Winchester White Box Prohibited at Range


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Colt
October 7, 2005, 03:24 PM
There's an indoor range near me that specifically prohibits WWB ammo, as well as any Blazer ammo. The store attached to the range does not sell either brand. What they sell isn't exotic, but it is overpriced by about 20%. They rent guns, too, so I'm sure the ammo prices are designed to turn a profit from all the "tourist" shooters.

They claim that the WWB ammo "isn't reliable" and "we've had problems with it on the range." All I know is that their restrictions keep me from taking advantage of the local Wally World's competitive prices. I'm thinking that maybe they can't be competitive with WW"s prices, and have just elected to ban it from their range.

Has anyone experienced anything similar at their range?

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Henry Bowman
October 7, 2005, 03:26 PM
Do they allow you to bring in any ammo? That is, is it "bought there" ammo only?

Lupinus
October 7, 2005, 03:26 PM
Tell them it is the ammo oyu like and that work's best in your gun. And if they have a problem with that you will be taking your range time elsewhere and will recomend to every one of your friends that visit the range to do the same.

Waitone
October 7, 2005, 03:33 PM
They own the guns and the range. Their call. When you purchase your own firearms the problem disappears because you now assume the liability of any failures of ammo.

Azrael256
October 7, 2005, 03:37 PM
When you purchase your own firearms Wait, wait, they let you use your own ammo in their guns at all? That's what I'm getting, and I'm surprised. I haven't seen a range that would let you shoot your own stuff in their guns at all (rimfires excepted).

Colt
October 7, 2005, 03:40 PM
Do they allow you to bring in any ammo? That is, is it "bought there" ammo only?

You're allowed to bring your own ammo. I usually bring Remington UMC. They inspect your ammo and range bag before letting you onto the range.

I had started keeping my UMC boxes, though. Last time I went, about 4 months ago, I brought "4 boxes of UMC." What I really brought was 1 unopened box of UMC, and 3 UMC boxes loaded with WWB. I put the unopened box on top in my range bag, which is the only one they checked. This is risky, though, and could probably get me banned from the range. I didn't feel bad about it, because I figure the rule only exists so that they can take advantage of me. I will eventually get busted, though, when the range officer picks up some of my brass, which they do occassionally. Oddly enough, none of the WWB ammo failed, or caused me to "experience problems on the range." :rolleyes:

I only shoot there during the cold seasons, which are quickly approaching. In warmer weather, I use the public range, which has a "no more than 3 rounds may be loaded into any weapon at any time" rule. Talk about breaking a gun in slowly....

Colt
October 7, 2005, 03:42 PM
They own the guns and the range. Their call. When you purchase your own firearms the problem disappears because you now assume the liability of any failures of ammo.

You can bring your own guns and ammo, but the ammo can't be WWB or Blazer.

They also rent guns, which must be used with ammo purchased from them at the time of rental.

Colt
October 7, 2005, 03:44 PM
When you purchase your own firearms the problem disappears because you now assume the liability of any failures of ammo.

That's what I tried to tell them. When they made up excuses of reliability in WWB ammo, that's when I started to figure it was about $$.

Waitone
October 7, 2005, 03:48 PM
Blazer may be banned because of the ALumnum cases. The range is no doubt selling brass to melters making a few bucks. Aluminum screws the batch up. Steel cases can be magnetically separated. Don't understand WWB ban unless they had a few kbooms and the lawyers squawked.

Colt
October 7, 2005, 03:53 PM
The range is no doubt selling brass to melters making a few bucks.

Definitely. There are large buckets at the exit, one for each caliber. Some people keep their brass, but most don't.

countertop
October 7, 2005, 03:56 PM
I'm gonna call BS here.

Do they let you bring in handloads and relaods?

Carl N. Brown
October 7, 2005, 04:07 PM
My son and I use Winchester White Box when practicing
with 9mm, 40 S&W, .45 ACP and .30 carbine and have
had NO reliability or safety problems. (WWB ammo is not
just "Wally World" our local stocking dealer carries it.)

The range owners let you bring in your own ammo if it is
the same brand as they sell. But they want to sell you
ammo if you use WWB or Blazer (in your own gun?!).
We shoot outdoors at the gun club or my uncle's place:
I like to be reminded why I avoid those indoor ranges.

