Day Workers Thrust Virginia Town Into Illegal-Immigration Fight


PDA






Desertdog
October 8, 2005, 11:34 PM
Day Workers Thrust Virginia Town Into Illegal-Immigration Fight
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a8UhgJuWIz6Q&refer=us

On any weekday morning, as many as 60 Latino immigrants congregate near a 7-Eleven store in Herndon, Virginia, about 30 miles west of Washington. They are waiting for someone to drive up and offer them work for the day.

Smaller groups of the so-called day laborers gather at a McDonald's, a Shell station and a Mexican grocery. ``It has become somewhat of an eyesore and a bit of a nuisance, and a number of citizens have asked the town to do something about it,'' Herndon Mayor Michael O'Reilly said.

Herndon's response hasn't exactly doused the controversy: It plans to spend $175,000 to help build a shelter for the day laborers to wait in. The decision has triggered a lawsuit to block the plan and has made Herndon, a town of 22,000 far from the nation's borders, a microcosm of the growing U.S. debate over what to do about illegal immigrants.

``We think people are tired of the federal government not enforcing immigration laws, and we're furious that local governments aren't doing anything about it,'' said Tom Fitton, president of Judicial Watch, a self-described conservative educational foundation, which has sued the town.

Fitton said his Washington-based group may broaden the suit to include Fairfax County, which has approved $400,000 in funding for shelters in Herndon and two other communities in the county.

Shelter Advocates

Supporters say day-laborer sites protect the workers and provide a way for them to find jobs without hanging around private property and blocking traffic. While immigrant advocates concede that many workers may be in the U.S. illegally, they say it's up to employers to check their status.

``This is not a public benefit to undocumented workers,'' said Flavia Jimenez, immigration policy analyst at the Washington- based National Council of La Raza, the largest Hispanic advocacy group in the U.S. ``We've seen many benefits to the community as a whole and then to the workers themselves in having a center,'' she said.

The workers, almost all male, are used mainly by construction companies. Some are hired by individuals for such things as painting and yard work.

Dozens of other cities have established shelters to deal with the day-labor phenomenon, according to the National Day Laborer Organizing Network in Los Angeles. Jupiter, Florida, last month approved what will be the first government-sponsored day- laborer site in Palm Beach County.

Herndon Plan

Under the Herndon plan, approved by a 5-2 council vote in August, the town would contribute its money for a shelter on the parking lot of what is now a temporary police headquarters. A coalition of faith-based groups called Project Hope and Harmony would operate the site. Workers caught soliciting at other locations would be charged with trespassing.

Providing the funds is legal and allows the town to regulate day laborers without violating their constitutional rights of assembly and free speech, said Mayor O'Reilly, who voted in favor of the shelter.

U.S. Representative Tom Tancredo, a Colorado Republican, is among those who disagree. The proposed Herndon facility and others like it are ``like a hypocrisy,'' he said in an interview. Cities and states are supposed to help the federal government enforce the law, ``and yet here are these sites, some with illegal immigrants, on public land.''

Tancredo, who said he may enter the presidential primaries in 2008 to draw attention to the immigration issue, has introduced a bill that would prevent cities with such shelters from getting federal money for homeland security. He said the bill has 204 supporters in Congress.

Governors' Race

The local newspaper, the Herndon Times, has been peppered with letters from readers on the matter. The shelter ``has to be established,'' Ruth Tatlock of Herndon wrote in August, or the scattered gatherings will continue, ``the last thing anybody wants.'' Nathan Muller, of nearby Sterling, wrote the same month that the center would subtract $50,000 to $100,000 from the value of nearby homes, citing ``some local Realtors.''

The issue has surfaced in this year's gubernatorial election in Virginia. The Republican candidate, former Attorney General Jerry Kilgore, said in a statement in August that the Herndon and other proposed centers ``reward illegal behavior.'' Kilgore didn't return calls seeking comment.

His opponent, Democratic Lieutenant Governor Tim Kaine, said in an interview that Kilgore is politicizing the issue and that it's up to Herndon and other towns to ``figure out what the answer is.''

`Good Policy'

The Herndon debate isn't unique. The city council of Hoover, Alabama, a Birmingham suburb, in August terminated a contract allowing faith-based groups to operate a day-laborer site in a municipal building, following complaints that many workers were gathering in front of the center. It opened in 2003.

Project Hope and Harmony plans to have its Herndon shelter up and running by December. The group's permit allows for as many as 150 people to gather daily. The site also will offer English classes to the workers, said Bill Threlkheld, the group's director.

``Project Hope and Harmony feels like we're in the limits of the law and it's good public policy,'' Threlkheld said. ``We already have a day-labor site in Herndon and it's not a very organized site,'' he said, referring to the 7-Eleven.

