Anti-CCW business and sheriff hassles in Ohio


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Turtle Club
October 3, 2005, 09:53 PM
CCW is fairly new here in Ohio. I often get into arguments with merchants about my rights as it pertains to entering an establishment with my concealed firearm. But today I was detained by the local law enforcment. A store that I buy a lot of stuff called the Sheriff's Office on me, because the cashier saw the handle of my 9mm when I was getting my wallet. I admit, I should have concealed it better, (however, the law states I dont have to if I wish not to...as long as I have a permit.) To start my story: The Ohio Revised Code states that "...carrying a concealed weapon can be prohibited by businesses that display a standardized sign at the entrance." But, these ignorant Anti Gunners did not display ANY notification of their intent to prohibit firearms at the entrance. They did have a sign at the cash register, also the on an entrance matt inside the store as you walk in. It has the standardized symbol embroidered on it with the verbage "NO GUNS". Who the H. E. double hockey sticks looks at the damn entrace mat in a store? After I had been in the store for over an hour, I come to the check-out and he sign was literly posted at every cash register, stuck to the mini-table that you would use to write a check or sign a receipt. The sign was the size of a business card and the words on it not legable. Of course, the police came as I was leaving. The merchant didnt even say anything to me. They ran my licence, and checked my credentials and gave me a whole lot of hell. They would not listen to my side of the story. I was in the right, they sign was not displayed at the entrace. After an hour of my time wasted that I could have been playing with my son, I went on my way...minus 20rounds if amunition and they made me disasemple my gun. This also comes from a damn anti-CCW Sheriff. They even know my I work for the Department of Youth Services as a Juvenile Corrections Officer (but I am not comissioned so I am basicly a glorified babysitter.), they still give me a hard time. AlsIf it would have been the township Police Department, they would have told the merchant to put up the correct sign and left it at that. I am just wondering if I have any sort of lawsuit against the Sheriff Office considering the political views of the Sheriff being anti-ccw and the fact they gave me such a hard time? Any views anyone?

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antsi
October 3, 2005, 10:03 PM
Calling the cops on you was an over-reaction on their part. Just having a polite word with you, reminding you of the store's policy, should have sufficed.

Generally I respect the rights of people to be idiots on their own property. If they want to ban guns on their own private property, I figure they have that right. Of course, we also have the right not to do business with them any more.

CentralTexas
October 3, 2005, 10:47 PM
Have you ever been speeding and got caught?
Did they make you remove your wheels and tires and steal your gas also?
I've never sued anyone but in this case I would try as someone must stand up to this crap! Call the press if anyone will listen about the theft and harrasment.
Don't put up with police harrassment. You were not in the wrong as they hadn't posted per the statute correct? Held you up for an hour, made you atke apart your weapon and STOLE your ammo? How did you feel about going home defensless? It may affect your sex life and ability to work. Are you dreaming about cops beating you etc. for no reason?
CT
:cuss:

Don Gwinn
October 3, 2005, 11:11 PM
Sorry, but no profanity is allowed--and since it didn't seem to have any connection whatsoever to your post ( :confused: ) I just went ahead and edited the title for you.

Andrew Rothman
October 3, 2005, 11:15 PM
* That sucks. Call the Sheriff and demand that your property be returned, and an apology issued.

* Welcome to The High Road

* PARAGRAPH BREAKS!

Molon Labe
October 3, 2005, 11:43 PM
Here's a similar story from another Ohioan:

http://www.packing.org/community/leo_encounters/listview/2445

Assuming you have the money, I'd sue the dickens out of them.

Turtle Club
October 4, 2005, 12:16 AM
As in the story in that link, which is very compelling. Ohio needs standardization. I checked Websters Online and came up with this:

stan·dard·i·za·tion:Main Entry-stan·dard·ize: established or widely recognized as a model of authority or excellence; "a standard reference work"; conforming to or constituting a standard of measurement or value; or of the usual or regularized or accepted kind; "windows of standard width"; "standard sizes"; "the standard fixtures"; "standard brands"; "standard operating procedure"

However, I do not see that anywhere. The sign approved by the Ohio Attny General as the approved standardized sign looks like THIS (http://www.ag.state.oh.us/web_applications/concealcarry/documents/cc_hb12_sign.pdf)

However, merchants still make their own homemade signs post them wherever they want...like on the celing. Thats it! Im moving to Texas !

