NC: Anti-Open Carry proposal in Charlotte


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Rob1035
October 7, 2005, 09:48 AM
GRNC is already on it, but here goes anyways:


From the Charlotte Observer-

"Police: Stop the public pistol packing

New rule proposed after they get several reports from uptown

KYTJA WEIR AND RICHARD RUBIN

Staff Writers

Hold your holsters: Charlotte-Mecklenburg police want to limit public gun toting.

A new proposal would crack down on anyone who displays a handgun -- even if it's not pointed at anyone -- while walking on city streets or sidewalks. Violators could be charged with a misdemeanor.

People with concealed weapon permits could continue keeping their guns tucked under pant legs, holstered under jackets or packed into purses. Law enforcement officials could still display their weapons.

Police will present the proposal to the Charlotte City Council Monday evening.

But already, an N.C. gun-rights leader said he plans to "oppose vociferously" such restrictions. Paul Valone, president of Grass Roots North Carolina, said the ordinance would be another example of bureaucrats trying to make "criminals out of law-abiding citizens."

The proposed ordinance resembles a 12-year-old rule in "Chapel Hill.

There, small handguns cannot be displayed on public streets. The town also prohibits display at polling places, by people under the influence of alcohol or drugs and at "public assemblies," defined as the gathering of three or more people on public property.

Chapel Hill adopted the series of gun restrictions following the use of a handgun in a homicide there, said Town Attorney Ralph Karpinos.

In Charlotte, police said, violence didn't prompt the idea. But they recently received several reports of people walking around uptown, wearing guns openly, said Mark Newbold, a police attorney.

No one was threatening anyone with the weapons, police said. And officers checked out the calls, making sure felons weren't carrying the guns.

After Monday, the proposed ordinance would likely head to the council's community safety committee, chaired by Mayor Pro Tem Patrick Cannon.

"I certainly don't want to wait until we find ourselves in a situation where an incident takes place in a congested area where innocent bystanders are shot and potentially killed," Cannon said"

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gc70
October 7, 2005, 11:58 AM
<sarcasm>

Oh my! I am afraid when I see people drinking alcoholic beverages in places open to the public that they will become drunk. Let's ban alcohol. We certainly don't want to wait until we find ourselves in a situation where an incident takes place in a congested area where innocent bystanders are injured and potentially killed by a drunk.

</sarcasm>

Charlotte may have the dubious distinction of having local lawmakers who are even more disfunctional than those in the US Congress.

dasmi
October 7, 2005, 12:01 PM
In Charlotte, police said, violence didn't prompt the idea. But they recently received several reports of people walking around uptown, wearing guns openly, said Mark Newbold, a police attorney.

No one was threatening anyone with the weapons, police said. And officers checked out the calls, making sure felons weren't carrying the guns.

So no crime was committed, no one was threatened. There was no violence. But let's make a new law anyway, just to make us feel better. I hate this kind of thinking, with every fiber of my being.

LAR-15
October 7, 2005, 12:17 PM
If bystanders are killed it's because of the police who can't shoot straight.


Why not just arrest these people as 'going armed to the terror of the public'?


NC has such a law

Oh and I wish Sue Myrick was still mayor.

Standing Wolf
October 7, 2005, 10:29 PM
Gosh, golly! I carried openly all day today in Colorado. Nobody called the cops. Nobody even noticed. That's the way is almost always is around here. Once in a great while, someone appears to notice my hip-holstered pre-agreement Smith & Wesson 629 .44 magnum, but to date—about six months, I'd say—only one person other than my fellow bullseye shooters has said a single word, and she was merely curious.

larry starling
October 7, 2005, 10:34 PM
It figure's Charlotte is a Liberal Anti gun city. It has the highest tax rate in the state and the highest crime rate to match...... :D

NCP24
October 7, 2005, 11:43 PM
Why not just arrest these people as 'going armed to the terror of the public'? Because they have Judge “Let-em go Lenard” in Distric Court.

