Debating morons, need help


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The Viking
October 9, 2005, 06:34 AM
OK, so at the moment I'm debating a moron on a swedish forum, where he claims that A) Mercury filled rounds are not a myth, and B) That a high velocity round (.50 BMG) merely passing you at a distance of a few inches will kill you/rip your arm/leg/head off.

So, therefor, I need the results witnessed by The Highroaders. I realize none of you are stupid, therefor the mercury filled bullet is likely untested, but I know several of you guys and gals have .50's. So come on, can you give me results from shooting .50 BMG on various targets?
Anything that will debunk the mercury filled bullets BS is appreciated too.

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alellis
October 9, 2005, 07:55 AM
At the risk of getting on your wrong side.

I think you could use your time much more constructively than debating these matters with people who don't really want to know.


al

tater_salad
October 9, 2005, 08:23 AM
Im going to assume .50BMG means .50cal heavy machine gun? In the military that is a common 'rumor' that if one of those rounds passes close enough to you but doesn't actually 'hit' you, you will still have some soft tissue damage. I say rumor because I've never personally witnessed it, so I can't say for sure. I know the 0331's (Marine machinegunners) toss that around though.

The Viking
October 9, 2005, 08:31 AM
I'm just looking for some (more) facts to throw in his face. But it looks like it might not be necessary, a bunch of other people have joined the fray :evil: :evil: :D :D

shermacman
October 9, 2005, 08:50 AM
Facts?!
We don't need no steenkin' facts!

Sleeping Dog
October 9, 2005, 09:03 AM
.50BMG means .50cal heavy machine gun?
"Browning Machine Gun", IIRC.

True, if one of these rounds passes close to you it will cause soft-tissue damage. Seeing a pile of un-fired rounds will cause blindness. Reading about the round will cause IQ points to fall away from brain cells. .50BMG is an accursed projectile.

Just kidding of course. A close shot, if it hits something near you, will likely cause bladder and sphincter malfunctions, resulting in a higher-than-normal laundry load. That's the only damage that "close" causes.

Regards.

stevelyn
October 9, 2005, 09:09 AM
Don't debate morons. It only makes your head hurt and the moron still remains a moron.

Byron Quick
October 9, 2005, 09:28 AM
I can't give specific instances, but I've heard of a few people who have survived being hit by a .50BMG.

Mercury bullets? They are real:D For I made some after reading "Day of the Jackal" when I was a teenager. The supposedly deadly explosive effect did not occur when tested on watermelons. Regular hunting ammo outperformed my admittedly jury rigged rounds. Looking back on it...it's a wonder I didn't hurt myself doing that idiot stunt. I probably did absorb some mercury.

I put some 200 grain .35 Remington rounds in the vise on a drill press and drilled into the bullet a preset distance. Then I put a drop of mercury in the hole. Sealed it with a dab of epoxy. After the epoxy dried, I used a small rasp and emery boards to fair up the epoxy to the original contours.

Mercury bullets are fiction dreamed up by an author who doesn't know much about firearms.

The Viking
October 9, 2005, 09:34 AM
Mercury bullets?:D They are real For I made some after reading "Day of the Jackal" when I was a teenager. The supposedly deadly explosive effect did not occur when tested on watermelons. Regular hunting ammo outperformed my admittedly jury rigged rounds. Looking back on it...it's a wonder I didn't hurt myself doing that idiot stunt. I probably did absorb some mercury.
You tested on watermelons, just like in The Day Of The Jackal? Care to tell more about the results? Remember what kind of bullets you modified, and what kind of ammo that performed better?

griz
October 9, 2005, 10:02 AM
How does a 50 punch holes in a paper target without shredding it?

On second thought, don't debate morons. It might be contagious.

JoeG52
October 9, 2005, 10:06 AM
Just don't.

Yanus
October 9, 2005, 10:07 AM
Never argue with a fool. It accomplishes nothing and it annoys the fool.

