[dxkj21]

If I wanted to buy my father a handgun, what would i have to do to make it legal?

thanks

[Pietro Beretta]

I think its easier to take your dad into a gunshop, YOU pay for it, but have him choose the firearm and do the paperwork and everything in his name.

My brother bought me a firearm for my 21'st, of course he did everything in his name and such. So for it to be mine, we now have to submit a transfer form and Fee to our DOJ. Also we must do the transfer through a FFL dealer, and the dealer will also charge a Fee to handle this request. Since I live in CA I also must wait 10 days after the transfer to pick it up.

(I live in California by the way, it might be different where you live.)

[MM]

In Tennessee, I bought my girlfriend an XD and wrapped it up and gave it to her for Christmas. Your state may be different.
SatCong

[rellascout]

What state are you in? I VA you can purchase it an give it as a gift as long as the person receiving the gun is not a prohibited buyer and they live in VA. Laws will differ from state to state but as long as your stat allow face to face transfers of firearms between indivduals residing in the sate you should be okay. Also I advise typing something up showing that you transfered the firearm to your father just in case something happens down the road.

[Pietro Beretta]

( I wish it was that easy here in CA) :(

[Boarhunter]

This is not, nor is it intended to be, legal advice, but...

At least as it relates to federal law, it is my understanding that you may purchase the firearm yourself with an intention of later gifting it to your father without violation of law, because you are the true and actual purchaser of the firearm in the first instance. That situation is distinguishable from an illegal "straw purchase" in which one person buys a firearm for another to avoid the true intended purchaser's obligation to complete the federal forms.

So here in Alabama, I can purchase a firearm and thereafter gift it to my child bride for her birthday, but I could not (and would not) take money from a buddy and purchase a gun for him (a classic, illegal "straw purchase").

If you have a questions regarding federal law (and likely, the laws of your state as well), my experience has been that the ATF is more than happy to help explain the rules and regulations (as are most legitimate gun dealers).

Boarhunter

[Ala Dan]

Hello All-

In Alabama when two persons enter a gunshop, and one selects
a firearm (and fills out the 4473) but another dips into his/her wallet,
purse, or pants pocket and presents the funds to pay for said purchase;
this constitutes what is known as a "STRAW PURCHASE", as it
raises suspicion as to the truthfulness of the response of question
12 (a) in the sub-paragraph questions.

WARNING:
" Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form?"

"You are not the actual buyer, if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on
behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer
cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you".

BTW, we are required by law to deliver any firearm only to the
said person who completes form 4473, and passes the "Insta-Check".
As far as buying a firearm as a gift (for someone else); so long as the
"buyer/purchaser" has completed the 4473 and passes the background
check, I don't see a problem with that so long as the firearm is not
delivered knowingly to a person that is forbidden from possession of
a firearm.

[mr.trooper]

What about states that have different ages of ownership, and purchasing?

For instance, in Indiana, when one is 18 they can OWN a handgun, and get permision to CCW. you canot, however, BUY a handgun untill your 21.

So if someone buys you a gun that you can legaly own, but not purchase, is it the same thing as a straw purchase? Or does that depend on who pays for the gun?

[Ala Dan]

ATT: Mr. Trooper

In the Indiana case, I think it would depend at which point in time
the 18 year old received his/her handgun; and which gov't form 4473
applies, as they are constantly changing (updating, as they like to
call it) the rules of the game. The form I referenced is the latest
BATFE form. It has a 10-2001 date, and states "ALL PREVIOUS
FORMS ARE OBSOLETE".

In my way of thinking, it would take a well qualified attorney (which
I'm not) to decide the legal issues at hand. :D Maybe, one will come
along shortly to give us some friendly advice? :scrutiny:

[Ol` Joe]

In Michigan at one time, and I believe it still stands it is illegal for a FFL dealer to sell to a minor under the age of 21. The 18 year old or over can though buy a handgun from the guy next door, his/her dad, or other non licensed seller. This is still going to require the buyer to have a permit to purchase from his police dept filled out by both parties, and the "safety check" still has to be done within 10 days. I believe the 21 yr old requirement is a federal law and the 18yr old legal ownership a state law.

As the others state, DON`T TRUST LEGAL ADVICE FROM THE INTERNET, check your states laws to verify.

