Rifles are truly fine!.


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AechKay
October 1, 2005, 03:25 PM
Ok.

So. I don't know if everyone here is up to speed on my current state but im on the ROTC program at Siena College. The other day I was thinking, I really don't want to learn how to shoot while im at camp and/or basic. So I took a trip down to the local gunshop. I walked in and saw the clerk at the counter and approached him. I told him my situation, that I wanted to be good by the time I left (which will be next summer hopefully) he gave a strong nod and stepped to his right revealing a rack of m16s and varients. I just...stood there basking in the glory.

They run for about 800~. My fathers most likely going to meet me half way because hes real supportive of me in the military. There really isnt any point to this thread I guess... just wanted to share an experience. Does anyone have any m16s they'd be willing to sell eventually?

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iamkris
October 1, 2005, 03:40 PM
It's a good idea to go to camp with some firearms knowledge...just don't go in acting like you know it all. That will make you a mark for the instructors tout suite

First a correction...you didn't see M16's unless that was a Class III dealer...you saw AR15's. M16s are select fire, AR's are semi-only. And while they are exciting, please remember that the rifle doesn't kick @$$, the shooter does. Like any other tool, it is only as good as the man (or increasingly woman) behind it.

While learning on an AR would be OK (recoil is neglibile, ergonomics are friendly), frankly if you want to learn to shoot, you'll do a lot better with a boring old .22 LR bolt action. It may not kick @$$, but it will teach you to shoot, rather than just blast away. $250 will get you and excellent rifle and plenty of ammo...you'll show up at camp with the knowledge of shooting and accuracy to boot. Completely transferable to your new weapons platform at camp.

Cosmoline
October 1, 2005, 04:04 PM
Since the AR is what you'll be dealing with in the military, it's not a bad idea to get one if you can afford it. But it's complex enough and has enough malfunction drills to learn you might want to take some classes to master it.

3rdpig
October 1, 2005, 05:19 PM
Learning on any rifle will give you an edge, but learning on an AR would make that edge even larger. When you get in camp don't say a word about knowing the AR unless you're asked by an instructor. Your rifle instructor will see quickly that you've got some knowledge of the weapon and the fact that you didn't talk it up in advance will earn you some respect. In other words, don't talk about your abilities, demonstrate them. The fact that you went to some trouble and expense to become a rifleman before you entered service will count for somthing too once it becomes apparent.

I think you're making a very wise decision, both career wise and personal safety wise. That rifle may be your only means of survival, the more you know about it and the better you can operate it the more likely you are to be one of the ones that survives an encounter. Never hurts to have an edge. Good luck to you!

trapperjohn
October 1, 2005, 05:51 PM
the lynchpin of being a good rifleman is marksmanship! that is what enables you to hit what you aim at. IT takes more time to develop than things such as dissambly and clearing malfunctions. The technical particulars of any rifle can be learned fairly easily. Becoming a good marksman takes time and lots of rounds down range.

Because of this i suggest you purchase a cheap 22lr rather than an AR. If you have to have your father pay for half of a $800 rifle then you are in no financlial position to feed an ar enough to become a good marksman.

do a search for john ross' article on learning guns. it mirrors what i say, start shooting 100s and 100s of rounds of 22lr ammo. to shoot as much as you need to become a good marksman using an ar15, you will easily spend more money on the ammo than on the cost of the rifle itself.

blackhawk2000
October 1, 2005, 06:10 PM
Here's my $.02 worth: Buy an AR15, based upon what branch you are going into. If they use 20" M16's, get a 20" AR. If you will be using an M4, get an M4gery. Use the irons. Go to a training course like http://www.blackwaterusa.com/

GoRon
October 1, 2005, 06:39 PM
I would definitely look into getting some training. This way you will not develop bad habits.

Ask around at the range or gunshop about classes, find out where the rifle guys shoot and hook up with some of those guys.

The Rallying Point forum doesn't get much action here, but you can post in it or do a search to find members that live by you. Maybe someone would be willing to take you shooting.

artherd
October 1, 2005, 06:53 PM
Honestly, I would keep the $800 and spend it on an ACOG optic for your service weapon.