While others debate the matter, day laborers such as Alex Rodas, waiting outside the 7-Eleven, say the issue for them is simple. ``We just want one place to find work,'' he said.



To contact the reporter on this story:
Courtney Schlisserman in Washington at cschlisserma@bloomberg.net.

If you enjoyed reading about "Day Workers Thrust Virginia Town Into Illegal-Immigration Fight" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Standing Wolf
October 8, 2005, 11:48 PM
Give them free money, and they will show up. Amazing, isn't it?

Desertdog
October 9, 2005, 12:07 AM
Here we have what is commonly called an employment office. Woder why they don't try for a job at the towns employment office. :confused:
Sounds like a way to solve the problem to me. Also, it should already be in operation. :evil:

Moparmike
October 10, 2005, 01:01 AM
If they are here illegally, they should congregate inside the nearest INS office to await deportation. It is a violation of a federal statute, and should be punished accordingly.



But I ain't holdin' my breath. :cuss:

Jammer Six
October 10, 2005, 01:08 AM
We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border. :cool:

Camp David
October 10, 2005, 08:01 AM
Since I live very close to Herndon, this issue impacts me... my thoughts:

We cannot sustain illegal immigration... when the low paying jobs run out and people don't hire these illegals, they will turn to crime to survive. Thus, Herndon should not be subsidizing illegal behavior by encouraging it. The town is wrong. Further, illegal aliens make a mockery of those that applied legally for access and citizenship. The town is wrong. These illegal aliens should be rounded up and send back where they came from. Now.

Kharn
October 10, 2005, 08:57 AM
They should erect the pavillion with one condition: an INS officer be present at all times. :evil:

Kharn

Biker
October 10, 2005, 09:05 AM
An intersting note: La Raza translates to "The Race" and their motto is, "For those of The Race, everything. For those not of The Race, nothing".
Maybe if The Klan translated their hateful rhetoric into Spanish, they would be accepted as readily as La Raza.

Heeeeeyyyyy Jammer! Do you hire illegals? Hmmmmm?

Biker ;)

NCP24
October 10, 2005, 09:31 AM
Oh great! Public housing for illegal immigrants- what’s next?

Lupinus
October 10, 2005, 09:39 AM
That is retarded. A shelter for them to wait in payed for with taxpayer dollars???

Don't incourage them send them back home.

Put the military on the boarder and make them cross legaly like all previous immigrints to this country had to do.

TarpleyG
October 10, 2005, 10:06 AM
The city of Plano, Texas did the same exact thing back in '90 or so. Mexicans were hanging out on a particular corner at a convenience/beer store and I guess the city decided that an immigrant pick up site would move them. Beats me why they didn't send in squad cars daily and haul them off for being an illegal (and yes, I'd bet the rest of my paychecks for the year at least 90% were illegal).

Anyone seen that video clip of the guy that goes and picks some of these illegals up like he needs workers the drives them to the INS office? Funny stuff.

Greg

Lupinus
October 10, 2005, 10:10 AM
lol

I'd love to do that

"Hey buddy hop in the truck bed, 50 bucks to help today"

..."Surpise!"

Oh...that would be cruel

I love it :evil: :evil: :evil:

HighVelocity
October 10, 2005, 10:16 AM
Supporters say day-laborer sites protect the workers and provide a way for them to find jobs without hanging around private property and blocking traffic. While immigrant advocates concede that many workers may be in the U.S. illegally, they say it's up to employers to check their status.

Ok, how is this any different from building a shelter for crack dealers to stand under so when it rains their rocks won't get wet? :fire:
Endorsing illegal activity, plain and simple.

Lupinus
October 10, 2005, 10:29 AM
Immigration is needed.

They do do work most domestic people do not want to do. And certianly at a pay rate that most american's will not (or cant afford to) work for.

But illegal activity need's to stop.

I'd say close the boarder's and set up immigration center's. Immigrint's in the past had to go through place's like elis island in new york.

For my vote. Wall and militerize the boarder. And set up Ellis Island type immigration center's. Make them get a clear bill of health. Get a record on where they are from and where they are going. Check who they are. Issue them an immigrint ID card with their picture and a "zone" of where they are supposed to be. And send them on their way.

As for the zone I mentioned. Certian zone's should be set up and besed on where the immigrint plan's to go issue him into that zone. If a zone get's to saturated clsoe it off and tell them they can't go there. Also figure out wht type's of income tax they should be subject to.

Keep a database. If they commit a crime, they are deported and if they try to come back in are denied entry. If they come here and are found outside their zone without getting a clearence for it, they get a hearing and if they don't have a good reason are deported, and their name goes into the restricted database and refused any future entry.

roo_ster
October 10, 2005, 02:05 PM
The city of Plano, Texas did the same exact thing back in '90 or so.

