Real world handgun over-penetration horror stories?

[PaladinX13]

I totally understand this in regards to rifles. I know of accounts, especially in regards to hunting, where the round passed through the target and on to tragedy. But I haven't heard much about handguns over penetrating their intended target and harming innocents beyond. We talk about how poor handguns are at stopping (compared to their long arm counter-parts) for example (from Wiki):

Despite this, being shot with a handgun is fatal only about 5% of the time, and result in serious medical damage approximately 15% of the time. It has even been estimated that survival rates after being shot in the heart are roughly 50%.

...but somehow handguns are also at risk of over-penetration?

The only story I can recall is of a woman getting hit in the eye after over-penetration. Missed/stray shots, of course, should be cause for alarm but is handgun over-penetration a serious real-world risk? What stories do you know of that highlight the risk of handgun over-penetration?

[Standing Wolf]

...is handgun over-penetration a serious real-world risk?

I've always believed it's a myth.

[Dr.Rob]

NYPD has paid out several lawsuits on that 'myth' almost all instances have been with 9mm.

[Graystar]

NYPD has paid out several lawsuits on that 'myth' almost all instances have been with 9mm.I think that's because they tend to hit everything EXCEPT what they're shooting at.

[BluesBear]

...is handgun over-penetration a serious real-world risk? YES!

As are tornados, earthquakes, mountain lion attacks, lightning strikes and winning the lottery.

Not to trivialize it but the danger IS there. But, personally, it is one of the least of my worries.
If you are the one doing the shooting concentrate on hitting your target.
It's the misses you need to worry about.
If you are not the one doing the shooting, find some hard cover. So someone elses misses won't find you.

[cookekdjr]

Over-penetration does occur. There are two reliable ways to prevent it:

1. Use a frangible or similar type load. These are bullets designed to break apart when they contact human flesh.
The downside: they are horribly ineffective. They simply don't penetrate well enough to ensure you'll kill the person you are trying to kill.
If the person you shoot with these bullets is armed with real bullets, there's a good chance they will kill you.

2. Use a low-powered gun. Say, for example, a .32 S&W snub-nosed revolver. Use low velocity rounds (around 680 fps) and light weight bullets.
Downside: See number #1 above.

By the way, don't think a hollow point bullet will prevent over-penetration. Even today's modern hp's do not reliably expand at handgun velocities in human tissue.

The solution? There is none. Gunfights are dangerous, and perps who start them set events in motion that often cause innocent people to die, both from hostile and "friendly" fire.
A gun is designed to kill. It is what it is.
-David

[cookekdjr]

Not to trivialize it but the danger IS there. But, personally, it is one of the least of my worries.
If you are the one doing the shooting concentrate on hitting your target.
It's the misses you need to worry about.
If you are not the one doing the shooting, find some hard cover. So someone elses misses won't find you.
Well said.
-David

[Vern Humphrey]

Given several well-publicized incidents in which NYPD officers fired literally dozens of rounds with only a few hits, I'd say if you wanted to make New York suit-proof in this regard, you'd have to go to rubber-band guns.

I'd be much more worried about where the misses went than about over-penetration.

[Dr.Rob]

Pulled from OUR archives:

NY Times (March, 1997) on several occasions:

"In New York City during the last two years, seven of the bystanders shot by the police were struck by bullets that passed through other people.

The report released Thursday covers shootings from 1995 and 1996. Of the six innocent bystanders struck by hollow-point bullets fired by police officers in the Transit Bureau, one was hit by a bullet that ricocheted and another by a bullet that passed through an object. Of 15 bystanders shot by conventional, full-metal-jacket bullets, five were hit by bullets that had passed through another person and two by bullets that had gone through an object.

Forty-four police officers accidentally shot themselves or were accidentally shot by other officers over the same two years, according to the report. Of the 40 officers shot by full-metal-jacket bullets, two were hit by ricochets, 17 were hit by bullets that passed through other people and two were struck by bullets that passed through objects. Of the four police officers shot by hollow-points, one was hit by a bullet that passed through another person.

Fifty-six suspects were shot and killed by police officers over the last two years. Forty-one of them were killed by full-metal-jacket bullets, 14 of which passed through other people first and one of which first passed through an object. Fifteen others were killed by hollow-point bullets, four of which passed through other people first."