MikeIsaj
October 4, 2005, 12:24 AM
Sloppy law enforcement will exist to the extent that the citizens tolorate it. This is why anyone who CCW's should understand and be able to cite the appropriate law. Two things happen, you don't get baffled with the BS that some substitute for law, and your ability to have an intelligent informed discussion, makes others less inclined to harrass you. The lion eats the slow and weak, not the strong.

I would meet with the Sheriff and demand my ammo be returned and an apology for abusing me for exercising my rights in a lawful manner. Since you describe him as an anti-CCW, don't hold your breath. If you don't get satisfaction, get a lawyer. Don't let them get away with sloppy work.

I am not anti-LEO, this isn't bashing. I am against anyone who represents their personal opinion as law.

mnrivrat
October 4, 2005, 03:54 AM
It would seem to me that there is a possibility for a lawsuit against the Sheriff department.

Siezing private property like your ammunition may be the basis , as well as making you render your firearm inoperative , even though you were within the law.

With that said, the cost to bring such a suit maybe hard to bear for an individual. I would check around in your state for advocate groups that could help you , or possibly contact the NRA who may be able to help you, or direct you to someone who can.

I think the first amendment still reads to protect you from siezure of personal property without cause.

If at all possible , I would encourage you to pursue something against what happened . It was the LEO's and the store who did not comply with the law - not you.

OH25shooter
October 4, 2005, 10:05 AM
I went on my way...minus 20rounds if amunition and they made me disasemple my gun.
That's interesting. Was this Canton PD or some Barney Fiffe department? I don't understand the reason for taking your ammo, or why you had to breakdown your weapon. I'm not taking sides here, but in all honesty, we are only hearing your side of the story. The ammo had to be turned into the PD property room under your name. You should be able to get it released. Each department is different. Most larger departments will require a detective release of a firearm or ammunition. Regarding your question "can I sue the County Sheriff?" Yes of course. But you better be ready to dip into your savings. It's going to cost some bucks.

AirForceShooter
October 4, 2005, 10:19 AM
call the NRA and ask for some support.
Write to your local paper.

AFS

NoahFN
October 4, 2005, 10:21 AM
As a fellow Ohio resident this kind of police action infuriates me. I don't believe there was any cause for them to confiscate your ammo, or to disassemble your gun. Once you are outside of the store, you should have been in compliance with the law.

I'm not sure what will happen if/when this happens to me, I don't think I could afford to sue....but I would definitely contact a lawyer and atleast get their take on the situation. Followed up with letters to the Sheriff, the NRA, and other 2nd amendment advocate groups supporting concealed carry.

Let us know what you decide to do, and how it turns out.

FPrice
October 4, 2005, 10:25 AM
Actually, this is the NRA organization you should contact:

http://www.nradefensefund.org/

"The NRA Civil Rights Defense Fund was established by the NRA Board of Directors in 1978 to become involved in court cases establishing legal precedents in favor of gun owners.

To accomplish this, the Fund provides legal and financial assistance to selected individuals and organizations defending their right to keep and bear arms.

Additionally, the Fund sponsors legal research and education on a wide variety of gun-related issues, including the meaning of the Second Amendment and nature of the right to keep and bear arms provisions in state constitutions."

Working Man
October 4, 2005, 10:32 AM
Sue and seek to press charges for theft.
Laws must govern all men or they govern no one. :fire:

armoredman
October 4, 2005, 11:12 AM
Post the name and location of the anti store, so any reading here doesn't accidentally patronize them....

TheEgg
October 4, 2005, 12:15 PM
I often get into arguments with merchants about my rights as it pertains to entering an establishment with my concealed firearm.

Please elucidate. If you are properly concealing your handgun, I need you to tell me how you end up in all these arguments?