[Ala Dan]

Here in Alabama I cannot legally sell any handgun ammo to
any person less than 21 years of age. This includes rifle/shotgun
ammo that may be used in a pistol or revolver.

Examples*: .223 Remington (AR-15 pistols) and .410 gague shotshells
as they can be used in a Bond Arms derringer. Yes, we do check ID's
if suspicions are raised about age.

* Not all possible combinations~! :uhoh:

[Boarhunter]

This is not, nor is it intended to be, legal advice, but...

I practice law in Alabama...and only in Alabama! And although I represent a major firearms retailer in this state, my one-stop source for information is often my buddies at the ATF. Some may not have as good a relationship with ATF as I do, but my experience with them has been nothing but helpful.

Boarhunter

[Ruger Redhawk]

You can not sell or give a firearm to a person who lives in a different state other then the one you live in. Must be residents of the same state.At least that's my understanding.

Ruger Redhawk

[Ala Dan]

At this time, handgun sales outside YOUR state is PROHIBITED!

Long gun transactions can be completed (transferred) to residents of an
adjoining state only. Example: a dealer in Alabama may transfer a
long gun to a resident of: Georgia, Tennessee, Mississippi, or Florida.
But it would be illegal for the same dealer to transfer said long gun to
a resident of Kentucky~! :uhoh: :(

Source: AFT Regional Office in Birmingham, AL
David Hyche, ATF Agent In Charge

[newfalguy101]

where o where does some of this stuff come from :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

As per Federal law:

As long as your father is in the same state and not otherwise prohibited from possesing a handgun, you can legally purchase said handgun and give it to him as a gift.

Any person can LEGALLY go to ANY state and purchse any LONGGUN, as long as, and this is important THE transfer would be legal in the BUYERS and SELLERS homestate. [18 U.S.C. 922 (a)(3) and (5), 922 (b) (3), 27 CFR 178.29 ] the "green" book

Handguns MUST be SHIPPED to the buyers homestate, NO crossing state lines to purchase a handgun EVEN for FFL holders :banghead:


oh and yea, I am an FFL

Anybody that cares to dispute my answer, please do so with ATF references.

Also remember, IF in doubt about ANY firearm transfer question the ATF HAS the final say!!

[Ala Dan]

Any other FFL holder's care to chime in~? :uhoh:

How 'bout "in-house" ATF agents? :D

All opinions welcome! :)

[Ala Dan]

Come on guy's (or gal's); how 'bout some mo' lawyers~? :uhoh: :D

[Ol` Joe]

Here is a link to Federal gun laws, and if you search they also have links to state law sites.

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/FederalGunLaws.aspx?ID=60

Hope it helps...........

[silent one]

Hi all,

It seems to me, the prudent thing to do, would be to fill out the appropriate forms at your local FFL's place of business. It's always better to be safe, than sorry. ;) It's worth the fee charged by the FFL, just to know you are covering your butt.:uhoh:


SILENT ONE

[thatguy]

A straw purchase is buying a gun for someone who is prohibited from buying it himself. If you buy a gun with the intention of gifting it to someone who is not prohibited from owning a gun that is legal under federal law. If you do it a lot it will draw attention but an occasional gifting is no big deal.

Check your state law. CA does (in most cases) and other states may require FFL involvement in the transfer.

[Boarhunter]

"A straw purchase is buying a gun for someone who is prohibited from buying it himself. If you buy a gun with the intention of gifting it to someone who is not prohibited from owning a gun that is legal under federal law."

Thatguy,

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this statement to be inaccurate in being too limited (i.e., illegal if the ultimate recipient is prohibited from ownership).

If A buys a gun for B (other than a gift situation), I think it is an illegal straw purchase, regardless whether B was lawfully able to purchase the gun himself.

Am I wrong?

Boarhunter

[Zundfolge]

A straw purchase is buying a gun for someone who is prohibited from buying it himself.
No, a straw purchase is buying a gun for someone else so they don't have to fill out the 4473 ... doesn't matter if said person is perfectly legal to purchase and would pass the background check.

Buying as a gift is NOT a straw purchase because you are buying it and paying for it and then giving it away ... just like if you buy a gun today and decide you don't like it so you sell it to a private individual tomorrow.