NYPD was certainly concerned by it.

This thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=23762&highlight=NYPD

[PaladinX13]

From the article, it doesn't speak to the status of the bystanders or the nature of the pass-through. That is to say, in the cases where the bystanders were hit- certainly a bad thing- but how badly were they hit?

In the cases where the suspects were killed after rounds passed through someone else... we don't know if that means an arm, coat, superficial flesh wound, or what... they're not recorded as Center of Mass through and through and beyond. We are also not privy to the volume of fire for each shooting, considering NYPD tends to shoot high volumes and no-doubt the risk of over-penetration increases with every shot... compared to a civilian encounter with, likely, less exchange of fire.

This is the issue then: Accepting that over penetration happens, how does this affect your round selection? You must balance the cost and likelihood of a tragic over-penetration against the cost and likelihood of under-penetration and make your decision.

From the article it doesn't seem like bullet shape makes a huge difference (1/4 & 4/15 HPs against 17/40 & 14/41 FMJ respectively) in preventing over penetration, but again, we don't know the nature of the respective shoots.

[PaladinX13]

Oh yeah, and thanks Dr. Rob for posting the link to that thread, it addresses this same topic and is interesting to read.

[Dr.Rob]

The point was... regardless of 'specifics' in each case by case shooting that NYPD did address overpenetration... in very real terms.

for the life of me when I first came across this I was shocked to see NYPD was still issuing 9mm FMJ as duty ammo.

Glad the info provided some insight.

[Vern Humphrey]

for the life of me when I first came across this I was shocked to see NYPD was still issuing 9mm FMJ as duty ammo.


Political Correctness has nothing to do with truth or reality. When the NYPD first attempted to adopt hollow points, they met a storm of criticism -- including claims (in print) that hollow point ammunition was less accurate because of its "greater recoil."

I suspect the statistics you presented were compiled to refute nonsense like that.

[Bad Words]

"In New York City during the last two years, seven of the bystanders shot by the police were struck by bullets that passed through other people.

Of the six innocent bystanders struck by hollow-point bullets fired by police officers in the Transit Bureau, one was hit by a bullet that ricocheted and another by a bullet that passed through an object. Of 15 bystanders shot by conventional, full-metal-jacket bullets, five were hit by bullets that had passed through another person and two by bullets that had gone through an object.
That's 5, not 7...

edit - Just realized that just accounts for the FMJ shots...

Fifty-six suspects were shot and killed by police officers over the last two years. Forty-one of them were killed by full-metal-jacket bullets, 14 of which passed through other people first and one of which first passed through an object. Fifteen others were killed by hollow-point bullets, four of which passed through other people first."
This statistic doesn't make sense... of the 56 suspects that police killed, 18 of them were killed by a bullet that passed through another person first? That number seems ridiculously high. There's no way I'm buying any of this...

[Vern Humphrey]

This statistic doesn't make sense... of the 56 suspects that police killed, 18 of them were killed by a bullet that passed through another person first? That number seems ridiculously high. There's no way I'm buying any of this...

Who's in charge of the NYPD, Fearless Fosdick? :confused:

[PaladinX13]

The point was... regardless of 'specifics' in each case by case shooting that NYPD did address overpenetration... in very real terms.

I'm not sure I agree since the specifics matter very much. If every case of pass-through is merely a grazing hit or the result of a full magazine dump, then the culpirt is inaccuracy and/or lack of fire discipline (and/or Rule 4 violation). We should realize that the article talks ONLY about pass-through shots not about over-penetration. Over-penetration implies a COM shot that continues through at dangerous speeds. But if I shoot someone in the hand and kill someone beyond, over-penetration is not a fault, it is my inaccuracy.

for the life of me when I first came across this I was shocked to see NYPD was still issuing 9mm FMJ as duty ammo.

But from the article, HP does not seem to perform much better... it's pass-through ratios seem to be very similar which suggest, to me, that all of the pass-through shots occured more because of inaccuracy than COM over-penetration.

It seems like the NYPD bring out all the worst case scenarios whether missed shots, over-penetration, or shot cpacity/reload is concerned. Do we have any non-NY examples or- even better- civilian horror stories?