No merchant has ever had the slightest idea that I was armed. Thus the opportunity to have an argument with one has never arisen. So, just curious.

thatguy
October 4, 2005, 01:25 PM
This is why there are lawyers. Sue the Sheriff's Office for infringing on your rights. They had no right to detain you and they had no right to steal your property (ammo).

I don't know why so many cops in Ohio are having convulsions over legal concealed carry. No problems ANYWHERE else but they insist Ohioans will shoot each other. Ask these cops and politicians why they think the good people of Ohio are less trustworthy, safe, and honest than people in Wyoming, Oregon, Utah, West Virginia or any other state with a history of concealed carry.

Sheesh.

I recall the newspaper in my state running a story on the eve of concealed carry becoming legal and some cop was quoted as saying that any armed citizen could expect to be thrown to the ground and handcuffed if his gun is detected in public. I wrote and told him that he could expect a lawsuit if they did that to me. I always wanted to own my own police department...

rock jock
October 4, 2005, 01:39 PM
They had no right to detain you I don't think that is true. They were investigating a possible violation of the law. Where they went off into left field is continuing to detain you even after the facts had been presented, which, if accurately presented, would seem to indicate that you had not in fact done anything illegal.

I would also add that we don't have the other side of the story. Were you argumentative or confrontational with the cops? Did you stick to the situation at hand or go off on a rant about the injustice of anti-CCW attitudes? I don't know if you did these things or not, but unfortunately I can envision a lot of gunowners doing just that. And while it may make one feel better, it does nothing to help bring a quick resolution from the police.

KnightHawk67
October 4, 2005, 02:09 PM
Most of the problem in Ohio is that we have a percentage of Officers that believe they are the Law, and the rest of us should know that. I personally have run across this attitude a couple of times, but they were not gun related, so I will keep them to myself.

I am not a LEO basher, I have a grand-father & an uncle that were Police Officers. It just seems that a few people in the latest few generations of Officers have this "God" complex and you cannot get past it.

:banghead:

mnrivrat
October 4, 2005, 02:12 PM
I would also add that we don't have the other side of the story. Were you argumentative or confrontational with the cops? Did you stick to the situation at hand or go off on a rant about the injustice of anti-CCW attitudes? I don't know if you did these things or not, but unfortunately I can envision a lot of gunowners doing just that. And while it may make one feel better, it does nothing to help bring a quick resolution from the police.

Just curious wether you think being argumentive with an LEO (particularly if you are in the right) would justify what they did in this case ?

Should we walk and talk like sheep around law enforcement to prevent them from making up their own versions of the law ?

Should we give up our rights under the law in order to avoid confrontation with an LEO ?

Should we be scared of LEO's ?

Not trying to be a smart a$$ , I am in fact curious .

rock jock
October 4, 2005, 02:38 PM
Just curious wether you think being argumentive with an LEO (particularly if you are in the right) would justify what they did in this case ? There is a difference between a debate and an argument. Presenting the facts in a calm, reasoned manner is not being argumentative. Becoming emotional meets the definition of an argument. And no, I don't think it behooves anyone to argue with the cops. If you disagree with them, fine. Collect as much information as you can and contact your attorney. You aren't going to win a court case on the sidewalk.

axmurderer
October 4, 2005, 02:54 PM
:cuss:

mnrivrat
October 4, 2005, 03:02 PM
And no, I don't think it behooves anyone to argue with the cops. If you disagree with them, fine. Collect as much information as you can and contact your attorney. You aren't going to win a court case on the sidewalk.


Thanks Rock - I think that answers one of my questions anyway - The one about wether we should be scared of the LEO's .

rock jock
October 4, 2005, 03:21 PM
Thanks Rock - I think that answers one of my questions anyway - The one about wether we should be scared of the LEO's .
You have a lot to learn about courage......and wisdom for that matter.

cxm
October 4, 2005, 03:29 PM
Get a Lawyer.

