Armat M41A Pulse Rifle


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GunnySkox
September 30, 2005, 12:27 AM
Hi, everybody!

Since I've posted about them a couple times in the last few days, I've suddenly acquired a fresh taste for my very own, working, Armat M41A (air-cooled, electronic pulse action...) rifle (though, obviously in .45 ACP, instead of 10mm HEAP, and 12 gauge, instead of 30mm). Yes, I'm eighteen. Yes, I know I won't be able to SBR/AOW anything until I'm 21. Of these things I am aware. Still, it's a fun project to work on in the meantime.

So, to the end of making a working one, I'd be much obliged if y'all fellow THRers would assist me in gathering the following:

Big, clear pictures of Tommy Guns. Preferably the M1A1 and the new Auto-Ordnance replicas of the same. Also, if possible, documents that include the specifications and dimensions of the Thompson.

As above for the Remington 870

That one website that has the Full Disclosure on the construction of a Prop M41 (the one I'm talking about links to a place that sells kits to make an M41 out of a demilled M1A1/replica)

Place that sells SPAS-12 parts (specifically, that metal cage around which the forearm wraps, and the forearm)

detailed assembly/disassembly instructions (preferably with pictures) For the 870 and the Thompson; especially of the former's stock (like, how it attaches) and action.

An explanation of how the the telescoping CAR stocks work, and how H&K's A3 telescoping stocks work.

Thanks in advance, folks.

~GnSx
Also, please no derision of my nerdiness or my intense, lustful desire for the M41, or the impracticality of the idea. If you want to make fun of me, PM, IM, or Email me.

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Cosmoline
September 30, 2005, 12:43 AM
I have a clear memory of somebody actually doing this a few years back. Certainly if you do a search here and on TFL you can find home-made versions of the famous Aliens rifle. The biggest problem with making a working version is the shotgun, which would have a barrel too short for NFA standards. You'd have to make it longer. ALso--I don't believe the over/under aspect of the thing ever functioned in the prop or CAN function in a replica. There's no receiver for the shells to move through and get elevated up. My suggestion would be to just hang the shotgun and make it a FLARE gun single shot with a dummy magazine underneath.

GunnySkox
September 30, 2005, 01:05 AM
I think you might be right. I found some specs on this guy designing a replica, and the grand total length of the Grenade Launcher portion is 13.63". However, one of those crazy Super Shorty Mossbergs by Serbu is only 16.5" long, total. So if "we" (by which I mean me) are willing to loosen up ever so slightly on the exacting specifications, that might work (which would result in a somewhat longer Thompson barrel, which MIGHT be long enough to prevent having to SBR the Thompson). :D

~GnSx

Slateman
September 30, 2005, 01:10 AM
Ummm . . . whats a Pulse Rifle? :confused:

GunnySkox
September 30, 2005, 01:23 AM
The M41A was the rifle the majority of the Colonial Marines in ALIENS carried.
http://www.goldenarmor.com/marines/m_pulse.jpg
Bam.
If I had my Tech Manual with me, I'd quote from it.

~GnSx

Correia
September 30, 2005, 01:57 AM
Gunnysox, you are worried about this bunch making fun of your gun-geekery? :D Not much chance of that.

Overall cost wise, you may want to take a look at having the shroud fabricated for you, rather than trying to find a SPAS cage. The SPAS is pretty overprice, and parts are rare. I would think that you could bend a piece of sheet steel into the right shape, and cut the holes yourself. Probably a whole lot cheaper.

Same thing with the HK stock. The stocks by themselves are running $200-$300.

GunnySkox
September 30, 2005, 02:18 AM
Well, I don't "plan" on actually buying an H&K A3 stock, I just wanna know how they work, to get concepts for how the M41's stock ought to work. Speaking of getting parts made, does anybody know much of anything about Emachineshop.com? I thought it was a pretty slick concept when first I heard of it, but I've never heard anything else about them.

I can see this turning into a Mechanical Engineering project down the road (down the road especially because I'm about 3 years too early to be doing SBRs and AOWs and such). :D

Cosmoline
September 30, 2005, 02:32 AM
You could also rig up a sort of compressed air spud gun to fire faux "grenades" out of the thing.

GunnySkox
September 30, 2005, 02:37 AM
"Yes, thou evil trashcan, now that ye have tasted twenty rounds of forty-five caliber death, shalt thou feel the wrath... Of the 25mm super ball! *thwoof! poink..*"

:D

~GnSx

Dionysusigma
September 30, 2005, 05:29 PM
:rolleyes: :D

Staying within the limits of the NFA is going to be impossible if you wanna do it right. Also, realize that the 870 is only going to have a capacity of 1+1. The magazine, unless you figure out a way to have it bend back on itself, is going to be limited to 20. Building a working counter, while entirely do-able, will never reach 99.

That said, when you get it finished, POST PICS! :D I've always wanted to do this, but I'll have to go with either the Smart Gun or the automated turrets. Semi-only, of course. :( ;)

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg29-e.htm

http://www.sibg06210.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DVC00191.JPG

And, something that might help a LOT... :)

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:bKspHmmcicIJ:http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/projects/aliens/blue-prints/pulse1.gif
Click for full-size (http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/projects/aliens/blue-prints/pulse1.gif)

Justin
September 30, 2005, 05:44 PM
If you actually are able to build a working version of the M41A Pulse Rifle, with a working counter, that would be truly cool!