The law SHOULD be that a straw purchase is buying a gun for someone who's prohibited, but its not. Frankly the law is clumsy and stupid here ... and I believe that is by design (so that someday they can decide every gifted gun was a straw purchase and screw us all).

The only 100% safe way to buy a gun as a gift is to buy a gift certificate at a gun shop for the value of the gun and let the gift recipient go pick it up and fill out the 4473.

[TimboKhan]

No, a straw purchase is buying a gun for someone else so they don't have to fill out the 4473 ... doesn't matter if said person is perfectly legal to purchase and would pass the background check.

This is the correct definition of a Straw Purchase.

[Zundfolge]

Here, the ATF has this little cartoon that explains it all

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/theater/toon4.html

/me goes and gets some popcorn
(there are 8 toons in all ... not sure what the parent link is, but you can watch each one by changing the url to toon1.html, toon5.html, etc)

[newfalguy101]

As cheesy as that cartoon is Zundfolge, it explains in no uncertian term whats what as far as straw purchases and gifts.

[Ala Dan]

Att: Boarhunter

You are absolutely correct my friend~! :D At least that is the enforcement
procedure that the ATF is using in my particular area. Go figure :uhoh:

[thatguy]

OK, I will amend my statement to:

A straw purchase is GENERALLY when someone buys a gun for someone who is prohibited. There may be rare, very rare, extremely rare cases where the straw purchase is made for some reason other than the person who really wants the gun is prohibited.

But it's rare.

[thatguy]

BTW- The video seemed to hint that only Bobby's father or other relative could buy him a pistol as a gift. Couldn't any adult do it? Mr. Thomas certainly could argue that he was buying Bobby the gun as a gift and just letting him pick out the one he wanted.

Like all gun laws it gets confusing if you think about it too much.

[WarMachine]

The more I read into the "straw purchase" restriction, the more asinine it sounds. Let me get this straight.

Let's say person A is going to purchase a SIG 220 for person B as a gift for their birthday (both are legally able to purchase and own a firearm). If person A pays and fills out the form and then transfers the pistol to person B it's a legal transfer.

However, if person A is going to purchase a SIG 220 for person B so that they will not have to fill out a form (even if both parties are legally eligible), then it's an illegal straw purchase???

I am probably getting this wrong, but who could possibly make the distinction? Whose to say that the transfer was or was not a gift :confused:

[newfalguy101]

There may be rare, very rare, extremely rare cases where the straw purchase is made for some reason other than the person who really wants the gun is prohibited.

Such as you picking up a firearm for a buddy at a gunshow????


OOOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STRAW PURCHASE :neener: ;)

not all that unusual and it happens quite often I'll wager.

Couldn't any adult do it?

Technically yes.

But the way the cartoon presented it was that "Bobby" was having "Mr Smith" buy it on his behalf, which is illegal.


And you are right ATF and in fact most firearm laws are a pain to try and "interpret" which is why ATF has all the FAQ's in plain everyday easier to understand language.

[newfalguy101]

Warmachine:


In a nutshell you are right.

Lets try to keep in mind the original intent of this though guys, its to keep RESTRICTED persons for having an easy way to get around the 4473, heck before NICS, I imagine plenty of people just lied on the 4473 and didnt think twice about it.

Laws by their very nature are directed toward people who tend to OBEY the law anyway, which is why we get so upset at rediculous laws, we are apt to follow them even if we think they are dumb.

To put this in another light, lets say someone was buying dozens and dozens of "saturday night specials" and KNOWINGLY reselling them to known badguys who may someday stick that ol' chunk of pot metal in YOUR Face. Now wouldnt you prefer that ATF catches the initial STRAW PURCHASER BEFORE they have a chance to sell the gun that kills you??????????????????????

[MDG1976]

In MO per my CCW instructor:
You need to get a permit to do the transaction, BUT, if you fail to get the permit, the statute of limitations is on year and the only way they'll know that you bought the gun without a permit is if you tell them (unless they run the serial number anf the gun comes up as stolen).

[thatguy]

Most laws require criminal intent. If you just buy a gun for a buddy at the gunshow because he had to work that day and couldn't make it out there to buy it for himself, and he's not prohibited, I would argue that there's no criminal intent so no infraction. At the risk of having the ATF at my door (actually, the statute of limitations is long past by now) I have to admit that I've been on both ends of these deals on more than one occasion. I've had friends buy guns for me when I couldn't make it to the sale and I've done it for others. We weren't trying to break any laws, but I guess we did. Ooops. That makes about 1,000 gun laws I've broken in the past 38 years, I reckon. Funny, but I don't feel like a criminal. I feel like a regular citizen oppressed by stupid regulations that infringe on my Constitional rights.