My neighbor calls them "good Catholic boys." :rolleyes:

Personally, I refuse to hire them. Yep, for not being a slimeball by hiring illegals, it took me longer to build my fence. I also have to mow my own lawn. Oh, Great Mother! The tragedy! How will we survive, if we have to dirty our own hands at manual labor?

I learned a lesson though, from building my own fence as well as watching the illegals work for my neighbor around his house. I can rent labor-saving devices to make up for strong backs & weak minds and end up with a better product...for less money than hiring illegals to do the heavy lifting*. That is how my front yard picket fence will be built, as well as my irrigation system & backyard landscaping.

Frankly, I produce much better product (fencing, landscaping, etc) than I have ever seen an illegal produce.

* Besides, I always would have to do the heavy lifting, anyway, as most illegals are so dang small (malnutrition during childhood?) I took pity on my illegal-hiring neighbor one day & got all his shingles on his roof for him. The illegals could not (or would not :scrutiny: ) sling shingles over their shoulders & go up the ladder, while my neighbor was recently out of the hospital & still recovering. I got my neigbor's pickup parked right under the eave & stood on the tail gate, had the Mario brothers team up on a bundle of shingles to hand them to me, & I slung those bad boys up onto his roof. I had to rest every 10-15 miuntes or so, as I am not in the aerobic shape I used to be.

Size does matter.

longeyes
October 10, 2005, 02:05 PM
"We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border."

And here I thought it was that we get stronger every time Jammer Six posts...

Slowly but sure we are endorsing the idea that if you are here--no matter how you got here--you are entitled. That means not only de facto citizenship, it means rights, privileges, and welfare. Unfortunately, we have a whole stratum of American society that is complicit in this atrocity. The answer is nothing less than political militancy, starting by throwing out all elected officials who refuse to protect our borders and enforce the law, then cracking down on bureaucrats who won't do their jobs, and finally by boycotting all businesses that validate, in any way, shape, or form, illegal immigration.

longeyes
October 10, 2005, 02:10 PM
There's another issue here that is bound to become inflammatory and divisive, viz., the fact that a lot of Christian churches appear to place their spiritual beliefs above the law, supporting illegals at all turns out of "compassion" and "humanitarianism." Catholic organizations are also at the forefront of this, willingly aiding immigrants in violation of the law because they share the same faith (or the same ethnicity). If this is what we mean by faith-based initiatives then I'm against them.

Biker
October 10, 2005, 02:11 PM
My hat's off to ya, jfruser. That's *exactly* the attitude we need in this country at this point in time. The popular mantra to day is, "They're only doing jobs that Americans won't do". BS! We did them just fine before the flood gates were opened. Ya know what they say...Repeat a lie often enough and it will come to be believed. Here's to ya...
Biker
:D

wingman
October 10, 2005, 02:20 PM
[QUOTE]Frankly, I produce much better product (fencing, landscaping, etc) than I have ever seen an illegal produce. Quote:

Agreed, if we cannot do some hands on work in this country then we deserve
to fail and sad to say that is what I see happening. The very idea of importing
workers for those that won't work is absurd, so in fact we the taxpayer pay
for one man not working and subsidize the other that was imported, yeah, that will work. :fire:

NCP24
October 10, 2005, 03:03 PM
A third world country is the only thing illegal immigrants can produce- just take a look at their own. Say goodbye to the USA and say hello to little Mexico.
The answer is nothing less than political militancy, starting by throwing out all elected officials who refuse to protect our borders and enforce the law, then cracking down on bureaucrats who won't do their jobs, and finally by boycotting all businesses that validate, in any way, shape, or form, illegal immigration.

Camp David
October 10, 2005, 03:12 PM
A third world country is the only thing illegal immigrants can produce- just take a look at their own. Say goodbye to the USA and say hello to little Mexico.

Exactly... I am most concerned about the crime arising from illegal immigration... those that cannot secure employment will be forced into crime for sustenance... And what do they fear? The punishments on this side of the border are far less than they would face on the southern side. The risk quite less. Murders, rapes, assaults, larceny, theft, etc. etc. etc. will all be amplified by the percentage of illegal aliens not able to secure employment. Additionally, since they are illegal aliens, it will be far harder for local law enforcement to make a legal case against such aliens; their name is absent from most criminal databases: they roam free among us... only the ones interested in making a honest life here are willing to go through the legal hoops to become a registered citizen.

Scary? Absolutely! :mad:

roo_ster
October 10, 2005, 03:30 PM
I was born in Iowa, as were my folks. There weren't too many (any?) illegals to pay to do your dirty work, so the folks did it there own dang selves. My grandparents had a hired man after they bought some more land to help with the farm, but he was a local guy.

