.380 vs compact 9mm?


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Dollar An Hour
October 4, 2005, 11:46 PM
Considering a Bersa or CZ-83 in .380 but with the cost of ammo and the compact 9mm's available, is there any reason to get a .380 instead of a compact 9mm?

I know a ton of guys here have .380's. What is it about them you like? Doesn't a 9mm do everything better, for less $$?

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Texfire
October 5, 2005, 12:34 AM
Well in my opinion, and it might be the minority one, the difference between .380, 9mm Makarov and 9mm Parabellum is minimal in comparison to pistol caliber vs. rifle caliber. More important for self defense with a pistol caliber is bullet construction.

There are lots of choices, but any form of deforming defensive round will be more effective than ball ammuntion. This, with some exceptions, means some type of hollow point round vs. a full metal jacketed round.

This is grossly simplified, but the hollow point round will deform more than a ball round, and the increased surface area will expend more of it's energy in the target before exiting, if at all. Unfortunately the hollow point that makes that round so effectively expand can cause it to misfeed when being chambered in some firearms.

So a primary consideration for me in a defensive firearm is how well it feeds defensive rounds, more so than what the actual caliber is.

I have a CZ-82 which is identical to the CZ-83, except chambered in 9x18 Makarov, and my pistol feeds fairly deep hollowpoints without a problem. I also have a Browning BDM in 9mm Parabellum, and it handles hollowpoints without a problem. So I can suggest these two specific pistols, and can fairly assume that another two identical pistols might do as well, but you'll have to ask someone else about other pistols.

Lonestar.45
October 5, 2005, 02:58 AM
The only reason I like my .380 is because it's in a Kel-Tec 3AT--the size of the platform makes all the difference. There's not a 9mm out there that light and small. I wouldn't buy a .380 in anything else most likely.

I like Walther PPK's, but always balk on buying one because it's a .380 in a 9mm sized gun. Bersas are fine guns by many accounts, but in something that size you can get 9mm. Guess it depends on what you want to use it for. If it's for defense or concealed carry, get the 9mm. If it's mostly for plinking and range work, then the .380 may be more of a joy to shoot for you.

VG
October 5, 2005, 03:20 AM
.380's can be lighter and smaller as many of them are blowback designs.

If your hands are at all big, though, you may find that a small 9 fits you better.

Mulliga
October 5, 2005, 08:16 AM
A .380 can always be lighter than a 9mm, because there isn't as much recoil, and, as people mentioned above, you can use blowback. I'm guessing a sub 10 oz. gun like the P3AT would be fairly unpleasant to shoot in 9mm (the P3AT uses locked-breech, so it's apples-to-apples as a 9mm version would be locked-breech too). Performance wise, 9mm blows .380 out of the water (something like 50% more energy which is reflected by 9mm's superior penetration/expansion from almost every load).

Bobo
October 5, 2005, 10:13 AM
If the size and weight of the Bersa and CZ are good for you, you can get many pistols in 9mm that are similar in size and weight.

The advantages of 9mm over the .380 are:
greater power,
less expense,
and greater variety of ammo.

ID_shooting
October 5, 2005, 10:20 AM
I carry both, P3AT and a P11. The one I pick depends soley on how I am dressed. As stated above, the only reason I have a .380 is becuase of the P3AT. It is just too concealable.

Now with winter coming on, more clothing means I can conceal my P11 easy enough and with the bad guys wearing more clothing, the 9mm is more likley to penetrate heavy coats and still get to vitals better than the .380. Likewise, in the summer, the .380 will still punch through a light shirt and make it deep enough to do what is required.

I know this doesn't help with your decision, but for less than $500.00 you can have both 9mm and .380.

Dollar An Hour
October 5, 2005, 10:23 AM
What's typical ammo pricing for .380 vs 9mm? Does the .380 cost 50% more to shoot? Or is it only a dollar or two per box of 50?

Berg01
October 5, 2005, 10:26 AM
Considering a Bersa or CZ-83 in .380 but with the cost of ammo and the compact 9mm's available, is there any reason to get a .380 instead of a compact 9mm?