To do it right, the shotgun and Thompson would both have to be registered as NFA weapons.

I'd be curious to know from some of our more knowledgable members:

Since the shotgun wouldn't have an actual stock, would that make it an AOW where you would only have to pay the $5 tax, or would you have to pay the $200 tax since it's attached to the rifle which has a stock?

RRTX
September 30, 2005, 05:51 PM
Since the shotgun wouldn't have an actual stock, would that make it an AOW where you would only have to pay the $5 tax, or would you have to pay the $200 tax since it's attached to the rifle which has a stock?

$200, the rifle stock becomes the shotguns stock making it a SBS

MudPuppy
September 30, 2005, 09:32 PM
I thought an AOW tax was $200 first time registering, then $5 for transfering?

But, the law does its job in confusing the citizens and I have no firm understanding.

GunnySkox
September 30, 2005, 09:46 PM
I already knew about the 20-round magazine limit, and about the counter. That might be more of a pain in the ass than it's worth (seriously, if you can't count to twenty, you need to tighten up), though incredibly cool.

Dionosy... nosy... not gonna work here anymore, anyway, [/Office Space]

I never expected to avoid the NFA. Having a two-foot long shotgun attached to the front of the magwell of a 2 and a half foot long rifle seems even more unwieldy than a heavy Thompson with a shotgun stuck to it, plus all sorts of plastic/polymer shrouds and aluminum/steel cages and stuff.

With regards to completing said M41A, and pictures, it's.. ah.. gonna be a pretty good while. I'm eighteen, so NFA items are a distant thought, and even when I'm 21, it'll be... expensive (An Auto-Ordnance thompson is 700-1000 bucks, an 870 + gunsmithing + NFA expense would be, like, 500-700 bucks; having all the "Adaptation" parts and stuff constructed, molded, and all that jazz, would be... steep.)

~GnSx

GunnySkox
September 30, 2005, 10:01 PM
Additional thoughts: Concerning SBRs and such, the way I'm thinking right now, the "concept" may call for the barrel lenght just being 16-16.5" on the rifle. Short barreling both of them would be a pain in the hindquarters, and would cost even more. Additionally, the added length could simplify some of the construction, and would allow the 870 to hold a shell or 2 more (addl 4" or so of barrel & mag tube)

~GnSx

goon
September 30, 2005, 11:24 PM
I would check on the Serbu option too. If they can make those short mossbergs as AOWs, maybe they could do an 870 that way too. If you changed the dimensions... just a little creative license here and there....
Maybe you could make it work without too much ATF involvement (and cost).

Kurush
October 1, 2005, 12:46 AM
I would check on the Serbu option too. If they can make those short mossbergs as AOWsShorties are AOWs because they don't have a stock, this thing has a stock. Also the making tax for an AOW is still $200.

It seems to me that this thing would be way too front heavy to actually play with, you'd probably have to cantilever it to your shoulders to keep it up :p

(this coming from a guy who's currently trying to build a 1919 kit ;) :o )

GunnySkox
October 1, 2005, 01:13 PM
Yeah, I'm expecting it to be pretty freakin... weighty. I knew there must be an actual reason for giving the M41 a collapsible stock.. and that's so it feels like you're holding a dumbbell against your shoulder, instead of a dumbbell on a stick.

That said, I picked up emachineshop's mildly retarded CAD software, and I'm gonna learn how to use it, so I need recommendations on materials (especially on ways to keep weight down, and stuff that'll be rigid enough to connect the shottie to the Thompson and keep everything nice and rigid).

The shrouds have to be some kind of tough plastic. Emachineshop offers all kinds of good stuff, so I need to know what y'all know on a tough, moldable plastic, maybe like the stuff they usually make AR handguards out of (but I think that's fiberglass or something. Either way, gotta be tough and moderately lightweight).

Also, with respect to keeping weight down, does anyone know anything about the practical differences between the "Normal" Auto Ordnance M1's and the "Lightweight" ones? The latter have their receiver made out of some lighter-weight alloy, but does that adversely affect their durability, reliability, etc.?

~GnSx
"This is my rifle... er.. well.. there ain't many like it, but it's STILL mine, so bug off!"

ZenMasterJG
October 1, 2005, 01:17 PM
Am i the only one whos first thought was that that grip angle looks pretty uncomfortable?

3rdpig
October 1, 2005, 03:47 PM
No matter how you go about this when you're done you're going to have a very heavy, very expensive gun that's no where near as effective as a good M4gery or semi auto AK. Cool? Sure, but not very practical or effective.

Here's a suggestion. Why not build yourself a good M4gery or AK, then build your pulse rifle lookalike using airsoft stuff. It will look just as cool, weigh a ton less, cost a heck of a lot less and be much more fun to play with. After all, this is a toy we're speaking about, not a real assault rifle. Plus you'll have a real AR for any defensive needs or to take to the shooting range.

I bet you could have both, M4gery and an airsoft pulse rifle lookalike, for less than what you're thinking of doing.

PaladinVC
October 1, 2005, 04:27 PM
I say go with airsoft and a flare gun. Just as good-looking, and flares are way more entertaining than shotgun rounds when you're shooting cardboard xenomorphs.

GunnySkox
October 1, 2005, 04:27 PM
Grip angle - seriously. The "modified" angle on the Pulse Rifles (as compared to a normal Thompson) looks a little skeevy. Might just have to OD-green a normal thompson handle and put those little side cuts in it.