Sue seperately (so they must all incurr expenses:)

1. The Merchant personally
2. The company
3. The Sheriff
4. The Dupties
5. The Sheriff's office

Filing suits is cheap for you... expensive for those sued... if we all take such actions it would be an object lesson to those who trample our rights.

FWIW

Chuck

FPrice
October 4, 2005, 03:31 PM
You have a lot to learn about courage......and wisdom for that matter.

There is courage, arrogance, and wisdom.

rock jock
October 4, 2005, 04:02 PM
There is courage, arrogance, and wisdom. If you have something to say, just say it.

Henry Bowman
October 4, 2005, 04:19 PM
OK. Before anybody gets their nose out of joint...

In Ohio it is a crime to carry in an establishment that has conspicuously posted that it is forbidden. There is no specified sign (a la "30.06"). This is not an "It is a trespass if you don't leave" thing. It is a crime. It only affects CHL licensees. Not just in that criminals don't pay attention to signs, but that if a non-licensee carries concealed (a crime), it is no greater crime or additional crime if they carry in a "No Guns" establishment. The law expressly only affects CHL holders.

Technically, Ohio is an open carry state. In fact, you are require to open carry (or lock it up) while in a motor vehicle.

Both of these things are markedly different from Texas law. Until 18 months ago, Ohio had been a "no CCW at all" state for many, many generations.

Arguments - discussions - debates. No one said he was yelling and screaming. (At least he didn't say that.) I am an attorney. I argue for a living. I don't yell and am not driven by emotion when I do so. DON"T READ SO MUCH INTO HIS SAYING THAT HE "HAS ARGUMENTS" WITH IGNORANT STORE MANAGERS. :banghead:

My advice to the original poster: Don't file a lawsuit when a phone call would take care of it. Try the soft touch first. Escalate only as required in response to your inquiries.

And if they have NO GUNS on their "welcome mat," exactly who are they welcoming?

TheEgg
October 4, 2005, 04:53 PM
DON"T READ SO MUCH INTO HIS SAYING THAT HE "HAS ARGUMENTS" WITH IGNORANT STORE MANAGERS.

For myself, I read nothing into it at all. I just asked him to clarify how this comes to happen. I believe that there is nothing inappropriate in any way in asking a poster to further clarify something they have written. Do you?

Oh, and by the way, no need to shout. :cool:

HankB
October 4, 2005, 05:08 PM
I'll assume the whole incident went down exactly as stated . . .

At the minimum, file a complaint with the police department's Internal Affairs unit and report theft by cop. Whether they act on it or not, making a formal complaint ought to at least make it into the crooked cop's jacket (and he IS a crook, he DID rob you) which may cause him problems in the future when he robs another citizen.

Turtle Club
October 4, 2005, 08:07 PM
I was not argumentative with the LEO's. I was polite and calm. Hell I didnt want my a** slamed to the ground or worst SHOT. I wasnt rude or argmentative to the merchant either.

For myself, I read nothing into it at all. I just asked him to clarify how this comes to happen. I believe that there is nothing inappropriate in any way in asking a poster to further clarify something they have written. Do you?

You are right. My verbage was not the most thought out. I dont take it to the point of yelling and screaming. Also, if a store has a conspicously posted sign at the entrance, I am happy to comply. I go to my car and lock it up. However, what urks me is when there is not sign posted at the entrance but they have a sight say at the cash register, in my case.

At this point, its too late, I am already leaving. So why post a sign at basicly the exiting area of the store, advising of their inent when the customer is leavig anyway. Thats great. I'll keep it in mind for next time. But what about this time?

My point about the comment is that, I simply bring up the fact that they should conspicously post the sign in a noticable spot at the entrance. Where a rassional reasonable person would see it.

Most of the time they thank me for pointing the fact out. However, the stubborn people will say it doesnt matter if its postage on the receipt, *acctualy had that before too*, once notification is given, then the CCW Permit holder must obide. That is agreed on my part as well.

All I want is a conspicously posted sign and I am happy.

mnrivrat
October 4, 2005, 11:00 PM
You have a lot to learn about courage......and wisdom for that matter.

I learn something new every day guy - that's why I ask questions .

