Bush: Military may have to help if bird flu breaks out


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rick_reno
October 4, 2005, 08:04 PM
cluck, cluck, cluck. I see some bird flu in our future.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/04/bush.avianflu/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush said Tuesday that the possibility of an avian flu pandemic is among the reasons he wants Congress to give him the power to use the nation's military in law enforcement roles in the United States.

"I'm concerned about what an avian flu outbreak could mean for the United States and the world," he told reporters during a Rose Garden news conference.

Such an deadly event would raise difficult questions, such as how a quarantine might be enforced, he said.

"One option is the use of a military that's able to plan and move," he said. "So that's why I put it on the table. I think it's an important debate for Congress to have."

People who catch the worst strain of avian flu can die of viral pneumonia and acute respiratory distress, according to mayoclinic.com.

The disease has killed tens of millions of birds in Asia.

Last week, the U.N.'s health agency, the World Health Organization, sought to ease fears that the disease could kill as many as 150 million people worldwide.

"We're not going to know how lethal the next pandemic is going to be until the pandemic begins," WHO influenza spokesman Dick Thompson said, according to The Associated Press.

The consequences of an outbreak in the United States need to be addressed before catastrophe strikes, Bush said.

The president said that he sees things differently than he did as governor of Texas. "I didn't want the president telling me how to be the commander in chief of the Texas Guard," he said. "But Congress needs to take a look at circumstances that may need to vest the capacity of the president to move beyond that debate. And one such catastrophe or one such challenge could be an avian flu outbreak."

Should avian flu mutate and gain the ability to spread easily from human to human, world leaders and scientists would need rapid access to accurate information to be able to stem its spread, he said.

"We need to know, on a real-time basis, the facts, so the world's scientific community could analyze the facts," he said.

Bush said he has spoken with Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, about work toward a vaccine, but that means of prevention remains a distant hope.

"I take this issue very seriously," Bush said. "I'm not predicting an outbreak, but just suggesting to you we ought to be thinking about it, and we are."

Absent an effective vaccine, public health officials likely would try to stem the disease's spread by isolating people who had been exposed to it. Such a move could require the military, he said.

"I think the president ought to have all options on the table," Bush said, then corrected himself, "all assets on the table -- to be able to deal with something this significant."

The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 bans the military from participating in police-type activity on U.S. soil.

Bush began discussing the possibility of changing the law last month, in the aftermath of the government's sluggish response to civil unrest following Hurricane Katrina.

"I want there to be a robust discussion about the best way for the federal government, in certain extreme circumstances, to be able to rally assets for the good of the people," he told reporters September 26.

Gene Healy, a senior editor at the conservative Cato Institute, said Bush would risk undermining "a fundamental principle of American law" by tinkering with the act, which does not hinder the military's ability to respond to a crisis.

"What it does is set a high bar for the use of federal troops in a policing role," he wrote in a commentary on the group's Web site. "That reflects America's traditional distrust of using standing armies to enforce order at home, a distrust that's well-justified."

Healy said soldiers are not trained as police officers, and putting them in a civilian law enforcement role "can result in serious collateral damage to American life and liberty."

Last month, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Bush "wants to make sure that we learn the lessons from Hurricane Katrina," including the use of the military in "a severe, catastrophic-type event."

"The Department of Defense would assume the responsibility for the situation, and come in with an overwhelming amount of resources and assets, to help stabilize the situation," McClellan said.

The World Health Organization has reported 116 cases of avian flu in humans, all of them in Asia. More than half of them have been fatal, it said.

On Thursday, the Senate added $4 billion to a Pentagon spending bill to head off the threat of an outbreak of avian flu among humans. The bulk of the money -- $3 billion -- would be used to stockpile Tamiflu, an antiviral drug that has proved effective against the H5N1 virus -- the strain blamed for six deaths in Indonesia last week.

U.S. health agencies have about 2 million doses of Tamiflu, enough to treat about 1 percent of the population. The money added by the Senate would build that stockpile to cover about 50 percent of the population.

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Chaz
October 4, 2005, 08:11 PM
As I posted in another thread; This is a scary statement. I am currently at a loss for words as I never expected to hear this from that man. This nanny staty bull dink is going WAY too far! :cuss:

NHBB
October 4, 2005, 08:30 PM
visions of that movie "outbreak" come to mind.. doesn't seem so far fetched.

spartacus2002
October 4, 2005, 08:41 PM
http://www.rachelleb.com/images/02_07_03_snow/banana_republic_6th_bleecke.jpg

Biker
October 4, 2005, 08:41 PM
We're being conditioned. They're buying us drinks now and they're getting ready to drop in the "date rape" pill. We're...fornicated.
Biker

longeyes
October 4, 2005, 08:53 PM
The important thing is we disarm people before they can get delirious and harm the children. :mad:

Lone_Gunman
October 4, 2005, 09:00 PM
Previous threads on the bird flu were locked by moderators, against my protest, because it was not felt to be related to the purpose of this board...

