Gangsters have junk guns?


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Monkeyleg
October 2, 2005, 07:13 PM
I was just watching "Donnie Brasco" for the umpteenth time last night. There's a scene in which a rival mob captain and his crew are shot and then cut up.

In the scene, Al Pacino's character is banging on a side-by-side to open it to reload, and having difficulty.

Other gangster movies, such as "Goodfellas," have similar scenes with guns that don't work.

I'm just curious: for all the money that La Cosa Nostra guys were always flashing, did they go cheap on their guns? Or did they just use whatever stolen guns they could get their hands on, and dump them after the crime?

I knew a few "wiseguys" years back, but never asked them about their business.

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SouthpawShootr
October 2, 2005, 07:25 PM
Probably has to do with having to get their guns from someone other than FFLs. Most of these guys have felony records. That means straw buyers or black market. Most of these guys wouldn't go for flashy stuff, just your basic meat & potatoes type semi, revolver, or shotgun b/c they know they'll lose it if they get frisked. I'll bet their guns work most of the time and the stuff you see in the movies is more a director's imagination for dramatic effect.

I knew a few "wiseguys" years back, but never asked them about their business.

Good thing you didn't. Arouses suspicion from get go. Imagine Clemenza saying "Paulie? You won't see him no more." :D

Monkeyleg
October 2, 2005, 07:43 PM
"Good thing you didn't. Arouses suspicion from get go. Imagine Clemenza saying "Paulie? You won't see him no more." "

I did commit a faux pax in one of the bars one time. My landlord, Tommy "The Fish" Piscetello, and I got to be pretty good friends. I was in a bar called Frankies one night with my wife, and just asked if anybody had seen Fish lately.

The whole place went quiet, and I knew I'd said something wrong, but didn't know why.

That was when there was a lot of fighting between the Balistrieri's and the Jennaro's. Maybe Fish was on the wrong side. Don't know.

Trivia question: what's Clemenza's real first name? You only hear it said once in the entire movie.

SouthpawShootr
October 2, 2005, 08:04 PM
Trivia question: what's Clemenza's real first name? You only hear it said once in the entire movie.

For some reason, I'm thinking it was Peter. I seem to remember Tessio addressing him as "Pete" when they were talking about the old style toilet in the restaurant where Micheal kills Solozo (sp?) and McCluskey.

rbmcmjr
October 2, 2005, 08:17 PM
Surfed across "The Godfather" last night just in time to see the Michael Corleone carry out his hit. I'm pretty sure that he used a Detective Special. I had to chuckle at the description of the "special tape" used on the grips and trigger.

Rick

dfariswheel
October 2, 2005, 08:35 PM
"he used a Detective Special".....
Nope, it was a S&W Model 36 Chief's Special, which is an anachronism.
You can plainly see the S&W cylinder latch on the frame.

The Chief's Special wasn't introduced until 1950.
The movie takes place in 1945-46.

I've read a number of cases of mobsters trying to kill someone, only to have the gun fail.

One case involved two hoods walking down a dark street with another mobster marked for death.

The gunman dropped back one step and attempted to shoot the other in the head.
The gun misfired TWICE.

Unbelievably, they managed to convince the victim that they were playing a practical joke with a toy gun.

The shooter then got the gun working and killed the other.

Many mob guns are stolen guns of uncertain quality and condition.
They seldom actually fire one to check if it works.

Another true story involves several gangsters buying a sack full of stolen guns and taking them to Jersey to test fire them to see if they were any good.
They wound up throwing most of them away.

Most mobsters are not gun buffs.

Old Fuff
October 2, 2005, 08:39 PM
Crooks have no problem getting firearms, and this is true of organized gangs in particular. A movie or TV portrayal isn't necessarily true. I would take the "junk-gun" story with a grain of salt. Thugs as individuals might not be so well off.

NMshooter
October 2, 2005, 09:05 PM
The bunch of bikers who once controlled the area behind the Century Rio 24 theater here in Albuquerque had an M-60, an M-79, and a whole lot of assorted small SMGs, the MAC clones predominating.

The more money involved the higher quality of people and therefore firearms there will be.

All Hollywood stuff aside some National Guard armories have had shortages for decades, amazing what folks with enough money can buy...

And anything in government armories anywhere south of the border all the way down to Tierra del Fuego is pretty much for sale.

Group purchase, anyone? :evil:

Monkeyleg
October 3, 2005, 12:10 AM
SouthpawShootr: you win the prize (whatever that is). I've been asking that trivia question for years, and you're the first one to get it right.

As for that "special tape" that Clemenza put on the grips and trigger, that tape looked a lot to me like duct tape. And Michael (Pacino) had his hands all over that revolver before the hit.

And how do you leave a gun loud, so as to scare off innocent bystanders, as Clemenza said? Increase the cylinder gap? Sounds real safe to me.

Second trivia question: on what day and what year was Vito Corleone born?

Cosmoline
October 3, 2005, 04:24 AM
I did commit a faux pax in one of the bars one time. My landlord, Tommy "The Fish" Piscetello, and I got to be pretty good friends. I was in a bar called Frankies one night with my wife, and just asked if anybody had seen Fish lately.