M4Gery/AK instead:

A) I don't want an M4gery. If/when I get an AR-15, I'm looking to get a 20" A4 pattern rifle.

B) I won't want a semiauto AK. I'm going to get an SKS or two soon, and that's all cool, but it's not what I'm making plans for, here.

C) I don't partic'lar' care much about how useless (combatively speaking) or heavy making this thing will be. The fact of the matter is that I'd really, really like to figure out how to build a semiautomatic M41A (in .45 and 12 gauge) that works, and is the coolest thing ever. Making it an effective combat weapon is a pretty much unrelated concept to building a working replica of a gun I saw in a movie with which I am deeply enamored.

D) A cool airsoft does not a happy gun-nerd make. An airsoft M41 can be cool all it wants, but it ain't what I'm going for. So if you'd like to link me someplaces that'll help, or offer up some data on materials, or some good advice on building/ordering/machining stuff, I'd really appreciate it, but I've really got my inner nerd set on an M41A that goes "BANG!" and "BOOM!" (though, hopefully, not "ka-BOOM!").

You have your dream-toy, I have mine.

~GnSx
"Shut up! Whatever! I didn't wanna go to Sally's House anydangway!"

Texfire
October 1, 2005, 05:20 PM
I've been looking into Thompsons lately and the weight difference is pretty negligible between the regular and lightweight receivers, given that they are pretty weighty guns. IIRC the normal weight is 13lb and lightweight is 11.5lb. A pound and a half difference would be more impressive in a lighter rifle. On the other hand, with all the extras you are going to be adding, it might make a difference.

LaEscopeta
October 1, 2005, 09:48 PM
A couple of sources for ready made under barrel mounted super short shotguns:

http://sageinternationalltd.com/si/wepmod/wepmod.html
Scroll down to: "Development of the MM12 was prompted by the necessity for an individual to provide himself and others with multiple capabilities in one, easily man-portable package. The MM12 reduces the Remington Model 870, 12 ga. shotgun to its smallest practical size (see NINJA-12 above) and mates it's door breaching capabilities with the individual's standard weapon. This modification fits the Colt 723, M4 and 9mm SMG." Seems like these guys will sell to the public, if you get your BATF paper work. It might me a little long for your purposes.

The company who developed this one:
http://www.olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_shotgun_lss.php
did so under a US Army contract, that might prevent them from selling to to any one else. They don't list on their web site:
http://www.cmore.com

iapetus
October 2, 2005, 01:27 PM
Here's a site by someone describing how he made/is intending to make one from Airsoft parts. I don't know if it would be any help in making a "real" one.

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/projects/aliens/m41.htm

Phoenix_III
October 3, 2005, 12:58 PM
Why not start it as a pistol (the .45)? Avoid NFA. Your parent can transfer a pistol to you in most states sans paperwork iirc.

There are rifle uppers for the 1911, for one. Just saying. Super lightweight... though capacity would be 'off'.

GunnySkox
October 3, 2005, 02:20 PM
I don't quite... get what you're suggesting. I mean, I already "own" a Springfield Mil-Spec 1911, but I'm having trouble with the transition of 1911 --> M41A

~GnSx

jason10mm
October 3, 2005, 04:54 PM
I think he is saying to build your M4A1 around a 1911 pistol using some sort of mocked up Mec-tec carbine upper instead of the thompson. Probably a pretty good idea and it would save you a TON of weight. Since the thing isn't going to have a 99 round capacity either way, whats the difference between 7 and 20 if you are just going to be plinking at the range? Thompsons are HELLA heavy and have a trigger you probably can't squeeze more than 10 times before taking a break anyway. Since almost all of the rifle is hollywood fantasy instead of practical technology (even though I love it ALMOST as much as you) why not keep the cost down and the build time a lot shorter by using the simpler 1911 upper instead of retrofitting a thompson?

Personally I think you will quickly become bored with the weapon once it is done (how exciting can a square range be for something like that?), and it will probably be a constant maintenance headache. An airsoft pulse rifle would give you a lot more flexibility in where you can use it and how. Plus, if you can do it better than the other guys out there, you could make a decent amount of cash on the side :)


BTW, I posted a lot of the "official" stats a while back, do a search for my name and "pulse rifle". Most of it concerned the ballistics though, which you won't be replicating.

GunnySkox
October 3, 2005, 06:42 PM
The reason I'm so keen on making it out of a thompson and a shotgun (and making it a "bang bang!" gun) is that it's the M41A with which I'm so enamored, and an M41A is made out of a Thompson and an 870. That's what an M41A is, and I want to build one. The gun is an end to itself. Its primary purpose is to exist and be mine, and to be cool. Along the way, I'd prefer if I could make it a device that doesn't suck awfully for anything but looking nifty, but that's a bit of a secondary goal to building a genuine (well, as close as I can get without spending 20 grand to make it out of a _real_ Tommy Gun) replica gun.

That said, can anyone tell me how much the buttstock and forearm actually weigh on an Auto-Ordnance Semi-Thompson?

~GnSx

Cosmoline
October 3, 2005, 07:25 PM
Its primary purpose is to exist and be mine, and to be cool.

