[enfield303]

I was over at a friend's house last night for supper, it's a standing Monday night thing. After dinner my friends sister(who is a Junior in high school) asked if I would help her out with an essay she had to do for American History. The era that they were discussing was the Revolution and Constitution. After some thought, she decided to do a workup on the Bill Of Rights. Guess what. NOWHERE in her history book was there a copy of the text of the Declaration Of Independance, the Constitution, or the Bill Of Rights!!! Am I missing something? How in the name of Zeus' Left Nostril do you teach about a document without a copy of said document in front of your students? All there was was a BRIEF summary of the ammendments.
This just floored me! I was homeschooled. We had a copy of ALL those documents ON THE WALL. I can quote from any of them at will. How can we expect our children to know and treasure these freedoms if they aren't taught them?

[wingman]

Public schools went south many years ago, we now produce consumers
nothing more.

[longeyes]

In trouble is an understatement.

We have our own "madrassas," folks. Don't think we don't.

[Working Man]

How can we expect our children to know and treasure these freedoms if they aren't taught them?

Far be it for me to stir any trouble.... but that's the idea.

Make sure you tell her how it is suppose to be and that she writes a report
that will floor them at the school. :evil: Just make sure it is done well
with supporting text and proper use of the facts.

[xd9fan]

Wingman you are right on. The lack of the documents are by design :cuss:

[Carl N. Brown]

When I was a kid the local VFW gave me a hardbound
booklet with the Declaration, Constitution and Bill of
Rights which has been one of my prized possessions
for a half-century.

In the U.S. Constitution, the government entities have
Powers and Authorities; people have Rights and Privileges.
Kinda makes you think that the Standard Model interpretation
of the Second Amendment ("right of the people" in 1st,
2nd and 4th Amendments = individual rights) is correct.
Maybe that is why the government (schools) do not
want students to be confused by learning facts.
In the 1950s I felt my school wanted to mold me into a
a good subject rather than a good citizen.

[Camp David]

How can we expect our children to know and treasure these freedoms if they aren't taught them?

Ask the child's teacher that question... demand an answer! Then... when the teacher pauses... deer in headlights stare... tell him/her that you gave the student your copy of the U.S. Constitution...

Such proactive stances work wonders for teachers!

On behalf of our youth, we need to educate them ourselves!

[dasmi]

How can we expect our children to know and treasure these freedoms if they aren't taught them?
You aren't supposed to expect you children to know and treasure these freedoms. Public schools turn out mindless drones, who need the state to survive. It's up to all parents to teach their children the true history of America at home, cause they won't get it at school. I don't have children, but when I do, I will make especially sure I know what is being taught in their history classes.

[rick_reno]

The NRA used to sell little pocket sized booklets that had all the essential documents in them - Bill of Rights, Constitution, The Declaration of Independence and Important Dates to Remember. These booklets cost $1 and are an excellent investment in our future.

If they're still available - pick up 50 of them and get them distributed to students. Have kids bring them to school and pass them out. We aren't going to fix this mess by bitching about it here.

[Rockstar]

Key words, Dasmi, "I don't have any children." Get back to us when your first is about 14-yrs-old and let's see how "cute" and well-informed that little prodigy is! :evil:

[dasmi]

Key words, Dasmi, "I don't have any children." Get back to us when your first is about 14-yrs-old and let's see how "cute" and well-informed that little prodigy is
First, my kids will be damned cute, because, well, I'll be their dad :)
Second, all my statement meant, was that I will make sure I know what is being taught, and attempt to correct in flaws in said teaching.

[Working Man]

Have kids bring them to school and pass them out. We aren't going to fix this mess by bitching about it here.

Great Idea rick, she could have it as part of her presentation.

[xd9fan]

Gun owners of America still sells little books like that for $1
they are great....I have bought a couple dozen to "spread the love"
www.gunowners.org

[TallPine]

I fully expect that the day will come when it will be a crime to possess any of those documents :(

I mean, why do you "need" to read the Declaration or Constitution for yourself ...? Your govt will tell you everything that you need to know :rolleyes:

[DonP]

I bought my daughter, the semi-liberal English teacher at a local high school, a little "gift book" copy of the Bill of Rights. It enumerated each of the 10 rights and included speeches and writings by famous Americans from the past 200 years on each of those rights from Patrick Henry to John kennedy to Ronald Reagan.