[Bad Words]

Okay, Dr. Rob, the New York Times web site lets you search their archives from March of 1997 and that story isn't there. Also get 0 results with Google. The post you linked to credited the original post to BrokenArrow - I searched his posts and also for the story, and it only exists in this thread and the one you linked to. My guess is it was made up on the spot in the thread you cited. The numbers are certainly preposterous.

Search terms I used:
NY Times: police accidentally
Google: "in new york city during the last two years"
THR: police accidentally bystanders york transit

edit - I also just realized that the innocent bystander statistic makes no sense either... It claims 56 suspects were killed, and 7 innocent bystanders were shot by bullets that passed first through other people. Surely the vast majority of innocent bystanders would not be shot in this manner. If you were to follow the logic of this post, it would suggest that police shoot innocent bystanders far more than they kill suspects.

[Dr.Rob]

I looked too... you'll note the story originates in a 95-96 era...

Sorry if it's in any way misleading.

[BluesBear]

I know Broken Arrow only from reading his posts on several different forums.
I have seen him post this information several times but I have not seen any references from him that the information came from the New York Times.

For some reason I was under the impression that it came from NYPD departmental records.

If you feel the information is somehow tainted or otherwise erronious then perhaps a private message to him might clear up the confusion?

[Borachon]

Found a link. It's to a story about why Detroit should NOT be allowed to have those evil bad icky hollow point ammunition that are outlawed by the Geneva Convention. (Chocolate and the coo-coo clock are the major Swiss contributions to the world.)


The article is largely bogus. Except it does reference similar statistics to over penetration in the story mentioned above.

http://www.detnews.com/2000/metro/0008/02/d01-99468.htm

New York transit police were issued hollow-point ammunition in 1990. Since then, only one person has been hit by a hollow-point bullet passing through the body of the intended victim. That compares with 17 bystanders who were hit during that time by full-metal jacket bullets that passed through the bodies of people shot by police.

[BluesBear]

Hollow-point bullets expand on impact, which can seriously damage internal organs. Because of the damage the bullets can inflict, they remain outlawed under the Geneva Convention's rules of war.
The Geneva Convention deals with the treatment of Prisoners Of War.
The Hague Accords deal with munitions.

But Detroit Councilwoman Sheila Cockrel said she strongly opposes hollow-point bullets because, if police do mistakenly shoot someone, it's likely to result in death.
"We just settled a case where the police went into a man's house and arrested him by mistake," Cockrel said. "He wasn't shot -- but what if he had been? The chances of him dying from a hollow-point bullet would be much greater."
While Cockrel said she appreciates the dangers that Detroit police face every day, "they do make mistakes sometimes. And, then, if you issue hollow-point bullets, you're likely to have another grieving mother and father at a funeral." So this bimbo would rather see the police officers mother grieving?
Perhaps the morons who elected this idiot deserve her.

The Detroit Police Officers Association has recommended two types of hollow-point bullets for approval:The Winchester partial gold round.. I be wanting me some o' them partial gold ones. To go with my partial gold teef.

"Hollow-point bullets are effective at close to moderate range," Miles said. "However, if a incident occurs where you are forced to use your weapon at a distance, hollow-points are not as effective as full metal jackets." Is he related to that councel woman or is stupidity contageous?

But police officers only fire, only use deadly force, in order to kill. We don't fire our weapons to wound." Did

he

say

that

out

loud?

[Onmilo]

My story involves a local home owner who accosted two teenage burglers going through the possessions stored in his home and castle.
Home owner was armed with a .40 S&W handgun, model and ammunition used is unknown to me.
Perp #1 charged the homeowner with, of all things, a fireplace poker.
Homeowner shot the would be badass one time, center mass.
Bullet went clean through the skinny bad guy and hit bad guy #2 who was dumb enough to be standing directly behind bad guy #1.
Bad guy #1 died at the scene, bad guy #2 survived albeit with some long lasting, possibly lifelong, difficulties with breathing correctly.
Oh, bad guy #2 also gets to serve at least seven years in one of our fine Illinois prisons.
No charges were ever filed against the homeowner and no lawsuits were ever brought against him.
Actually, I can't honestly call this a horror story.

