[Island Beretta]

Currently a wave of LEO depts. throughout America are conducting pistol evaluations. Rumour has it that the SW99 has impressed and HK is building a plant, hinting at a large contract (Border Patrol/INS???).

On the non-polymer side, the Beretta Vertec is gaining in popularity (maybe it can stop the drastic decline in Berettas presence in LEO) and the new Sig P226 is hot! :fire:

What have you heard or think??? Where do we go from here, will Glock's dominance be reduced/eliminated??? :confused:

[DeltaElite]

Nothing is changing that I am aware of.
My dept just dumped the HK USP in favor of Glock after testing many different guns, including the Walther P99, which is better than Smiths version.
If Beretta makes a better product than the 92 series, they might get back into the game, since the 92 series has proven less than popular in Le circles.
The new Sig with rails is indeed hot. I would carry one in a heartbeat.

Our new Glock 22's are being issued with M3 tac lights, nightsights and a holster for all.
Sig wasn't considered at the testing time, since they lacked the rails for the tac lights.
Sadly we will be stuck with the Glocks for at least a decade before another selection process is done, so I will be retired before another gun is picked.
I would love a Sig in 40 or 357 with a tac light on it. :D

[tlhelmer]

As a police officer, I can tell you and you may already know that because a dept. picks a certain gun does not always indicate that that gun did the best in testing. This is not aimed at Glock as much as it is the testing procedures in different police departments.

The choice of a firearm is not always closely connected to best performance. Issues such as cost, leather change, training for the transition and ammunition can paly a role. We switched from the Beretta 92G to the 96-G in 1998. The leading reason for the 96 was because it fit our existing leather:rolleyes: It may not seem like that big of a deal, but with 1700-2000 officers I guess it adds up.

[DeltaElite]

Cost is definitely a major factor.
The Walther was too expensive and since Glock practically gives the guns away to get you to change, I am not surprised we got Glocks.
I would have been happy with Sig or Walther.
We had to buy all new holsters for each officer, 1000+ holsters.
The mag holders worked and didn't need replacement.

[Mr. Purple]

Glocks do well because they are reasonably priced. More importantly, they are as close to a revolver as you can get in a semi auto. Glocks, like revolvers have nothing to get in the way of the draw and fire process. They have a consistent trigger pull thats usually lighter than a revolver. Just pull it out, get it on target and pull the trigger.

Those of us in law enforcement that are honest will admit that now-a-days most cops are not gun people and can't shoot worth a damn.

Simple is better and that saves cops lives. Long live the Glock.

[cratz2]

I haven't heard anything about any 'big changes'... Glocks are popular in law enforcement because they have a decent product and a good price and it's reasonably easy to train a bunch of officers pretty quickly that don't have much experience with guns.

Really, I like most of the current 'it' guns... Glocks, Berettas, P99s. Not that big a fan of SIGs though they make a fine gun. Never cared much for the S&W design either though I have plenty of experience with them. The full size USP is too big for my hand but the Beretta fits... go figure.

I honestly don't know why the Beretta design isn't even more popular than it is. I think if they had a lighter DAO design it might put them on a more level playing field with Glock and SIG.

[KY Moose]

I could see the Border Patrol and INS Inspectors getting away from the Beretta 96 models and going with something else now that they are part of Department of Homeland Security's Border, Immigration and Custom Enforcement (BICE). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read somewhere that INS went with Beretta only because they gave a large amount of money to the INS Director back in the day.

For a while, INS Inspectors were allowed to purchase Heckler and Koch USP 40 Compacts and carry them as duty weapons. IIRC, they are no longer allowed to carry USP Compacts as duty weapons and have to go with the Berettas. Since Customs and INS (including Border Patrol) are under one roof, I can see all three agencies using the same duty weapon. I just wonder if BICE will conduct pistol trials in order to pick a new weapon for all three groups.

Although this is just a possibility, I think you could see the INS Inspectors and Border Parol Agents switching to the Glock 17 just like what the Customs Inspectors carry. I have read were all three agencies are going to cross train into each others fields. You could have one Inspector checking passports one day, and performing inspections of cargo the next. Should be real interesting to watch what happens.

I think Glock is going to have a lot of competition in the law enforcement market in the near future. For a long time, Glock had the market all to itself when it came to law enforcement, because of the design and operation of the pistol. Since we now have the Springfield XD series, Smith P99s, and SIGs offered with the new light rail, we could start seeing more agencies carrying the above pistols rather than Glock.