It figure's Charlotte is a Liberal Anti gun city. It has the highest tax rate in the state and the highest crime rate to match...... Yeap, You forgot to mention Charlotte/Mecklenburg County govnerment thinks they're a state.

Alex45ACP
October 7, 2005, 11:55 PM
I used to live in Charlotte, still go there to visit all the time, and have never seen anyone carrying openly. I wasn't even aware it's legal there.

NCP24
October 8, 2005, 12:21 AM
I used to live in Charlotte, still go there to visit all the time, and have never seen anyone carrying openly. I wasn't even aware it's legal there. I suppose they didn’t have a witness for “going armed to the terror of the public”, plus they have “Let-em go Lenard” and others like him in District Court. I heard just last week the judges were taking it upon themsevles to reduce the states structured sentencing law in order to reduce jail/prison space- that should go over like a brick.

3rdpig
October 8, 2005, 12:22 AM
I'm about as pro 2nd as a person can get, but I sometimes think that we gun owners get a little too worked up over open carry. Remember that even back in the wild west most towns and cities had laws on the books against carrying guns openly. The gunfight at the OK corral was incited by the Cowboys carrying openly into Tombstone against the law and the Earps went to disarm them. Laws against open carry are nothing new. Average citizens didn't then, and still don't today, want to see people carrying guns at church on Sunday or out shopping with the kids. It frightens them and when they're frightened the first thing they do is complain to some politician and get laws passed.

I"m not saying that open carry should be illegal or those that open carry shouldn't be able to, just that it's nothing new that there are laws against it.

Rob1035
October 8, 2005, 02:11 AM
My problem with this is that its redundant, instead of inforcing laws on the books ("terrorizing the public" or whatever) they are making new laws. Brilliant.

Telperion
October 8, 2005, 02:31 AM
Doesn't North Carolina have preemption laws to prevent whiny city councils from doing this? If not, maybe that should be NC gun owners' next priority.

P.S. Get rid of those abominable handgun purchase permits, too.

Waitone
October 8, 2005, 02:38 AM
Charlotte may have the dubious distinction of having local lawmakers who are even more disfunctional than those in the US Congress.Ding, ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. Give the contestant a cigar.

If you only knew how disfunctional the city county goobermint is you would be truly astounded. NC is a socialists paradise. CLT/Mecklenburg is a yuppy ghetto, more money that common sense. I used to live there but went over the wall about 6 months ago and haven't looked back. The traffic is inhuman. :(

hammer4nc
October 8, 2005, 07:22 AM
Hold your holsters: Charlotte-Mecklenburg police want to limit public gun toting.
<self-righteous indignation> Don't blame the police, they only enforce the law!!!</self righteous indignation>

Should we expect the dozens of Charlotte police who are pro-gun, to testify at the council meeting, in opposition to their grabber department's proposal? :neener:

Rob1035
October 8, 2005, 07:37 AM
remember folks, crime in Charlotte is a community problem, not a police problem....

Mr.V.
October 8, 2005, 07:42 AM
Man I wish this was our problem in california. "Oh no I can't wear my gun outside my pants!" I'll have to conceal it or store it along with my various semi-automatic, pistol-gripped, flash-suppressed rifles!"

You have no idea how lucky you are for this to be your anti-gun issue =)

NCP24
October 8, 2005, 08:49 AM
Going Armed To The Terror Of The People

By common law in North Carolina, it is unlawful for a person to arm himself with any unusual and dangerous weapon, for the purpose of terrifying others, and go about on public highways in a manner to cause terror to others. The N.C. Supreme Court has said that any gun is an unusual and dangerous weapon for purposes of this offense. Therefore persons are cautioned as to the areas they frequent with firearms. http://www.grnc.org/firearms.htm also see http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/ThurmanIII.htm for references.


