[Kestryll]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/889604.asp?0cv=CB10

That's about all we need to hear, it's time to stop trying to make the world love us and start reminding them why they should fear us!!

[Blackhawk]

That's about all we need to hear, it's time to stop trying to make the world love us and start reminding them why they should fear us!!
Haven't you heard?

We started that procedure on March 19th.... :rolleyes:

[Ebbtide]

Heard this report this AM. Made me sick. :barf:

It would stand to reason that the POWs are still in the area. I hope we get to them before it is too late. But I'm afraid it already is. :banghead:

[agricola]

these things should not be reported until:

a) they know the full facts; and
b) the heads of those responsible have been presented to the family members of the tortured.

Blair is getting in deep trouble over the comments he made, which were contradicted by the British soldiers CO, this sort of thing shouldnt be implied, alluded to or anything until they know and have punished those responsible.

[El Tejon]

ag, do you think Iraqi or coalition troops are responsible for this?:confused:

[agricola]

el,

iraqis, obviously. the point is, until they know they shouldnt release it - i mean the families must be going through enough without having this splashed over the press. give them the bad news, tell them when they know, but for Gods sake dont make it any worse.

[El Tejon]

Agreed.

[Mike Irwin]

Look at it this way, guys...


The uniforms were at least found at a hospital. That gives at least a glimmer of hope.

If they had been found in a ditch?

Then I'd be REALLY worried.

They're saying torture chamber, but that's solely a presumption.

It may have been an Iraqi command post, but it doesn't sound like there's any conclusive proof one way or the other.

[Marko Kloos]

From what I've seen on the networks, that "hospital" was used for breaking people, not fixing them. Car batteries next to empty beds, restraints, bloody clothes in corners, a T-55 tank in the hospital yard, and a few thousand chem suits in storage.

It's like the sardonic comment by a reporter when he saw the Iraqis fire into the Tigris river while searching for a suspected allied pilot:

"Their search-and-rescue methods leave a lot to be desired."

[Mike Irwin]

Quite frankly, the video was pretty bad. Did it appear that anything was attached to the batteries?

If they were torture devices, why take the electrical leads but not the batteries?

I don't know. I'm not sure if I'm buying it at the moment.

Something just smells.... off to me.

[SodaPop]

until they know they shouldnt release it


I really have to force myself to not repeat everything I hear and read anymore. Remember all the false information and propaganda about Iraqi atrocities in Kuwait? Later we found out there were no babies taken out of incubators.:cuss:

[ahadams]

Mike - the short answer to your question is because the leads may well have been custom made - they can sieze batteries from as many civilian vehicles as they need to.

[TallPine]

The cables ("leads") would weigh less than the batteries...

[Double Naught Spy]

Inconsequential is whether the uniforms are those of women soldiers or men soldiers. Pointing out that the uniforms were those of women seems to be a sensationalizing point to play on the heart strings of now antiquated sexist perspectives that somehow women need to be protected and that harming a woman is somehow worse than harming a man. All that matters is that they were US Soldiers. They agreed to fight for our country just as the men did and did so voluntarily.

[CZ 75 BD]

"A nation that sends its women to fight its wars is not worth defending." Pat Buchanan

"If we need women in our defense forces, we must not need much defense." Joseph Sobran

Both comments are obviously hyperbole, but with a ring of truth.

I believe that women IN COMBAT is wrong, wrong, Wrong. If women wish to serve, I am proud for them and grateful for their service to our country. But if women are in combat, it must be because there are not enough men. What does that say about our nation?

The flamins fixin to start....... :scrutiny:

[Mike Irwin]

You can get perfectly suitable leads for this purpose when you pull the battery out of a car, too.

I couldn't really tell how large the batteries were.

Did anyone get a look at them? How large were they?

I'm trusting my gut on this one. Somethings wrong with the interpretation.

[Frohickey]

The hospital was taken by the 2nd Battalion, 8th Marines, after a fierce battle with Iraqi forces there. Sanders, who has been traveling with the battalion, was shown the room by a Marine who identified the uniforms as those worn by servicewomen. It was not clear what distinguished them from those worn by men.


On every article of clothing, there is a tag. Some say Mens,Shirt,Small.

