copy of note sent to someone we all know...


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HD
September 29, 2005, 09:52 PM
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GunnySkox
September 29, 2005, 10:06 PM
... What?

~GnSx

Flatfender
September 29, 2005, 10:12 PM
http://bcm.maz.org/archives/pancake%20bunny.jpg

HD
September 29, 2005, 10:26 PM
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ruger270man
September 29, 2005, 10:29 PM
in engrish please?

Old Fuff
September 29, 2005, 10:36 PM
This particular handgun is an exception to the rule.

The pistol is, I’m sure – Colt’s Government Model .45, also known within the military services as the Model 1911 or 1911A1. Between 1911 to around the middle 1970’s all were made by either Colt, or U.S. Government Contractors. As such they were carefully made, using the best materials available at the time, and in the case of the government guns subjected to careful inspection by both company and government inspectors. These handguns earned a reputation for excellence, reliability, and exceptional accuracy.

Unfortunately, patent protection covering this gun has long expired, and today we have all too numerous companies producing copies that in no way measure up to the original pistols, unless one is willing and able to spend an extraordinary amount of money. Less expensive offerings are ... well ... less costly - because of substantially degraded materials, “anything’s O.K.” workmanship, and inspectors that seldom see anything amiss.

But it doesn’t seem to make any difference. Buyers still troop to gun shops and lay down hard-earned money to buy what amounts to junk. Then they seek advise on how to make the junk work, and blow more dollars buying quality parts to replace those that are sub-standard. In the end if they keep the frame and slide, the replacement parts may outnumber the original ones. All of this to simply get a gun they can depend on, or think they can.

I have no easy solution, but I don’t blame the 1911 pistol, which is a fine one. My ire will be directed toward those companies that are making cheap counterfeits, and those that continue to buy them without a whimper.

RugerOldArmy
September 30, 2005, 12:09 AM
You think my 'Rulex' watch might not be as good as that other look-alike watch? It looks like the same design... :scrutiny:

HD
September 30, 2005, 12:42 AM
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Double Naught Spy
September 30, 2005, 12:53 AM
Is Old Fuff correct in his description that apparently is Colt?

If you bought two new Colts without doing any background checking, then part of the blame goes to you for selecting the guns, even more so for buying two. You obviously have internet access and given the available information on the internet and people's opinions on various forums, you could have easily done research and learned about the product line in question.

Your catchall statement that QC in americaca (America) has gone to hell, how did you make that determination? Are you basing it on buying a Colt? Colt is hardly a representative for all of America. If you thought QC in America had gone to hell before you purchased your guns, then you should not have purchased them.

I had to laugh at your statement, oh well , at least its not a parakimberS&WAOotherPOSknockoff 1911

Para, Kimber, and S&W all make good guns, often much better than what you get from Colt. You called those brands POS knockoff 1911s. From the sounds of things, the only POS guns in this thread are yours and from the sounds of things, they don't compare well against the other mentioned brands.

albanian
September 30, 2005, 01:02 AM
If you are not a native English speaker pardon me but if you are, you are very hard to understand. It is not just the spelling, it is the that you start a sentance half way through and leave out the middle and end. :D

I gather that you had some kind of problem with some kind of pistol that may have been a 1911 and needed some parts for some reason.

1911s are great target guns and everyone I have owned has been reliable but there are so many makers and so many variations that some are going to be lemons. If you are going to use it for some type of self defense, you should keep it as stock as possible. Most of the problems with 1911s is from the fact that there are so many after market parts out there and so many kitchen table gunsmiths. 1911s can be just as reliable as many more modern guns but they will probably never be as reliable as some of the best like Beretta 92fs. The military did the tests and the 1911 came out on the losing end in terms of reliabilty to the M-9. Facts are facts and the facts state that guns like the Beretta, Glock and SIG are more reliable than any 1911.

HD
September 30, 2005, 01:10 AM
...

vesmcd
September 30, 2005, 02:05 AM
I was going to post a witty response to HD but it just isn't worth my time and effort.
Probably pass him in both lanes.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

VG
September 30, 2005, 03:53 AM
z

c_yeager
September 30, 2005, 03:59 AM
Tagged.

Im going to do an experiment this weekend to see how many beers it takes for this thread to make sense.