Yanus

Old Fuff
October 9, 2005, 10:18 AM
I think part of the problem is that in Sweden relatively few people have any actual experience and know little about firearms. What knowledge they have comes from fictional sources and questionable news media reports, but they believe it is true. The same could be said about some people in parts of the United Kingdom, or for that matter, the United States.

So why debate with such individuals? Well if the exchange is on a public forum it gives our side a chance to shine some light on the subject and expose some myths. While the other party in the debate may have a closed mind, others who are following along may not.

So from this perspective, what Unarmed Shooter is doing is good, and he should be encouraged to continue.

mec
October 9, 2005, 10:36 AM
Also, a .45 automatic is so powerfull that if one hits you on the tip of the finger, it will spin you like the knob on an outhouse door.

I applaud the epistemology of actually making a mercury filled bullet. That's looking in the camel's mouth and counting the teeth. A while back, I got an opportunity to shoot a 50bmg rifle. The target was a litre seven up bottle full of water. I expected instant separation into hydrogen and oxygen. Made a solid hit from about 100 yards with standard ball and the bottle fell over. We ran down there and the bottle was lying on its side with some of the water still in it .50" hole through both sides. We shot one of those iron clamps they use to fasten railroad rails to the cross ties. The base of the bullet was flush with the iron. didn't go through but was kind of neat anyway as the sawhorse it was suspended from fell over.
We also used to put pistol primers in the hollow points of keith bullets. Theywould go pop if you hit steel or concrete but otherwise-nothing. Also drilled out .22 hps and filled them with firecracker powder. Same thing, Hit something hard and they would pop -hit anything else and they worked about like the lead azide bullets the idiot used to shoot Reagan and Brady-that is they didn't go off.

The Viking
October 9, 2005, 10:50 AM
I think part of the problem is that in Sweden relatively few people have any actual experience and know little about firearms. What knowledge they have comes from fictional sources and questionable news media reports, but they believe it is true. The same could be said about some people in parts of the United Kingdom, or for that matter, the United States. So why debate with such individuals? Well if the exchange is on a public forum it gives our side a chance to shine some light on the subject and expose some myths. While the other party in the debate may have a closed mind, others who are following along may not. So from this perspective, what Unarmed Shooter is doing is good, and he should be encouraged to continue.
Thing is, on this forum, there are a number of people who are very knowledgeable about firearms. One current discussion covers the topic "I'm thinking of buying another rifle, any suggestions?" the suggestions are all very well informed, and due to our laws, most of them suggest the most all-round rifles they can think of.
And, if you are over the age of, say 30, chances are that you have some experience with firearms from the armed forces, since back then, like EVERYBODY was to do some training.
Seeing that this particular guy claims to "have seen things" in the course of his career, and the BS he spouts, makes me think hes just an Armchair Commando. Yes, they are somewhat common here too, since everybody needs to be cool in front of the ladies when they go to the local bar/pub, and therefore claims to have been a Coastal Ranger, or Paratrooper, or Ranger. Medics, truckdrivers, Quartermasters, cooks etc. are scarce, if you are to believe everyone...eh, now I got a little OT.
Anyway, Sweden has quite a large number of hunters, and weapons to equip every one too. There are a few other who have chipped in against another moron, who claims that a buddy (The everpresent "buddy o' mine" :rolleyes: ) took dow a deer simply by missing it with a few centimetres. Broken back from shockwave he said. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
The biggest issue of mine with this is that I cant stand BS-ing. Not in any bloody way will I tolerate it. I don't own any firearms yet, I don't have much experience with them either, but I have a huge amount of common sense. That can be a powerful weapon against the forces of stupidity.
BTW, thanks for encouraging me :)

mete
October 9, 2005, 11:00 AM
Old Fuff, Sweden [they do hunt there] and Switzerland have spent much time and effort to design "humane " bullets for their military. Interesting since neither country goes to war and the Swiss at least are prohibited from selling ammo outside their country !!....Many different bullets have been made including mercury filled , a primer in the hollow point to make expansion more effective . That they are not in commercial production tells you they don't work. On the other hand the premium bullets on the market today are very effective, consistant .'The Day of the Jackal" was a fine book and movie .However the mercury bullet was put in there for effect .I remember seeing the movie and the gasps of shock from the audience when the melon was hit -I just laughed ! A high velocity fragile 22 hollow point would have done the same thing .

thatguy
October 9, 2005, 11:30 AM
You need help debating morons?