Looks like George Bush has done his part to make this a legitimate political topic. Hate to be an "I told you so", but I told you so.

longeyes
October 4, 2005, 09:03 PM
Avian flu: one more great achievement of globalism.

Skofnung
October 4, 2005, 09:09 PM
<sigh>
Is there any way back?

Biker
October 4, 2005, 09:18 PM
Nope. No reset button for our country, I'm afraid.
Biker

Refirignis
October 4, 2005, 10:15 PM
All of the news is just conditioning everyone to accept that it's coming. When it does, it will easily wipe out 100,000,000 in a short period of time, which is their goal, since They want some breathing room. The pandemic in the US will be used as an excuse to declare martial law nationwide and keep everyone from going anywhere (control).

Waitone
October 4, 2005, 10:58 PM
Let's just play for a minute. Assume we really do want to combat a flu outbreak. Let's assume the flu of choice is transmitted human to human through the air. Let us also assume it will kill you dead a high percentage of the time. Now let's take off the table any participation by the military in creating and enforcing quaranteen and exclusion zones.

What do you suggest?

Standing Wolf
October 4, 2005, 11:18 PM
Now let's take off the table any participation by the military in creating and enforcing quaranteen and exclusion zones.
What do you suggest?

I suggest it does no good to save a few lives if it costs us our country. I believe the vast majority of Americans would accept quarantines as a necessary bother. We'd grumble, but do what was needed.

Do you doubt me? When was the last time you saw open rebellion on April 15?

longeyes
October 4, 2005, 11:59 PM
If the avian flu arrives the only people safe will be those in low population-concentration areas or well-stocked bunkers.

Perhaps the flu will arrive about the time the U.S., Canada, and Mexico merge, thanks to the CFR.

Art Eatman
October 5, 2005, 01:00 AM
While I'm dubious that such a flu would hit the U.S. (knock on wood, of course), if it does, it won't matter what Bush does with the military.

If it hits big time, all you gotta do is think Anarchy and SHTF, for real. Even a relatively small outbreak will have people headed for Panic City.

Art

45acpSHOOTER
October 5, 2005, 01:18 AM
No reset button for our country, I'm afraid.


Yes, there is a reset button. Its called the 2nd Amendment.

c_yeager
October 5, 2005, 02:21 AM
Im a little curious what the role of the military is supposed to be in the event of an outbreak such as this. Are they supposed to hold your hand while your on your I.V.? Are they going to put up sand bags to keep the germs at bay?

If we have enough healthy people around to support rioters/looters, then we have enough healthy people around to shoot them. Besides, wouldnt the military be just as badly effected as everyone else? In the past it was the military itself that allowed such disease to cross borders in the first place (spanish flu for example).

rick_reno
October 5, 2005, 02:34 AM
I believe the role of the military will be quarantine management and movement of supplies. With 2M doses of flu vaccine on hand, the distribution of those will be interesting. I expect cirtical government functions would get them first, with law enforcement and medical personnel next.

Thin Black Line
October 5, 2005, 08:36 AM
Article:

On Thursday, the Senate added $4 billion to a Pentagon spending bill to head off the threat of an outbreak of avian flu among humans. The bulk of the money -- $3 billion -- would be used to stockpile Tamiflu, an antiviral drug that has proved effective against the H5N1 virus -- the strain blamed for six deaths in Indonesia last week.

U.S. health agencies have about 2 million doses of Tamiflu, enough to treat about 1 percent of the population. The money added by the Senate would build that stockpile to cover about 50 percent of the population.
__________________

So, the US now only has a population of 120000000?

rick_reno
October 5, 2005, 09:38 AM
On Thursday, the Senate added $4 billion to a Pentagon spending bill to head off the threat of an outbreak of avian flu among humans. The bulk of the money -- $3 billion -- would be used to stockpile Tamiflu, an antiviral drug that has proved effective against the H5N1 virus -- the strain blamed for six deaths in Indonesia last week. ZURICH (AFX) - Roche Holding AG confirmed that huge demand for Tamiflu -- the only drug deemed efficient against Asian bird flu -- is causing a production bottleneck, with new customers likely to face waiting time of up to two years.