:D :D :D You sound like a Mooninite

http://www.live-evil.com/moonquotes.html

Kaylee
October 3, 2005, 08:29 PM
I dunno.. seems to me one of these days someone's gonna come up with an aluminum receiver for the Thompson. Especially now in these days of hadly any civvie full-auto fire, it don't make much sense having that much weight.

Heck, I think it'd be cool to mill out an M41 reciever from aluminum to start with, leaving off the parts ya' don't need under the shroud, fixing the two-selector problem the Thompsons have, so forth and so on.. just make an "idealized" M41A from scratch.

Now.. that'd be fun. :)

Texfire
October 3, 2005, 11:41 PM
Actually, the lightweight model from Auto Ordinance does have a reciever made of aluminum. That's the 1.5lb difference in weight.

MachIVshooter
October 4, 2005, 08:56 PM
Here's a cost-effective suggestion. Use a G-3/Cetme and a short Mossberg or 870 with an extended tube. Mate them and then have a polymer housing machined to look like the M41. The shoddy with stock removed will protrude about 4" past the G-3 muzzle, so have a long flash supressor made to even them up. It would be a bit longer than the movie prop and you'd have to work out your stock, but you can get 40 round mags for the G-3. G-3's also weigh about the same as a Thompson. G-3's can be had from $400, so your gun cost could be kept to less than $800, then figure $600-$1000 for materials and labor on the polymer, depending on exactly how detailed. If you deal with a machine shop that can use a CNC file you create on your computer, you could drastically reduce machining costs. Building a telescoping stock is easy. This is the route I would go, rather than trying to acquire and then butcher/devalue two NFA guns. And .308 is much more fun!

Devonai
October 4, 2005, 09:30 PM
Why not go all out and get yourself a Class III Thompson? There are even a few chambered in 10mm Auto out there. I suggest a second mortgage on your home or a all-or-nothing trip to Vegas or Atlantic City.

Myself personally, I'd get a VP70 and call it a day. I already have a pistol-gripped Remington 870. For close encounters. :D

Dionysusigma
October 4, 2005, 09:37 PM
G-3/Cetme and a short Mossberg or 870 with an extended tube
Except for the tiny fact that it'd look nothing like the M41A, that's a decent idea. Cheap and easy is not the goal. It's all about the blood, sweat, and tears to make a dream come true. (Geez, that sounded poetic.)

And that was a Winchester for close encounters. :scrutiny: How much are Hk VP70s anyhow?

MillCreek
October 4, 2005, 09:51 PM
I am sorry, but the shotgun used for 'close encounters' in Aliens was a short-barreled Ithaca Model 37. I have one just like it.

Dionysusigma
October 4, 2005, 10:08 PM
Well, we got three of the big four. :rolleyes: :D

MillCreek
October 4, 2005, 10:19 PM
I can say that I have gone frame by frame using zoom and whatnot through the 'Aliens' DVD to identify the 'stock' movie guns, such as the VP-70 pistol, the S&W Model 59 used by Vasquez to shoot the Alien in the air duct, and the Ithaca Model 37 stakeout model. If you do a Google using the terms 'Aliens movie shotgun', and wade through the numerous hits, you will see that many others also identify it as an Ithaca 37. The characteristic bottom ejection port is seen on several frames.

I plead the Fifth as to if 'Aliens' was a major influence in my decision to purchase a parkerized Ithaca Model 37 with a 18" barrel..... :rolleyes:

AJ Dual
October 4, 2005, 10:35 PM
The idea to use a CTME or US HK G3 clone and flashider so you can keep a stock 18" bbl shotgun underneath is not a bad idea. It shouldn't be too hard to modify it with an A3 HK stock. (the prop stock looks worthless IMO)

It would be cheaper, (heavier, although I doubt GunnySkox would care) and that would leave you more money saved on NFA fees to build the round counter and the "pulse rifle" shell pieces.

The way GunnySkox would need to look at it is that he would then have the only Armat M42-A1 Colonial Marine DMR (Designated Marksmans Rifle) Kind of like how the M14 is still issued in limited numbers today to fill a role similar to how the Soviet Dragunov was deployed. I'm sure there's room in the USCM warfighting doctrine for 100+ meter shots on Xenomorphs. :D

Put an M60 bipod on it and you're all set. (and a dolly to wheel it around 'cause it's gonna be heavy...)

Actually, it's going on my "If I win the lotto" project list myself. Just to get the looks at the range.

GunnySkox
October 5, 2005, 11:07 AM
:D :D :D

That's a nifty concept and all, but the USCMC doesn't deploy Designated Marksmen, and the concept of the DMR is never mentioned in a book. There's nothing really... between the Rifle Platoon and the Scout-Sniper individual, with the possible exception of the M577 APC for moderate/long-range work (out to ~1000m, with its turret-mounted Particle Beam Cannon(s)).

And, besides, even if you were building a DMR, would the extra-long grenade launcher really be neccessary?

~GnSx
"Neccessary." Said the guy who wants to build a thompson with a shotgun on it weighing in the range of 12-20 pounds.

boofus
October 5, 2005, 12:03 PM
They said the props used in the movie were made from real Thompsons and Remington 870 and SPAS parts and they ended up weighing around 40lbs.

How'd you like to hump that around all day?

You could cut some weight by using plastic parts instead of all metal like the firing props, but then you would have to worry about the plastic pieces melting.