The North Carolina Supreme Court established a consistent interpretation of the right to bear arms between 1843 [69] and 1968. [70] The court held the North Carolina Constitution guaranteed an individual the right to bear arms subject only to reasonable regulation by the legislature. In the cases considering the scope of constitutionally permissible regulations, however, the court dealt only with time, place, and manner restrictions on carrying arms. [71] [Page 1085]

ccw007
October 8, 2005, 08:56 AM
I seen this on Glocktalk and thought I would share me view here :D
I hope I do not offend our Charlotte friends....
Look at a map of NC.

On the coast, you can see a face and our founding fathers made our boarders to look like an animal because of this, or so I have been told back in grade school.

The front leg comes down by Wilmington

The back leg is south of Charlotte

The tail of NC extends to the TN and GA line and tapers down to a point.

Charlotte is roughly located where the tail and hind leg meet making it the butt crack of North Carolina

and now you know my opinion of the Charlotte area

Rob1035
October 8, 2005, 11:56 PM
I live in Charlotte for school, no offense taken :cool:

ny32182
October 9, 2005, 12:21 AM
My parents live just south of Charlotte in SC. I'm just happy I can now CCW in Charlotte with my SC permit.

To you guys in Kali: Yes, we are very happy that our problems are not as bad as yours. But... if we don't oppose every new gun law, no matter what it is, soon, they will be as bad as yours. Even if I have no intention of ever open carrying in Charlotte or anywhere else, making a law that bans said activity just clears the way for laws that *will* affect me.

44Brent
October 9, 2005, 10:51 AM
Grass Roots North Carolina, P.O. Box 10684, Raleigh, NC 27605
919-664-8565, www.grnc.org, GRNC Alert Hotline: (919) 562-4137

GRNC Alert 10-09-05:
Charlotte Ordinance Threatens Your Rights

We informed you Friday of a sneak attack on your right to self-protection planned by the Charlotte City Council in collaboration with the administration of the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department. Briefly recapping; on Monday, October 10, 2005, the City Council of Charlotte, NC will entertain an ordinance to ban the open display of firearms in public. The proposal, being pushed by the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Chief of Police, will be discussed at the dinner briefing held at 5:00 pm at the Conference Center, immediately prior to the 7:00 pm council meeting in Room 267 at the Charlotte Mecklenburg Government Center, 600 E. Fourth Street. The proposed ordinance is patterned after a similar ordinance passed 12 years ago in Chapel Hill, NC. The Chapel Hill ordinance bans the display of handguns on public streets and sidewalks and allows police to charge the offender with a misdemeanor.

You may be saying, "But I only carry concealed, why should I care," or "a responsible citizen keeps his firearm properly concealed," or simply "why would anybody need to carry in the open." All good questions, so why should you care?

WHY YOU SHOULD CARE!

What about the jewelry store that has been robbed multiple times culminating in the murder of an employee. Is the owner a criminal for now walking about his shop--where there are hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of diamonds temptingly in glass cases--with a pistol strapped to his side in plain view. What of the liquor store owner who now arms his clerks--after training and range time--because his store, in a bad part of town, had been robbed weekly and one of his employees beaten nearly to death by a couple of crack addicts? Is he wrong to do this? While inside his store, the owner is fine, but once he steps onto the sidewalk to go to his car, he would be in violation of the law. Should these people only be allowed to protect their lives by deterring these crimes if they have attended the Police Academy? Should an insurance agent who has had to visit a client in the evening and is now driving home late through a gang controlled neighborhood not be allowed to lay his personal protection weapon on the seat, in full compliance with long standing current laws?

You might be thinking that you aren't in any of those professions and only carry concealed anyway, how could it impact you? Good question! What if you wish to enter an establishment or government office where you are not allowed to carry your legally concealed self-protection handgun? If you are like a number of law-abiding citizens, you first secure it in the trunk of your car. What if someone sees it and reports you? No big deal right? You didn't "brandish" it or point it at anyone. Currently you would be right. Under this new ordinance, you would now be a criminal just because someone saw it!