[Handy]

I hear law enforcement may go back to the revolver.





Oh, God. Hahahahahahaha. I kill me sometimes.

[Nick96]

Hey Handy. Don't laugh too hard. A lot of LE's around here still prefer to carry revolvers when given a choice (mostly, it seems, the ones that have decieded to stay in the profession past their 20's).

Large cap mags, rapid reload capability and quick access to an additional 30+rounds can lead to a certian aire of invincebity. Not necessarily a good thing in light of all the "excessive force" shootings that seem to come up with some regularity. A little more situational awarenes, evaluation and control Vs. panic "spray & pray" is not an entirely bad thing.

[Tamara]

Two most recent buys around here:

TN Highway Patrol finally ditched their wretched Sigmas and went to .357SIG Glocks. (Glock distributor actually asked them to please not trade in the Sigmas as the last thing they wanted to do was to try to move hundreds of the things. :D )

Knoxville City PD eighty-sixed their 9mm Glocks in favor of .40 Glocks.

[1badmagnum]

I'm guessing springfield xd pistols will put glock out of business!
HOORRRRAAAAAYYYYYYY!!!!

:D :D :D :D

[ahenry]

Currently a wave of LEO depts. throughout America are conducting pistol evaluations. Rumour has it that the SW99 has impressed and HK is building a plant, hinting at a large contract (Border Patrol/INS???). There is no official word but I would be willing to put half of my money on the fact that HK is one of the two final pistols for the INS (NFU) contract. I’d put the other half on the SW99 being the other finalist. ;)

Glock never could get a pistol to handle the hot INS load and after the abysmal failures they had in the last NFU test, I’m not sure if they even submitted a weapon this time around. Berretta lost the current contract with the INS because they wouldn’t honor their warranties as long as more than one company was supplying the ammo. As to what you are saying about Glock loosing contracts, I would have to say I think they are and will continue to. Glock won a ton of their contracts cause of the really great prices the offered to agencies to change over to Glock as well as being the new “wunderpistol”. They’ve coasted on that for a while now, and I think unless they start some innovation and such they will loose contracts as agencies start to go through new weapons testing in the next few years.

[ahenry]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read somewhere that INS went with Beretta only because they gave a large amount of money to the INS Director back in the day. I don’t know where you read that, but I have been a part of perpetuating that myth. A lot of people, that I thought knew what they were taking about, told me “stories” about bribery and failed tests on the part of the Berretta. It was easy to believe this, afterall ask any agent what he thinks of his “Burrito”, and its field performance. I made the mistake of passing along what turned out to be faulty information and it was only recently that I was shown that this was not the case. In fact, recently I was able to actually converse with the gentleman who ran the NFU weapons testing that selected the Berretta. I am convinced that the Berretta (at the time of the testing at least) was the winner, hands down (BTW, price was hardly a factor in the NFU tests). Since I was vocal in my misplaced criticism, I will do what I can to correct the misconception. :o

For a while, INS Inspectors were allowed to purchase Heckler and Koch USP 40 Compacts and carry them as duty weapons. IIRC, they are no longer allowed to carry USP Compacts as duty weapons and have to go with the Berettas. Its a confusing policy, but its still possible for the USP to be carried.


Although this is just a possibility, I think you could see the INS Inspectors and Border Parol Agents switching to the Glock 17 just like what the Customs Inspectors carry. Try it the other way around. Its far more likely that Customs agents will begin to carry what the BP carries, or even more likely two to four pistols will be allowed. I can almost guarantee that the BP will not start to carry what Customs has simply because NFU just completed their new tests and awarded a new contract to one of two companies (or possibly split the contract between the two winners). The “merging” (sort of a misnomer, but I digress) between Customs and BP was known before the testing even started. I know that nothing the gov’t ever does makes any sense, but I don’t think the bean counters would have let them get away with a multi million dollar (I assume its that large) contract only to break it a couple months later.

[Blueduck]

Glock and S/W seem to be willing to cut the best deals and provide the most "perks" while seeking LE contracts.

General consensus around the Departments I work is that while Glock is still one of the best companies for LE agencies to work with it's not like the old days where they would practically give you the guns, buy you dinner and wash your car for taking them.

S/W may in fact have the upper hand in the whole deal being an American company and recently getting some prestigious if not large government contracts...