At first she took it as a joke from her conservative father, but I suggested she ask some of her class if they knew anything about the BoR.

A few weeks later she told me she was using the book for a class unit and connecting it back to the writers of the period (had to have an English related tie in). It's hard to read Patrick Henry and not learn something about the powerful feelings that drove the founders. It's now a basic part of her lesson plan every year and she says most of the kids get a lot out of it.

All of you probably know at least one teacher. Get a copy for them as a gift and suggest they ask their class about it. It's a grass roots way to fight back at the ignorance.

[migoi]

deleted by author

migoi

[enfield303]

Migoi,
Since this is my thread, I for one, would like very much to hear what you would have to say. I think her Dad was as flabbergasted as I was, and wouldd like some advice.

[migoi]

is be involved in your child's school.

The first time a parent contacts the teacher should not be when there is a problem. Don't just turn your children over to the school to be "educated", look at the school as a resource you use to educate your children. Volunteer in your child's classroom and not just to bake cupcakes. Realize that as time goes on teachers actually have less control over the content of what is being taught in the classroom.

In the particular case that started this thread, there is a good chance the teacher did not get to pick what textbook is being used and almost certainly did not get any input into what went into the textbook. Can she supplement..surely. Are those documents available in the classroom? We don't know, they could very well be plastered right up on the wall like was available to our homeschooled individual, they could have been handed out and crammed into the student's desk, or available in book form on a bookshelf in the classroom.

Lastly, before going into full blast-the-teacher-as-incompetent mode make sure all the facts of the situation are known. Accepting without question the statements of a child as to what was said or done in a classroom is negating that idea that distortion in the communications process is often induced when a bunch of kids are involved. Are all teachers paragons of virtue and competence? Nope, but the overwhelming majority of the ones I've known and/or met are in the profession because they truely want children to succeed. They are usually open to constructive, realistic ways to improve. If of course the local community has not created rules that don't allow for that improvement.

migoi

[Justin]

The Cato Institute has pretty nice copies of the pocket constituion and Bill of Rights for sale. (http://www.catostore.org/index.asp?fa=ProductDetails&method=cats&scid=15&pid=144278-A)

[Brandon]

I have had my share of bad teachers in the past too, but they were few, most of my teachers were great.

Most teachers are flabbergasted at the lack of parent involvement in the educational process, evaluate yourself first.

Look for the teacher as an ally first, most will be glad for the help and will listen to ideas. Don't insult them for the "deer in headlights look"! That will only cause problems and make a situation with a bad teacher worse.

The teacher DID NOT CHOOSE THE BOOK, usually the brown nosed teacher that gets all the favors picks the book. The rest of the teachers in the dept. make do.

The assignment was probably given BECAUSE it's not in the book. Think about that for a minute.

We don't know all the instructions/directions for this assignment. How many resources does the student have? We know about the book, how about the library, media center, internet etc? Is this due tomorrow?

This is the main reason I DONT USE TEXTBOOKS ANYMORE. All of my lessons are research and problem based. I too was tired of the crap found in textbooks--- really don't get me started on books, we would be here for a long time. Much of my masters degree is devoted to this problem.

ALL of the teachers I know want parent interaction. Do me a personal favor though, call the school for an appointment or check in with the office first. Don't barge into a classroom. If you want I am sure the administration can arrange for you to observe unannounced - but make sure someone knows you are there. Treat a school as a very secure installation with VERY VALUABLE contents. There are security issues.

If anyone wants to talk education, let me know we'll find somewhere to do it. I am a classroom teacher and I WILL be blatantly honest with you.

Thank you and take it easy.

Brandon

Don't flame me for any grammar errors, it is my weak point and I am not an English teacher. Our Lit teacher does carry though, along with approx. 60% of the rest of the faculty when we are not at school...that's another discussion.