Whenever I read, "Illegals do the jobs Americans won't do," I know I am hearing from either someone ignorant or disingenuous. In Iowa, toilets were scrubbed, chicken houses were cleaned, and hogs were speyed all without the benefit of illegals' labor. Those tasks still get done, today, in places like Durant & Bennett Iowa, where nary an illegal has been sighted.

NCP24
October 10, 2005, 03:33 PM
Exactly... I am most concerned about the crime arising from illegal immigration... those that cannot secure employment will be forced into crime for sustenance... And what do they fear? Fear!!! The only thing they fear is not being able to run across the border when they get caught, or maybe fear they won’t earn a profit on the drugs they’re smuggling into our country. We need reform and we need it now!

rick_reno
October 10, 2005, 03:39 PM
The shelter should be a bus - load them into the "shelter" and take them to the border.

Something I do wonder about is with unemployment in this country at 5.1% (Oct 8th, Bureau of Labor Statistics) why aren't U.S. citizens showing up to get these jobs?

Kharn
October 10, 2005, 03:46 PM
Catholic organizations are also at the forefront of this, willingly aiding immigrants in violation of the law because they share the same faith (or the same ethnicity).Thats one reason I hate going to Mass with my parents every time I go home to visit, they even have an English/Spanish Mass (with the Gospel and Homily being repeated in Spanish since our pastor became bilingual after the Mexicans came to town; this isnt in Texas or anywhere, they're in Maryland). The church even runs their school bus to whereever the "migrant workers" live to give them a ride to Mass every Sunday, and advertises the bilingual service all over the place. Everyone knows they're illegal, but nobody will do anything about it and they're welcomed with open arms regardless of legality.

The one that really cheeses me off is at Christmas time, when we're asked to pray for the "migrant workers" safe return to Mexico so they can celebrate the holidays with their families and then good luck on their attempt to cross back into the US. :fire:

In a just world, the INS would do their job and follow the bus on Sundays to find out where they're hiding. :fire:

Kharn

Basura Blanca
October 10, 2005, 03:51 PM
[...]the fact that a lot of Christian churches appear to place their spiritual beliefs above the law, supporting illegals at all turns out of "compassion" and "humanitarianism." [...] If this is what we mean by faith-based initiatives then I'm against them.

But is that argument pervasive -or, at least in your opinion?

I agree that "a lot of Christian churches appear to place their spiritual beliefs above the law". Look at how Christian conservative thinking has suppressed the civil rights of those that are "gay".

longeyes
October 10, 2005, 05:47 PM
I was born in Iowa, as were my folks.

I'm far away from Iowa but what I hear is the farmers' kids are going to the city and the farms are de facto being worked by immigrants (mostly illegal). The next step will be ownership, legally or de facto. Problem? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on whether they really become Americans.

Basura Blanca,

I'm pointing to an issue that is indeed a sticky one. Religious thought and libertarian/capitalist thought diverge on some rather key things in America.

cuchulainn
October 11, 2005, 09:19 AM
First off -- on the point of this thread -- I think it's wrong of Herndon to build the shelter. As well, I'm just as anti-illegal-immigration as the next guy, but I must respond to the thread drift towards Church bashing longeyes: There's another issue here that is bound to become inflammatory and divisive, viz., the fact that a lot of Christian churches appear to place their spiritual beliefs above the law. I assume then that if the USA someday bans all gun ownership that you'll suppress your beliefs in the RKBA and not only turn in all your guns but also snitch on your buddies who haven't turned in their guns.

Oh, horrors! The Church is showing compassion to law breakers and sinners. Kharn: Everyone knows they're illegal, but nobody will do anything about it and they're welcomed with open arms regardless of legality.Do you expect the church to start checking passports at the doors -- or should the priests ban all poor Hispanics from Mass because "everyone knows" they're all illegal? Kharn: The church even runs their school bus to whereever the "migrant workers" live to give them a ride to Mass every Sunday, and advertises the bilingual service all over the place. There are millions of legal Hispanics immigrants in the D.C. area, but you know for sure -- based on a couple trips to Mass when visiting the folks -- that all the people from that neighborhood are all illegal. Yeah, the church should stop that bus even if many of the people in that neighborhood are legals. Heaven forbid that some illegals might -- dare I utter it lest it's true -- get to Church. Hide the children!

And Mass in Spanish??!!! :eek: For the millions of legal Hispanics? Horrors! Kharn: The one that really cheeses me off is at Christmas time, when we're asked to pray for the "migrant workers" safe return to Mexico so they can celebrate the holidays with their families and then good luck on their attempt to cross back into the US. You're kidding, right? At your folks' Church, they pray for the safety of all people regardless of their sins or law breaking. Yeah even though some of the "migrant workers" are legal, it's better to pray for none of them lest some of those illegals get covered by the prayer. Or, better yet, maybe the prayers should have caveats. "...except for the illegals, Lord. Smite them, Oh Heavenly Father." That should do it. God wouldn't get confused then.