I'd just spend $500-800 on an Airsoft pulse rifle and save myself $29500. (yes c&r Thompsons are going for that much or more)

zahc
October 5, 2005, 12:12 PM
You said something about making it semi-auto. If you have to do NFA for the short barreled thompson, why not go the whole nine and make it FA?

Oh. Wait.

:banghead:

GunnySkox
October 5, 2005, 01:35 PM
I don't plan to make a semiauto thompson. I want to use one of those Auto Ordnance Lightweight Semiauto Thompsons and a chopped-down 870. The way I see it, the thing'd come out to about... 2000-2500 dollars (Figure ~1000 for the Thompson. Can be had substantially cheaper used; 200 for an 870; maybe 200 necessarily for the modifications to the guns themselves [barrel shortening, relocating that little ring that holds the barrel onto the mag tube on the 870, various other little modifications], 200 for the SBS tax stamp; the rest is for purchasing, fabricating, and otherwise acquiring the rest of the parts to turn the thing into an M41A-alike.

~GnSx

CAS700850
October 5, 2005, 02:31 PM
Save your money, become a fan of the new Battlestar Galactica, and buy a Beretta 4X Storm. You can still imagine yourself to be a colonial marine, just from a different colony, and without going broke on a project that will likely make you cry more than its worth.

Of course, if you're successful, you'll be the envy of every movie gun geek on the planet (not that I am one... :D )

Do we really think that an actual working model would weight 40 + pounds? The cast were all able to swing firing versions around without looking like they weighed that much.

boofus
October 5, 2005, 02:36 PM
They only had a few working versions that they handed off to each other when they needed an action shot. The rest were props made of rubber. Lemme find some sites with more info on the props...

http://www.m41a.com/a_2005/articles/mid2.htm

GunnySkox
October 5, 2005, 02:43 PM
Yeah. I can't imagine that a 12 pound thompson (that 13 lbs with the wooden stock and forend) and a seven pound 870 (that 7 pounds with the stock and forearm and a full-length barrel) could possibly weigh 40 pounds with the addition of a plastic/fiberglass/other polymer shroud and some SPAS crap on it.

~GnSx
"What're we supposed to use, man? Harsh language?" ~PFC Frost

goon
October 5, 2005, 03:57 PM
While we are at it, can the 870 work with Aguila minishells w/o mods? That would probably give you three or 4 rounds intead of 1+1.
Keep us posted on this. It is a cool idea if nothing else.
Also, didn't someone make a Thompson knockoff with a polymer frame? I think they were cheaper and would also be lighter. May be worth a look to save you few hundred bucks and make the gun a little lighter.

Texfire
October 5, 2005, 06:44 PM
I just priced the Thompson and the lightweight models run about $800-900 new. Included is one 30-round magazine.

Owen
November 29, 2005, 02:43 AM
The counter is easy...

With all the plastic junk on the side of the magazine you have plenty of room for a long resistor. Just set up contacts on the magazine follower to run along the resistive rod, run the value thru an A to D convertor, fiddle with an second adjustable resistor to make the value correct, and plug the number into the 2 digit LCD.

With steel magazines, you could probably insulate the followers, and use the mag tube itself, but you would need a wheatstone bridge to get teh sensitivity you would need.

thereisnospoon
November 29, 2005, 03:08 AM
I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a volunteer Arms Commando .45 cal Mark III carbine that is a very close cousin of the Tommy...you can see it here on THR in the for sale section. It is made from stamped aluminum and weighs A LOT less than a Thompson.

Consider using Aluminum square tubing in your mock up instead of bending sheet metal. You would only have to cut and weld (do you weld or solder aluminum?) instead of trying to bend into all manner of contortions, etc.

I have a source for the patent drawings on the Volunteer Arms also, if that would be helpful. PM me if you want them.

I can't believe I am posting in this thread...:eek:

Gaiudo
November 29, 2005, 03:08 AM
I have to give it to him, though its pure gluttony to go to all that trouble, GunSx has a cool idea. Maybe I shouldn't be encouraging him, but shoot, let the guy make a sweet gun. If I had a couple grand laying around I can think of worse ideas I would spend it on. I love the idea of the counter, Owen might have something there.

By the way, would it be that hard to start with all parts non-NFA (longer barrels, stock) and put it together, move your barrel ring, etc., then when you are good and ready file the papers and chop the barrels? Oh, and I don't know the specs on a Thompson, but it is all that hard to drop an auto sear into a semi? Again more NFA, but a whole heck of a lot cheaper then buying an auto version.

Strings
November 29, 2005, 04:19 AM
Another suggestion for increasing the mag on the shotty: move the silly thing back a bit! If the ejection port is right over the trigger (which would make things WORLDS easier), you'ld get a bit more length. Might only be one more shell, but I think it's be worth it...

You might also want to get REALLY buddy-buddy with your local Sherrif, so he'll sign off on the Form 4...

Harry Tuttle
November 29, 2005, 10:55 AM
i have been envisioning a similar project
but with a paintball marker

a Qloader will occupy the shotgun space
and a 3.5 oz HPA tank will live in the mag well

The best start point is:

http://www.m41a.com/

:: What's this site about, anyway?


It is the purpose of this site to offer information and links for those individuals interested in building and learning more about one of the most beautiful weapons in the science fiction genre. Yes, I am referring to the pulse rifle as seen in ALIENS. This also happens to be my favorite prop.