[Drizzt]

Tuba City High grad among Army's missing

Billy House and Mark Shaffer
The Arizona Republic
Mar. 24, 2003 08:35 PM

TUBA CITY - The war against Iraq hit northern Arizona Monday with news that Lori Piestewa, 22, a Tuba City High School graduate, is among 10 to 12 members of an Army maintenance unit who remain unaccounted for.

Piestewa, a Army private first class assigned to the 507th Maintenance Co. at Fort Bliss, Texas, is the daughter of Terry and Percy Piestewa.

Her brother, Wayland, 32, said military officials notified their parents Sunday night that she was missing.

"They told us basically what they'd been reporting on the news - that some of them were prisoners of war, but that she is just missing and they can't account for her," Piestewa said in an interview Monday night.

He said the family already knew from television reports that some members of her unit were known to have been captured. Five were seen in an Iraqi state-run video broadcast on Al Jazeera, the Qatar-based Arabic language TV news network. The others, including Lori, officials told the family, are missing and feared captured or dead after their convoy became lost in southern Iraq and was attacked by enemy forces.

Pentagon officials and Sgt. Mark Porter, a spokesman for Fort Bliss, would not comment on the Piestewa family's remarks, or whether Lori is among the missing soldiers.

"We're not hearing a lot of good news," Wayland Piestewa said. But he said family and friends will meet every night "to pray that Lori and all the troops get home."

At an emotional gathering of between 250 and 300 friends and family members Monday night at St. Jude's Church, tiny yellow lapel ribbons were passed out and a number of women openly wept as they thought of Lori Piestewa, the divorced mother of a boy, 4, and a girl, 3.

Father Godden Menard presided over Lori's confirmation in 1996 while she was a high school student.

"True to the name of the high school, she's a real warrior," Menard said.

Menard, who exhorted the family to keep up their hope and trust in god, said he was surprised so many people came to the service.

"I was expecting about a dozen family members but word really got around fast," he said.

The line of people offering support for the Piestewa family stretched far outside the fellowship hall.

Lori's father fought in Vietnam and her grandfather was a World Ward II veteran, Menard and others said.

Wayland Piestewa said his sister, the youngest of four children, joined the Army about 2½ years ago, and that she did "supply work." He said their parents visited her in El Paso, right before she was deployed. The family had received an email from Lori last week, he said, letting them know she was about to enter Iraq and that it "felt good that she was not sitting around and waiting any more."

The 507th conducts repairs and other support services for the 5th Battalion, 52nd Air Defense Artillery Regiment, which consists of five Patriot missile batteries. In the Middle East, the unit was attached to 3rd Infantry Division.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0324war-hopi-ON.html

[Azrael256]

Try running an IV pump with no wall current. Car batteries would come in handy for that. No idea if that's true, but it's a possibility.

[bedlamite]

Try running an IV pump with no wall current

Gravity works just fine. Ever seen those stands at a hospital that are real handy for hanging an IV bag above your head?

[Ryder]

I got a good look at one of the batteries. It was a normal looking automotive battery and it was found next to one of the hospital beds. They can only assume it was used as a torture device.

How ironic that printed on the side of the battery in huge block letters was a single word in red... "FRANCE". :eek:

[Khornet]

Hear, hear! I'm with you. Call me what you like, I think it's wrong to send women into combat. Not that they can't do it---that they sholdn't do it. I can rob banks, but it doesn't mean I should.

[D.W. Drang]

"Not clear what distinguished them from uniforms worn by men..."
No kidding, especially since BDUs are unisex. Unless they found bras in the bag, as well, the jarheads were making it up. Or the reporter was...

[ahadams]

yo! guys! does the Army still allow women to do "moderate tailoring" to their uniforms? if so it shouldn't be too hard to figure out if the wearer was female.

[TheeBadOne]

Why didn't they take the batteries? Gee, maybe because they're heavier than hell! And they can get all they want at the next place.

[Mike Irwin]

"Why didn't they take the batteries? Gee, maybe because they're heavier than hell! And they can get all they want at the next place."

You missed the point of my question, which was why were the batteries sitting around, singly, with no sort of leads? They could also get all the leads they needed at the next place, too.

Where there's wiring, there's leads...

As I said, something just doesn't feel right about the claims of this being a torture chamber...

And, given that Iraq is under pretty constant air attack, I personally wouldn't automatically assume that I could get batteries at my next location.