Possibly too little - too late. Surprising too, given a Republican medical Dr. leads the Senate. One might think he'd have known better. I think we're behind others on the order list.

ZURICH (AFX) - Roche Holding AG confirmed that huge demand for Tamiflu -- the only drug deemed efficient against Asian bird flu -- is causing a production bottleneck, with new customers likely to face waiting time of up to two years.

Major orders have also been placed by the governments of the UK, France, Switzerland, Finland and Germany.

brufener
October 5, 2005, 09:48 AM
While I'm dubious that such a flu would hit the U.S. (knock on wood, of course)

Of course all of us hope that avian flu will not hit the US, however, it has in the past. In 2002 avian flu hit Virginia (and other Eastern states), and over 4.7 million chickens were destroyed. Luckily, only birds were susceptible to the strain that hit in 2002. It was not communicable to humans. Please note, it was the same virus (avian flu) we are talking about today, just a different strain. Please see this link for the complete story: Avian Flu 2002 (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/12/national0217EST0428.DTL&type=health)

Public health officials are extremely worried about avian flu. While Bush's idea of using the military to enforce a quarantine is scary, most states already have such laws on the books. In Virginia for example, if public health officials declare an emergency quarantine, people can be quarantined for the duration of time that the disease is communicable. They have to give you a hearing within 48 hours if you request it. See Va Stat. 32.1-48.08 to -48.010.

CletusFudd
October 5, 2005, 09:57 AM
"Let's just play for a minute. Assume we really do want to combat a flu outbreak. Let's assume the flu of choice is transmitted human to human through the air. Let us also assume it will kill you dead a high percentage of the time. Now let's take off the table any participation by the military in creating and enforcing quaranteen and exclusion zones.

What do you suggest?"

And just how are they going to quarantine the birds? They have no plan at all for this eventuality and that is how the disease seems to be spread to humans. Bush (and his handlers) have been pushing for an end to Posse Comitatus for a while. The latest disaster in NO has played right into their hands. The object is control not help.

LS
October 5, 2005, 10:04 AM
All I have to say is that I am really sorry that I have voted for this guy.

RaggedClaws
October 5, 2005, 10:09 AM
So let me get this straight:


The World Health Organization has reported 116 cases of avian flu in humans, all of them in Asia. More than half of them have been fatal, it said.

This is reason to abolish the Posse Comitatus Act and allow the federal government to use its military to police inside the US? 60 people die in Asia? What level of medical care are we talking about in the areas "hit" by this flu? How many years has it taken to kill 60 people? How much you wanna bet the people that died were old, sickly, malnourished, or very young children?

They are creating fear and manufacturing panic in order to sieze more power. This is not a "deadly pandemic", give me a break! A deadly pandemic would be if 6 million people in Asia died, but 60? C'mon. :rolleyes:

Camp David
October 5, 2005, 10:12 AM
...it won't matter what Bush does with the military.

You're probably right... Mayors and Governors are more skilled at handling national tragedies and react quicker than our military! :D

Paco
October 5, 2005, 10:53 AM
Ragged claws nailed it.

rick_reno
October 5, 2005, 11:33 AM
At least common sense seems to prevail in some corners of our government.

I'm worried about Bush - is the concern over a crappy legacy causing him to lose it? In one week we've gotten him suggesting Harriet Miers as the best person for the court - let's face it, there isn't anyone who can walk and chew gum that believes she is the "best" - and this absurd idea to use the military in a law enforcement role. What's happening here? Remember, this President in a speech on Dec 13, 1999 said

"I will be guided by President Jefferson's sense of purpose, to stand for principle, to be reasonable in manner, and above all, to do great good for the cause of freedom and harmony."

He's not only drifting way off base of this statement, he's speeding away from it.



http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/05/bush.reax/index.html


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A call by President George W. Bush for Congress to give him the power to use the military in law enforcement roles in the event of a bird flu pandemic has been criticized as akin to introducing martial law.

Bush said aggressive action would be needed to prevent a potentially disastrous U.S. outbreak of the disease that is sweeping through Asian poultry and which experts fear could mutate to pass between humans.

Such a deadly event would raise difficult questions, such as how a quarantine might be enforced, the president said.

"I'm concerned about what an avian flu outbreak could mean for the United States and the world," he told reporters during a Rose Garden news conference on Tuesday.

"One option is the use of a military that's able to plan and move," he said. "So that's why I put it on the table. I think it's an important debate for Congress to have."

The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 bans the military from participating in police-type activity on U.S. soil.