IMHO, Nein, Nyet, Nada, NO! This "perceived recoil" business gets blown way out of proportion. Anyone who tells you to go .380 over 9mm, because of less recoil, needs to get out to the range & practice with the 9mm. In other words, shoot the damn thing until you get accustomed to the way it shoots, then the "perceived recoil" won't bother you anymore.

outofbattery
October 5, 2005, 11:14 AM
My alloy 232 has more felt recoil than my 239; less mass and blowback operation tend to make this so.Even so,it isn't unpleasant or difficult to shoot but OTOH the 9mm is scarcely bigger and holds one more,more powerful round.

Dollar An Hour
October 5, 2005, 11:39 AM
I guess I'm thinking the CZ-83 is a fine gun, but for a little more money the 9mm RAMI is cheaper to shoot, conceals better and hits harder. Sortof a no-brainer.

What other compact 9mm's are worth a look?

ID_shooting
October 5, 2005, 11:48 AM
If you want 9mm, try out a Kel-Tec P11. I really like mine.

obiwan1
October 5, 2005, 11:53 AM
Kel Tec P11 or any flavor Kahr. :D

jem375
October 5, 2005, 12:00 PM
I once had a AMT back-up 380 and was out in the woods and shot at an old piece of tin shed roofing and all it did was dent the tin and that was enough for me, got rid of that pistol in a hurry....

Bobo
October 5, 2005, 01:05 PM
What other compact 9mm's are worth a look?
Glock 26 (http://www.glock.com/9x19.htm)
Kahr PM9 (polymer) or MK9 (metal) (http://www.kahr.com/front.html)
Kel-Tec P-11 (http://www.kel-tec.com/prod01.htm)
Springfield XD9 (http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-xdpstl-sub-compact.shtml)
Taurus Millenium Pro 111 (http://www.taurususa.com/products/gunselector-results.cfm?series=MP1)
Beretta 9000s (http://www.berettausa.com/product/product_pistols_main.htm)
Heckler & Koch P2000SK (http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/index.jsp?loc=101&SITEID=A&PartNumber=704204)
Para Warthog (http://www.paraord.com/product/product.html?id=7)
Sigarms P239 (http://www.sigarms.com/products/classicpersonalsize-models.asp?product_id=43)
Steyr S-series (http://www.steyr-aug.com/m_series_pistols.htm)
Smith & Wesson (http://firearms.smith-wesson.com/store/index.php3?cat=293614&sw_activeTab=1)

Wilson 17&26
October 5, 2005, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Dollar An Hour
is there any reason to get a .380 P-3AT, 8oz & " thick, under $250. Nuff said :)
http://www.wilson-genealogy.com/pics/p-3atwmags.gif

camper
October 5, 2005, 03:17 PM
Get a Kakr PM9.

Lonestar.45
October 5, 2005, 04:35 PM
I've got the 3AT and the Kahr PM9, and I can tell you that the 3AT has more recoil and is harder to control than the PM9 any day. It's not the most pleasant pistol to put 100 or more rds through in a single sitting, lets put it that way. But, the trade off is that it is lighter and smaller than just about anything out there, and easier to carry.

KnightHawk67
October 5, 2005, 04:45 PM
Give the CZ-RAMI 9mm a look at, same switch layout & grip angle of the 1911 (which I love). I have one and at the 2000 round mark, its still perfect.

http://www.cz-usa.com/01.detail.php?id=48

Dollar An Hour
October 5, 2005, 04:56 PM
Give the CZ-RAMI 9mm a look at, same switch layout & grip angle of the 1911 (which I love). I have one and at the 2000 round mark, its still perfect.

Do the RAMIs have the same gritty out-of-the-box trigger usually found on the CZ-75s and P-01s?

Is it a pretty accurate pistol out to 25 yds in your experience?

Is it pretty snappy, or mild-shooting? Seems like a 9mm that small might be a bit snappy.

No decocker, so either C&L carry, or you must drop the hammer (gently) on a live round for 1st shot DA, correct?

What's a fair price, around $425 NIB?