Perhaps, you are headed to your local indoor firing range for a little practice. What if your neighbor from a "safe," "gun-free" large city elsewhere sees you and doesn't approve. In accordance with the instructions of the various gun-control organizations decides to be a "good citizen." This could lead to, not only, a knock on the door, but also to a little ride in the back of a shiny new police car. But this wouldn't happen, right? How often have you watched one of those real cops shows or read an article where the officers expressed sorrow about having to "do our job" and arrest someone who didn't mean to do anything wrong, but "he did break the law."

Finally, it is our sincere hope that you never have to draw your weapon in defense of your life or family, but if you should, could this mean that you are now in violation because you publicly "displayed" your weapon?

The Real Question --FOR WHAT REASON?

Now, this raises a question; what necessitates this new ordinance. Have there been roving bands of armed citizens terrorizing the city; any quick draw shootouts at high noon on Main Street? To answer this question we simply need to examine the words of the police representatives. Police attorney, Mark Newbold reports that there have been no altercations involving violence or injury. The Charlotte Observer reported, the police "recently received several reports of people walking around uptown, wearing guns openly, said Mark Newbold, a police attorney. No one was threatening anyone with the weapons, police said. And officers checked out the calls, making sure felons weren't carrying the guns."

In short the police are getting nuisance calls from anti-gun do-gooders who are either afraid of their own shadows or simply disapproved of what they saw. Once they arrive, the police administrators are annoyed that there is nothing they can do about this because the subjects of this harassment have broken no laws. So the obvious solution is to make YOU more arrestable.

Heaven forbid that this should happen in Charlotte, but one only has to look at events down in New Orleans following the hurricane and in Los Angeles after the Rodney King verdict to understand what can happen in a larger city when there is civil breakdown. In both situations the police were forced to stand back until the anarchy subsided to some extent before they could begin to restore order. During the Los Angeles riots, a number of Asian storeowners defended their property with so-called "assault rifles" against the mobs. Their families survived and their properties remained intact. However, what is less widely reported is the fact that many of them were later prosecuted on "weapons violations" after being identified in news footage as they stood their ground with the police nowhere to be seen. Should this kind of scenario occur in Charlotte, would you be prosecuted if you "displayed" your weapon in the defense of your home?

IMMEDIATE ACTION REQUIRED

- Use our auto-emailer to contact the members of the Charlotte City Council:
http://www.grnc.org/alerts/email10_9_05a.htm

Alternate (mostly for AOL users)
http://www.grnc.org/alerts/email10_9_05b.htm

-------------------------
Dear [Council Member]:

There is no need for an ordinance to ban the display of firearms in the City of Charlotte. This has never been a problem and Charlotte-Mecklenburg police attorney; Mark Newbold admits that there is no problem now. This is simply a tool that will be used to harass the honest citizens who simply wish to keep themselves safe from those the police should be focusing their attentions on. With violent crime increasing in Charlotte, that is where police should be concentrating their energies.

Criminals ignore laws and will not be deterred by any such frivolous ordinance. This will only serve to turn many law-abiding citizens into criminals, all for the sake of pleasing those who are ignorant of both firearms and southern customs. I will be watching this very closely via Grass Roots North Carolina alerts and demand that you take whatever steps necessary to prevent this from becoming law now or anytime in the future. I am prepared to cast my vote for your opponent in the upcoming or future election should my demand not be taken seriously.

Also consider that I will refrain from doing any business in Charlotte and will spend my money in other communities if I am denied the right to protect myself in your city.

Sincerely,
-------------------------

- Show up Monday, 10/10/2005 at 4:45pm at Charlotte Mecklenburg Government Center, 600 E. Fourth Street, Room 267. We MUST have a sizeable presence to let them know this is a critical issue.

http://www.grnc.org/alerts/600EFourthStreet.htm

Please note: Firearms are NOT allowed in Charlotte City Government buildings. You must be UNARMED while on city property.