1911Tuner
September 30, 2005, 06:20 AM
it's okay, guys...I understand him. HD is talkin' in tongues 'cause he's at the end of his rope with this recent crop of pistols. :D

We talked on the phone last night, and after I got him calmed down, I stepped out in the shop and got a few parts together for him that'll calm the waters. HD...I found everything that you needed, though the FP stop has the extra cut for the Series 80 Colt. None of the others were of the dimension that you needed. It's an EGW that has a slightly smaller radius than yours, but not as small as I like to use in mine. I'll drop the package in the mail today.

On the long, milled trigger...So sorry, mah fren. When I find one of those jewels, I grab it and hide it away lest somebody make off with it. :p

The pistol in question is a Springfield, and he's had one problem on top of another.

Steelharp
September 30, 2005, 06:56 AM
So, all his Americaca whining is just caca, because we're talking about parts of Brazilian manufacture? Or am I misunderstanding... like most of us have the majority of this thread?

AND... isn't it funny :scrutiny: how some folks just ass/u/me-d it was Colt... tsk, tsk, tsk...

c_yeager
September 30, 2005, 07:12 AM
AND... isn't it funny how some folks just ass/u/me-d it was Colt... tsk, tsk, tsk...

He did say that it was an American made 1911, which narrows the field pretty sharply. More importantly it would seem to exclude a pistol that is largely manufactured in Brasil. :scrutiny:



He also stated that "at least its not a parakimberS&WAOotherPOSknockoff 1911". Which is a puzzling statement considering that it has been revealed that the pistols are more of a knockoff than any of the named manufactures, and that the pistols in question are most likely quite a bit cheaper than the so-called "knockoffs" which is made all the more puzzling by HDs statement that "neither of these pistols is ''cheap'' by any definition ... ".

Frankly, Tuner's additional information does little to clarify what HD is talking about. It actually raises more confusion. Clearly im still going to have to do the beer-test.

HD
September 30, 2005, 07:29 AM
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Old Fuff
September 30, 2005, 09:06 AM
HD:

A suggestion - and for others too ... ;)

A lot of folks are buying (price wise) bottom-of-the-line, mill-spec pistols with the intention of using them for a "builder," or as part of a "project."

Before doing so, sit down with a Brownells' catalog or similar, and make a list of the new parts you propose to use and what they cost. Be sure to get everything. Then add in the base price of the gun itself, and see what you come up with. I suspect that many will be shocked!

I believe that it would end up costing less to buy an older used-but-not-abused Colt or USGI pistol that no longer has a collector's value because of past modifications, such as adjustable target sights. Collector value aside, they still make good shooters.

These can still be the basis of a project, but it will usually be unnecessary to replace most of the internal parts.

Also, potential buyers should always keep in mind that the lowest priced guns are the ones that have the most cost-cutting with regards to parts, materials, and workmanship - not to mention inspection, which is questionable at best.

Concerning the slams against Springfield's Brazilian-made frames and slides. I see many threads posted about problems with functioning, workmanship, and lockwork quality - but hardly ever about the quality of their frames and slides. There obviously are problems, but it would seem that frames and slides aren't part of them.

And while I may have to bite my tongue, I think that it would be far wiser for one on a limited budget to buy a .45 CZ – that are reasonably priced and fine, reliable pistols – then a new 1911 “counterfeit” that will cost a bundle to build into a reliable gun.

I would also observe that our members have varied educational backgrounds and writing skills. Others are not experienced keyboarders. For this I don't give one hoot. I am much more interested in what they have to say, then how they say it.

HD
September 30, 2005, 10:15 AM
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1911Tuner
September 30, 2005, 10:53 AM
Well said, Fuff...and so true.

Now, ya'll don't give HD a hard time...He's had a bad year. :p

Speakin' of tunin' new Springers...I just got through with a Micro that one of our esteemed members brought to me for a tweak so he can carry it with him down to Gulfport to keep the goblins at bay while he tries to help. I ran into a few issues that were completely unacceptable on a gun that is by design and intent, to be carried for defense of life and limb. Not serious issues, mechanically speaking, and were addressed in quick-time...but possibly serious in the practical sense if the gun had been called upon to perform its assigned task. I'll do a thread on it later today or early tomorrow.


As a sidenote, an independent report from one who has been to Gulfport and The Big Easy indicates that while N.O had bad flooding, Gulfport and surrounding areas look like a nuke was dropped. Bad, bad Katrina seems to
be one for the history books.

Red Tornado
September 30, 2005, 10:55 AM
For those of us still missing some nuances, are these the GI or Milspec models? I'm not familiar with which pistols are made from Brazilian parts.