The_Shootist
October 5, 2005, 08:44 PM
Had a Bersa but the trigger mechanism broke on me. Too bad - as it was accurate, easy to conceal and clean. But in the back of my mind it always felt "cheap".

Anyways, after it broke, I wanted a similiar size gun/cartridge for pocket carry for summer CCW. Thought about stepping up to the SIG P232 but then read quite a few posts extolling the virtues of the Mak. So I picked up a Bulgy Mak for $ 200.

Initially I wasn't too impressed. It came from the Bulgarian armoury wrapped in a newspaper and plastic bag. I thought "Well, here's a classy piece!" As well, spending about 3 hr's getting all the cosmoline off of it didn't endear me any further to it. Turns out it was made in 1985 but looks brand new (once cleaned up!)

Then I took it to the range - my attitude changed significantly :D . It was accurate at normal self - defense ranges (ie 3-7 yds) even with the crummy sights, easy to shoot and went through the 1st 200 rounds eating everyting from Hornady to Wolf to Silver Bear (eventually settled on the Silver Bear as my SD round).

It was easy to take down and clean and felt SOLID! Built like a tank, it just imparted a feeling of reliability given its fit/finish and steel construction. Yeah, its heavy due to its all steel construction but boy does it feel comforting!

Add to that the 9x18 Makarov round is cheap to shoot (even with shipping after order on the Internet its about $ 7/box for Silver Bear) and beefier than the .380 (I get about 1000+ fps from 115 gr SB - approaching 9mm territory).

Its my main summer CCW carry. I'll likley switch back to my 1911/G19 when the weather turns colder and bad guys could be wearing more layers, but even then I sure don't regret my purchase!

greg531mi
October 5, 2005, 10:02 PM
There's not a 9mm out there that light and small.
Try:
http://rohrbaughfirearms.com/

A lightweight 9mm for your pocket carry, smaller than my Colt Pony......

Lonestar.45
October 6, 2005, 10:53 AM
Shootist, love the sig line. I have that clip and watch it at least once a day. :D

KnightHawk67
October 6, 2005, 03:10 PM
The RAMI is smooth as silk, probably close to as good in SA as my 1911 Mil-Spec. The DA mode pull is long, but smooth, I carry it with a round in the chamber (it has a firing pin safety in the trigger action). And yes, you have to manually decock it.

It is a bit snappy, the short barrel & the light frame make it a little jumpy. I personally stink at anything more than 30 feet with a pistol of any kind, so 25 yards might as well be the moon to me LOL! But at 20-30 feet, I keep all rounds on the 8.5 x 11 targets I use (yeah, yeah, I suck, but I figure thats close enough, hitting well enough to defend myself). :evil:

Yes, $425 is a fair price, almost exatly what I paid for mine.

Borachon
October 7, 2005, 12:12 AM
Looking at some of the posts here, I've come up with a question. I think it relates to the topic so I don't feel like I'm posting something off topic. So here goes.


Has anyone done any testing of the .380 to determine if heavy clothing, or multiple levels of clothing, is going to radically effect the bullet penetration? I've seen it stated more than once that the .380 might not have the oomph to do the job in the winter time, and I'm curious if any one has ever taken an old overcoat, a sweater, thermal undershirt and wrapped these around some ballistic gel or other material and tested them to see the effect.

Anyone know if any kind of test like this has been done? I'd be curious to see the results if so.

The_Shootist
October 7, 2005, 01:42 AM
Yeah Lonestar .45 - everytime Collateral comes on cable I sure make time to watch that sequence!

Can't think of a better example of "street justice" coming out of Hollyweird :evil:

Bobo
October 7, 2005, 12:29 PM
The_Shootist,
Yeah Lonestar .45 - everytime Collateral comes on cable I sure make time to watch that sequence!

Can't think of a better example of "street justice" coming out of Hollyweird For your viewing pleasure...
Tom Cruise in "Collateral" (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a34/r_oremland/TomCruiseinCollateral.gif)

Alan Fud
October 8, 2005, 09:45 PM
Compact 9mm (3913TSW) on left [bottom left] ...
http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/private/guns/f77.jpg
... Browning BDA380 on right [top right].

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