[dxkj21]

Sorry the title made me go :what:

I have a bad mind :eek:

[sigstroker]

That sounds like a great story to me. Homeowner got his money's worth from just one cartridge.

Seeing as how FBI and cops, who's job is to train to shoot while being shot at, miss 75% to 80% of the time in gunfights, and all bullets penetrate air really well - I don't consider it one single bit.

[Kamicosmos]

Indiana Jones killed like 6 Nazis with ONE shot from a 9mm P-38!!!111one!!BBQ

Seriously, I am not concerned with over-penetration. Missed shots, yes. I'm not saying over-penetration can't/doesn't happen (I shot a deer with a .44 Mag, and the oak tree about 30 yards behind it!), I'm just saying there's lots of other things on the exterior ballistics list that are of more concern to me.

The Box o' Truth site is quite informative about the myths and hype around over-penetration concerns.

[VG]

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_Power) has this:

Overpenetration is exaggerated by those who advocate shallow-penetrating "rapid energy transfer" bullets. Tests have shown that human skin, on the entry side, resists penetration about as much as 2" (5 cm) of muscle, and skin on the exit side is the equivalent of 4 in (10 cm). A bullet would need to penetrate greater than 14 in (36 cm) of tissue simulant to have a chance to completely perforate an 8" (20 cm) thick torso.

Even if the bullet does completely penetrate a person, it would probably have very little velocity left by that point, and pose a reduced risk to those downrange. Missing altogether is a much greater threat.

And according to NYPD SOP-9 (Standard Operating Procedure #9) data, in the year 2000, only 9% of shots fired by officers engaged in gunfights actually hit perpetrators. In the same year, there were a total of 129 "shooting incidents" (including non-gunfights, such as officers firing at aggressive dogs, unarmed or fleeing perpetrators, etc.), 471 total shots fired by officers, 367 shots fired at perpetrators, and 58 total hits on perpetrators by police. So when non-gunfight shooting data is added, the rate at which police hit what they aim at in real life situations is still only 15.8%.

When you consider the staggering miss rate of police officers, it is very unlikely that a bullet will hit someone else after going through an attacker. Accidental shootings due to misses have occurred, but at a far lower rate than that at which officers miss their intended target.

[Black Snowman]

My views on the subject are found in these threads:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=127511
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=118910
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=118791
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=113626

Saves me a lot of typing. :)

[BluesBear]

Even if the bullet does completely penetrate a person, it would probably have very little velocity left by that point, Don't you just love it when people take a wild guess at something and then represent it as fact?

[ghost squire]

Any ammunition with more than 14 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin has the potential to overpenetrate and kill even on a full frontal shot.

Then again any ammunition period has the potential to kill on a miss, so does it really matter except to the lawyers of police departments?

I think the whole matter was blown out of proportion by gunwriters in the pocket of the fast light ammo crowd.

[Borachon]

If you are really worried about over penetration....crouch before you shoot.

That's right. Take a knee.

By being down on one knee, you'll be firing at an upward angle...however slight....toward your target. If your round blows straight through someone, it will still be travelling in an upward direction (theorectically) along the angled flight path from which you fired. Bystanders behind your target might hear the round pass over their heads, but otherwise suffer no damage.

It's not a bad idea to learn how to shoot while crouching...you present a smaller target yourself this way.

[BluesBear]

what was that old saying...



Oh yeah... What goes up, MUST come down.



Not to say that the drop to one kbnee concept doesn't have it's use. But I condiser it to opnly be feasable when there is a large number of innocent bystanders in close proximity to the target. In that case the chance of the bullet hitting a distant bystander is less than the chance of it hitting a nearby bystander.

But don't forget that a bullet fired in an upward arch will have a longer killing range than a bullet fired level.

[Onmilo]

Hypothetically the bullet will still be going uphill when and if it exits the target.,,,,

I don't know about all that but I did see a guy get shot center mass with a 5.56 and the bullet blew the top of his head off when it exited,,,,I guess it was going uphill when it exited, don't know where it landed, nobody went looking for it.

[Cosmoline]

I think that's because they tend to hit everything EXCEPT what they're shooting at.

