March 30, 2003, 08:08 PM
Hmm...

1. Why not a spotting scope? It'll be nice to see where I'm hitting without walking 600 feet every time. Am I missing something?

2. As for positions, I may be stuck at the table depending on which range I'm at.

Sir Galahad
March 30, 2003, 08:35 PM
Don't forget the fajitas! Nothing builds up a better appetite than the smell of burned powder.:D

Frohickey
March 30, 2003, 08:56 PM
Table shooting, is pretty much for load development and maybe for rifle sight-in. Besides, you get hammered more from recoil when you are shooting from the bench.

A spotting scope is good, though metal gongs of various sizes would be just as good, if not better than spotting scopes.

A partner with a pair of binoculars would be good too. Though, if both you and your partner can't range estimate worth a damn....
Me: "How far do you think that rockface is?"
Partner: "Oh, probably 75 yards?"
Me: "I guess its like 85 yards."
...shoot at rockface for a little bit, getting surprised at how much of a holdover is required to hit it...
Me: "I'm gonna go get the laser rangefinder"
... trudge back to the truck and get the rangefinder...
Me: "What did you say how far the rockface is?"
Partner: "mebbe 75 yards?"
... use the rangefinder...
Me: "You are close, you have 2 out of 3 numbers right. Its 275 yards!!!" :what:

Skunkabilly
March 30, 2003, 10:14 PM
Should I get a range finder for any reason?

Not looking to do much w/ rifle other than improve my marksmanship. I'll decide what I want to do later, tacticality wise.

(Mall Ninja Support Ops, Snipering, etc.)

Also, if I go Leupold, other than their red dot CQT scope, can I go wrong?

Sir Galahad
March 30, 2003, 11:04 PM
A real rifleman does his thing with iron sights and no range finder, etc, etc. :D

CaesarI
March 31, 2003, 12:27 AM
If all you want to do is improve your marksmanship, you should probably just get decent sights, if your rifle doesn't have them, and then spend your money on training. I recommend Gunsite.

Books are good too, there are lots of good books on shooting rifles. "The Art of the Rifle" is just one of them.

A rifle, sites (either metal, or optic), and ammo, lots of ammo. If you are taking it seriously, reloading supplies should be on your list too, they allow you to make ammo for a lot less money, which doesn't save you any money... but it does let you shoot more ;)

Everything else is mostly specialized gear, that you can pick up along the way.

-Morgan

Frohickey
March 31, 2003, 04:07 PM
Skunky... it seems that you are trying to find excuses to buy more gadgets. :D

Rangefinder is optional. If you just want to improve marksmanship, I would start out at a range with known distances, and buy LOTS OF AMMO.

After rifle, magazine, sling and ammo, the next would be floormat, binoculars/spotting scope, chamber flag, shooting jacket, shooting cap, shot timer.

And don't forget the fajitas. :D

Frohickey
April 4, 2003, 02:39 PM
frohickey, if you live in the bay area maybe we could go shooting sometime.

That would be great. I'm in San Jose, PRK. :(

Mr Bill
April 4, 2003, 05:39 PM
Skunkabilly,
Where's there a 600 yard range around OC or LA? I could use practice at a longer range.
Bill

TechBrute
April 4, 2003, 07:13 PM
Skunk,

Please define "this rifle thing" that you want to take seriously. The type of rifle shooting you want to do will determine your needs.

A real rifleman does his thing with iron sights and no range finder, etc, etc. Yeah, I hear iron sights are great at 900+ yards.:rolleyes:

To cover all your bases, and to be tactically correct, you'll need a wide array of stuff.:D

No one gun is best suited for all types of riflery. Make sure you have the following in your arsenal:

.50BMG for hard targets at 1500 yards. Also suitable for low-orbit satillites and U2 spy planes.
.300 Win Mag bolt gun for 1000 yard shots at mall parking lot racers.
.308 Lightweight bolt gun rifle for mall sniping and shoplifter takedowns up to 500 yards.
.223 AR with collapsable stock for mall entry and Close Mall Battles.
.22LR plinker since you won't be able to afford any other ammo after buying all this crap.

:D

Frohickey
April 4, 2003, 08:08 PM
you forgot...
223 assault weapon, white box truck, and lone disgruntled white male for Wash,DC sniping. :rolleyes:

or is it...
Bushmaster AR15, dark blue Caprice, illegal Jamaican alien minor, and namesake of the last prophet? :uhoh:

Skunkabilly
April 4, 2003, 08:23 PM
How about little Asian boy in a silver Honda?