But Dr. Irwin Redlener, associate dean of Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health and director of its National Center for Disaster Preparedness, told The Associated Press the president's suggestion was dangerous.

Giving the military a law enforcement role would be an "extraordinarily Draconian measure" that would be unnecessary if the nation had built the capability for rapid vaccine production, ensured a large supply of anti-virals like Tamiflu and not allowed the degradation of the public health system.

"The translation of this is martial law in the United States," Redlener said.

And Gene Healy, a senior editor at the conservative Cato Institute, said Bush would risk undermining "a fundamental principle of American law" by tinkering with the act, which does not hinder the military's ability to respond to a crisis.

"What it does is set a high bar for the use of federal troops in a policing role," he wrote in a commentary on the group's Web site. "That reflects America's traditional distrust of using standing armies to enforce order at home, a distrust that's well-justified."

Healy said soldiers are not trained as police officers, and putting them in a civilian law enforcement role "can result in serious collateral damage to American life and liberty."

People who catch the worst strain of avian flu can die of viral pneumonia and acute respiratory distress, according to mayoclinic.com.

The disease has killed tens of millions of birds in Asia.

Last week, the U.N.'s health agency, the World Health Organization, sought to ease fears that the disease could kill as many as 150 million people worldwide.

"We're not going to know how lethal the next pandemic is going to be until the pandemic begins," WHO influenza spokesman Dick Thompson said, according to The Associated Press.

The consequences of an outbreak in the United States need to be addressed before catastrophe strikes, Bush said.

The president said he saw things differently than he did as governor of Texas. "I didn't want the president telling me how to be the commander in chief of the Texas Guard," he said.

"But Congress needs to take a look at circumstances that may need to vest the capacity of the president to move beyond that debate. And one such catastrophe or one such challenge could be an avian flu outbreak."

Should avian flu mutate and gain the ability to spread easily from human to human, world leaders and scientists would need rapid access to accurate information to be able to stem its spread, he said.

"We need to know, on a real-time basis, the facts, so the world's scientific community could analyze the facts," he said.

Bush said he had spoken to Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, about work towards a vaccine, but that means of prevention remained a distant hope.

"I take this issue very seriously," Bush said. "I'm not predicting an outbreak, but just suggesting to you we ought to be thinking about it, and we are."

Absent an effective vaccine, public health officials likely would try to stem the disease's spread by isolating people who had been exposed to it. Such a move could require the military, he said.

"I think the president ought to have all options on the table," Bush said, then corrected himself, "all assets on the table -- to be able to deal with something this significant."

Katrina lessons
Bush began discussing the possibility of changing the law banning the military from participating in police-type activity last month, in the aftermath of the government's sluggish response to civil unrest following Hurricane Katrina.

"I want there to be a robust discussion about the best way for the federal government, in certain extreme circumstances, to be able to rally assets for the good of the people," he told reporters September 26.

Last month, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Bush "wants to make sure that we learn the lessons from Hurricane Katrina," including the use of the military in "a severe, catastrophic-type event."

"The Department of Defense would assume the responsibility for the situation, and come in with an overwhelming amount of resources and assets, to help stabilize the situation," McClellan said.

The World Health Organization has reported 116 cases of avian flu in humans, all of them in Asia. More than half of them have been fatal, it said.

On Thursday, the Senate added $4 billion to a Pentagon spending bill to head off the threat of an outbreak of avian flu among humans. The bulk of the money -- $3 billion -- would be used to stockpile Tamiflu, an antiviral drug that has proved effective against the H5N1 virus -- the strain blamed for six deaths in Indonesia last week.

U.S. health agencies have about 2 million doses of Tamiflu, enough to treat about 1 percent of the population. The money added by the Senate would build that stockpile to cover about 50 percent of the population.

ny32182
October 5, 2005, 11:52 AM
Just another power grab from our fearless leader.

I'm done voting for anyone with an R or D next to their name. Never again.

Michigander
October 5, 2005, 12:05 PM
"We need to know, on a real-time basis, the facts, so the world's scientific community could analyze the facts," he said. (emphasis added)

Ha Ha Ha!!! Too funny!

This is the same "world scientific community" that he thumbs his nose at when it comes to global warming!!!

That's rich!

odysseus
October 5, 2005, 01:55 PM
You know, I think a lot of people who aren't thinking about this, easily will look at a thread like this as tin-hatted. I to some degree would too. In fact, we can probably all recall some cogidy old fella talking about how the UN was putting stickers on the backs of street signs in the US to denote waypoints and resources.