If one has to be concerned about things like, being thumped to the ground or arrested , or having your legal rights taken from you , or needing a lawyer if you choose to "debate" with an officer, then my point is made - We need to be scared of LEO's .

It may be wisdom for some to cower before these types of LEO's , but that says nothing much about having courage. It simply points out that we apparently must fear the consiquences if we stand up for our rights. No matter how politely it is done. What does that tell you about the direction this is taking us ?

Once again, in this case ,as stated, there was an abuse of power . The majority of LEO's are not like that. The ones that are, need to be held responssible , lest they contaminate the system.

These type's of abusive LEO's , who overstep their authority are also the type that any challenge to their control will result in an arguement as you understand it, rather than a debate as you express it.

I'm not offering a perfect solution . Simply food for thought . Perhaps asking for a supervisor to be called to the scene to answer why your property is being confiscated and your right to defend yourself is being taken away.

If something done was in fact illegal , then perhaps a sitation would be in order . But if no infraction of the law was present, then why should a citizen accept being harassed in this manner ?

Dragun
October 4, 2005, 11:15 PM
TheEgg
"Please elucidate. If you are properly concealing your handgun, I need you to tell me how you end up in all these arguments?

he was open carry, which is legal. if you don't read the whole thread, then you miss some things and ask irrelevant questions.

SUE SUE SUE!!

TheEgg
October 5, 2005, 11:52 AM
he was open carry, which is legal. if you don't read the whole thread, then you miss some things and ask irrelevant questions.

There is not a thing wrong with my reading comprehension, thank you. Please reread the following from the original poster.

A store that I buy a lot of stuff called the Sheriff's Office on me, because the cashier saw the handle of my 9mm when I was getting my wallet. I admit, I should have concealed it better, (however, the law states I dont have to if I wish not to...as long as I have a permit.)

This states explicitly that he was carrying concealed and that he accidently 'flashed' his handgun. The fact that the law allows open carry was not relevant to this particular situation, I think.

I simply wanted to know how it was that he got into arguments with these merchants. He was kind enough to answer that question to my complete satisfaction (thank you for that, Turtle Club!). He was simply trying to pro-actively get them to post proper signage. No problem, good work.

Thank you, and have a nice day.

Rezin
October 6, 2005, 01:36 AM
he was open carry, which is legal. if you don't read the whole thread, then you miss some things and ask irrelevant questions.

Not to mention the title of the thread is "Anti-CCW"

Anyway....

I have to admit, we in PA don't see many of those signs, and even when I do encounter them, I KNOW that them seeing my weapon is slim to none, and I'd be MORE concerned with concealment in a situation like that.

I let few people know I am packing. A few neighbors, a few friends who are also into firearms, and thats about it. Serioulsy, those who know me in "real life" MAYBE 10 people know I CCW almost all the time. I have even slightly adjusted my daily attire to better conceal. I think the concealment is the best part. We can open carry in PA, but I'd rather have the advantage.

Let NO ONE know it's there, and good heavens, don't argue with someone about it. It should be your secret, it is a tactical advantage.



I'd write the store a letter, letting the managers/owners know they lost your biz, and why. As a business owner, I HATE to lose a customer. Hit em in the pocketbook.

MDG1976
October 6, 2005, 08:11 PM
In Ohio it is a crime to carry in an establishment that has conspicuously posted that it is forbidden.

That sucks. In MO, it's not a criminal act to carry into a "no guns" establishment. If you get "made" they can ask you to leave, if you refuse to leave, you can be charged with trespassing.

Hook686
October 6, 2005, 09:42 PM
Look at the bright side ... you were not arrested. Personally I think you could have been, as the notice was posted at the entrance ... on the mat. That you did not look down seems to me not relevant, other than perhaps an indication you were not exactly aware of your surroundings completely ... I'm think just because someone carries is no excuse to lapse in situational awareness, or carelessness by letting the handgun be seen.

If the standard definition is open to interpretation, guess whose interpretation will be accepted ?

Be happy you got away with your gun, money and did not spend the night at city expense. :D

Hook686

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