DRZinn
October 11, 2005, 09:35 AM
I'm not a praying man, but it sounds good to me.

NCP24
October 11, 2005, 10:38 AM
"Republican gubernatorial candidate Jerry W. Kilgore said Monday that Virginia should not pay for centers to help day laborers, calling them the latest examples of society rewarding illegal immigrants.

"Kilgore said the creation of publicly financed gathering areas such as the one proposed in Herndon undermines the rule of law and "denigrates" citizens who immigrated to the country legally.

"'We face a fundamental decision in Virginia,' Kilgore told reporters in a conference call. 'Will we reward illegal behavior with hard-earned dollars from law-abiding citizens? I say the answer to this question should be an easy one: No."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2005/08/09/DI2005080900549.html Just say “NO” to rewarding illegal immigrants.

Workforce Redux
by Doug Koelemay

Some Virginians were astounded in early December at news reports that concluded 44 percent of new jobs created in Virginia from 1990 to 2001 had been filled by immigrants.

They shouldn't have been surprised, but they should feel chagrined that Virginia businesses, political leaders and educational institutions couldn't respond faster and more efficiently to secure more of these new job opportunities for Virginians.

According to a new report from the Joint Legislative Audit and Review Commission (JLARC), regrettably, the Commonwealth still is not in a position to do much about it. New proposals from Gov. Mark R. Warner may change that.

More than 13 million immigrants came to the United States in the last decade, according to a Center for Labor Market Studies at Northeastern University in Boston.

Eight million joined the labor force, supplementing American workers in wage-sensitive jobs, but more impressively helping expand employment in highly skilled jobs that pay high wages, such as in the technology industry. The analysis shows nearly one in four held a technical, managerial or professional job.

Immigrants also had an above-average share of the nation's jobs in engineering, computer science and the physical sciences.

http://www.baconsrebellion.com/Issues/12-09-02/Workforce_redux.htm Immigrants filled 44 percent of new jobs created from 1990 to 2001, and filled one in four technical, managerial or professional job, plus had an above-average share of the nation's jobs in engineering, computer science and the physical sciences.

WOW! Cheap labor goes along ways! Mexico should be proud - Just say “Yes” to rewarding illegal immigrants.

longeyes
October 11, 2005, 11:11 AM
"I assume then that if the USA someday bans all gun ownership that you'll suppress your beliefs in the RKBA and not only turn in all your guns but also snitch on your buddies who haven't turned in their guns.

Oh, horrors! The Church is showing compassion to law breakers and sinners. "

My belief in gun ownership has nothing to do with my awareness that certain religious organizations in America tend to forget to render to Caesar. We do have laws hereabouts that apply to all citizens and residents of this fair land. I expect Churches to abide by those laws and to instruct their members to abide by them, not promote policies that "transcend" civil and criminal law.

I don't want to make this a religious issues; it is certain church organizations that are doing that, either out of what I see as misguided idealism or perhaps, less nobly, merely to expand their constituency. Religious organizations that are found actively breaking the law should lose their tax exemption.

longeyes
October 11, 2005, 11:16 AM
"I assume then that if the USA someday bans all gun ownership that you'll suppress your beliefs in the RKBA and not only turn in all your guns but also snitch on your buddies who haven't turned in their guns.

Oh, horrors! The Church is showing compassion to law breakers and sinners. "

The irony here is that gun owners have received scant support and endorsement from religious organizations. Maybe they have forgotten that self-defense and defense against tyranny is an inalienable, God-given right? I believe that some religious groups have a problem with the concept of self-defense and others have themselves, I'm sorry, tyrannical leanings.

cuchulainn
October 11, 2005, 11:20 AM
The irony here is that gun owners have received scant support and endorsement from religious organizations. Maybe they have forgotten that self-defense and defense against tyranny is an inalienable, God-given right? I believe that some religious groups have a problem with the concept of self-defense and others have themselves, I'm sorry, tyrannical leanings. You are right that (some) churches are bad on the RKBA. That doesn't change the fact that you're out of line for berating churches that <gasp> show compassion to sinners and law breakers (regardless of the law).

WOOOOOOOSHHHHHHHHHH. That was my point going right past your left ear.

cuchulainn
October 11, 2005, 11:23 AM
My belief in gun ownership has nothing to do with my awareness that certain religious organizations in America tend to forget to render to Caesar. Therefore I expect you to "render unto Ceasar" if the USA bans all guns.

(Hey, that point came around for a second pass. Don't miss it this time.)

cuchulainn
October 11, 2005, 11:29 AM
Religious organizations that are found actively breaking the law should lose their tax exemption. If they are breaking the law, yes. (Within reason, of course. Letting kids drink wine is breaking the law, but we're talking about more serious crimes.)