A 50BMG doing damage with a miss: Myth.

As someone noted, these are shot at paper targets all the time and leave nice holes in the paper. If there was all this energy surrounding the bullet the whole target would be shredded.

hkmp5g17
October 9, 2005, 11:48 AM
Never argue with a drunk...... or a moron. :banghead:

Anthony

MikeIsaj
October 9, 2005, 11:50 AM
Don't waste your time debating with morons. They're morons! They'll never get it, either because they don't want to, or are too stupid. That's why we call them morons!

Darth Ruger
October 9, 2005, 11:55 AM
I've heard plenty of doozies in my time. Back in my Army days, there was this guy in my platoon in Germany who insisted the covert ops guys had this special laser-guided nuclear-powered 'bunker buster' .50 bullet that would pass completely through an M1 Abrams tank and the resulting pressure "will liquify you and suck you out the hole!"

I still get a laugh every time I think about that guy. :D

kirkcdl
October 9, 2005, 11:55 AM
Why use mercury and risk poisoning yourself when plain old water has the same non-compression property?For those unaware,you cannot compress water,one cubic inch will always be,in its liquid state,one cubic inch regardless of the amount of pressure it's under.Theoretically,if you fill a hollow point with water and seal it,the water will cause the hollowpoint to expand in an explosive manner on impact.Never tested it myself,but the water would be safer...

The Tourist
October 9, 2005, 12:18 PM
I think 'debate' is a lost art, it died sometime around 1972. Since then, you either agree totally and completely with the guy who started the thread or you get branded a troll and trouble maker by actually disagreeing with the initial concept.

You could try yelling louder.

I used to debate on a knife forum. Now there's a waste of bandwidth. If you said something like, "I like Striders," some brain-donor would shoot back (in all caps and in bold face), "Why do you hate Spyderco?" It would immediately degrade into a personal attack.

If a more liberal member of the board was flamed, and you asked for decorum, you were immediately branded a "liberal lover." Then, of course, there were two dozen posts that ran something like, "My uncle died at Omaha Beach to secure freedom for you communists' liberty, and you trash his memory!"

Debating had died, and in its place we got a "shoot the messenger" system. I regret that there was a time that a skill debater could take either side of an argument, and deftly win. It was fun.

I've found that on any board you name (no matter how many thousands of members have registered), perhaps five guys are worth answering. The rest of them can't even spell, even when they're butchering their own syntax.

bogie
October 9, 2005, 12:18 PM
At 100 yards (point blank range) a .50 BMG will punch an approximately 1/2" hole through fragile paper. Reach your own conclusions.

You can fill stuff up with mercury, but it ain't gonna work any better.

Solo
October 9, 2005, 01:00 PM
OK, so at the moment I'm debating a moron on a swedish forum, where he claims that A) Mercury filled rounds are not a myth, and B) That a high velocity round (.50 BMG) merely passing you at a distance of a few inches will kill you/rip your arm/leg/head off.

Ask him for his credentials.

The Viking
October 9, 2005, 01:09 PM
Ask him for his credentials.
Good idea, but people are already questioning him, and he has left the debate too... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Double Maduro
October 9, 2005, 02:35 PM
unarmed,

recommend a book on physics.

mec,

Out house doors don't have knobs that turn, they have pull handles. :neener:

DM

Nicky Santoro
October 9, 2005, 03:17 PM
Debating morons, need help

Don't bother. They won't understand anyway and, in the end, will defeat you by sheer experience being obtuse. I live in Nazi Jersey and am familiar with the scenario.

MarkDido
October 9, 2005, 05:47 PM
Debating morons, need help

Don't.