[Amusetec]

IMHO Help the teacher how about buy a bunch of pocket constitution and BoR and give them to the teacher to hand out. So they do not have to buy them.
When I was in 7th Grade and that was early 70's I had a very good Texas History teacher I remimber on the first day of school he told us to open up our text books read a couple of passages out of it and then threw it in the trash can and said that is about all that is factual in it. He was working on his Phd in history and new Texas history form the writings of the time not what some pinhead wants you know.
Help out the educators by offering to help them with some outside material.
Then you will know the true feeling of the teacher.

[Standing Wolf]

This just floored me! I was homeschooled.

I think I've just identified the problem. Your parents evidently wanted intelligent, well rounded kids.

That's been out of style quite awhile, you know.

[MDG1976]

Public schools went south many years ago, we now produce consumers

Very well put Wingman. I was an education major for sometime and spent several years working with 5 to 12 year olds. Todays teachers (elementary especially) are almost without expception left wing. If you think the country in general is too PC, spend sometime in a classroom. Today's children are being brainwashed and are taught to appease anyone. They'll be confonted by hard truths when they make it into the "real world". And they will not be prepared.

[El Rojo]

I am a conservative teacher and I give them my conservative agenda. I teach life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness. Now how many kids are awake and care is another question. I after all teach at a continuation high school where the most important subject of the day is their choice of alcohol or their method for smoking marijuana or crack. Trust me, that subject gets old quick. What a waste. Oh well, you try and save a handful and those few make it all worth while.

[Dionysusigma]

http://www.bordersstores.com/web_images/products/00/40/61/c/40616504_c.gif
http://www.bordersstores.com/search/title_detail.jsp?id=40616504&srchTerms=declaration+of&mediaType=1&srchType=Title

The site lists $4.95, but when I worked at the local Borders a year ago, they were $1.00... get a bunch and pass 'em out.

[silverlance]

My first reaction to this thread was, "This is another PS bashing thread indirectly aimed at teachers by those who have never had the responsibiliy of educating anyone more than themselves."

But I've come to think that perhaps, as an english teacher in PS, I should try to meet the challenge instead of rebuffing it.

If anyone has a poster sized copy of any of the three major documents, or knows where I can get them, I would like to post them on the walls of my next classroom (my HS teachers change classrooms every four months due to overcrowding).

If anyone has suggestions on how I might, as an English teacher and firm believer in the liberty of man being the most prized benefit of being an American, incorporate these documents into my pedagogy, I am open to suggestions.

Bear in mind though, that I hold the educating of "children" into critical, reasoning beings of objective intellect in far higher importance than convincing them of the sanctity of the constitution. After all, it isn't.

[silverlance]

PS: a LOT more teachers (even those here in roll-over-and-play-dead california) own guns (even if we can't carry them) than you think. and of all the professions, being a teacher is one of the most difficult to marriage with gun ownership. the risks of becoming tomorrow's headlines is magnified as not only many of you folks here at THR (and I say this completely without rancor), but the scandal-hungry media, find great delight in decrying "the state of public education today".

while a doctor might be given a small fine - pocket change for him, no doubt - if he is convicted of carrying a concealed weapon without a permit, a teacher would be castigated, fired, and made a public spectacle of.

those of us CA teachers who own guns, indeed, rarely even discuss guns in our profession, and certainly never bring up the issue of gun ownership ourselves.

so - please try to work with teachers. as others have suggested, buy copies! volunteer to talk about your profession in the classroom (esp. if you are LEO)! bring cookies for the kids! invite friends of your kids to go with your family to the range - make it a picnic day! the list of things that you can do to improve the situation goes on -

[Dionysusigma]

While a doctor might be given a small fine - pocket change for him, no doubt - if he is convicted of carrying a concealed weapon without a permit, a teacher would be castigated, fired, and made a public spectacle of.

Not all doctors are wealthy. Just the dishonest ones.

However, I'm afraid to say that these days, a good deal of parents that themselves were born after 1974 see their kids more as pets than as people. This, in turn, transforms the teachers into hardly more than baby-sitters for irresponsible brats that won't listen and will never own up to anything.