A few years ago, I had a vision of what this site needs to be. Time and interest fizzled out and it wasn't until a recent computer crash, losing many valuable links in the process, that sparked a new flame into realizing this vision. Within this site, you will soon find and array of pictures, information, and links dealing with the topics listed on the left. Please keep in mind, this site offers keen interest to the pulse rifle but, if there is something really cool or falls in line with a tangent interest, you will find it here too.

Please excuse the mess while we make this happen. For those of you that have been familiar with the old site, it is still available in its entirety and may be found here. tommin's studios 2004 If you would like to contribute a Pulse Rifle related article, tutorial, or know of a Pulse Rifle related site not listed here please do let me know. My contact info is available at the top right of this page.

A special thank you to all that have given some input to the site so far. The kind feedback has been an unexpected surprise and so inspirational that I had to make some of it available on this site. Click [ HERE ] to view the readers' feedback and shoutbox.

Many thanks,
Tom
Team m41a

GunnySkox
November 29, 2005, 12:11 PM
Another suggestion for increasing the mag on the shotty: move the silly thing back a bit! If the ejection port is right over the trigger (which would make things WORLDS easier), you'ld get a bit more length. Might only be one more shell, but I think it's be worth it...

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. The back-end of the 870's receiver is pretty much almost butted up against the magazine (excepting any kind of attachment method that uses a screw into the stock-screw-hole on the 870)




By the way, would it be that hard to start with all parts non-NFA (longer barrels, stock) and put it together, move your barrel ring, etc., then when you are good and ready file the papers and chop the barrels?

Good point. I actually became a touch more interested in the Serbu "SUPER SHORTY", and I sent an email to their head honcho about maybe getting just a barrel/mag-tube assembly, but he never emailed me back. It seems like the super-shorty would be ideal for the M41 concept, so long as I could get it transferred as a SBS, instead of an AOW (or, better yet, just get the barrel/magtube assembly, and turn my maverick into a.. *cough* "30mm over-and-under, pump-action grenade launcher" *cough* Indeed.

Oh, and I don't know the specs on a Thompson, but it is all that hard to drop an auto sear into a semi? Again more NFA, but a whole heck of a lot cheaper then buying an auto version.

I don't intend to spend 2-5 grand on a sear, nor do I intend to purchase a 20,000 dollar Thompson SMG. A 730 dollar Auto Ordnance Thompson will do just fine, thanks :D

*bounce* Now I just need to do some more research on attachment systems, recoil, various materials and methods for designing the parts I need/want, and then wait three years until I'm old enough to transfer an SBS/SBR/AOW/any NFA weapon!

~GnSx
"I am a banana!"

mbs357
November 29, 2005, 12:18 PM
20 rounds of .45 and, what, 3-4 rounds of .12 ga? .20 ga?
In one rifle package?
Sounds like the perfect HD weapon.
No wonder the marines liked it so much.

GunnySkox
November 29, 2005, 12:24 PM
Doesn't work as well with no ammunition in it.

"Incinerators only!"
...
"What're we supposed to use, man, harsh language?"

Additionally, does anyone have a source for reasonably priced 20-round Thompson mags that'll work in the semiautos? Thanks.

~GnSx

Owen
November 29, 2005, 12:49 PM
For your plastic clamshells, definately look into stereo lithography. It's a rapid prototyping process. All you do is supply a 3D model to the vendor. If you are careful about filling your parts with voids to decrease the costs (material is sold by volume), you are looking at $900 bucks or so.

The only thing to watch for is that the dimensions are not exact (pin holes will need to be reamed) and the material is not very strong, despite claims.

I have shot stereolithography pistol frames, and they seemed to work just fine for the 150 rounds or so we put on them.

Texfire
November 29, 2005, 01:01 PM
The counter is easy...

With all the plastic junk on the side of the magazine you have plenty of room for a long resistor. Just set up contacts on the magazine follower to run along the resistive rod, run the value thru an A to D convertor, fiddle with an second adjustable resistor to make the value correct, and plug the number into the 2 digit LCD.

With steel magazines, you could probably insulate the followers, and use the mag tube itself, but you would need a wheatstone bridge to get teh sensitivity you would need.

Every once in awhile, someone comes along and reminds you there is so much you don't know. :)

Tex

Harry Tuttle
November 29, 2005, 01:32 PM
this shell is prolly worth the 50 bucks to help you plot:
http://www.cushmanpaintball.com/sitebuilder/images/unbuiltm41a-340x255.jpg
http://www.cushmanpaintball.com/replicaM41A.html

this one is much nicer, but its 400 bucks:
http://spaceart.de/Artikel/al055-b.jpg

Texfire
November 29, 2005, 01:33 PM
Here's a site link for a resin kit for the M41A. They say that they cast the parts from a M1A1, so it might be fairly adaptable to a real one.

http://www.monstersinmotion.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/7789

Tex

50 Shooter
November 29, 2005, 02:00 PM
They all ready made a real one.

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0800/818.htm :neener:

GunnySkox
November 29, 2005, 03:12 PM
Delicious.

~GnSx

mbs357
November 29, 2005, 03:21 PM
They all ready made a real one.

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0800/818.htm :neener:
Can't see the pictures. =(

GunnySkox
November 29, 2005, 03:36 PM
Put simply, it looks a lot like the bastard child of an AR-15 and a SPAS-15, whomped 'pon twice with Our Friend The Ugly Stick.