Should I stop considering a Milspec somewhere down the road?
Thanks
RT

HD
September 30, 2005, 11:06 AM
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RTFM
September 30, 2005, 11:20 AM
Buy a SIG.
Have a nice day.

Old Fuff
September 30, 2005, 11:36 AM
I see no objection to someone buying one of the less costly "mil-spec" or "GI" pistols, so long as they understand what to expect, and if they plan to use it to start a project, what the final cost is likely to be. An informed consumer should do whatever they think best, but a uninformed one may be taken to the cleaners.

I think that most buyers of these guns are used to buying other makes and models that work like they should out-of-the-box or after a short break-in period. Obviously, this isn't true when it comes to some of the 1911 clones now being offered.

As both Tuner and I have pointed out, making the necessary corrections in materials, parts, and skilled assembly would cost the makers some money, but it woud be far less the the cost of a customer having to rebuild the gun just to get satisfactory performance. The reason they don't do so is because as long as folks continue to buy what they're making there's little or no pressure for them to do better. It's even better from the maker's point of view when gun owners with a lemon decide to fix it themselves or by a local gunsmith rather then sending it back where it should go.

From this perspective I think that some don't really have a basis for complaints. As a whole body rather then as individuals they are part of the problen, and not a solution.

HD
September 30, 2005, 11:56 AM
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Old Fuff
September 30, 2005, 02:24 PM
Yes, but I think what you're saying is part of the point I'm trying to make. You know what to expect from both experience and reading threads on this forum ...

And you know that sending a defective gun back and forth to the factory on your dime (which shouldn't be in the first place) can get expensive.

But the bottom line is you're still buying these pistols ... :uhoh: :mad:

1911Tuner
September 30, 2005, 04:07 PM
Update on the Micro. This thing's gonna be more of a poser than I first thought. Many things out of spec that will require modification and possible fabrication. The factory extractor...K code...is a part of the problem, but the slide has a few issues too.

Oh well. I always did like a challenge... :banghead: :D

Old Fuff
September 30, 2005, 04:24 PM
>> Oh well. I always did like a challenge... <<

Ya' - but shouldn't the management at a certain company be a bit "challenged" too ??? :rolleyes:

.45Guy
September 30, 2005, 04:48 PM
Speaking of SA micro's, does anyone else have a problem with the darn things throwing hot brass in your face? I shot my father's last time I was home, and the brass was wacking me a little above my right eye. :cuss:

HD
September 30, 2005, 05:40 PM
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Old Fuff
September 30, 2005, 07:12 PM
>> ... only took 3 rounds fired to permanently cure me of buying sub 4' 1911's... <<

Well you are learning ... :D

If you are willing to buy a whole gun with expectations of recovering the frame, slide and barrel - plus a few other inconsequential internals ... well I suppose it's O.K. To me it seems like an expensive way to end up with what amounts to a basic gun. But to each his/her own. Folks like you keep the 1911 style gunmakers in business, where I'm not much use to them ... :evil:

I really don't wish you any bad luck. It’s just that I'm fed up with certain companies that are taking buyers for granted and cutting corners until all that's left is expensive trash.

Unlike Tuner (bless him) I don't do much 1911 work anymore, except for myself, a few friends, and a local dealer who is also my FFL receiver. Of course if someone lays a genuine old-time Government Model or USGI pistol on the table we usually become fast friends pretty quick! :)

Hope your latest project turns out all right, and you finely end up with a pistol you like.

Old Fuff
September 30, 2005, 08:19 PM
Now here we have an example of what I was talking about - a used, but not abused Colt Series 70 Government Model, with genuine (but ugly) nickel finish. Currently it is being offered at $550.00 and no bidders. That of course could change.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=37556037

Now if I was looking for a REAL Government Model I'd jump on this one, and then get the nickel plate stripped. Then I'd build it up into whatever configuration I wanted, and might get away with replacing nothing but the sights and some springs. (of course the 8-round magazine would either go or be rebuilt into a 7-rounder). I suspect that the finished project would cost slightly more then doing the same on some other gun, and it might come out for less, again depending on what configuration I wanted.

After the mechanical work was done and the sights filed to zero with the load and distance of my choice, it would be refinished with the finish of my choice, probably classic blue.

This understand, is only one example. There are a lot more guns in them thar hills. :D

Bobarino
September 30, 2005, 08:29 PM
love the bunny, made me laugh.

Bobby

1911Tuner
October 1, 2005, 07:01 AM
Closed on HD's request. Your parts are on the way, mah fren. Sorry for all the flak.

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