What laws do you think they are breaking? Surely you are not upset that they're letting illegals come to Church (that's Kharn's complaint).

So what laws are you talking about? What's you're evidence?

longeyes
October 11, 2005, 11:34 AM
Right now guns are legal. When they're not get back to me. We have some time left to work out this amazing paradox.

Compassion is a good thing--up to a point. When it becomes a form of unctuous suicide, well, I'm agin' it, sorry. I think evolved nations are a balance of compassion and self-protecting strength. It is easy to be compassionate when you are in effect handing the bill for your moral enlightenment to those around you.

I am out of line, you're right, as were all the Americans, even before there was an America, who said "No, enough!" I'd like to believe the impulse that drove them was anti-tyranny, even though the irony of history is that some anti-tyrants arent't that open-minded themselves.

Don't assume I am attacking all religion because I point to what I see as inconsistencies, contradictions, or self-defeating policies in the actions of some churches and some church members.

I welcome your response, though; it shows that there is indeed a wellspring of controversy inside our national commitment to the power of faith.

DelayedReaction
October 11, 2005, 11:38 AM
Immigrants filled 44 percent of new jobs created from 1990 to 2001, and filled one in four technical, managerial or professional job, plus had an above-average share of the nation's jobs in engineering, computer science and the physical sciences.

Engineering, computer science, and physical sciences require advanced degrees. You'll be hard pressed to find an illegal immigrant with a bachelor of science, but there are plenty of legal immigrants who are willing to work hard and study hard in order to compete in today's job market.

If an organization wishes to aid a human being who also happens to be a criminal, I have no trouble with that so long as they REPORT THE PRESENCE OF THE CRIMINAL at the same time. Of course, given the stellar way INS is handling deportation it wouldn't matter.

cuchulainn
October 11, 2005, 11:43 AM
Compassion is a good thing--up to a point. When it becomes a form of unctuous suicide, well, I'm agin' it, sorry. I think evolved nations are a balance of compassion and self-protecting strength. It is easy to be compassionate when you are in effect handing the bill for your moral enlightenment to those around you. Again, I ask you:

1) What laws are the churches breaking with their supposedly misguided compassion?

2) What's your evidence?Right now guns are legal. When they're not get back to me. So you won't address the point of whether you'll suppress your beliefs and follow a gun ban to the tee. "Render unto Ceasar" and all that. OK, I'll give you a pass and let that point drop.

longeyes
October 11, 2005, 11:45 AM
We are talking about ILLEGAL immigrants here, not LEGAL immigrants.

The groups I'm referencing do not see "migrants" as criminals, they see them as present and future parishioners.

The disarmament movement, both micro and macro, is heavily fueled by ardent "believers." That's not exactly unexpected given the general thrust of the New Testament. How defense of liberty and self-defense can be reconciled with the gospels of love and compassion I will leave to clever theologians.

NCP24
October 11, 2005, 11:47 AM
How the heck did that happen? Just over look this one.

cuchulainn
October 11, 2005, 11:56 AM
We are talking about ILLEGAL immigrants here, not LEGAL immigrants. I never suggested otherwise. You and I probably are in close agreement about illegal immigration. We aren't in agreement about whether churches are breaking laws when showing illegal immigrants "compassion." The groups I'm referencing do not see "migrants" as criminals, they see them as present and future parishioners. Really? How do you know that?

Also, You've implied that churches are somehow breaking the law in the way they show compassion for illegals. For the third time:

1) What laws are churches breaking?

2) What's your evidence?The disarmament movement, both micro and macro, is heavily fueled by ardent "believers." That's not exactly unexpected given the general thrust of the New Testament. How defense of liberty and self-defense can be reconciled with the gospels of love and compassion I will leave to clever theologians. Wow. You really missed the point. Here, I'll spell it out.

A) You criticized churches for allegedly placing their beliefs above the law.

B) I gave you a scenario where you might be faced with choosing between your beliefs and the law -- a gun ban -- and asked you what you'd do.

Biker
October 11, 2005, 12:05 PM
It is against federal law to knowingly aid and abett an illegal alien. If forced to, I'll look it up again, but hopefully, someone without a dinosaur for a comp will.
Biker :)

NCP24
October 11, 2005, 12:12 PM
Engineering, computer science, and physical sciences require advanced degrees. You'll be hard pressed to find an illegal immigrant with a bachelor of science, but there are plenty of legal immigrants who are willing to work hard and study hard in order to compete in today's job market. According to Koelemay

The Northern Virginia Technology Council and Virginia's Center for Innovative Technology found in a survey of technology companies that 19,000 technology jobs that paid twice the average wage of other jobs in Virginia were going unfilled. Pressure began to build on the federal government to boost the number of H1-B professional visas issued to foreign workers, something the federal government eventually did. Which goes back to “Some Virginians should feel chagrined that Virginia businesses, political leaders and educational institutions couldn't respond faster and more efficiently to secure more of these new job opportunities for Virginians.”

cuchulainn
October 11, 2005, 12:16 PM
It is against federal law to knowingly aid and abett an illegal alien. If forced to, I'll look it up again, but hopefully, someone without a dinosaur for a comp will. Yes, I know that -- and I agreed (in post #35) that if Churches are actually breaking the law, they should be held legally responsible.