I have had one instance of getting an untrimmed case
in a premium brand ammo that would not chamber,
but I have had no problems (knock on wood) with WWB
or Blazer. In other words, I don't think the range has
a legitimate beef.

Colt
October 7, 2005, 04:08 PM
Do they let you bring in handloads and relaods?

They have restrictions "on certain reload types and smoky ammunition."

It seems to me that WWB is at least as safe, and certainly of more consistent quality than reloads. Not that properly reloaded ammo isn't safe, but given the wide spectrum of skills and experience among handloaders, I'd expect WWB to be at least as "safe."

Colt
October 7, 2005, 04:17 PM
Where they really "get" you is the first time you are informed of the rule. It's not on their rule board, just a tiny hand-scribbled sign near the lane rental register.

I was not happy the first time I showed up with all my gear, and a buddy whom I planned to introduce to the sport. They asked to see my ammo and I whipped out a box of 50-count WWB 45ACP. They said "you can't shoot that here." and pointed to their little notice.

At that point I was stuck and had to choose between spending $13 per box of 25-count UMC, or hiking back to Walmart to save $2.50 a box on the same UMC ammo. Of course I just bought their ammo.

There aren't any other indoor ranges in my area, which makes me a slave to this policy in winter months.

HankB
October 7, 2005, 04:21 PM
I've shot many, many thousands of rounds of 9mm WWB out of various of my 9mms with NO repeat NO problems whatsoever.

IMHO the range owner isn't content with charging you range fees, he wants you to buy his own overpriced ammo, too.

1 old 0311
October 7, 2005, 04:41 PM
My range will not allow ANY Wolf ammo. This CAN cause problems. Anything else is OK.

Kevin

AirForceShooter
October 7, 2005, 04:42 PM
no WWB??
They search you???

GoodBye

AFS

benEzra
October 7, 2005, 04:51 PM
Only problem I've ever had in maybe a thousand rounds of WWB 9mm was ONE round without any priming compound. Which is one more failure than I've ever had with any other brand, but not really a safety hazard on the range under most circumstances.

Double Naught Spy
October 7, 2005, 05:06 PM
Tell them it is the ammo oyu like and that work's best in your gun. And if they have a problem with that you will be taking your range time elsewhere and will recomend to every one of your friends that visit the range to do the same.

Sorry Lupinus, this isn't much of a threat. The range is well aware that any such restriction may limit business. They have weighed that aspect, potential income from those that only shoot WWI or Blazer, against what they perceive as potential liability.

The math is simple. They may lose a few sales and rental income, but that beats the heck out of losing the entire range in a lawsuit.

Do they have a realistic fear here? I don't think so, but it isn't my range.

HankB, you didn't read the thread. You can bring your own ammo, purchased somewhere else, so long as it isn't WWB or Blazer...if you bring your own gun.

The range only requires you to buy their ammo if you are renting one of their guns.

Colt, you are only a slave to their policies if you agree to them. If you go to that range voluntarily and shoot, then you are NOT a slave. That is a choice and one that apparently is a matter of convenience. No need to be a drama king by saying you are a slave. Nothing could be further from the truth. How many slaves take their guns and ammo to the local range to shoot?

Colt
October 7, 2005, 05:12 PM
No need to be a drama king by saying you are a slave

It's a figure of speech.

Edmond
October 7, 2005, 05:16 PM
They claim that the WWB ammo "isn't reliable" and "we've had problems with it on the range." All I know is that their restrictions keep me from taking advantage of the local Wally World's competitive prices. I'm thinking that maybe they can't be competitive with WW"s prices, and have just elected to ban it from their range.

My answer was to not go there anymore. We're not talking about the same range but the range I used to go to was even more Draconian. They gave me some BS about "clean fire" ammo only, like the Winchester clean fire ammo. Yet, they sold reloads (which were pretty crappy, I might add) at the counter.

I stopped going there and if anyone asks, I tell them not to go there. They want $13.00 for a 50 ct. box of .45 ACP. For that big of a rip, I'd rather drive a few miles further and not give that place the satisfaction of ripping me off.

I saw one range that said "American ammo only."

Of the thousands of Wolf rounds I fired, I have not had a single failure to feed or failure to eject.

No_Brakes23
October 7, 2005, 05:24 PM
They don't let you use WWB, but they let you use UMC?