CITY CONTACTS
------------------------
Mayor Patrick McCrory (R)
mayor@ci.charlotte.nc.us
http://patmccrory.com/
1412-B East Boulevard, Suite 167
Charlotte, NC 28203

704-307-1244


Mayor Pro Tem Patrick De`Angelo Cannon
E-Mail: TryCannon@aol.com
Address: 15972 Cumnor Lane, Charlotte, NC 28277-2062
Phone: 704-890-1835
Fax: 704-527-2704

Council At Large:
Pat Mumford (R)
E-mail: patmumford@bellsouth.net
Address: 2208 Dilworth Road West, Charlotte, NC 28203
Phone: 704-358-1689
Fax: 704-358-4202

Susan Burgess (D)
Address: 1333 Carlton Avenue
Charlotte, NC 28203
Phone: 704-333-2874
Email: sburg346@aol.com

John Lassiter (R)
Email: Lassiter@bellsouth.net
Phone: 704-542-1426
Address: 2632 Winding Oak Dr.
Charlotte, NC 28270

District 1
Patsy Kinsey (D)
Email: pbk2@mindspring.com
Phone: 704-376-5367
Address: 2334 Greenway Ave.
Charlotte, NC 28204

District 2
James Mitchell, Jr. (D)
E-Mail: JamesDistrict2@aol.com
Address: 3425 Valerie Drive
Charlotte, NC 28216
Phone: 704-398-9480
Cell: 704-577-3349
Fax: 704-398-9479

District 3
Warren Turner (D)
Email: district3_turner@yahoo.com
Phone: 704-713-0452
Address: P.O. Box 35465
Charlotte, NC 28231

District 4
Gregory Phipps (D)
Email: District4phipps@aol.com
Address: 2307 Kersey Court, Charlotte, NC 28213
Phone: 704-596-9602

District 5
Nancy G. Carter (D)
E-Mail: 71170.3036@compuserve.com
Address: 1401 Cavendish Court, Charlotte, NC 28211
Phone: 704-336-3431
Fax: 704-770-0189

District 6
John H. Tabor (R)
E-mail: john@tabor2000.com
Address: 2425 Sharon Road, Charlotte, NC 28211
Phone: 704-362-1700

District 7
Don Lochman (R)
E-Mail: djloch@earthlink.net
Address: 6915 Linkside Court, Charlotte, NC 28277
Phone: 704-846-6976
Fax: 704-814-4036

Zach S
October 9, 2005, 02:02 PM
P.S. Get rid of those abominable handgun purchase permits, too.
That happened over a year ago, for those of us with carry permits.

LAR-15
October 9, 2005, 09:38 PM
But the pistol purchase permits should be done away with.

In GA you don't need any permits to buy a handgun.

Sad fact is most NC gun owners are perfectly OK with the handgun permits.

kahr40
October 10, 2005, 10:44 AM
To enforce Going Armed to the Terror of the Public you have to prove someone was terrorized. With this just nab 'em for open carry.

AF_INT1N0
October 10, 2005, 11:00 AM
44Brent wrote:

In short the police are getting nuisance calls from anti-gun do-gooders who are either afraid of their own shadows or simply disapproved of what they saw. Once they arrive, the police administrators are annoyed that there is nothing they can do about this because the subjects of this harassment have broken no laws. So the obvious solution is to make YOU more arrestable.

Shouldn't the police be able to arrest the caller for obstruction of justice?? I mean wasting the time of your local sherriff while he could be responding to a robbery, beating, etc. would make you guilty of obstruction of justice, right?

Henry Bowman
October 10, 2005, 11:29 AM
No one was threatening anyone with the weapons, police said. And officers checked out the calls, making sure felons weren't carrying the guns. If I reported seeing a person voting, would the po-po come out to make sure he wasn't a felon trying to vote? :rolleyes:

Johnny_Yuma
October 12, 2005, 12:48 AM
any idea how this proposal went over? I sent my e-mails to the council as requested but I haven't read any follow-up on the issue and I have not found anything through my own research. Any info is appreciated.

hammer4nc
October 12, 2005, 07:26 AM
story link (http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/12870590.htm)

Posted on Tue, Oct. 11, 2005

Proposed limit on handguns draws fire

Idea to ban openly carried firearms sent back to committee

RICHARD RUBIN

Staff Writer

The Charlotte City Council has stalled a proposed ban on openly carrying handguns.