Anyway there is a lot of paranoia out there, always has been. However since 911 and Katrina, we keep hearing from the Fed how the bureaucracy of fed government needs more centralization and power. This directly goes against the Federalist ideal or a republic that our Constitution was written by, and one that has worked for over 200 years. The Fed has not solved our issues with large disasters, it is always the people who really get the work done - when I say people, I mean local and neighboring states that come in and do the real long time work.

How does giving the Fed more power over states and localities work better? Did putting FEMA under homeland security make them work better and faster? Why is it that as of late it seems anything that is out there is an immediate cause to lower State power in order for a large Fed power?

TallPine
October 5, 2005, 04:04 PM
War on Drugs

War on Terror

War on Bird Flu

:rolleyes:

seeker_two
October 5, 2005, 04:07 PM
The military's role in Avian Flu prevention....

http://www.animationusa.com/picts/hbpict/pigeon.gif

Joejojoba111
October 5, 2005, 06:40 PM
Remember when that guy, Alex somthing, was quoted on this forum in a few threads? It made an uproar. One of the most contentious issues was that he quoted a General who stated that if another terrorist attack happened, the country would come under martial law.

People didn't believe it, thought it was fake, out of context, a hoax, anything.

Believe it.

What Bush just did is called a 'trial balloon'. You float it out there and see if it takes any flak. If it isn't shot down terribly, then you know it's safe. This is often why you hear about 'leaks' of this or that. They're trial balloons, guaging public reaction.

It's coming, it's freaking coming. Days, months, years, I dunno, but the police state is honestly coming. Forget about burying your guns, get 'vacation plans' ready and choose a 'vacation destination'.

Biker
October 5, 2005, 07:31 PM
Oh, it's coming alright. Not to sound too pessimistic, but although some will fight back, for the most part, we're a nation of armed sheep. We still want to...*believe*.
Biker

dpesec
October 5, 2005, 07:44 PM
Don't want to sound negative, I've been accused of being eyore from Whinney the Pooh, but I think we're becoming like the frog in the pot. The water is being heated and we just don't notice it.
Think of taking one Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin or the Adams boys and fast forward to today what do you think they'd say?

Dave R
October 5, 2005, 07:49 PM
I'm very upset. Bush has never heard of possee comitatus? Or the Constitution?

Both my Senator and my Rep. are getting letters on this, urging them to warn Bush that disabling possee comitatus would be a very bad move for the country.

Lobotomy Boy
October 5, 2005, 07:59 PM
Our governor, Tim Pawlenty, who is generally pretty reasonable, supports Bush in his effort to overturn Posse Comitatus. I plan on contacting his office tomorrow and letting him know this stance is unacceptable.

EasternShore
October 5, 2005, 08:10 PM
Freudian Slip?

"I think the president ought to have all options on the table," Bush said, then corrected himself, "all assets on the table -- to be able to deal with something this significant."

:what:

ny32182
October 5, 2005, 08:46 PM
I guess he was talking about the VP? heh...

Art Eatman
October 5, 2005, 10:50 PM
Let's assume for the moment that this flu does indeed hit into this country, and that it is the Nasty Stuff.

One defense available in order to buy some time is the quarantine. You don't want people who are possibly infected to leave their area and come to yours and spread the disease.

So: What's more important to you and to your community? Allowing freedom of travel by a possibly-diseased person, and you die? Or, quarantine--no travel from an area--and maybe you and your kids--and community--live?

There won't be one elected official against the idea of quarantine, once it occurs to him that he, too, could die. Few among the citizenry will be against it, either; they'll be hostile against almost every outsider. My advice is, Don't Sneeze!

So: Who's gonna enforce this quarantine? Given today's society, do you think there won't be a large number who'll ignore any Order of Quarantine and try to bail out for Somewhere Else? Heck, start with Crips and Bloods and MS-13.

The only way I see to enforce such a quarantine is with people who are more readily willing and able to use force to stop would-be escapees, up to the point of shooting large numbers. I don't see any way out except using the military.

That doesn't mean I like it, or that I expect anybody else to love and cherish the idea. It just seems to me that harsh reality can be painful to all concerned--you, me, political leaders and the enforcers.

Think of a nation, a society, as a living organism. When it's a case of survival of the whole, there is no such thing as a nationaal conscience until later. Way later.

That's what it looks like to me, anyhow...

Art

LAR-15
October 5, 2005, 10:54 PM
I thought governors could use the national guard to enforce quarentines?

:confused:

Derek Zeanah
October 5, 2005, 11:18 PM
Art:

If that's the way it plays out, all it takes is a request from the local/state officials involved, just like Katrina.