Get a cheap bolt .22LR instead and work on marksmanship.

Or what I'd really do is: Get all 3. The .22LR first, then the AR and ACOG, and train with that at some carbine classes.

Texfire
October 1, 2005, 08:12 PM
Silly question, but why not compromise and purchase a good lower with a .22 LR upper? That way he's using the platform, and practice ammo is extremely cheap, but he learns correct form and shooting habits before moving up to full recoil ammo. Later on he has the lower when he wants to customize.

Hoploholic
October 1, 2005, 11:27 PM
If you are gonna practice with a close relative of an issue weapon, I suggest you train the same manual of arms as the branch of service you will be entering. Once you have learned a drill and have the muscle memory its hard to unlearn. Perfect practice makes perfect.

MechAg94
October 1, 2005, 11:59 PM
I think I would suggest a .22 LR rifle as well. Lots of different types to choose from. Single shot would be preferable as it encourages careful aim. I shot a Savage Model 30G growing up, or at least that is the current version. Great rifle.

Learn to shoot accurately with iron sights. You don't need an AR for that. You will get more practice with the .22LR and not spend near as much money this way.

I tend to agree with some above, if you don't have enough money for an AR yourself, you have no business messing with an AR right now. You won't be able to afford training either.

AechKay
October 2, 2005, 12:30 AM
After reviewing responces it seems to be split down the middle here. Everyone has good input. I think, financially speaking, it would be best for me to settle with a .22 for now to calm my urges and start saving for the ar15 right away. Does anyone have pics of the .22LR? I searched google and got this site: http://www.dpmsinc.com/22_lr.html . Is that accurate? Boy I hope so. That weapon looks like it could settle some urges.

EDIT:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=155804

nevermind :)

wallysparx
October 2, 2005, 12:38 AM
you're right; rifles do indeed kick ass. though mine tend to kick more shoulder than to kick ass.

while not going too far off-topic, i notice everyone suggesting starting off with .22lr. i just wanted to know, just how many of us started on .22lr as composed to those who didn't?

personally i started on 7.62x39. having to take an sks apart and clean off all the cosmoline was a great way to start shooting. never regretted the decision; i love the slight kick and the bang it makes and its willingness to shoot more or less where i point it. i later went backwards and got a .22lr rifle later, but something that goes pop just didn't seem nearly as fun as a gun that went bang. not to mention i started shooting relatively late (i'm 23 now, shooting for maybe a year or so), so i haven't had to worry too much about being able to afford as much ammo/range time i need.

Texfire
October 2, 2005, 12:51 AM
I think the main reason to start with .22 is the availability of cheap ammo. This in conjunction with the tame recoil makes for a rifle or pistol that a new shooter can afford to shoot, and want to shoot, alot. Good habits + lots of practice = better shooter.

But I do agree that if you've never had any shooting lessons you should get them so you don't practice bad habits that will hinder your progress later. If only I had heeded my own advice with guitar playing...

Dienekes
October 2, 2005, 02:38 AM
Shooting is mostly about mental discipline and correct habits.

Talk trash and act undiscipined on a real range and the real shooters (who don't talk much) will roll their eyes, move away, and watch your gun handling like a hawk. Maybe make a comment to the range officer.

On the other hand, it's a real opportunity to mature. If you are in advanced ROTC in a few years you will be right where the rubber meets the road and responsible for other people's lives. Takes a lot more than loose talk or even great marksmanship...

Look for a gun club with courses, perhaps highpower, perhaps a CMP highpower clinic.

Good luck.

Kurush
October 2, 2005, 03:10 AM
Honestly, I would keep the $800 and spend it on an ACOG optic for your service weapon.+1

GunGoBoom
October 2, 2005, 08:57 AM
Rifles [are truly fine].

Yes, they [are], my friend. Yes, they [are]. Keep learnin'! :)

Blue Line
October 2, 2005, 09:04 AM
Find a local gun club and see if they have any highpower matchs scheduled. Check the NRA website or magazine for scheduled events in your area. Get out there watch and learn.

