[otomik]

so I'm in the process of buying a pistol via the internet, it's a beretta 92sb compact, from a school teacher in arizona. It's my first time doing an ffl transfer and the second gun I've bought. We agreed on the price and dan aumiller of westerville is helping me with his ffl services. he charged me 35 dollars for the service and said when it arrives he'll collect the arizona state tax. It sounded a bit funny, i mean why is he collecting the tax? he's the not buyer, the only thing i bought from him was his ffl services. Looking into it further it seems that i shouldn't have to pay state tax from another state (there is a part of the tax forms that allows one to pay tax on out of state purchases, but thats not his business either). Is this kind of thing common? can he actually collect state taxes for arizona? Is this just another part of his 35 dollar fee and he mispoke? I'm trying to see things from a shop owners prospective, internet transfers take a chunk out of his business but I did intend to buy lots of accessories and ammo from him when it arrives anyway.

can someone give me some good advice on this because I don't want to be too confrontational, the guy's got a few years on me and I'm sure I'd just cave in anyway, I don't want to be the jerk holding things up now that the gun has arrived. I suppose i could just fib and say i paid 250 rather than 425 or something like that, he doesn't know how much i paid unless he gets the info off the guy in arizona. Or i could tell him straight up that I'll buy a holster, bore snake and 200 rounds of ammo if he's not charging me arizona tax, just call him out and hope it gets me more respect...

[Flatfender]

Find a different FFL.

[otomik]

Find a different FFL.perhaps in the future, i've already paid 35 cash to this guy, if he makes me pay the arizona state tax i probably won't be buying anything from him in the future. i was looking for advice and other people's experiences like this.

[solareclipse]

what Flatfender said. this is robbery and he cannot charge you state tax on the value of the firearm! he can only charge you tax on the transfer fee if applicable since that is in state.

the only way you can be charged tax, is if the seller has a retail store in your state. i highly doubt that however.

[Monkeyleg]

Otomik, I suspect that your state's tax laws are similar to Wisconsin's. There may be a few states out there that aggressively collect sales tax on out-of-state purchases, but not many.

If you buy an item from a mail-order catalog company, does that company collect sales tax? Not usually, unless the company is in the same state as the buyer.

Here in WI, the onus of reporting an out-of-state sale is on the buyer, not the transferrer (the gun dealer).

The problem is that many state revenue departments have been harassing gun shops with regard to out of state transfers. Rather than fight the system, the owners have chosen to take the less painful route.

Here in Cheesehead country, the transferring shop can only charge sales tax on the service they provided, i.e. the transfer.

If I buy a gun on the internet, I only owe the shop 5.6% of their transfer fee. It's up to me to report the full value of the purchase price of the gun on my tax return, and pay the sales tax come April.

Of course, every citizen complies, whether it's guns or lingerie or old Pat Boone records. :neener:

Your transferring dealer is either paying sales tax to the state that he does not legally owe, or pocketing it for himself.

[gc70]

One thing that you might consider is to make sure the dealer shows on your receipt which state's tax is being collected, then let him know that you are going to mail a copy of the receipt to the state tax commissioner in both Arizona and your state. If I am not mistaken, it is illegal for a business to fail to remit taxes that have been collected.

[c_yeager]

He can (and should) charge you tax on the transfer fee itself.

If he is trying to charge you sales tax on a firearm bought from out of state that is out of line. That tax still needs to be paid (despite what you may have heard to the contrary) but it is your responsibility to send it in.

[Graystar]

You must check the tax laws for your state.

I believe most states with a sales tax also have an equivalent "use" tax which must be paid on out-of-state purchases. When they see the opportunity, states will pass regulations imposing a tax collection on sale items passing through regulated dealers.

So firearm dealers may be have burdened with the responsibility of collecting the tax on transfers that appear to be new sales. If so, they're going to do it because you never know when it's a tax guy testing you.

People forget that some state impose their own firearm dealer licensing on FFLs if the FFL wants to actually do business. As such, these guys are regulated. That's why a non-FFL outside of NYS is unable to mail a handgun to an FFL within NYS. The NYS regs don't allow it.

[Blue Line]

Thats what busted a sale for me down here. A member here from Kansas had a gun for sale, I found a dealer and he said the same as yours. I'm not paying him sales tax on something he didn't sale. I should have said like someone mentioned here, give me a sales reciept and I'll mail a copy to Fl and KS just to report the sale.

I bought a holster from a company one time and they pulled that line and I asked the girl if she really was sending in the tax to FL (they were elsewhere) and she didn't know what to say!

[Beren]

Anytime a dealer here tries that crap, I walk out and find a different dealer. However, that's PA, Ohio may be different. He /may/ be obligated to collect a USE tax - but he called it a sales tax. I'm inclined to think he wants to pocket the money.