[newfalguy101]

I reckon we have all fractured a law or two along the way.

I guess I look at it this way:

A guy buys a gun at a show for a buddy:

Is it illegal?yea
If you get CAUGHT will you go to jail? likely
Does ATF care that a guy picked up a gun for his buddy at the gunshow?? not really, and heres why:

In the grand scheme of things we dont matter to ATF, they have bigger fish to fry, they are considerably more concerned with the real criminals who KNOWLING break the laws and KNOWLING continue the activity.

Face it, we arent worth the cost and effort of prosecuting for a SINGLE straw purchse, or for any other number of small insignificant issues.

Does that men I advocate breaking the law, heck no, they can add em up and literally make a federal case of it afterall :neener: , and besides is it really worth losing your ability to ever posses guns again if you get caught :scrutiny: ????????

I also dont really believe that the ATF monitors all the gun related forumns, that would require a small army in and of itself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

on the off chance I am wrong about the last statement, does anybody know a good lawyer????? :uhoh: :uhoh:

[Ala Dan]

I will share this story with you~! :D

Recently, at a local sporting goods store here in my area the ATF put into
action a "STING" operation. One Friday morning, shortly after 0900 hrs
three subjects entered the store; 1-male accompanied by two females.
One female asked to view a Taurus PT-22 that was a display model.
Upon closer examination, she said " I will take three of those".
The sales person then asked, "Are these guns for YOU"? After
a brief pause she replied, 'Why YES".

Upon completion of the 4473 and clearing the background check, the
three firearms were delivered to said purchaser. At this time, the lone
male reaches into his pants pocket and pulls out the funds to pay for
the purchase. After the exchange of money (and receipts) the trio
exited the business; at which time ATF agents moved in and seized
the firearms, and arrested the male subject (a convicted felon), and
the female purchaser. Turns out, the third party (the other female)
was an ATF agent.

The purchaser (first female) was conducting a "straw purchase" for
the male; who was to take the above mentioned firearms to New
York for re-sale. Next day, the ATF pops in at the business ready
to bring grief upon the owner; stating that his employees should
have reconized that sale as a "straw purchase".

I know, I was there on both occassions and witnessed that with
my own eyes~! :uhoh: :scrutiny:

[dxkj21]

So what about this situation?

I buy a gun, shoot 500 rounds through it, and then sell it to a friend for 50$ less than I paid for it.... what do I have to do to make sure it is legal to sell this to my friend?

[Ala Dan]

Depends on many factors, that has already been discussed. In my
home state of Alabama, all that is needed would be a certified* bill
of sale with both parties signatures. And if you wanted too carry
it one step further, you and your friend go down to the local SO
with the bill of sale and have said firearm transferred into your
friends name. All probability, first time handgun owners would
need to apply for a CCW license; provided that both parties lived
in the same county. Under Alabama law, a sheriff of one county
cannot issue a CCW license to a resident of another county.

*Footnote: witnessed by a Notary.

[newfalguy101]

buy a gun, shoot 500 rounds through it, and then sell it to a friend for 50$ less than I paid for it.... what do I have to do to make sure it is legal to sell this to my friend?

In Nebraska, if a handgun you are BOTH required to have a purchase permit, if a longgun, take his money, say thanks and be on your way, having a copy of a bill of sale would also be a good idea


When selling to a stranger, I would suggest getting some kind of picture ID to at the very least check the age, and requiring a purchse permit for ALL transactions is probably wise. If they have a PP then they have passed a background check and are more than likely ok to sell to.

Requirements will differ, sometimes rather wildly, from state to state.

When in doubt, ask a trusted FFL holder in YOUR own state what the state requirements are.

[TimboKhan]

Holy Balls. While accurate, that was the most mindnumbing, craptacular cartoon ever.

[marklbucla]

you and your friend go down to the local SO
with the bill of sale and have said firearm transferred into your
friends name.

How does this work? I thought AL or the Feds didn't keep a register of guns.