While I like the 92FS from what I'm seeing not sure I'd be buying any Beretta stock at the moment:uhoh:

All that and what INS/Homeland security/FBI chooses won't affect my purchases one little bit :cool:

[KY Moose]

Thanks for the information ahenry. It should be interesting to sit back and see what goes on with BICE in the next few years.

[ahenry]

Not to be picky or anything but BICE doesn’t include the BP, the BP falls under BCBP (or just CBP).

[Erik]

Immigration Inspectors and Border Patrol Agents are under BCBP.

The Special Agents and Detention Officers are under BICE.

----
All Immigration Officers are currently being issued the HKs, with the exception of the BPAs. All will replace their pistols upon reaching 10,000 rounds with the HKs.

Unless of course, a pistol other than the HK actually wins the new contract, which at this point seems unlikely. (The results have not been released.)

----

It will be a cold year on the southern border when the INS, the Border Patrol in particular, lets Customs effect their choice in firearms. ;)

On a more practical point, the INS has more armed officers than the USCS has. (Make that "had" for both entities.) Economics dictates, along with INS pride, that USCS transition and not the other way around. Besides, who wants to downgrade calibers?

[ahenry]

It will be a cold year on the southern border when the INS, the Border Patrol in particular, lets Customs effect their choice in firearms. HAHA, if you could only have been a fly on the wall to some of the conversations I’ve heard.


Unless of course, a pistol other than the HK actually wins the new contract, which at this point seems unlikely. (The results have not been released.) Last I “heard” there were two pistols in the running. Has this changed?

[Island Beretta]

Guys, thanks for your input so far..very informative. It appears likely that the playing field has changed with improvements in current pistols (Sig, HK) and new (well relatively) products (XD, P99 etc.). A new wave of .45 ACP 1911 clones abound as well that makes shooting the .45 a pleasure!!

I hope a few years from now we can look back and see how it all worked out!!

I agree.. a DAO Beretta with a short, light trigger and maybe losing a few ounces would catapult Beretta into the limelight again..also it would not hurt if they would adopt some accuracy improvements although the gun is very accurate out of the box but it is capable of so much more.

I am considering changing my Compact L because of the DA/SA pull. Somewhere during the first 3 critical shots in a self-defense situation I am sure to have a flyer. The transition is not the best and causes you to slap the SA trigger on the second shot. To avoid this you have to practice cocking the hammer on the draw, assuming you remember to release the safety lever. The gun is however so reliable that you fear picking up a lemon should you change it.

The operating simplicity is what makes the Glocks so popular!!:what:

[Blueduck]

Island,

I personally had A LOT of trouble dealing with the double to single action transfer. Still building on it but working on trigger reset skills has really improved my shooting with my 4506.

First shot SLOW double action hold the trigger all the way back after the shot. Now only let go far enough forward to reset before pulling off subsequent shots. Start slow build speed.

I was past thirty before I learned the trigger was not supposed to "dissapear" after the first shot:o

Helped me anyway, YMMV.

Best, Blueduck

[arinvolvo]

The metro police department in my city recently ditched their HK USPs for Makarovs...go figure.:D

They also traded in their 12 guage pumps for Mosin Nagants. Not the choice I would have made, but then again, I am not an LEO.

[DonGlock26]

I thought the New Jersey State Police tried to go with the SW-99, but the pistols were junk. They ended up going with the P228 to replace their H&K P-7's.

[Erik]

"Last I “heard?there were two pistols in the running. Has this changed?"

Sorry, I haven't heard one way or another, and the folks who I have reason to believe are somewhat in the know seem to enjoy torturing me with lack of specifics. ;)

[Poohgyrr]

When we switched to G .40's, I noticed two things.

Glock offered us a heck of a deal; and the performance of several Ofc's improved quite a bit.

For my two cents, if I can't carry my favorite Hi Power, and I have to have a double action trigger, then I like Glock's a whole lot. :D

As far as changing away from Glock, well folks keep re-electing those politicians, so I guess anything is possible.

[Destructo6]

I would say there are strong indications that Border Patrol will be switching to HK. The USPc is issued to some of their plainclothes types and BORTAC.

Now if only they'd ditch the DAO trigger.

[Drundel]

I know I've been away from pistols for a while but what new 226? The SS one?

Also, I have not been happy with the links about the VERTEC, anyone have a great one?