Sewerman
October 2, 2005, 11:52 AM
get a decent .22 and freds aqt and riflemans guide, if you follow the steps and PRACTICE you WILL become a rifleman :D www.fredsm14stocks.com

VG
October 2, 2005, 12:23 PM
First thing to do is to go to www.odcmp.com and look for clubs and CMP events in the area. Theywill provide a rifle, ammo, and instruction for low cost. One club I belong to - Reading [MA} Rifle & Revolver lets students shoot matches for free. ODCMP stands for Office of the Diector of Civilian Marksmanship.

Second is to see if your college has a shooting team, or ROTC program, which often but not always has associated marksmanship training.

Third, many private shooting clubs are easy and inexpensive to join (less than $100 per year) and have competition teams or youth shooting teams. These times almost always provide the equipment.

It makes little sense to buy an AR15 because there's no guaranty the military will be using them when you get there; you'll have to pay for ammo; and it's too powerful a round to shoot indoors. In addition, both USMC (just revamped) and Army (about to revamp) are changing their BRM {Basic Rifle Marksmanshiip] training programs and you're better off focusing on bullseye marksmanship while that is proved out.

A good .22 is much more practical. They cost a lot less, ammo is much less expensive, and it's a lot easier to find places to shoot them.

Orienteering is fun and provides conditioning benefits. Any current or past military officer will tell you that land navigation skills are an essential but overlooked skill. Physical conditioning should take precedence over marksmanship training: as they say, there are two kinds of people: The Quick, and the Dead.

Good luck

Rockstar
October 2, 2005, 12:29 PM
I never discourage anybody from buying a firearm; however, in this case, I'd say enjoy yourself before basic, then go in there and learn to operate firearms THEIR way. You won't be gaining any advantage by pooting around with a .22 prior to basic.

Nimitz
October 2, 2005, 12:32 PM
where can you get a .22LR upper for a AR?...

Chad

Texfire
October 2, 2005, 01:15 PM
My apologies if I confused. I was referring to a Ciener .22LR conversion kit. They make one for ARs that include a replacement blot/bolt carrier and magazine. It works with standard uppers and lowers.

AechKay
October 2, 2005, 05:29 PM
Physical conditioning should take precedence over marksmanship training: as they say, there are two kinds of people: The Quick, and the Dead.

Im still fat :P *sigh* I'll admit, its been tough at pt every morning and I usually have to fall out of formation for the run because I cant keep up with the rest of the companies pace yet, but I always finish out my runs. Im getting there, I dropped 20 pounds. 25 more to go. Wish me luck.

modifiedbrowning
October 2, 2005, 05:53 PM
Here are .22 ARs. Bushmaster (http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/uppers/post-ban/az15846k.asp) and Olympic (http://www.olyarms.com/?page=m1_2217partner)

Sleeping Dog
October 2, 2005, 07:11 PM
i just wanted to know, just how many of us started on .22lr
me. Well, that was my first "fire" arm, at about 12yrs. Before that, started with .177 "air" rifle.

A .22LR is fine for learning marksmanship. We used plenty of Mossberg .22's to train troops in ww2.

Don't worry too much about the particulars of the M16. The Army is real good at teaching that stuff. And reinforcing the training with pushups and the front-leaning-rest position. :) Whatever AR you could buy, the service will come up with something different. I see NG officers once in a while training at a DNR range, being yelled at by a sergeant. They are using museum pieces - M16A1. Somewhat different sights than the newer A2 or A4.

But don't just get a 22 and blast boxes of ammo. Find an NRA instructor who can coach you in position shooting.

It sounds like the best "weapon" to prep with is a broomstick with a sandbag taped to each end. Hold it like a rifle and run 2 miles. Do that often. The one thing that stands out in my memory about Army training is all the running. And the chin-ups - I hated the chin bar at the mess hall door.

Have fun at camp.

another okie
October 2, 2005, 08:03 PM
Join the NRA and take a rifle course from them. They might even provide the rifle. I would strongly second what the others said about shutting up when you make it to the range at camp. Your guiding philosophy should be to be as inconspicuous as possible, not just in guns, but in everything.

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