No need to go the route Bush wants to take.

one45auto
October 5, 2005, 11:25 PM
Forget your piddly little bird flus, if something like Ebola ever mutated into an airborne contagion, we'd be completely fornicated - dead in three to five days with no treatment or cure known to man. :uhoh:

odysseus
October 6, 2005, 12:02 AM
Art - like Derek said, why does this have to be Fed?

Most likely an outbreak will be localized in an area at first. I also believe there must be a localized quarantine when combating an highly contagious virus. You are right, not doing so would be a grave mistake to everyone.

However this scenario has been out there for many decades and plans have been drafted. Why does a serious balance of power, possee comitatus, need to be changed? What is it that the states can do that the Fed can do better? The Fed is supposed to be players in supporting the state, as a republic would, to aid a member who needs financial and staff support.

It's where the control is.

DelayedReaction
October 6, 2005, 12:16 AM
The idea that fear has debilitated this country to the point where something like the suspension of posse comitus is openly discussed as a solution to a problem is incredible to me.

dmallind
October 6, 2005, 12:19 AM
So what superstitious illiterate peasants could do 350 yrs ago (with no guns even :-) ) would be unthinkable today and here?

Eyam (http://www.eun.org/eun.org2/eun/en/EUN_Biology/content.cfm?lang=en&ov=25640)

Headless Thompson Gunner
October 6, 2005, 12:27 AM
Wouldn't it make more sense to ramp up production of the vaccine? Soldiers to enforce quarantine might make sense in dire circumstances, but it's mostly the wrong solution to the problem. You don't fight an epidemic with bullets and bombs.

There's gotta be more to the story that we don't know about. Look to your tinfoil comspiracies if you'd like. I'll wait I hear something a little more plausible, myself.

Also, remember that most of politics is noise. Wait and see whether Bush puts any serious effort into making this law.

MICHAEL T
October 6, 2005, 12:34 AM
I starting to wonder who really was behind 911. Ever since that day we have been on a fast track giving away our freedoms and excepting a bigger and ever more powerfull Govt.
Now people do we want to give the military a little more power here at home. We know the Police will body slam old ladies and take weapons. But the Army/NG said nope can't do.
Well now lets get rid of the pesky old law. We can blame it on the coming super flu. His daddy couldn't do it but son sure is selling us down the river towards the One World Govt. Whats next re education camps or is he going to skip that and go right to the showers. Bush defender of America :barf:
I was dumb and voted for him both times Like anothewr poster last time I vote for a name with a R or D next to it.

Kim
October 6, 2005, 01:43 AM
I think everyone is getting way tin-foiled hatted on this thread. If we get a pandemic of a disease that is airborn there will be quarentines and you will be glad. To do otherwise would be stupid. If the military needs to help so be it. Go back and talk to your older parents or grandparents. Go check out the graveyards of all the dead children at an early age when we had no vaccine aganist what we now do not worry about. They did not have effective TB medications when I was in grade school and this was in the 1960's. If you had TB you were by LAW placed in a TB Sanatorium for months. The polio vaccine came out when I was a child. My mother had a sister die of polio at age 13. She told me when there was a case of polio reported in a town NOBODY would go there. She lived in the dread that we would get polio and was overjoyed when a vaccine was developed. This bird flu IF it mutates could be devastating. Think of just burying the bodies here in the US. Talk to your elders.

Thin Black Line
October 6, 2005, 01:56 AM
Delayed wrote:
"The idea that fear has debilitated this country to the point where something like the suspension of posse comitus is openly discussed as a solution to a problem is incredible to me."
-------------

Give that man a cigar!

Headless wrote:
"Wouldn't it make more sense to ramp up production of the vaccine?"
-------------

You can't when we don't have a final form of the virus yet.


So are all the people here who advocate travel restrictions for an epidemic
going to follow that for themselves or are they going to be the first to BUG
OUT when things looks bad as is often discussed here? :confused: :scrutiny:

PATH
October 6, 2005, 02:50 AM
H5N1 is the official designation of the present Avian Flu Virus. The present mortality rate in humans infected is app. 50%.

H5N1 is mutating as we speak. Will it evolve into an aerobic spreader with a human vector? Hard to say! National Geographic has an excellent article on the subject this month.

Vaccine production cannot start until we have a sample of what will kill us. It will take a few months to develop, manufacture, and distribute any vaccine. (Thank your friendly neighborhood trial lawyers. Due to suits, US capapbility to perform the aforementioned, is very limited.

My advice: 1) Get the 8 day course of Tamiflu for use if you are infected.