They are usually about the same price at my Wally World.

Both are filthy-shooting rounds, but I have nary a problem with either one.

One of the local gun shop guys says WWB in .40S&W gives him problems, but only in his CZ75B.


Oh yeah, as an edit, I think the rule is lame, but their range, their rules. Vote with your wallet or deal with it.

Moonclip
October 7, 2005, 05:24 PM
I hate getting involved with these threads but as always mentioned, if you do not like it, don't go. The business owner will have to modify his policy if need be, or go under.

Never heard of a WWB ban but many local ranges ban Wolf and Blazer for "safety".The real reason is so they don't ave to sort range brass and so they can recycle/reload the premium brass cases. I actually know a range that allows NO OUTSIDE AMMO, even in your own gun! Still in business too!

The search thing bothers me, but it's not like you have to let them, I've even been to ranges that make you let them inspect your guns! They are doing the search for a reason though, I think it's pretty cheesy when people try to break the range rules. One of the worst I think is sneaking in extra ammo to use in a range rental.

I saw mentioned once to but a can of gold spray paint to make steel case rounds look like brass when they are being ejected!

sumpnz
October 7, 2005, 05:31 PM
I've chrono'd a fair amount of WWB harball (.40 and .45) and found it be more consistant than some "premium" ammo like Cor-Bon, Federal, and Speer defensive ammo. Velocity spread, and accuracy were much tighter. Had one round of .45 that had a buckeled case wall (bullet wasn't centered when seated) that caused an FTF, but that was the only problem round in probably 1000.

Far as I'm concerned there is no safety or reliability problem with WWB ammo. That range is, I think, banning it so they can sell higher priced ammo, not for any safety reasons.

OH25shooter
October 7, 2005, 05:39 PM
Is this range the only one locally? Does he have a captive membership? He must, because I believe most patrons would take their ammo, guns and business down the road. At my range, you have to use their ammo in rental guns. Plus, no ammo that will ruin the steel backstop. WWB is probably the most common target ammo used.

dolanp
October 7, 2005, 05:39 PM
If they are specifically against Blazer and WWB... it sounds like they are trying to get you to by their stuff by eliminating use of the cheapest ammo out there. I've never had a problem with either.

Brad Johnson
October 7, 2005, 05:43 PM
Used to live close to a range that limited shooters to a certain type of ammo (which, coincidentally, was the ammo they sold in-house at a ridiculous markup). Their business was in the crapper. A new manager came in and immediately ****-canned the the restrictions, and priced the ammo to at least be competitive with most local stores. Revenues dropped in the short term, but word got out and revenues jumped. The range has been running a steady gain ever since.

On their range brass they use a magnet to pick out the steelies. If you wanted free donuts and cinnamon rolls on Saturday, come in early and help cull aluminum and sort brass for caliber. It's amazing how much brass six or eight people can sort in half an hour (not to mention the amount of BS that went around! :D ).

Brad

countertop
October 7, 2005, 05:59 PM
What city is this in?

What range is it?

If you post those details, I bet we can find another range within reasonable distance for you.

MechAg94
October 7, 2005, 06:13 PM
Hmmmm. The indoor range I go to just requires brass cartridges with full metal jacket due to lead. They also don't like magnum rounds, but I don't shoot much of that anyway.
You just let your brass fall all over the floor and they sweep it up occasionally. $7 for as many guns as you want as long as you want, it doesn't bother me. I guess if you reload you wouldn't like that.

Souris
October 7, 2005, 07:08 PM
Buy a couple of boxes of UMC. Shoot them up and then repack your WWB in the UMC boxes.

Brad Johnson
October 7, 2005, 07:30 PM
What city is this in?

What range is it?

If you post those details, I bet we can find another range within reasonable distance for you.

It's gone now, and I'm gone from there. Last I heard the elderly owner died and the family sold the land to a developer.

We have a couple of decent ranges here in Lubbock, but they are pretty generic.

Brad

CZ-100
October 7, 2005, 08:01 PM
I have shot 1000s of WWB in .380, 9mm, .40S&W with NO problems

Moonclip
October 7, 2005, 08:14 PM
Souris, why do you feel it necessary to break the range rules instead of just not shooting there? I'm sure if you owned a business you would not appreciate people doing such things. However if you are going to employ that trick, why would one not just use Winchester boxes from the non WWB line and just put WWB ammo in it? ;)

I don't try to break range rules but once I was tempted to do something else. A range that is prety nice about 50miles from me has a real ahole as their reload ammo supplier.