What the heck happened? Didn't kids used to get jobs by mowing lawns, shoveling snow, doing a paper route, and selling lemonade? They played rough and in the dirt/mud, had BB gun wars, fell out of trees, built their own forts, went camping for the weekend, and rode bikes. They got dirty, scuffed up, bruised, the occasional scrape (which left a cool scar to show off later), and just once (or so they say) would accidentally break a window or damage a fence. They'd face up to the rightful owner, hat in hand so to speak, and offer to do chores around the house until they paid off the debt. Or they'd fix it themselves.

Now all kids have is TV, console/PC games, junk food, lazy/lousy parents, drugs in high school, and the constant message of "sex makes you cool." They sleep through class, have a candy bar and soda for lunch, sleep through more classes, get out of school and go to a friend's house to get stoned. They show up late for dinner (though admittedly with a healthy apetite), go upstairs, and instead of study for the test in History they have the next day they play on their PS2 for hours.

If you think we're in trouble, I think we're already there. Wherever that is.

[/Rant off] Geez, where'd that come from?






Disclaimer: I may be hypocritical, but I'm working on it. ;)

[stevelyn]

I suppose it would be easier to teach the socialist revised version of Constitution and Declaration of Independence by not handing out copies of the original text to the students.

[tulsamal]

I agree that a US Government or US History text book should have an appendix in the rear that includes the The Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Conferderation, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.

BUT.....

It is 2005. 99% of today's students over fifth grade could download and print their very own copy of the Bill of Rights in less than five minutes if they wanted to do so. What is printed and bound into their personal bundle of dead tree material doesn't matter NEARLY as much as it did 50 years ago. Then the textbook was all the student had. Now it is just a starting point.

Gregg

[Tokugawa]

My daughters history teacher was covering the Ferguson rifle and the use there-of in her school (private). There are some very good schools out there. Altho I was dismayed to find out that apparently no one in the place was familiar with English history as they had scheduled a " Wog-a-thon" ! to raise money! And this in a school with a large south asian population!

[Crosshair]

My mom is a conservative teacher. She has to be carefull of what she say's. BTW around 200 or so my history books (From around 1992 or so) still had the constitution in it.

[El Rojo]

those of us CA teachers who own guns, indeed, rarely even discuss guns in our profession, and certainly never bring up the issue of gun ownership ourselves.Ask any of my students what Mr. Rojo likes to do in his spare time and they will tell you he is a gun nut. Heck they even know I am starting a gun business and I tell them as soon as they turn 18 to buy their guns from me. Why be scared of your hobbies? Better yet, why be scared of your 2nd Amendment rights? If I get fired for believing in what I believe, then that is what was meant to be. I don't shy away from the liberal administration. Then again maybe it helps that my principle is a tough old gal at age 59 that still does rodeo roping every weekend and she has her CCW too. She still was concerned I was going to have an issue of Guns and Ammo in my room, but oh well, she won't ever come down to my room to check it out. We can shy away from these kids or I can teach them proper gun safety and the gun laws. Just this morning I was discussing self defense with them. One kid said, "You just shoot in the air three times and then you can shoot them." They need all of the help they can get.

[enfield303]

I like the way this thread is going. I really appreciate ALL the input from my fellow High-Roaders. Thank you all. (Forrest Gump voice on) Mama also tawt me my manners.(Forrest Gump voice off) :D

[Pilgrim]

I fully expect that the day will come when it will be a crime to possess any of those documents.
Just remember that a big issue in bringing about the Reformation of the sixteenth century was Latin only Bibles so that the great unwashed masses had to rely on the priests to know what the Bible said.

Pilgrim

[longeyes]

"those of us CA teachers who own guns, indeed, rarely even discuss guns in our profession, and certainly never bring up the issue of gun ownership ourselves."

Fear, shame, or just playing the game?

It's NOT a social disease. It's legal in California. Still.

[geekWithA.45]

I've canvassed several school districts, to see how many of them you can graduate from without having been taught fundamentals of American civics, such as "distribution of powers in a scheme of checks and balances."

The answer, so, far, is all of them.


Oh, yes, we are indeed in trouble.

DO NOT OVERLOOK the impact of textbooks in this mess.

Teachers do not choose their text, nor does the principal or the school district. Basically, school books are sold as package deals, and they pretty much have to live with whatever the publisher gives them.