If I take the battery out of my car or truck, then what? I've got an immobilized vehicle. Not the best thing in the world if you're trying to clear out of dodge...

Finally, given that the Iraqis have a lot of experience in this venue, something tells me that a truck's running engine is a lot more effective than a car battery for this sort of purpose...

[D.W. Drang]

does the Army still allow women to do "moderate tailoring" to their uniforms?Not to BDUs, no.

[rennaissancemann]

The last time I checked, women are citizens of this country just like the men are. If a woman wants to serve her country through military service and take a soldier's risk they have every right to do so.

Respectfully

[voilsb]

Frohickey said:
On every article of clothing, there is a tag. Some say Mens,Shirt,Small.nope. they say "medium regular" or "small short" or "extra large tall" with no mention of gender.

[Zak Smith]

The only cogent argument I have heard for disallowing women from combat when the same physical requirements must be met is presented in "On Killing" by Dave Grossman (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0316330116).

The book is about the psychological factors of killing, and the argument goes like this (the book is about much more than this - this is about 3 pages):

1. People are more likely to surrender - even after some fighting - if they know they will not be executed, and that they will be treated decently.
2. It's better if your enemies surrender to you than fight to their death.
3. Soldiers are more likely to not graciously accept surrender in the heat of battle from soldiers who have killed their female "comrades in arms."

This is an interesting book - I highly recommend it.

-z

[Zander]

From what I've seen on the networks, that "hospital" was used for breaking people, not fixing them.Precisely!

Without further comment...

[Mike Irwin]

"Precisely!

Without further comment..."

Ever see a third-world "hospital"?

It can be difficult to tell whether you're standing in a hospital, charnel house, or torture chamber...

For those being treated it's often not clear, either.

Hell, even hospitals in some "civilized" nations are pretty damned scary.

There's a lot of 12-volt powered medical equipment available specifically for use in the third world, stuff designed to run off of car batteries or any other source of 12-volt power.

[Zander]

Ever see a third-world "hospital"? -- MIYep. How 'bout you? I didn't know that you had any military experience. Thank you for your service to our country.

There's a lot of 12-volt powered medical equipment available specifically for use in the third world, stuff designed to run off of car batteries or any other source of 12- volt power.That would explain why we export so many 1-watt trickle chargers to Iraq, eh?

If a woman wants to serve her country through military service and take a soldier's risk they have every right to do so. -- r-mNo, they don't. The military services aren't representative republics or democracies. They are organizations commissioned to accomplish military objectives, and the lowering of standards, training and otherwise, to admit females in certain combat units is unacceptable on several levels.

[jimbo]

Double Naught Spy,

My sexist perceptions are anything but antiquated!

[Mike Irwin]

"Yep. How 'bout you? I didn't know that you had any military experience. Thank you for your service to our country."

You know I don't, so drop the snot, Zander. It doesn't become you.

Military service isn't the only way to get overseas. In some cases, it's actually an impediment to getting overseas.

I find it to be very interesting that some of the people scream loudest and longest about the media and their willful misrepresentation of the facts as they regard many other issues are so quick to latch onto a front-line report made by the same people.

What, the previously suspicious nature of their reporting makes them completely credible now?

Since this first hit it's been what, 4 days? Where are the follow ups on something this heinous?

Where are the outraged statements by Rumsfeld, Bush, the families, over the treatment of American POWs?

Where are the graphic 8x10 color pictures with arrows and caption balloons and explanatory footnotes?

There's nothing of the like out there.

Why?

Something like this would be screamed from the rooftops.

Could it be that someone who didn't know really what he was looking at on the ground made a snap decision (why, this looks like...) and then started talking to the embedded reporters?

[D.W. Drang]

Mike Irwin: Maybe they don't want to make a big fuss about it until they know for absodamnlutely certain that it's true, and/or until they can't keep it quiet anymore, having a pretty good idea of what the effect would be on the troops, not to mention morale on the Home Front.

Zak Smith: The explanation I was given back in the 70s by a CGSC grad was that we were taking our cue on keeping women out of direct-fire combat roles from the Israelis, who learned the hard way that in some cultures the men will fight to the death rather than face the humiliation of defeat and/or capture by "mere" women.

[Mike Irwin]

DW,

What I don't understand is why the reporters aren't even running with this.

God knows the Administration hasn't been too hesitant to keep the subject of WMDs under wraps.