He has a gift of making ranges kowtow to his insistance on calibers allowed to be shot/no steel/aluminum/ect. What I thought of doing to play havoc with his reloading equipment was find a source for brass cased BERDAN primed 9x19ammo and shoot a bunch of it there. I never did do it though, I guess I'm just too nice.

Mannlicher
October 7, 2005, 08:58 PM
find another range, or find a friend with a farm.

This range is ripping ya off. I don't hold it against them, its their business, and they can set what ever rules they like. I just would not favor them with my custom.

deker
October 7, 2005, 09:20 PM
I've been to a range near Philly that does the same. When I asked they claimes that WWB "jammed more people's guns" or somesuch. WWB has NEVER jcaused a FTAnything in my 1911, but rules is rules...So, I bought their Remington UMC. Which caused the first FTFs in my Dan Wesson...

I can understand no Al or steel casings because of sorting, etc. But I'm with Colt on this that it's just because they can't compete. I'll just load my WWB back into their UMC boxes if I ever go back :)

-d

DMK
October 7, 2005, 09:43 PM
Buy your ammo online. I buy S&B and brass cased CCI Blazer "Reloadable" for cheaper than Winchester at my local Wally World.

Standing Wolf
October 7, 2005, 10:59 PM
You need a new range.

Stevie-Ray
October 8, 2005, 12:16 AM
I'm thinking that maybe they can't be competitive with WW"s prices, and have just elected to ban it from their range.
Has anyone experienced anything similar at their range?The range I frequent allows rifles on some lanes, so AR-15s are common. They now don't allow you to bring in ANY .223 ammo. You MUST buy it there. Of course all they sell is Olympic, which is strangely out of stock most of the time, and, of course, all the real expensive stuff like the 15 to 20 dollar a box high end crap that makes you scream HOW MUCH??!

No_Brakes23
October 8, 2005, 12:42 AM
why would one not just use Winchester boxes from the non WWB line and just put WWB ammo in it? I was on a WinClean kick back in '99-'00 before I realized it used smaller primers. I don't like the loose nature of WWB, so I tend to break them open and put them in WinClean boxes anyway.

If you are trying to smuggle that way, be careful. Anyone who knows Win Ammo, knows that Win Clean cases say "NT" for non-toxic on the back and have a funky bullet shape.

pete f
October 8, 2005, 01:08 AM
just dump it all in a paper bag and say it is reloads.... no way to tell,
no range boy is going to be able to tell the diff between WWB and silver box winchester once it is out of the box.

as far as sorting the alum cases out an air table is the easiest
brass is heavy and stays on the table, alum is light and bounces on the air, and you just brush it away

ruger270man
October 8, 2005, 01:20 AM
just use some other good range ammo, but dont support them any more than you need to.. if there is another local range, go there instead

Akurat
October 8, 2005, 01:54 AM
Sounds to me like they don't like being undersold. If they can prevent you from buying inexpensive WWB or Blazer, the greater likelyhood that you will just decide to buy their ammo to avoid the hassle of bringing comparably priced ammo of your own.

HighVelocity
October 8, 2005, 07:33 AM
The indoor range I use sells WWB themselves. Not as cheap as walmart of course but it's the exact same ammo.

CajunBass
October 8, 2005, 07:50 AM
One range I go to charges me for range time. I can shoot any ammo I want to, with the exception of "no reloads" in their rental guns. I rented a Glock from them once. They asked what kind of ammo I had, I said WWB, they said that was fine.

The other range doesn't allow outside ammo at all, but doesn't charge for range time. It works out about the same price. I actually prefer that range to the first one. I think it's because it's attached to a really nice gun store.
:D

Geno
October 8, 2005, 08:07 AM
When I started getting this crap over ammo., I hit them REALLY well! I bought my next three handguns ($1,000.00 each) all three at ANOTHER dealer. Then, I promptly carried them in, shared my fine news arms, let them marvel at their LOST SALE, and bought their ammo.

I am now allowed to, ". . .shoot whatever (I) want. You're a good customer".