It's big, big biz, and apparently not subject to normal market forces, which do not provide an explanation as to why a book which would cost me $4 @ Barnes & Noble costs the school district $12, especially since the SD is buying them by the score.



Here's a nice, printable Bill of Rights:

http://www.agtiger.com/~gwa45/pictures/thebillofrights.pdf

[TheEgg]

The Contitution and Bill of Rights are now on the list of subversive documents. The penalty for having such items is 25 years in a re-education camp.

Press release from the near future.

[Thin Black Line]

These documents are no longer included in history books because we
are in a period of revisionist history. The documents are no longer
seen as relevant for instruction to the masses since the documents
are no longer followed, and for the most part, no one cares that they
aren't.

The Consitution reserves the declaration of War to the Congress,
does it not? When was the last time that Congress declared war
before our troops were sent out to fight? WWII. (I'm not counting
the Gulf War's "use of force" hedged wording). We the American people
have allowed this contiuous bending of the Consitutional rules and
it's no wonder now that it's broken. You can only wiggle something
back and forth so many times before it snaps.

Why have We the People allowed this? Simple. We've traded our
freedom for security.

[MrTuffPaws]

In high school, the DoI and the US Con were not covered in detail in history. They were covered in Poly Sci. which was part of that civics class my last year. Still though, the depth was about 1" on the deep end of the pool

[GunGoBoom]

what's a madrasses longeyes?

[Michigander]

Don't worry; they passed a law...


Via legislation, public schools are required to teach about the Constitution (only?) one day a year: September 17.

SUMMARY: The Assistant Deputy Secretary for Innovation and Improvement
announces that, pursuant to legislation passed by Congress, educational
institutions receiving Federal funding are required to hold an
educational program pertaining to the United States Constitution on
September 17 of each year. This notice implements this provision as it
applies to educational institutions receiving Federal funding from the
Department.

source: http://www.ed.gov/legislation/FedRegister/other/2005-2/052405b.html

[GunGoBoom]

and geek, agree that the teachers or principal don't choose the textbooks, but disagree that the school board doesn't . The board actually DOES get to choose among several competitors' textbooks (even if bought in bundles, a school board can choose the best bundle). That decision by the board is where the metal meets the meat. Write your school board members, or talk to them.

[pax]

If anyone has a poster sized copy of any of the three major documents, or knows where I can get them, I would like to post them on the walls of my next classroom (my HS teachers change classrooms every four months due to overcrowding).

If anyone has suggestions on how I might, as an English teacher and firm believer in the liberty of man being the most prized benefit of being an American, incorporate these documents into my pedagogy, I am open to suggestions
Silverlance ~

Good post.

If you Google for "Constitution" "Bill of Rights" and "poster," you'll find more resources than you can shake a stick at ... including this one from the gov't itself which looks interesting: http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/98-68.pdf Looks like you can get posters of the Constitution, the Declaration, and the BOR for around $20.

As for incorporating them into your English classes, do you make the students diagram sentences anymore? Seems to me that some of the grand, rolling phrases from the Founding documents would be great fodder for that.

For comprehension exercises, you could have students analyze the arguments in the Declaration of Independence and re-state those arguments in modern English. Then have them write a rebuttal to the arguments, or extend the arguments and state why they agree or disagree with either the premises or the conclusion.

For the Constitution, you could have students memorize the Preamble. Again, encourage them to translate the Preamble into modern English. Put them in groups and let them argue about the best translation. Make sure and insist they look up all the words and write out definitions for what the words meant when they were written. You could use the opportunity to explore how language & usage changes over time.

For the Bill of Rights, I guess we all know that a lot of the debate over the 2nd Amendment is really about grammatical construction, and more of it is about word meanings. Seems there might be a lesson there, somewhere ...

Oh, one of my high school English teachers made us memorize the last paragraph of Patrick Henry's most famous speech, and then recite it in front of the class. I don't remember what English-y point she was trying to make, but I can still recite that beautiful, crashing conclusion.

pax

[geekWithA.45]

Diagramming the sentences in the Bill of Rights? :what: :what: :what:

Subversive!

