[albanian]

I have a Star BM 9mm that I paid about $160 for and it very accurate. It really like CCI Blazer aluminum cased ammo as well. This is the cheapest ammo I can get and it shoots it like it was made for it. I can shoot this gun/ammo combo in a match and the gun will outshoot me every time.

At 25 feet, it will put every shot into the SAME hole. This is not a joke. It may be a slightly enlarged hole but more or less, the same 9mm hole. This is from a rest of course.

[dmftoy1]

I've got a used Ruger MKII govt' model that I bought from a friend for $100 and you can't beat the cost of .22lr. :)

The gun is definately more capable than I am.

Have a good one,
Dave

[dxkj21]

What kind of sight are you using on the $160 gun to put every shot into the same hole at 25 feet?

over 8 yards and you have a 9mm grouping? :) thats less than a centimeter!

[Newton]

Bulgarian Makarov new in box for $139 with $5 a box Russian FMj ammo, JHP at about $6 a box.

Shoots a cloverleaf from a benchrest at 7 yards.

FEG PJK-9HP Hi Power clone for $199 with 14 round hi-caps, shot a 2.5 inch qualification group for CCW with it, and has never jammed or malfunctioned in any way over about 3,000 rounds.

[nyresq]

got a davis . 22 off a guy in the hood last week that said he got it in trade for a carton of cigs and a bottle of crazy horse... the cigs were stolen, so the only investment was the crazy horse.. which I think is like $4...

And it even came with ammo... and a cool duct tape and rubber band grip. :D
can't get much cheaper then that :neener:



-he was busted for cpw....

[CajunBass]

Hi-Point C-9, 9mm. $140.00 NIB. Any FMJ ammo from Wal-Mart. Blazer Brass, Rem-UMC, WWB. It seems to like 'em all.

[cookekdjr]

Mak with Barnaul FMJ.
S&W Model 10 with almost any .38 load.

[wally]

+1 to Star BM and CCI Aluminum Blaze FMJ ($3.86/50 at your local Academy Sports and Outdoors store).

.38 special ammo is not cheap unless you are already reloading. Cheapest Mak ammo is usually $0.50-$1 more a box athan 9mm.

Probably best to pick up a pair of BMs as spare parts is spotty and will only get worse with time.

Obviously .22lr is the cheapest to shoot with lots of very good guns available for <$250 I assumed centerfire was what this was about.

--wally.

[cookekdjr]

.38 special ammo is not cheap unless you are already reloading. Cheapest Mak ammo is usually $0.50-$1 more a box athan 9mm.

Shop around. You can regularly find Mak ammo at $4.95/50 at ammunitionstore.com.
The New Outdoormarksman and GA Arms both sell high quality .38 reloads and new ammo for low prices (under $8/50 for new, $5.95 for reloads).
My favorite .38 ammo is $6.99 a box (50) at my local gun dealer. It's Ga Arm's "master cartridge" brand. Of course, I have to pay out the nose for my carry ammo. Its $7.99 ... ;)

[trickyasafox]

ultra max has bulk 200 round 38 sp boxes that are a steal. they shoot well for me, but a lot of people realllllllllly dont like ultra max. i like it though, decent brass, very cheap, soft shooting

[wally]

Shop around, you can usually find 9mm for <$4 a box of 50, like I said, try your local Academy Sports and Outdoors store. Which at $3.86 a box last week, is over $1 a box cheaper than your web based 9x18 price.

Not to mention, if you want to reload, you can pick up all the 9mm brass you'd want at most any range around here. Good luck finding reloadable Makarov brass!

Your "cheap" Ultramax .38 Special reloads are over $2 a box more than I'm paying for 9mm.

--wally.

[cookekdjr]

Wally,
You've got to look on the bright side...spent Mak cases are the easiest to pick up off the floor. All you need is a magnet on a string. :D
-David

[albanian]

:evil: I really wish there was an Academy Sports by me! The cheapest 9mm ammo I can buy is from Natchez for about $4.60 before shipping. If I could get CCI Blazer for $3.86 a box, I would buy by the truck load.

[Borachon]

Good luck finding reloadable Makarov brass!

I believe I've heard other fellows say they can grind the 1mm off the end of 9x19 and use them in 9x18. Anyone confirm this?

In which case, every 9x19 would work as reloadable 9x18 brass.