"Fish sleeps with the fishes"

:D

DontBurnMyFlag
October 3, 2005, 10:46 AM
I have actually heard stories of mobsters getting good military hardware off the black market. And not Ak-47's. Ive heard about the mob using Mp5's, mac11 , m16, and assorted handguns from glocks, berettas, S&W to the ever popular desert eagle.

Depending on what mob your talking about, they have different access to weapons. I take a organized crime class that focuses on the yakuza, la cosa nostra, and the black mafia. The black mafia had mostly junk guns like .32 pistols ,assorted 9mm pistols, shotguns etc. The yakuza did alot of fighting and assasinations with swords but had access to guns as well. La cosa nostra had the guns listed above. but nothing takes the cake like the russian and chinese mobs. The chinese mob has access to all sorts of chi-com weaponary through the black market. AK-74's and other goodies. But the russians have it all. The russians have AK-74u rifles, RPK machine guns, AK-47's and all sorts of other russian military hardware. They are probably the most well-armed organized crime group in the world. Crazy bastards too.

chuckles
October 3, 2005, 11:36 AM
NMShooter wrote: The bunch of bikers who once controlled the area behind the Century Rio 24 theater here in Albuquerque had an M-60, an M-79, and a whole lot of assorted small SMGs, the MAC clones predominating.
Now that is scary. When I was in RVN, a Marine I knew, he was from Albuquerque, told me he had sent home a new M60, M79,a couple of AKs, M16s and other "stuff" He worked in baggage customs to facilitate the "shipment". Now it seems reasonable that the firearms ended up as you describe. :eek:

Monkeyleg
October 3, 2005, 07:07 PM
There's some biker gangs in WI that have a lot of full-auto's as well. Don't know if the guns are Form 4'ed or not. I used to shoot on an IPSC league with one of the guys, and he'd talk about all of them getting drunk and cutting down trees with their subguns.

The movie "Casino" is just about 100% accurate. The real gangster--forget his name--that Joe Pesci played in the movie really did have his guys shoot up a cop's house with full-auto's.

gm
October 3, 2005, 08:44 PM
"Fish sleeps with the fishes" .. if you get a fish wrapped in a cloth as a gift.. a definate bad omen :D

jefnvk
October 3, 2005, 08:57 PM
My guess would be that it varies.

Take a young street punk with his first piece, it is probably whatever was in whatever house he or someone else was robbing. Might be nice, might be cheap, might be rusted up or brand new.

Start talking about more organized groups, bikers and international rings, and it isn't too hard to see expensive, good guns in the picture.

Monkeyleg
October 4, 2005, 12:24 AM
OK, but nobody has answered my question: on what day and in what year was Vito Corleone born?

Hint: you need to watch "Godfather Part 2," and take notes.

As for what happened here in Milwaukee in the 1970's, Balistrieri seemed to solve all his problems with a couple of car bombs.

Probably one of the most vicious gangland killers was "Little Nicki" Scarfo out of New Jersey.

Do some reading. This guy killed everybody that ever crossed him.

cracked butt
October 4, 2005, 12:40 AM
There was a vehicle theft ring at Fort McCoy several years ago who would steal vehicles in broad day light. They had clerks on the inside and people who posed as contractors on the outside. The clerks would tag or log vehicles for repair and the contractor would go on base, load the vehicle on a flatbed and drive right out the front gate. They stole a whole mess of vehicles including tanks, jeeps, APCs, etc and sold them on the surplus market. If something like this can be done with large vehicles, it can surely be done with automatic weapons.

SouthpawShootr
October 4, 2005, 12:05 PM
OK, but nobody has answered my question: on what day and in what year was Vito Corleone born?

Well, there seems to be a bit of a debate about this one.

Seems according to Godfather II, he was born Dec 7, 1892 (he was 9 years old in 1901 when his father insulted and was subsequently killed by Don Ciccio). This also fits in with the Godfather - remember the discussion at the dinnertable in where Sonny was talking about the gall of the Japanese attacking Pearl harbor on his father's birthday? Overall, I think this date is correct.

Another position from the Godfather was that he was born April 28, 1887. I've read that this was the date on Vito Corleone's grave marker in the Godfather & I looked for it last night when it was on, but it was just a flash and I couldn't see it very well. Have to go to the DVD.

How about it?

Oleg Volk
October 4, 2005, 12:58 PM
BTW, the book lists the assassination gun as a .22 with expanding ammo. Puzo isn't much of a gun guy...

The three-DVD set has interesting outtakes, including one of a gunsmith for the mob...

Sleeping Dog
October 4, 2005, 01:38 PM
"Fish sleeps with the fishes"
Someone put the mussel on him.

Monkeyleg
October 4, 2005, 07:42 PM
SouthpawShootr, you win again! Don't know about the book, but you're right about the movie. You must have watched it as often as I have. My tapes are just about completely worn out, so I'll have to go out and spring for the DVD set. At least I'll get to see the gunsmith scene that Oleg referred to.

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