'Course, the M41 ain't exactly representative of Classy, Soulful Firearms Everywhere, but I digress. :D

~GnSx

Strings
November 29, 2005, 08:12 PM
>I'm not sure I understand what you mean. The back-end of the 870's receiver is pretty much almost butted up against the magazine (excepting any kind of attachment method that uses a screw into the stock-screw-hole on the 870)<

Ok... I'm looking at the picture on M41A.com, and at my Mossy. Looks like the shotgun is attached WAY forward: the back end of the ejection port on my Mossy is a hair forward of the trigger, whereas it loos like the one pictured has a good couple inches...

Too Many Choices!?
November 29, 2005, 11:09 PM
.223 is lighter than .45 and arguably does more damage to tissue...

Crossfire- pump action .223=:barf:,(negates the speed of the follow up shot) IMNSHO. I don't mind having to pump the 12 guage:neener:!!!!

GunnySkox
November 30, 2005, 03:23 AM
Ok... I'm looking at the picture on M41A.com, and at my Mossy. Looks like the shotgun is attached WAY forward: the back end of the ejection port on my Mossy is a hair forward of the trigger, whereas it loos like the one pictured has a good couple inches...

Good points.

A) In the "real" thing, they used 870s, which are built differently, so there's bound to be a difference between an "M41A" built with an 870 and one built with a Mossy 500/Mav' 88.

B) I think they probably cut the trigger guards off , which probably seriously affects how far apart the ejection port and trigger/trigger group appear to be.

C) This point merely exists because a list with only two points is the second most useless thing in the listiverse.

~GnSx

GunnySkox
November 30, 2005, 03:27 AM
M4A1PULSE RIFLE eh? Can I have mine in .223/5.56, and manganese phosphated please???

Build your own! :neener:

You could probably do that pretty handily, actually. Short barreled AR-carbine or AR-pistol (either of which would have to be SBR'd), flat top, with the plasticky stuff built around it, using 20-round straight mags with special floorplates/bottoms attached for the M41 magwell, and you'd have to figure out how to do the M41A style retractable stock on the AR platform. Be an interesting challenge, no doubt, but I'm not a Clever Dan like some, so I'll leave that one to the philosophers.

:D

~GnSx

Strings
November 30, 2005, 04:03 AM
>A) In the "real" thing, they used 870s, which are built differently, so there's bound to be a difference between an "M41A" built with an 870 and one built with a Mossy 500/Mav' 88.<

Hmmm... I seem to recall it being fairly similar to the 870...

>B) I think they probably cut the trigger guards off , which probably seriously affects how far apart the ejection port and trigger/trigger group appear to be.<

True. However, the trigger of the grenade launcher is supposed to be right by the mag well (that's the little opening there). So pushing the gun back like that would actually make it MUCH more functional...


Now *I* want to build one... :(

MadMercS55
November 30, 2005, 01:04 PM
I love the idea, and have been a long time fan of the movies(s). If you look at the current day HK XM8 rifle, that IMO could EASILY be turned into a M41. Or for that matter, look at the G36\XM8 series of weapons, to me they resemble what could have been a Pre-M41A weapon (Following Colonial Marine timelines of course). :D

GunnySkox
November 30, 2005, 01:41 PM
Now *I* want to build one... :(

That's right you do. Now gimme five grand and a time machine, I gots to get to work!

~GnSx

Harry Tuttle
November 30, 2005, 03:35 PM
http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/?filnavn=/projects/aliens/m41.htm

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/projects/aliens/m41a.gif

What is it really? Well, it's basically a M1A1 Thompson, combined with an underslung grenade launcher. The launcher is actually a Remington M870 shotgun encased in parts from a SPAS12. The rest of the parts are all custom made (the carry handle, shell, stock etc.).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

http://www.tk560.com/studioprops/studioprops-Images/30.jpg
http://www.tk560.com/m41a.html

The SPAS/Rem870 "Grenade launcher" is by far the most challenging part of the whole build. My first attempt was to use some cheap airsoft SPAS12. As it turns out, these are not very accurate, complete, or to scale. A version can be made to work, but the airsoft cage will require a lot of modifying. Locating a real SPAS12 pump handle and cage is hard work. No online sources still have any, your best bet is to post some requests on the RPF, ASAP, or the BBC and other forums, and go to local gun shows looking for parts. I was lucky found a real SPAS cage/pump handle set.The grenade launcher requires a cut down Remington 870 shotgun and a lot of custom fitting/cutting.In addition, there are several greeblies to add to make this work. To complete the grenade launcher requires destroying a functioning Rem 870, and chopping parts of the SPAS. For me, it is the hardest part to get going. I really hate messing up perfectly good parts!

I had the option to cut down a real Rem 870 or use a resin replica from Kip. Remaining true to the original mission of this prop, [to build it like the originals prop makers did,] I decided to go with the real one. The only change will be to use a dummy wooden dowel barrel, deactivate the bolt, weld a spacer block in front of the receiver, effectively destroying a perfectly good 870. This keeps it legal and keep the 870 from being able to chamber a round. This way, I still get the real parts and keep it legal. I can sell the barrel on ebay along with the stock parts and re coop some money. One of the best sources for real Remington 870's are local pawn shops. These are very common, and can be had for as little as $150. Ask for an "Express" these have plain stocks, and a matt finish. I also got a resin replica from Kip, and I will use it along with the extra parts I have to build a stunt version M41-A.