I'll be going back to SGV tomorrow they have a scope I can rent and some sandbags. I'll just use those until I figure out what I need....

Sir Galahad
April 4, 2003, 08:25 PM
TechBrute, I wasn't referring to 900+ yards.:rolleyes: My point is that if you can't hit anything within iron sights distance with iron sights, you're no rifleman. Seems to me lots of folks spend tons of cash on scopes, range finders, spotting scopes, and all the other plunder and still can't hit the ground with iron sights.

BusMaster007
April 4, 2003, 10:48 PM
Sir Galahad:

You have hit upon a Truth here.
Many young and not so young men have not had the opportunity to learn how to use open sights as it has been done in days gone by.
I think a lot of it has to do with no mandatory military service and much more urban living, topped off with split up families where DAD just isn't there.

I guess that's a good reason to do new shooters a favor and help them out with some real open sight shooting, no matter how old they are.

;)

Sir Galahad
April 4, 2003, 10:59 PM
You know, I've been shooting centerfire rifles since I was 16. What I could afford and afford to shoot was 8mm Mauser, 7.62x54 Mosin, and .303 Enfield milsurps. Just plain ol' iron sights. By the time I went into the army, the .223 was a snap. Recoil? What recoil?:D Qualified as expert. Now I'm 35 and just bought my FIRST scope this year. Put it on my Ruger .308 International. And two nights ago, the scope came right back off and back on went the rear iron sight. I never buy a rifle that doesn't have iron sights. And I have more fun and find more challenge in iron sights. And I hit what I'm aiming at as far as I can see.

TechBrute
April 4, 2003, 11:19 PM
TechBrute, I wasn't referring to 900+ yards. My point is that if you can't hit anything within iron sights distance with iron sights, you're no rifleman. Seems to me lots of folks spend tons of cash on scopes, range finders, spotting scopes, and all the other plunder and still can't hit the ground with iron sights. I agree wholeheartedly, but I also don't think you distinguish them into different disciplines. Just because you can hit an 18" steel plate at 200 yards with iron sights, doesn't mean you can hit the same plate at 800 yards with glass. It's 2 different things. Same fundamentals, but 2 different things.

firestar
April 4, 2003, 11:46 PM
Not knowing what rifle or the intended use I would say:
In order:
Rifle & ammo (one is no good without the other)
Sling
Scope (if you want)

Notice I put a sling above a scope, that is how important I think it is.

TechBrute
April 4, 2003, 11:49 PM
Notice I put a sling above a scope, that is how important I think it is. Luckily, I don't think you'd have to actually choose between the two, but I agree to a point. Offhand, the sling is critical. Prone, it's all but useless.

atek3
April 5, 2003, 12:00 AM
tech...whoa
all but useless in prone huh. I'd like to see how you shoot prone.

atek3

TechBrute
April 5, 2003, 12:18 AM
all but useless in prone huh. I'd like to see how you shoot prone. Ooops. I meant to say prone with a bipod... but then again, you'd probably want to shoot an iron sight gun with a sling and no bipod. My fingers were traveling faster than my brain.

Sir Galahad
April 5, 2003, 01:22 AM
I understand scopes and long distance is an art unto itself. One, which I, admittedly, am not real skilled with.:D I guess I'm an iron sights man all the way around. Just shot that way so long, it's hard for me to get used to a scope. But within iron sight range, I can make my rifles sing.:D

atek3
April 5, 2003, 03:42 AM
thanks for clearing things up. I've never shot prone w/o a sling or with a bipod for that matter. Actually I've never shot prone w/ a scope.

atek3

Feanaro
April 5, 2003, 05:11 AM
Read the title. Minimalist. That answers the question for you. You NEED the rifle and ammo and a target to practice with. Other than that, there isn't much else.

Art Eatman
April 5, 2003, 10:20 AM
Seems to me that becoming a competent rifleman is a learning process, more than some equipment-related set of acquisitions. Think how many times we of TFL and THR have advocated that a beginner get a .22 bolt-action rimfire and begin to learn.

Eye-finger coordination, proper sight picture, consistency in one's specific actions from shot to shot and the personal discipline to always control the "package" of action.

One then advances with equipment as one advances in skills, just as with any schooling. From rimfire to centerfire; from iron sights to scopes, and/or from general purpose rifles to packages for the specific uses that become of interest.

Art

Bainx
April 5, 2003, 07:04 PM
Skunk--if you are pretending to be the "minimalist" then I would suggest a Romanian trainer 22 bolt action with an el cheapo Bushnell scope. Prop her up on some old shirts, rags etc. and put a hold on the expensive spotting scope.:cool:

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