However, in this thread the only supposed wrong-doings by churches that I've seen alleged (by Kharn) are:

A) Sending church buses into neighborhoods suspected of containing illegals.
B) Letting people who might be illegals come to church.
C) Having Mass in Spanish
D) Praying for people who might be illegals.

None of those qualify as aiding and abetting. (And to be fair, Kharn isn’t claiming those actions are illegal).

Longeyes still hasn't given any evidence about how the compassion speaks of involves illegal acts.

longeyes
October 11, 2005, 12:30 PM
Compassion's not illegal. I'm not even arguing that it should be, in case you're wondering.

There are groups going beyond compassion and actively involved in helping illegal aliens come to the U.S. and find refuge here. Don't tell me there aren't. I suppose it would be too much to ask churches to note who among their flocks are here illegally and report them. That would, of course, violate their principles of putting their religious and expand-the-membership beliefs first.

If you don't see a problem, okay, you don't. A lot of other people do.

What I said about the conflict inherent in self-defense versus pacifism holds. It's not going away.

I believe that self-defense and defense against tyranny are inherent and inalienable human rights more primal than "government." They are grounded in my sense of what it means, ideally, to be fully human. Would I disarm myself or abet general disarming? No. I can justify that on libertarian grounds without reaching out to specific religious beliefs that too oten get entangled in sectarian issues.

cuchulainn
October 11, 2005, 12:42 PM
Double post. Deleted by cuchulainn

cuchulainn
October 11, 2005, 12:43 PM
longeyes: There are groups going beyond compassion and actively involved in helping illegal aliens come to the U.S. and find refuge here. Don't tell me there aren't. Actually, I never claimed one way or the other. I even agreed (in post #35) that if churches are breaking the law, they should be held legally responsible -- and thus I acknowledged the possibility that some churches are committing illegal acts related to immigration.

I have simply asked you to support your allegations. For the fourth time:

1) What laws are churches breaking?

2) What's your evidence?longeyes: I believe that self-defense and defense against tyranny are inherent and inalienable human rights more primal than "government." They are grounded in my sense of what it means, ideally, to be fully human. Would I disarm myself or abet general disarming? No. I can justify that on libertarian grounds without reaching out to specific religious beliefs that too oten get entangled in sectarian issues. Translation, "Other people are bad when they place their beliefs above the law, but I'm good and brave." :rolleyes:

Of course, you haven't shown that the churches actually are placing their beliefs above the law -- so you're falling doubly flat.

longeyes
October 11, 2005, 01:04 PM
Cuch',

Obviously I struck a nerve. Ice usually helps in cases like that.

I see no parallel between the primal right of self-defense/defense 'gainst tyranny and encouraging illegal aliens to take root in America. Not all government-defying beliefs are the same, you know. You do know, don't you? I am no better or braver than anyone else but I am definitely not aiding and abetting illegal immigration, either by word or deed.

Harboring illegal aliens is, I believe, a crime. I'll leave it to the authorities to do the investigations, not that in this current social climate I expect them to. I don't work for ICE but I guess they have caught the germ of "compassion," as you put it, since it's obvious they choose not to look in plain sight for the people they purport to be trying to stop from immigrating.

I can see why "religious" discussions are actively discouraged on this forum.

cuchulainn
October 11, 2005, 01:12 PM
longeyes: Harboring illegal aliens is, I believe, a crime. I'll leave it to the authorities to do the investigations, not that in this current social climate I expect them to. Thank you for admitting that you have no evidence to back up your allegations. Maybe churches are committing illegal acts. Maybe they're not. But you don't really know. longeyes: I see no parallel between the primal right of self-defense/defense 'gainst tyranny and encouraging illegal aliens to take root in America. The point is that you have a double standard.

A) When others place their beliefs above the law = bad!
B) When longeyes places his beliefs above the law = good, cuz those beliefs are primal!longeyes: I can see why "religious" discussions are actively discouraged on this forum. This isn't really a religious discussion. You alleged illegal activity by organizations (that happen to be religious), and I've asked you to support your allegations with evidence. I'd ask for the same evidence if you leveled your allegations against the ACLU, the NRA, the Boy Scouts, Wal-Mart, the Libertarian Party or the Oak Street Cat Lovers Club.

You failed to supply evidence. You wrongly made allegations of criminal activity without having the facts to back up those allegations.