Homeland Security is going to be having a LENGTHY chat with you..... :neener:


Oh, and for those of you who mentioned the schoolboards, I've also made it a point to obtain the composition of the schoolboards for the districts I've canvased.

In every case, the Dems outnumber the Reps at least 2:1, and sometimes 3:1

[chink]

I went to Public School I don't recall ever having the full text of the Declaration Of Independence, the Constitution, or the Bill Of Rights in the textbook. In fact I don't remember ever having looked through the entire Declaration of independence in school. But I was tested on the Articles of the Constitution and all its Amendments so I had to have had to read it at some point.

[Stickjockey]

If anyone has a poster sized copy of any of the three major documents, or knows where I can get them, I would like to post them on the walls of my next classroom (my HS teachers change classrooms every four months due to overcrowding)

May I direct you to:

http://www.libertybellmuseum.com/MuseumShop/18thcentury.htm

Item #2200 is the Constitution, BoR, and Declaration of Independence in a single package. $9.99 +S&H.

Dionysusigma: What's your beef with doctors?

[longeyes]

from wikipedia:

Madrassa

The word madrasah in Arabic as well as in other Islamic languages such as kurdish,Urdu, Persian, Turkish, Indonesian, etc. means a "school." The word is often mistransliterated in the media as madrasa, madrash, or madressa. The Arabic word (?????) is used in all the contexts of the word school used in English language for private , public and parochial schools, as well as for any primary or secondary school whether Muslim or non-Muslim or secular. Unlike the understanding of the word school in British English, the word madrasah is referred to as a university in American English. The appropriate word for the university, however, is al-Jami'ah.

[antarti]

With all due respect to the various teachers represented here:

I trained to be one, Early American Lit grad, English Lit undergrad. My wife is a recovering primary education teacher and holds a degree in Classics and Antiquities. I can't teach because our finances are addressed much better in my other field of expertise. It allows the wife not to have to subject herself to working for the school system anymore, and focus on our kids.

I maintain the Public (Government) Schools have succeeded only too well, even beyond the wildest dreams of those villains who created them and maintain them.

What begins well, ends well. The corollary is also true, and that's why public education in this country "is what it is". It was designed as an attempt to program (or rather to deprogram the Catholics and others) the youth, and it succeeds. I even have a sick sort of grudging admiration for how effective they are, and the mounting "snowball effect" it is having on society.

The way to save your kids is to keep them the heck out of there. 2nd or even 3rd job notwithstanding, that's what I intend to do towards parochial school. If that becomes unaffordable, then home-schooling will do.

There are individual teachers who are doing all they can to provide a decent, quality education, so be it. Present THR company excluded, then, from my rant.

But the cumulative effect is one of utter failure (for the country) and complete victory (for those who would abuse us all).

Public school = child abuse. Plain and simple.

Nobody will convince me otherwise.

[vol_907]

I was waiting to see if anyone would bring that up.

Volunteer in your child's classroom and not just to bake cupcakes. Realize that as time goes on teachers actually have less control over the content of what is being taught in the classroom.

Excellent, migoi! A friend of mine who taught at a private school in Pennsylvania was telling me how she would bring in all sorts of volunteers to help her in areas she was lacking in, as far as personal resources went. She got help in everything from history to band.

At the private school I teach at, I try to keep an ear open for what the teachers are teaching, and see if I can help supplement their material with what I know. I'm known primarily as a foreign language teacher, but there's a lot more that goes with that than getting students to speak funny words. A lot of knowledge of history and culture goes with it as well. And every teacher I've known is very grateful for whatever contributions you can volunteer for their classes.

In short, you've got something to offer a class, whether you are a teacher or not. Lend out what you can! Chances are it will be better than the state-approved spam the school board generally strait-jackets teachers with.

jth

[Molon Labe]

The era that they were discussing was the Revolution and Constitution.[pet peeve]
We never had a "revolutionary war." And the freedom fighters were not "revolutionaries."

We had a War of Independence.
[/pet peeve]

[James T Thomas]

Take a visit to www.instituteontheconstitution.com and get some futher education and respect for the founding fathers of our nation.