Tell him that you don't believe he's authorized to collect the sales tax. If he does it, tell him you want it specifically itemized on the receipt showing which state it's for and that you will report it to both Arizona and Ohio's state revenue departments. Oh, and you're never going to walk into his store again.

[Gannet]

Pay it. If you won't he's likely to send the gun back. Next time ask first. A number of transfer FFLs insist on collecting the tax, but many do not. It seems like the retail gun stores are more likely to want the tax. Maybe it's in part because they don't want to be harassed by the state, and maybe in part because they want your internet sale to seem like less of a "deal". It seems like the retail gun stores often charge a higher transfer fee, too. Hmmm...

[HankB]

Sure let him collect sales tax . . . on the full $5 you paid for the pistol. (He only knows what you told him you paid, right?) :evil:

[Rockstar]

There shouldn't be a sales tax on a private sale. PERIOD!!!! What motivation would you have to tell him how much you paid for the pistol? It's none of his business. If you've already told him, and you're willing to pay the tax, then I guess you're doing so with your "eyes wide open."

[EvilOmega]

It seems like the retail gun stores are more likely to want the tax
That’s funny.
Me and otomik went over to the rome-hillard rd. Gander Mountain in Columbus today because I was out of cleaning patches, ball and CCI #11 percussion caps (don't like the Remington’s I have left) for my hawken and he was sick and feeling pent up. While we where there he asked about their transfer fees and tax, the guy at the counter said their fee was $25 and no "sales tax" from the other state. As I remember Aumiller gave him some *%#@ when he got his bersa, nice little shop and I love that it's like a five min. walk from a collage campus, but it dose seem a little shady. Might have to take your business elsewhere.

[Vex]

I second that. Aumiller's is a good gun shop (as in wide selection with knowledgable people), but every time I go there, I get the "Buy something or get the hell out" look, and when I ask if they offer discounts to police I get the "Stop asking stupid questions" look. I get the feeling they have a small client list, and stick to it.

[Thekatar]

Greater Pittsburgh Gun Club charged me $147.00 for an FFL transfer.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=99789&highlight=thekatar

[Matthew748]

Why not ask him to get the Ohio Department of Taxation on the phone while you are there? If you speak with an agent make sure you spell it all out for him or her. If he is honest, he may just be mistaken and unintentionally collecting sales tax that is not needed and fattening the state's wallet when he does not need to.

[EvilOmega]

Arizona
http://www.revenue.state.az.us/brochure/610.pdf

Casual Sales & Vehicles
Casual sales between individuals are not subject to the use
tax. Property purchased by a nonresident individual whose
first actual use or consumption of the property occurred
outside the state is not subject to the use tax if the property is
not used in conducting a business.
If you purchase a vehicle from an out-of-state dealer or
manufacturer, the Department of Transportation will require, at
the time of vehicle registration, proof that tax was paid in the
state of purchase and that the amount of state tax paid is equal
to or greater than the applicable Arizona use tax rate. If tax was
not paid in the state of purchase or was less than the Arizona
use tax, the Department of Transportation will require that the
use tax be paid at the time you register the vehicle.

Ohio

Link (http://tax.ohio.gov/RoboHTML/Frequently%20Asked%20Questions/!SSL!/Blue_Vevet/Frequently_Asked_Questions.htm)

A use tax is similar to a sales tax in its application. Use tax is imposed on the "storage, use or other consumption" of all tangible personal property and the receipt of certain services that are subject to sales tax. Purchases that are properly exempt from sales tax are also exempt from the use tax. Use tax must be paid on all purchases made by Ohio residents and businesses if the proper amount of sales tax has not been paid to the vendor, seller, or service provider. The use tax rate is equal to the sales tax rate in effect in the county where the property is used or benefit of the service is received by the purchaser.

Link (http://tax.ohio.gov/RoboHTML/Frequently%20Asked%20Questions/!SSL!/Blue_Vevet/Frequently_Asked_Questions.htm)

What sales are exempt/excepted from sales tax?

Casual sales except sales of motor vehicles, boats and outboard motors that are required to be titled, snowmobiles, documented boats, all-purpose vehicles, off-highway motorcycles and personal watercraft.


Food for thought.

[atomchaser]

It's your responsiblity to pay use taxes in Ohio (look at the OH income tax form). The dealer has no part in it. Like some else said, show him a receipt for $5 and tell him to send a check for 25 cents or whatever to AZ. I had a dealer in FL try to pull it on me. Gave a big long song and dance about it. I voted with my feet. I found a pawn shop that doesn't do it.