Kharn
October 11, 2005, 01:22 PM
Cuchulainn:
D) Praying for people who might be illegals.We were specifically asked to pray that they were not mistreated by their coyotes and others they met during their journey one year. I doubt many legal migrant workers deal with coyotes. :uhoh:
And the migrant ones quickly leave the hall every time one of the men in the men's club shows up at by-donation dinners (he wears his FBI baseball cap everywhere), while those of Mexican descent that live in the area year-round smile and wave at the guy. Why would legal workers be afraid of anyone related to the police? :scrutiny:

Kharn

Jammer Six
October 11, 2005, 01:25 PM
I'd ask for the same evidence if you leveled your allegations against the ACLU, the NRA, the Boy Scouts, Wal-Mart, the Libertarian Party or the Oak Street Cat Lovers Club.
There's an Oak Street Cat Lovers Club? :what:

longeyes
October 11, 2005, 01:27 PM
Uhboy.

No, you're right, there are no church groups actively encouraging illegal immigrants to come here. There are no illegal aliens being knowingly fed, clothed, housed, educated, and spiritually ministered to by church groups in America. You're right, it's my imagination. (Where's that roll-your-eyes emoticon when I need it?)

Do I have a double standard? No. I have standards. As I said, there is no equivalency in my mind between the primal right of self-defense and defense against tyranny and embracing illegal immigration. You call that a double-standard, I call that careful intellectual discrimination. So be it.

longeyes
October 11, 2005, 01:32 PM
"This isn't really a religious discussion."

Yeah, it is. We know that various race-based immigrant advocacy groups are doing their damnednest to aid, abet, and protect illegal immigration. La Raza might be an example. Any faith-based orgs involved? Ask around, check it out, esse.

I think you need to take this up with our esteemed Attorney General, one Alberto Gonsalez. No doubt he has all the information needed to prove my point buried somewhere in his closet at work.

cuchulainn
October 11, 2005, 04:51 PM
longeyes: No, you're right, there are no church groups actively encouraging illegal immigrants to come here. There are no illegal aliens being knowingly fed, clothed, housed, educated, and spiritually ministered to by church groups in America. You're right, it's my imagination. Once again, I never claimed anything one way or the other. I simply asked you to provide evidence to support your allegations of criminal activity by churches. You have not.

If you had provided evidence, I would have promptly thanked you and acknowledged that you were correct. longeyes: As I said, there is no equivalency in my mind between the primal right of self-defense and defense against tyranny and embracing illegal immigration. Right, your values are worth placing above the law, but other people's values are not.

Funny thing: Personally, I agree with you that the RKBA is worth breaking the law over, but immigration is not. But you’ve utterly missed my point. I haven’t said those two acts are equivalent (I don't think they are) – I’ve simply questioned how you can criticize people's willingness to break the law to stand up for their beliefs and then turn around and say that you’d break the law to stand up for your beliefs.

Of course, you 've failed/refused to provide any evidence of law breaking, so it's probably a moot point.Kharn: We were specifically asked to pray that they were not mistreated by their coyotes and others they met during their journey one year. I doubt many legal migrant workers deal with coyotes. You know what? I too probably would have balked at making that prayer, or at least raised my eyebrows. But if that's the worst going on at churches, you'll have to excuse my lack of indignation.Jammer Six: There's an Oak Street Cat Lovers Club? Yes, they're headquartered on Elm Avenue and meet every second Tuesday on Pine Road to feast on cats. I didn't say how they love them, did I?

Jammer Six
October 11, 2005, 07:37 PM
Yes, they're headquartered on Elm Avenue and meet every second Tuesday on Pine Road to feast on cats. I didn't say how they love them, did I?\
Nope, you didn't.

I'm always looking for fresh reactive targets, and cats never seem to last very long.

Fletchette
October 11, 2005, 08:26 PM
We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border.

Is there any logic to this statement or are you just trying to pull someone's leg?

c_yeager
October 11, 2005, 08:28 PM
Give them free money, and they will show up. Amazing, isn't it?

News Flash!!

The people standing at the day-labor site are WORKING for a living ;)

Thats kinda the point. i dont really care if our glorious and righteous government gives a person the appropriate piece of paper or not. My litmus test for "good americans" includes paying one's own way. Guess what, a lot of natural born Americans dont make the grade and a lot of 'wets' do. Its an easy system if you use it on an individual basis, it just makes it hard to generalize, so its no fun on the internet.

Biker
October 11, 2005, 08:30 PM
Jammer
Do you hire illegals?
Biker

pax
October 11, 2005, 08:34 PM
I'd say this one's descended far enough.

Closed.

pax

If you enjoyed reading about "Day Workers Thrust Virginia Town Into Illegal-Immigration Fight" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!