[P95Carry]

This crops up in general conversation at times but I have been thinking as to why (generally) it is the semi's that seem to exhibit this most.

I think grip characteristic affect things to some degree .... for instance a Browning HP seems to me to want to torque slightly more than my P95, which is inherently ''chunky''. Both these have approx 120º of rotation clockwise imparted on the bullet ... and thus the perceived torque in the hand is counter clockwise.

Quite the worst I ever experienced ... in as much as it seemed all outa proportion to both cal and power, was the Baby Browning .... quite marked torque.

Wheelguns OTOH, seem to exhibit minimal torque (to me) ... so .... a function perhaps of better grips? - possible. Longer barrel lengths in some cases? - doubt it. Weight distribution? - maybe.

I'm an engineer and so should have a cut and dried answer i feel ... tho maybe never really stopped to analyze in depth .. and maybe i am missing an obvious factor ...... quite possible.

I know with 9mm, that being the high pressure round it is, this may have some influence ..... 45's seem less prone.

Interested to know your thinking ....................

[Hkmp5sd]

Could be that an autoloader absorbs and uses some of the recoil to cycle the action, which allows the perceived twisting motion to be greater than with a revolver, which transfers more of the recoil to your hand/arm, masking the twisting motion.

[P95Carry]

Yep ... indeed, reduced rearward energy could indeed make a difference .. whilst all wheel gun recoil comes right back in full. Thx . another good factor to consider.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

P95Carry-

Have you shot any single actions in larger calibers? In my experience the most torque I’ve felt was .44 Magnum out of a Virginia Dragoon w/8” barrel. Near to twist my hand off. My personal view is that the shape and position of the single action grip frame precludes getting a high grip on the firearm, therefore the axis of the bore is higher above the firing hand increasing the perceived torque you describe.

I think that sounds right…

[New_comer]

Is the torque you're referring to that tendency of the gun to "bend" your arm after a shoot is fired?

If so then I believe it's a function of the balance of the gun's CG.

A revolver's CG stays the same point it was before and after firing. The shooter is dealing only with the "jet" effect of the releasing gasses as trying to rotate the gun round it's axis.

A semi's CG however changes position before firing to about half an inch further back in the hand in a split second at full recoil. That way the recoil force is essentially changing the overall balance of the gun's weight against the choke of gripping the handle, hence the perceived bending stress within the hand/arm.

:scrutiny: Have I just written that??? :scrutiny: ;) :cool:

[P95Carry]

Actually New_Comer - yep that will /must have effect ...... as you say, center of mass does shift rearward with a semi and so this must reduce perhaps some of the ''damping'' force exerted by the forward mass. Good point.

QBG . again ......... you have another good point i think. I use some real hot loads in my Blackhawk .... and yeah there is some torque but ... let's say it seems ''in proportion'' to the load. The higher axis of bore in relation to grip contact area will most surely tend to encourage more perceived torque effect.

Mind you .. I have special grips on my Blackhawk and from choice take the highest grip I can .. admittedly that reduces the gun's ability to rotate as fired .. and so my perceived recoil is perhaps higher ..... but torque is certainly very acceptable for cal....... relative to my 9mm observations anyways.

[Nick96]

The only perceved torque I've ever felt from a handgun was a Charter Arms .44 Spl Bulldog - 3" barrel. I chocked it up to a light frame (about 20 oz.), smallish grip, a heavy bullet (around 245 grain) and a realitivly slow charge (about 800 FPS).

Never felt it with any .22, .25, .32, .38, 9MM, .357, .45 or even .44 Mag. - in a variety of different size & weight handguns.

Go figure???

[P95Carry]

Maybe Nick I should put more emphasis on ''perceived'' ... but I am quite big, (215) .... large hands ... and so kinda expect this to be a fairly common observation.

I shall ''go figure'' ..... :) :p :D

[QuarterBoreGunner]

Damn but we is a brainy bunch!

Talkin' physics and engineerin' and stuff.

heh...guns go 'bang'




just trying to keep it real yo'

[Handy]

I have never noticed a handgun twisting around its bore axis.

I would imagine it would be most pronounced in a high velocity gun with minimal muzzle flip (the flip would hide it). But as it has never happened to me, and I have several guns that recoil almost straight back, I don't know.

[sanchezero]

Maybe it has something to do with the mechanism of ejection. I notice it alot in tiny pistols light a PM9. I can twist nearly 60deg if I don't keep a firm hold on it.

I haven't fired a beretta in a while, but I'd be interested in how they (with their open tops) compare to a pistol with a side mounted ej port.

[Island Beretta]

Handy:

To build on your point, this clearly shows up with the Glock 17. This happens in all semi-auto because of the changing Centre of Gravity (as eloquently stated by New-Comer); however it is more noticeable with the Glock 17 because of the low muzzle flip and high velocity hexagonal barrel.

[P95Carry]

Maybe it has something to do with the mechanism of ejection. I notice it alot in tiny pistols light a PM9. I can twist nearly 60deg if I don't keep a firm hold on it. Excellent point Sanchezero ...... certainly, in as much as a right eject must add something, even small, to the rotational effect.

At the moment the case is struck by the ejector and then freed from extractor claw, there must be some degree of equal and opposite reaction .. which in the cases of my P95 and FEG, ADD to the axial torque due to bullet spin.

I mentioned initially, quite the worst (disproportionately so) semi I found this in was the Baby Browning! Intrigued tho by those who have stated they never find this torque effect at all .... gotta be to do with grip and hold I guess.

[yesterdaysyouth]

preacher curls seem to correct the problem ..... more forearm and bicep mass will tame the mighty 44.... :D


too bad it won't tame the massive headache after 50 rounds... :uhoh:

[JohnKSa]

The worst torqueing I ever experienced was firing a .38 snubbie revolver. I couldn't tell if which it wanted to do worst--flip up out of my hand, or twist out of my hand from the torque.

[Mylhouse]

Unless I'm misunderstanding the kind of torque that you describe, the handguns that seemed to 'torque' the most in my hands were the ones with long (frontstrap to back) and thin grips. The P7M8 was the gun whose torque I noticed the most. Then the Makarov. IME.

[zeke]

The "torquing" may be directly related to bearing surface and bullet weight, acting on the rifling "twist". For me this is fairly noticable when comparing different load' POIs in a 45 LC revolver. Is also reason generally prefer 200 LRNFPs in these revolvers for pleasure shooting. For me, they are easier to shoot more accurately, on a more consistent basis. Not to mention less recoil.

[Texas Bob]

The "torque" effect is the cause of "early" P9 problems made greater by using an offset feed ramp. The "first" gen P9 I had, had a visible "empty" space around the trigger transfer bar. That frame was "destroyed" by kahr and replaced last summer with a "third" gen frame that has a noticible "buildup" of polymer surronding the transfer bar as compared to the old frame. No problems in the last 6mo or 500rds.:)