2) Get a course of powerful anyibiotics to deal with secondary
bacterial infection.

3) Lay in a goodly supply of rubber gloves and masks.

4) Stock up on powdered goods such as milk and make your own
bread. Stock up on all other food items.

5) Lay in a hefty supply of ammo because it will get ugly before
things get better.

Remember ladies and gents if not this time then maybe next time. :uhoh:

Michigander
October 6, 2005, 06:51 AM
If you had TB you were by LAW placed in a TB Sanatorium for months. The polio vaccine came out when I was a child. My mother had a sister die of polio at age 13. She told me when there was a case of polio reported in a town NOBODY would go there.

And how was the military used to fight TB (or any other pandemic) previously?

artherd
October 6, 2005, 07:04 AM
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush said Tuesday that the possibility of an avian flu pandemic is among the reasons he wants Congress to give him the power to use the nation's military in law enforcement roles in the United States.

I think I just threw up in my own mouth.

Lobotomy Boy
October 6, 2005, 11:13 AM
I've never seriously believed that the Neocons were behind 9/11, but Bush's attempt to repeal Posse Comitatus has me entertaining the idea for the first time. This is flat-out insane. Yes, we are overdue for a pandemic, and avian flu may be it, but the leap of logic needed to get from there to repealing posse comitatus indicates that the Bush administration is just grasping for an excuse to repeal one of the most important laws preventing us from tyranny.

I once had a discussion with author Hunter S. Thompson about the similarities between Bush's rise to power and his methods for consolidating power and those used by Hitler. I wasn't comparing Bush to a genocidal maniac; I was just commenting on the similarities of their governing methods. The most striking similarities involved comparisons between Karl Rove and Josef Goebels. Again, I wasn't commenting on Rove's morals or comparing him to a mass murderer--I was just pointing out the similarities between the administrative methods both men used. I was comaring the methods of Rove and Bush to Goebels and Hitler, not their motives.

This latest development has me wondering if I wasn't too kind when I assumed that the motives of Bush and Rove were measurably more benevolent than those of Hitler and Goebels.

Folks, I'm really starting to think the ????ehammer has begun to come down. Let's just hope that all our discussions on the importance of freedom and liberty don't evaporate like so much blustery hot air and that we all don't just roll over and urinate on our soft, fleshy underbellies in the face of true tyranny.

EasternShore
October 6, 2005, 01:14 PM
I have gone to the absurd to make the point in this thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=159389&page=1&pp=25

None of this is about the bird flu or ebola or meteors or terrorist or Saddam or anything else that might threaten this country. This is consolidation of power. In the worst way. Bush is becoming a master a playing the media and asking congress for more power. Example:

Bush: My nominee to replace O'Connor, Meirs!

Media: Meirs this Meirs That!

Bush: Psst! Hey congress I want Posse Comitatus repealed, what do you think?

Media: Meirs! Meirs! Meirs!

He has done this several times. Having voted for him both times I used to applaud the way he played the media. Now he is starting to scare me.

Lucky
October 6, 2005, 02:41 PM
They destroyed millions of chickens in Vancouver area because of avian flu infections. The virus is already spread, if it mutates that virus will be spread too. Men with rifles enforcing curfews and confiscating personal firearms can't stop infections.

And I should point out that if you quarantine a town because you see symptoms then you are in folly. When you show symptoms it means you've been a carrier for long enough to infect many others.

On the bright side, it is almost guaranteed that no virus will kill everyone and everything, because that kills the virus too:) A productive virus, the one that Darwin suggests will survive to reproduce the most, is the virus that leaves the host alive to help it transmit to other hosts. They tried to kill all the rabbits in Australia witha manufactured virus, and the virus mutated. The super deadly virus they invented died out, because it's hosts died out. What came to be was a dynamic equilibruim between a new less-lethal virus, and the rabbit population.

:)


Don't worry, be happy.


Oh yea, except for your government trying to consolidate power. That's a little disconcerting. Well, try to stay out of trouble, keep the noise down at nights, and remember Canada is too cold, not worth invading. Really, you won't like it here. Funny accents and igloos, and cold, so cold.

spartacus2002
October 6, 2005, 02:42 PM
I, too, have for years studied pre-Nazi and Nazi Germany, because I have always been fascinated by how a proud, intelligent nation with a great culture could fall under the sway of an authoritarian government and a madman like Hitler.

A nation like ours, birthed in civil disobedience and insurrection, forgets its founding principles as the fiery forces of history cool with the passing of time. Every government, even those started with the noblest of intentions, falls prey to the desire for order and control as it forgets its past. It eventually becomes the thing it sought to destroy. It is the nature of government to do so, because, as George Washington said, "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master."