Spiggy
November 30, 2005, 03:54 PM
*must... ...resists... ...urg... ...to build... ...MORITA...*

how's the project coming along?

Mumbles_45
November 30, 2005, 04:54 PM
Heh, this thread made me think of the Morita too. It would probably be an easier project, as far as I know its a Mini-14 and an Ithaca Model 37. I really hated Starship Troopers though (the movie, not the book, the book was great).

Harry Tuttle
November 30, 2005, 05:04 PM
Spiggy,Spiggy...

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/?filnavn=/projects/aliens/../morita/morita.htm

Anyway, back to the construction of this sci-fi replica. The MORITA is built in a tried and tested 'under and over' design, with an automatic weapon at the top, and an underlsung shotgun at the bottom.

The rifle in the top half, is a heavily modified Ruger Mini-14, converted into a 'bullpup' design. The lower firearm, is an Ithaca Model 37 pumpaction shotgun.

Spiggy
November 30, 2005, 08:46 PM
Spiggy is in fact a member of Arnies Airsoft since 03'

Anways. The base of the Morita has been discovered to be a Muzzlelite bullpup converted Mini-14. In fact, the whole rear remains virtually unchanged (aside the shell built onto the magazine, and few cosmetics) and the job can easily be done if you have access to the machines to cast together parts

Kaylee
November 30, 2005, 09:38 PM
You know, I seem to remember someone making a "manual" for this thing once upon a time.. about 4 years or so ago, and offering on-demand prints of it. I wasn't a mass-produced book, but rather something done in the style of a military equipment manual, aping the style of that for the M16A2.

Can't remember where I saw it though.. is it still around?

(it would be a fun little toy, wouldn't it? :p )

Skunkabilly
November 30, 2005, 10:09 PM
Why? You know they have MIM magazine releases? And all M41s after serial 413Axxx have plastic trigger guards. Yuck.

I'll keep my Illudium Q36 Explosive Space Modulator, thanks.

(dude that is way cool)

Acid for blood....blech.

Spiggy
December 1, 2005, 01:15 AM
certainly a great substitute for mace though... someone attacks you, you just spit in their eye

mrmeval
December 1, 2005, 02:21 PM
This is a standalone
http://www.boomarms.com/sc/viewproductdetail.asp?ProductID=288

Bullet counter on this works, fits on a thompson airsoft. I would like to find out if it'd hold up on a real one. :)
http://www.precisionairsoft.com/item1180.htm

[QUOTE=GunnySkox]Hi, everybody!

Since I've posted about them a couple times in the last few days, I've suddenly acquired a fresh taste for my very own, working, Armat M41A (air-cooled, electronic pulse action...) rifle (though, obviously in .45 ACP, instead of 10mm HEAP, and 12 gauge, instead of 30mm). Yes, I'm eighteen. Yes, I know I won't be able to SBR/AOW anything until I'm 21. Of these things I am aware. Still, it's a fun project to work on in the meantime.

Spiggy
December 1, 2005, 07:07 PM
the counter works by counting every 2 shots, has a light at the feeder when the nozzle chambers a BB, the shot is recorded and the number is bumped down a digit

Harry Tuttle
December 1, 2005, 09:07 PM
http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/projects/aliens/prman01.jpg

GunnySkox
December 1, 2005, 09:09 PM
Does anyone have a copy of that manual? I tried emailing the guy who d(id/oes) make it, but the 'mail bounced, so I dunno if it's possible to get new copies anymore. If anyone could put me in contact with the guy again or send to me a PDF'd copy, I'd be appreciative seven ways to sunday.

~GnSx

Kaylee
March 5, 2007, 08:27 PM
Question for the engineering guys out there --

Would the cycling action of the bolt on that thing be sufficient to "recharge" a battery that's used to ignite a caseless round? You know, kinda like that "shake it to recharge" flashlights?

Or is there just not enough energy there?

What about capturing the heat somehow, and solve two problems at once with the caseless/electric ignition thing?

-K

Owen
March 5, 2007, 09:16 PM
not knowing anything about how the caseless round is primed...

M.E.Eldridge
March 5, 2007, 10:03 PM
Good luck, man.

I thought about doing the exact same thing, but decided I'd save myself some money and build up a non-firing version or an airsoft version. I've yet to get started on that, but it's on "the list."

I'm rootin' for you, man. And if you do build one, I'll need pics, video and a chance to shoot it:neener: .

Cesiumsponge
March 5, 2007, 10:12 PM
The idea of using a magnetic induction system to induce voltage onto a receiving coil tied to a battery is possible, but probably not very efficient and certainly won't be reliable. Coils with very high inductance tend to be either very large, or use very small gauge wire, both which aren't very useful or rugged for small arms.

You'd probably have better luck using a sealed mechanical system using eccentric rotors like those found on automatic watches and convert the kinetic energy into electrical energy.

You can use heat regeneration schemes such as Sterling engines, which can operate on thermal differentials of just over 1 degree. They are probably the most efficient engines in the practical world (almost Carnot efficiency), but they don't deal well with impusive changes among other things, or we'd use them in a more widespread manner.

The science is there for lots of neat things, but the engineering and material aspects aren't.

mrmeval
March 6, 2007, 04:16 AM
+1 Cesiumsponge

With a extreme high density energy storage system you would see things that wouls look miraculous.

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