It's like mud wrestling with a pig.
The pig likes it
You just get dirty

Taurus 66
October 9, 2005, 07:03 PM
As someone noted, these are shot at paper targets all the time and leave nice holes in the paper. If there was all this energy surrounding the bullet the whole target would be shredded.

There is so much energy in a 50 BMG, it actually detonates with the force of a mini nuclear bomb upon impact. Case in point:

http://tinypic.com/egobis.jpg

The soldier shooting the mighty 50 BMG in this photo asked us we protect his identity for reasons involving national security.

SB88LX
October 9, 2005, 07:41 PM
MY LORD!! You don't even have to hit the jetliners, you just have to hit the runway and you can take out 4!!!!!! I'm pledging my life savings to the brady campaign ASAP.

XLMiguel
October 9, 2005, 08:02 PM
The conventional wisdom on arguing with idiot/morons/imbeciles of any ilk is that they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Proper discourse requires documented citations from authoritative sources. If he put forth his position, make him defend it - ask for his substantiation (and credentials, or even experience, as a 'firearms expert') - a commercial source for Hg bullets, and forensic documentation of injuries from close encounters w/.50 cal.

Talk is cheap becasue teh supply always excceds teh demand.

Byron Quick
October 9, 2005, 11:12 PM
You tested on watermelons, just like in The Day Of The Jackal? Care to tell more about the results? Remember what kind of bullets you modified, and what kind of ammo that performed better?

The only rifle that I had access to at the time was a Marlin 336 in .35 Remington.

I was using Remington Core-Lokt Soft Point 200 grain bullets. The only reason that I remember the grain and brand is the distinctive shape of the 200 grain bullet versus the 150 grain bullet and the fact that all you can find in .35 Remington around here is Remington and Winchester.

I've hunted a lot with Core-Lokt ammunition. I've come to detest the bullet design. When you recover the bullet, the lead core is scattered here and there throughout the wound channel and the Lord only knows where you find the jacket. Core-Lokt it ain't.

I didn't get much expansion with the regular ammunition. No exploding watermelons. I got less with the mercury filled bullets.

Now it's barely possible that my jury rigged mercury bullets just didn't attain the advanced tolerance of machining necessary to make the mercury filled bullets turn into supernatural death machines. But I don't think so. I think that the basic concept is a crock.

nyresq
October 10, 2005, 02:12 AM
We also used to put pistol primers in the hollow points of keith bullets. Theywould go pop if you hit steel or concrete but otherwise-nothing. Also drilled out .22 hps and filled them with firecracker powder.


MEC, you must have had a fun childhood.... :D

Red Dragon
October 10, 2005, 02:47 AM
Darth ruger said:
Back in my Army days, there was this guy in my platoon in Germany who insisted the covert ops guys had this special laser-guided nuclear-powered 'bunker buster' .50 bullet that would pass completely through an M1 Abrams tank and the resulting pressure "will liquify you and suck you out the hole!"

I think what your buddy was referring to was the depleted uranium rounds. Usually they are 30mm rounds fired out of jets and planes like the A-10 Warthog. There were rumors and stories passed around when I was in that said if you were in an APC or tank and it got hit with one, it would superheat the air inside the vehicle and liquify everyone inside. In my research, I have yet to find anything that would suggest that it is true. What I did find is that the main reason the military started working with depleted uranium rounds is that they are almost twice as dense as lead and when they were fired, unlike most bullets that flatten, this one peels from the nose back, essentially self-sharpening the bullet. making it a good choice for armor-buster rounds.

The physics that would allow someone to get sucked through a bullet hole would require a massive pressure imbalance. We are talkin' vaccum of space kinda thing. The main concern with DU rounds is that some of the dust residue is is believed to be long-term harmful to people and the environment. Given that it has a radioactive half-life of 1,000,000,000 years, so I guess I can understand that.

cxm
October 10, 2005, 09:51 AM
Never try to teach a pig to sing... you will only get frustrated and upset the pig.