We have much to learn from history, such as how the true downfall of a nation lies in the citizens allowing the government to define the nation, and how the greatest corrupting influence is in allowing fellow citizens to say such things as "if I have nothing to hide, why shouldn't I let the government search my house/car/library records?"

Biker
October 6, 2005, 02:49 PM
Damn Spartacus, wish I'd said that!
Biker

spartacus2002
October 6, 2005, 02:56 PM
While Bush's idea of using the military to enforce a quarantine is scary, most states already have such laws on the books. In Virginia for example, if public health officials declare an emergency quarantine, people can be quarantined for the duration of time that the disease is communicable. They have to give you a hearing within 48 hours if you request it.

Big difference between quarantining one infected individual at a time, and having soldiers shoot anybody trying to leave a cordon around Richmond or NYC.

Chrontius
October 7, 2005, 08:38 PM
Five bucks says they wouldn't be bothering to ship adequate supplies into the cordoned area. (conveniently weakening the immune systems of the malnourished and such)

On the other hand, remember SARS? That was kind of a letdown, in a good way.

rick_reno
October 7, 2005, 08:49 PM
While I remain oppossed to the way Bush is going about this - I am convinced the military is going be the only govt entity that will be even remotely capable of managing a flu pandemic.

1911 guy
October 9, 2005, 01:29 AM
The media spin on bird flu (H5N1) is far more dangerous to us than the virus. Look at population densities, infections and mortalities in the affected areas. High population, low infection per capita and high mortality rates. This virus is not much of a threat in the grand scheme of things. Well over half of the people infected by H5N1 have died. What we will see is the virus mutating into a strain less virulent or it will burn itself out in a few more years. The real danger here is the vise-like hold our government wants to place on us to protect us from a non-issue.

Thin Black Line
October 9, 2005, 03:14 AM
Avian flu? Nah, nothing to worry about....just stay calm while we take a
sample :)

Nothing to see here, move along, folks.....

Lupinus
October 9, 2005, 04:00 AM
If it goes to epidemic levels then yes the military should help. But it should in no way shape or form be placed in control. Doing that will be the end of civil freedom's. Once they have us under their complete control and have all of our gun's there is nothing to make them give it back, and likly it will never happen.

So yes. Use the military to help keep area's seperated to keep the virus from spreading. But do not give them complete control over anything. And if you think with mass hystaria goign on I am giving up my gun you are out of your mind. Why should I give up my gun? Are you going to station men there to fight off someone trying to rob me of anything of use so it is my family that starves instead of them?

I used to support Bush. He is quickly loosing my respect. He is still better then Kerry, he has that much. I can even see the good, if I don't completly agree with it, in the patriot act. But this is become redicules now. If we don't get better people in DC we are doomed.

Alex45ACP
October 9, 2005, 04:17 AM
If we don't get better people in DC we are doomed.

Unfortunately, people say this but then they vote for the same people next time around. Things will only get worse.

Get ready; the police state is coming.

Leatherneck
October 9, 2005, 08:53 AM
I think Bush is exactly right when he says:"One option is the use of a military that's able to plan and move," he said. "So that's why I put it on the table. I think it's an important debate for Congress to have."
I just don't share his presumed view of the outcome of that debate should be. What a glorious thing it would be if Congress had the debate and came out with: "Knock it off. Right now. Creeping federalism has to stop."

Yeah, right. Dream on, Leatherneck.

TC

Lupinus
October 9, 2005, 10:11 AM
People given the chance at more power over other's will rarly pass it up, it's human nature to want to lead the pack.

And yes I know that sometime's we vote for the party we complain about but voting for the lesser of evil's is better then no vote at all and taking a chance on a bigger evil then the one you voted for.

Educating people on politic's would do much to get rid of the two party system we are locked in and not make it such of a situation of the lesser of two evil's. But untill that happen's a vote for someone that is the lesser of the evil's is better then nothing at all.

RealGun
October 9, 2005, 10:11 AM
I think Bush has learned to preempt criticism. While he will be criticized for bringing this up...criticized for anything regardless...he has a defense when SHTF and people call for the military as a way of getting the job done in realistic terms.

The concept is partly rhetorical. If people don't like the prospect of military involvement, new empowerment actually, then let them think of a better idea.

Thin Black Line
October 10, 2005, 02:15 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051010/ap_on_he_me/europe_bird_flu

Towns quarantined behind checkpoints......

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