[Vex]

I'm starting to think that purchasing a firearm is so difficult, it's meant to deter people from doing it in the first place. You can thank your neighborhood liberals for this one. ;)

Okay, on to the issue. I just got off the phone with the Ohio Department of Taxation Enforcement Division. I explained the situation to them, and they said that Aumiller's can not legally charge a tax for a service that they are not providing.... i.e., the sale of said handgun. He can charge tax on the $35 transfer fee, because it's a service he's providing, and that service includes the storage and transfer of the weapon and any personal background checks. But he didn't sell the handgun. It's rightfully YOUR property, he just has to hold on to it until he confirms who you are, and that you're not a felon or something.

The tax is paid on your 1040 at the end of the year. There is a line on your 1040 (line 16 of IT-1040) in which you write the dollar value of items you received and did not pay tax on. The unpaid amount is subtracted from your refund (or added to your payment, in the case that you owe money), and the deal is done.

So when you go pick up your handgun, just tell whoever helps you that you were told by the Ohio Department of Taxation (ODT) that you will have to pay that tax on your 1040, and that you'd rather handle it that way. This way you know the tax was paid to the correct people and not just pocketed. If he gives you some excuse about Arizona sales tax, tell him you were told by ODT Enforcement that you will never have to pay tax to the sending state on out of state sales. If he decides to keep your weapon to be a jerk, call 1-800-757-6091, and tell them what happened. That's the number for ODT Enforcement.

Any questions, you've got my number.

PS. Evilomega, call me sometime. You're welcome to come over anytime you want.

[orionengnr]

you can enter your zip code or, I believe, area code and it will provide a list of FFL's along with the fee they charge. My first purchase in my newly adopted state, I did this and found that while several charged "sales tax" most did not. As such, I viewed it as a pocket-lining exercise and contacted one who does not. Been doing business with them ever since.

[Rockstar]

I'd never give some clerk in a state's taxing agency the opportunity to make a decision regarding whether I owed a particular tax or not. :eek:

[otomik]

I did this and found that while several charged "sales tax" most did not. As such, I viewed it as a pocket-lining exercise and contacted one who does not. Been doing business with them ever since.that was helpful, but it is appropriate to charge sales tax if the transfer is in the same state.

Looking into the matter further it seems in both Ohio and Arizona there is an exemption for "casual sales" (except when it involves vehicles), and in spite of beaucratic hurdles like the NICS check and yellow form this is a sale from a private individual to another, neither involved professionally as licensed vendors, qualifying as "unusual or infrequent", etc.

I think I'm just going to make a few printouts to keep in my pocket should the situation arise and try to step in there with a positive attitude, prepare for the worst, hope for the best. thanks all.

[c_yeager]

There shouldn't be a sales tax on a private sale. PERIOD!!!!

Your gonna have to explain to me how buying something from a retailor is *not* a private transaction.

In fact, what is a public transaction in the first place?

[toivo]

I believe most states with a sales tax also have an equivalent "use" tax which must be paid on out-of-state purchases. When they see the opportunity, states will pass regulations imposing a tax collection on sale items passing through regulated dealers.In NY State, which is pretty tax-heavy, you only pay NY sales tax on out-of-state purchases if the seller has some kind of "physical presence" in NY--like a retail store, or a business office, etc. So if I order from Sears, even if my order is made over the phone to some other state and shipped from there, I pay NY tax, but if I order from L.L. Bean, who have no retail stores or business offices outside of Maine, I don't.

My experience is that some FFL holders charge tax on the fee, some don't, but nobody has ever tried to charge me tax on the purchase price.

[Kharn]

Ask the dealer for his Arizona tax certificate number. Every state issues a number to anyone authorized to collect that state's tax. If he doesnt have one, he cant legally collect tax for them.

Kharn

[idakfan]

That's total B.S.

I've never paid tax on a FFL transfer.

Go to a different FFL.

[Graystar]

In NY State, which is pretty tax-heavy, you only pay NY sales tax on out-of-state purchases if the seller has some kind of "physical presence" in NY--like a retail store, or a business office, etc. So if I order from Sears, even if my order is made over the phone to some other state and shipped from there, I pay NY tax, but if I order from L.L. Bean, who have no retail stores or business offices outside of Maine, I don't.

That's right. But you have to pay a use tax.


New York State Consolidated Laws
Tax
Part II Imposition Of Tax
S 1110. Imposition of compensating use tax. (a) Except to the extent
that property or services have already been or will be subject to the
sales tax under this article, there is hereby imposed on every person a
use tax for the use within this state on and after June first, nineteen
hundred seventy-one except as otherwise exempted under this article, (A)
of any tangible personal property purchased at retail,...

(b) For purposes of clause (A) of subdivision (a) of this section, the
tax shall be at the rate of four percent of the consideration given or
contracted to be given for such property, or for the use of such
property, including any charges for shipping or delivery as described in
paragraph three of subdivision (b) of section eleven hundred one, but
excluding any credit for tangible personal property accepted in part
payment and intended for resale.