FWIW

Chuck

willeo6709
October 10, 2005, 10:15 AM
There are AP rounds for the 50 used in anti ordnance roles in various branches of the military. However, conventional rounds in a conventional M2 heavy machine gun I highly doubt would do any permanent damage by a near miss. However, machine gun belt ammo is not meant to be nail driver accurate. The round right behind it has a damn good chance of doing you in. You never want to be downrange of a beltfed......

brickeyee
October 10, 2005, 11:57 AM
"For those unaware,you cannot compress water,one cubic inch will always be,in its liquid state,one cubic inch regardless of the amount of pressure it's under."

For those 'in the know', if you raise the pressure high enough even water can be compressed.
If you really want to work at it, you can compress plutonium. See 'Fatman'.

Gordon Fink
October 10, 2005, 12:36 PM
I would think that the muzzle blast and recoil from such a powerful weapon would also injure the shooter.

~G. Fink

The Viking
October 10, 2005, 01:13 PM
Thanks for the advice, yeah, I know, never argue with idiots. Thing is, this was so blatantly stupid I just had to call BS on it. As stated previously, a bunch of other people joined in the fray :evil: . Someone suggested that the poster is an older member, known for having his feet firmly planted on the ground.(Not the ground of this planet though :evil: ) Anyway, he left the debate. Witouth ever stating his credentials. (Strange huh? :rolleyes: )
Apparently, he thought we were stupid too, or thought people would simply accept anything sounding official as the absolute truth without bothering to read, since the links he posted proved what we said :D :D That, or he has some serious problem with reading comprehension.

griz
October 10, 2005, 01:48 PM
Taurus, how does the back of his head effect national security?

When I tightened up the tinfoil liner in my hat I figured it out, the Army is breeding soldiers with eyes in the back of their heads. Opps, was I allowed to say that in public?

(nice pic BTW, I knew those things were dangerous :D )

Beren
October 10, 2005, 01:59 PM
Only one way to handle idiots:

Dr. Evil: "Alright, Zip It."
Scott: "But da-"
Dr. Evil: "ZIP IT"
Scott: "Bu-"
Dr. Evil: "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, exZIPIT A"
Scott: "B-"
Dr. Evil: "Oh look, I'm Zipit Longstockings"
Scott: "B-"
Dr. Evil: "When a problem comes around, you must Zip It, (Whip crack), Zip
It good"
Scott: "But dad-"
Dr. Evil: "(Speaking in Japanese), Subtitle: Zip It"

HankB
October 10, 2005, 02:16 PM
Mercury has been used in experimental bullets - around 30 years ago, I remember seeing *component bullets* available to handloaders at a local gun shop outside the Chicago area - they were packaged in little baggies with a cardboard tag that read, IIRC, that they were "Mer-Core" components. They looked like conventional bullet jackets that had (presumably) been filled with mercury and had the nose sealed with some black gunk.

I strongly suspect they were the work of somebody local, and since spreading metallic mercury around is frowned upon, they disappeared from the market pretty fast. (I'd be surprised if their brief distribution went beyond that one gun shop.)

As far as the deadliness of near-misses from the .50 BMG round is concerned, that's already been answered by the folks who've pointed out that it doesn't shred paper on the target range, so there's really not much of a shock wave to worry about.

On a lighter note, if the website is still up, you might try looking at Birdman Weapon Systems and his Nuke 50 BMG video. (Poor Boris . . . )

Byron Quick
October 10, 2005, 07:09 PM
Meanwhile, like all radioactive isotopes, it decays. U-238 decays very slowly, its half-life being the same as the age of the earth (4500 million years). This means that it is barely radioactive, less so than many other isotopes in rocks and sand. http://www.uic.com.au/uran.htm Given that it has a radioactive half-life of 1,000,000,000 years, so I guess I can understand that.

Longer half-lives for most radioactive isotopes means that they are putting out less radiation per unit of time not more.

Much of the talk of half-lives in the millions upon billions of years comes from the the anti-nuclear power folks. Trying to scare everyone who doesn't bother to read up on radiation.

The background radiation contained in the rocks of most places is greater than that of depleted uranium. As far as depleted uranium dust goes, I'd be more concerned about possible toxicity on the chemical side of things.