Right! Money talks. It seems to me that they didn't do THAT calculation (lost firearms sales) into the business papers. I now buy my favorite 50 rounds of Wolff ammo. for $4.50/box of 50 rounds and sweep up after myself.

Doc2005

imas
October 8, 2005, 09:08 AM
Thats funny. I've had reliability problems with every box of Remington UMC I've ever used. (22, 9MM, 45) Usually one Failure to Fire in every 50. But I've not had one failure in atleast 4k or 5k rounds of Winchester.

CWatson
October 8, 2005, 04:50 PM
It is all about the range making more $$. About 18 months ago my local range said no more Blazer ammo . I asked the guy who works there (related to owner) that I chat about guns with regularly and have shot with a couple times and he told me it was simply so they could sell more of the range reloads which cost more than Blazers bought at the local sporting goods stores. The range sold Blazers also but at over double the price,after I mentioned it was odd to sell ammo band at their own range they pulled them off the shelf.

CW

thorn726
October 8, 2005, 05:25 PM
so lemme get this straight- are the banned types of ammo steel rather than brass, and they are collecting the brass? that could be it right there.

if copper is at $1 a pound, brass must be around 50 cents.

tat cna probably add up pretty quick at a range, and if you toss a few non brass items in there, it screws up the scrap operation big time.

LAME. what would be more repsectable would be to have seperate barrels for brass and steel

nipprdog
October 8, 2005, 05:49 PM
I'm gonna call BS here.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

MountainPeak
October 9, 2005, 12:47 AM
Keep the ammo, dump the range!

The_Antibubba
October 9, 2005, 11:21 PM
While I agree that the rule is stupid and shortsighted, it is their range. You should find another place to shoot or fall in line. Shoot something less reliable. It'll allow you to practice your stoppage drills-FTF, FTE, stovepipes-or are you already utterly prepared for when your gun doesn't go "BANG!"? :scrutiny:

newfalguy101
October 10, 2005, 12:03 AM
use ziplock baggies and call it reloaded

nyresq
October 10, 2005, 02:03 AM
My range will not allow ANY Wolf ammo. This CAN cause problems.

why is that? I have used thousands of rounds of wolff ammo and never had any problems with both 9mm and .223.

what problems should one expect with wolff? :confused: :confused: :confused:

rayra
October 10, 2005, 02:08 AM
Contact the range owner. tell them in no uncertain terms what you thiink of their policy, emphasizing their poor business choice of it, and tell them you won't be shooting there any more. Neither will anyone you know.

They can only pull this kind of nonsense when people don't call them on it.

FotoTomas
October 10, 2005, 02:20 AM
The range closest to my house some years ago had a "store bought ammo only" rule. I went in found out about the rule and never went back. Some months later the range had a change of heart. Seems their range traffic went down a good bit. No matter...I will not go back. I have since moved closer to another range that I can deal with. Why spend money with people that have such poorly conceived policies. Makes me wonder about their business practices as a whole.

Missashot
October 10, 2005, 11:40 AM
Sounds as if the range is trying to make a profit on their ammo. I guess if they rent you a gun, then they may want a certain type ammo ran through it.
I would never go there becouse Winchester white box is the main staple of our handgun ammo supply.Even buy it for the .22 rifles. Never had any big problems with it.

Edmond
October 10, 2005, 11:46 AM
I can certainly understand it if you're renting their gun. One range I've been to states: Our range, our ammo. It is their gun so that is understandable. But if they were to not allow us to shoot outside ammo through our own guns, I would stop going there.

I probably wouldn't bring the issue up but I'd speak with my wallet. I'd also tell all my friends!

Moonclip
October 10, 2005, 05:19 PM
A WWB ban is also strange as Winchester offers a programs for ranges(not gun shops) to sell thier bulk ammo and get a discount doing so.

KriegHund
October 10, 2005, 05:24 PM
They just want an excuse to charge you more.

Carl N. Brown
October 12, 2005, 05:36 PM
Saw WWB (Winchester White Box generic ammo) referred to
as "Winnie White Box" and had visions of the cartoon "Bother
said Pooh as he chambered another round" and blew cola out
my nose. Maybe that is reason to bar WWB.

Colt
October 13, 2005, 04:45 PM
"Bother said Pooh as he chambered another round"

That's hilarious. I can just picture him in my mind, dropping a cartridge into the open bolt of a rifle...

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