City staffers, who suggested the idea, will study it for several more weeks and respond to the complaints aired by council members on Monday.

Police Chief Darrel Stephens wanted the council to send the issue to the community safety committee. But gun-rights advocates in the audience Monday evening and sharp questions from council members showed he had stepped into controversial territory.

"It's an issue that I know generates all kinds of debate and discussion, emotion when you begin talking about what's the best way to deal with firearms in our community," he said.

Stephens said four recent gun sightings in uptown prompted police to propose the ordinance. It would not affect residents who have permits to carry concealed weapons.

Democrat Warren Turner worried that discussing the ordinance would let residents know that they are allowed to display guns openly.

"Now, if we don't do something, are we going to be looking at Dodge City?" he asked, wondering why police would open what he called a can of worms.

"Sometimes," Stephens replied, "I feel it's my obligation to open the can."

Chapel Hill has a similar ordinance, adopted in 1993 after a handgun was used in a homicide. Charlotte officials have no written proposal or many details about what the ordinance would include.

City Manager Pam Syfert said the staff will study it for three or four weeks, then bring it back to the full council. That likely pushes any decision past the Nov. 8 election.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Comments:

1. Democrat coucilman worries that discussing the issue could let stupid citizens know they're actually allowed to open carry. ("SHHH, keep open carry laws SECRET, chief!")

2. The story doesn't tell if the gun-rights got to testify before the council, or what they said. [Any first-hand reports from Charlotte members?]

3. I'm waiting to hear of the many pro-gun Charlotte police who mobilized to testify against this brainfart by their chief...everyone repeat after me: "Don't blame the cops; they don't make the law, they only enforce it ." :scrutiny:

Waitone
October 12, 2005, 08:17 AM
1. Democrat coucilman worries that discussing the issue could let stupid citizens know they're actually allowed to open carry. ("SHHH, keep open carry laws SECRET, chief!") And that is precisely how Charlotte deals with issues in the city. It an old southern tradition. Polite people just don't talk about unpleasant things like illegal immigrants bankrupting social services, a crime wave featuring gang wars, drugs out the yingyang, and a judicial system grossly under-resourced for a city of its size. Nooo, you just ignore it. You get the Charlotte Observer (as leftist a rag as you'll find anywhere in the US) to ignore it. Don't tell the great Fed Up there is a problem. Meanwhile tax in Charlotte are eighth highest in the US and going higher. Don't talk about a perceived problem of open carry because by doing so you've alerted people to their "right to do so". Never mind the number of homicides in the city look like a bottle rocket. City Manager Pam Syfert said the staff will study it for three or four weeks, then bring it back to the full council. That likely pushes any decision past the Nov. 8 election.First, Stevens of police fame is a made blissninny who reports directly to Pam Syfert. Stevens is a part of the gang driving the city into the toilet. The fact that it was sent to committee to study until after the election is not surprising.

The city's blissninny mafia had determined it to be impolite and unseemly for a "World class city" with and "enviable center city" should have open carry of firearms. Because it looks unpleasant, open carry will be banned. Count on it.

RoyG
October 13, 2005, 05:57 AM
Online poll at the Charlotte Observer:
"POLL | Should police discourage guns in public?"
http://forums.charlotte.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=kr-cltissues&msg=1984.1&ctx=0

LAR-15
October 13, 2005, 11:50 PM
Has the Chapel Hill ban been taken to court?

DeseoUnTaco
October 14, 2005, 12:08 AM
Open carry is the next step. CCW reform is the best policy to happen to the gun rights movement in decades because it normalizes the idea of carrying a gun, and it gets a big chunk of people used to having CCW permits who won't give them up. Open carry is the logical follow-up. We need more open carry.

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