Animal
October 10, 2005, 07:31 PM
I am an 0331 (machinegunner) Yes, that is an old Marine urban rumor (there's alot) again, the paper target explanation is the best, as I have qualified on the M2 on paper targets and there was nothing so spectacular.

BTW that is not a soldier in the picture, it's a Marine. Sorry to be anal but...well I just am....
Some snipers are a bit leery about pics of them getting loose on the net.

Guy B. Meredith
October 10, 2005, 07:46 PM
Don't ever try to disprove such arguments and assertions. That is a losing proposition. Instead make it clear that it is the proponent's responsibility to prove their arguments and assertions beyond doubt. Keep bringing up questions that need to be answered, don't make assertions of your own.

MechAg94
October 10, 2005, 07:50 PM
Water is slightly compressible, but not very much, so it is usually assumed as incompressible to make the calcs easier. It is a good rule of thumb but not 100% correct.

James T Thomas
October 10, 2005, 08:53 PM
From an old but reliable book of wisdom about many things in human life:
"Though thou shouldest bray (Elizabethan Eng. for grind to a powder) a
fool in a mortar amoung wheat with a pestle, yet will not his foolishness depart from him." The author comes with the highest credentials, and his book of advise for practial everyday living covers all aspects of life.
I have never found it to be wrong.

dangerclose
October 10, 2005, 11:23 PM
The explosive rounds used in the Day of the Jackal were filled with mercury fulminate (an explosive) not metallic mercury, presumably to make up for their subsonic velocity that was necessary to make the silencer on the rifle practical. As an aside, I think some English airgun manufacturer made a replica of the crutch gun in a fitted case that used Brocock air cartridges.

artherd
October 10, 2005, 11:44 PM
So, therefor, I need the results witnessed by The Highroaders. I realize none of you are stupid, therefor the mercury filled bullet is likely untested, but I know several of you guys and gals have .50's. So come on, can you give me results from shooting .50 BMG on various targets?

I can do much better than that. I have been shot 'at' by .50BMG rounds. All that happens is you hear a VERY loud supersonic crack as the bullet goes by. It is much louder than say a .308's supersonic crack.

shermacman
October 11, 2005, 09:41 AM
Artherd,
yeah, I got caught in a similar situation by the girl's boyfriend too. I wonder if it was the same girl?! :D

Stevie-Ray
October 11, 2005, 11:14 PM
As I always understood it, the purpose of using mercury in a HP was to ensure a kill without a perfect shot. If it was not a killing shot the poison was to do the trick.

As far as 50 BMGs being able to hurt you even if they missed, nah, that happens only with .45 ACP. :D

bobhaverford
October 12, 2005, 01:29 AM
Debating or discussing ANYTHING with a liberal is a futile waste of time and energy. Those on the Left are impervious to the blandishments of reason. They deserve only your contempt, or, if you are feeling charitable, your ridicule.

artherd
October 12, 2005, 05:29 AM
Artherd,
yeah, I got caught in a similar situation by the girl's boyfriend too. I wonder if it was the same girl?!

HEY, that was you? I coulda sworn I hit your car like 5 times before it finally caught on fire.

Who'd have know that other guy would have a .50cal too? (and I didn't exactly have my holster on at the time if you get my drift!)

Lonestar.45
October 12, 2005, 09:03 AM
Debating a moron is like peeing into the wind. It may feel good to relieve yourself, but what have you really accomplished?

Double Naught Spy
October 12, 2005, 09:29 AM
I was thinking along the same lines. If you are engaged in a debate with a moron and have to solicit help from others to argue with the moron, what does that say about you?

The Viking
October 12, 2005, 12:08 PM
I was thinking along the same lines. If you are engaged in a debate with a moron and have to solicit help from others to argue with the moron, what does that say about you?
True dat. But said moron provided the help himself...A) probably didn't bother to read trough the links he posted, or B) trolling. The latter is quite probable...
So, I made it thru by myself, although a few searches for stuff here on THR was helpful :)

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