Exactly. Those are not cases of true overpenetration but spraying and praying resulting in about 50 to 75% of the bullets missing the target. True overpenetration requires the bullet to pass through the target first, which in the case of a HP 9x19 or .45 ACP will sap most of its killing power.

full-metal-jacket bullets

There's the NYPD's problem right there. FMJ rounds are bad all around. They're poor killers and they maximize the chance of overpentration injury. On most handgun rounds, a HP will act like a brake as it opens. There's no need to use "frangible" rounds.

As with all things, it's a tradeoff. By using lower powered firearms to minimize risk of overpentration (which an amazing number of people apparently do), you increase the chance that 1) you'll be shot yourself by the bad guy and 2) you'll have to shoot him several times to bring him down. With, for example, a hunting rifle loaded with SP rounds, there is a greater chance of overpenetration than with a 9mm handgun. But there is also a FAR lower chance that you will miss the vital spot or that the fellow will continue to fight. It's hard to fight with your heart and lungs torn up and a huge hole in your back gushing blood. On balance, I favor using the most powerful firearm possible to end matters as quickly as possible. THIS is the best way to both end the imminent deadly peril and minimize the chance of overpenetration or stray rounds.

[Sinsaba]

... This is the issue then: Accepting that over penetration happens, how does this affect your round selection? You must balance the cost and likelihood of a tragic over-penetration against the cost and likelihood of under-penetration and make your decision. ...



emphasis is mine ...

when I weigh the cost of tragic over-penetration against the cost of tragic non-stopping ... I'll take the biggest round I can shoot well.

I'll play the odds a) odds of over penetrating, b) odds of hitting someone else, c) odds of fatal wound. When combine those odds with what will happen to you if you don't STOP the BG then... well... no contest!

[A2lockdown]

1st: from a medical standpoint the best way to kill someone is w/ an entry AND exit hole.
2nd: a bullet that exits after a COM hit will still have enough energy to kill someone else, as if it hits bone (ribs, sternum, spine) it is VERY unlikely it will exit intact. so the bullet will have only penetrated soft tissue, which does not slow it down below lethal velosity.
3rd: it totally depends on what body structures the bullet passes through. 22lr could kill someone behind the bad guy in the same day that 44 mag doesnt stop a perp. too many variables to calculate w/accuracy.
be careful. no misses, no problems.
oh yea, and to the origional ques, yep, heard a story of a 45fmj killing 2 people. neck in 1st, heart? in 2nd. both hostiles, cqb gun fight, range less than 10 yrds.

[JohnKSa]

It can happen. It does happen.

But premium modern self-defense ammo makes it far less likely to occur than in times past. And also casts a shadow on statistics accumulated from a PD using FMJ.

The best way to prevent overpenetration is to use premium self-defense ammo and hit your attacker center of mass. There's far more danger to bystanders from the rounds that miss than from the ones that hit.

More to the point, if you're legally shooting a person in a crowded situation, it's very likely that there's more danger to the bystanders FROM THE ATTACKER than from the rounds you fire.

[Shawn Dodson]

I define "overpenetration" as a solid torso hit that exits the body.

In most cases, "overpenetration" is the result of a peripheral hit, in which the penetration path of the bullet is just a few inches.

When someone cites a shooting incident as an example of "overpenetration" the knowledgable person will ask: What was the length of the wound track through the body? If there is no data to support the claim, then it is an anecdotal report.

[RecoilRob]

I've argued this point elsewhere and the most ardent 'Thou shalt not overpenetrate' advocates were LEO types who, I suspect, are driven more by their Dept. Lawyers than by actual fact.

So long as they continue to preach about the HORRORS OF OVERPENETRATION they leave themselves an 'out' in Court. "No, I didn't shoot Mrs. Innocent with one of my 8 missed shots. It MUST have been the ONE shot that I hit the BG with that Overpenetrated!"

I really wonder how you can tell who was actually hit with what when there is more than a single round fired? And, like many have mentioned, if the shot wasn't COM can you really fault any ammo for continuing it's travel beyond the target?

[JohnKSa]

they leave themselves an 'out' in Court. "No, I didn't shoot Mrs. Innocent with one of my 8 missed shots. It MUST have been the ONE shot that I hit the BG with that Overpenetrated!"That actually makes a lot of sense...