[wally]

You've be over stretching the case mouth (9x18 is a bit larger than the 0.355" of 9mm bullets) and have an undersized case head. Might work if SHTF, but would be a real PITA for any volume of shooting and your efforts could largely go to naught when your "special" cases are mixed in amoung the volumes of 9mm brass littering most ranges.


Wally,
You've got to look on the bright side...spent Mak cases are the easiest to pick up off the floor. All you need is a magnet on a string.
-David

Would work great if 9x18 steel cased ammo was Boxer primed like Wolf .45ACP is. I usually reload my Wolf .45ACP cases once with a silver colored primer so I don't mix them up and reload them a second time. I met a fellow at the range who says he reloads them same as brass -- until they split at the mouth or get lost, but I'm not *that* cheap.

--wally.

[Borachon]

I don't know anything about reloading. I've never owned any equipment to do it.

9x18 is typically cheap enough that I don't bother to learn how. It's been my experience that 9x19 ammunition is typically more expensive on average than 9x18. There may be some local exceptions but not everyone will be willing or able to drive to these stores to save a one dollar.


I got the idea about trimming 9x19 brass from this site:

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=107759

And these

http://www.shelfspace.com/~c-r-ffl/archives/199803/msg01270.html
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=104830

And here...where they say it can be done but is a pain in the rear. www.thehighroad.org/printthread.php?t=194 They say that finding 9x18 brass isn't difficult also.

[M2 Carbine]

"Borachon
I believe I've heard other fellows say they can grind the 1mm off the end of 9x19 and use them in 9x18. Anyone confirm this?

In which case, every 9x19 would work as reloadable 9x18 brass. "
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Back when the Makarovs were first imported 9x18 reloadable brass was very hard to find, I trimmed down a couple thousand rounds of 9mm brass. It's still mixed in with my commercial 9x18 brass and continues to be reloaded.

After trimming and reloading the 9mm brass as 9x18 it has a little Coke bottle shape. When shot it is fire formed to the straight wall of the 9x18 and is identical to the 9x18 except some 9mm brass is built slightly heavier.


The Makarov and almost any cheap ammo will shoot as well or better than almost any pistol that costs 4 or 5 times as much. :)

[cookekdjr]

Quote:
Wally,
You've got to look on the bright side...spent Mak cases are the easiest to pick up off the floor. All you need is a magnet on a string.
-David



Would work great if 9x18 steel cased ammo was Boxer primed like Wolf .45ACP is. I usually reload my Wolf .45ACP cases once with a silver colored primer so I don't mix them up and reload them a second time. I met a fellow at the range who says he reloads them same as brass -- until they split at the mouth or get lost, but I'm not *that* cheap.

--wally.

Wally, I was joking. It does no good to pick up something you shouldn't re-load. ;)
You are right, of course. Nothing centerfire is as cheap as 9mm. Dang it. :banghead:
Have a good one,

David

[armoredman]

Cheapest combo? My too-low-to-say CZ 75 PO1 promotional, and my 9mm reloads....or the promo deal my wife got on her CZ 2075 RAMI...let's just say waaaaaay under MSRP.....

[Borachon]

The Makarov and almost any cheap ammo will shoot as well or better than almost any pistol that costs 4 or 5 times as much.

Well Hell M2...I knew THAT. ;)

Although I'd probably emphasize "BETTER" than any other pistol....I've seen a $130 IJ70 outshoot a $400 Glock.

We had a shooting near where I live. 3 policemen shot, several other folks. It happened at a place that I've stopped to eat at on numerous occasions. So I took the IJ70s out today to make sure they were sighted in.

Sweet stuff. When you put all the shots in the X or 10 ring at 25 yards, it makes you feel good.


Edit:
IMO the Makarov is the best combination of value (price) versus quality that can be found in the gun owning world. Would I prefer it was in 9x19? Yeah, I probably would. It's more common ammo. Since I can't have that, I then have to ask myself if the ammo is affordable...cause if it isn't, the gun becomes a liablity. Thankfully, 9x18 is some of the cheapest ammo going. So it's a compromise...I get a gun that is unGodly reliable about not jamming (even when I let mine rust...like I did before this afternoon), and is fairly concealable and is also dead on accurate about bullet placement. In exchange, I have to shoot a slightly less powerful cartridge than a 9x19 but at the same, or less, cost ammowise. As long as I remember to stock up whenever I go to the gunshow, I count myself well content.

Yeah, 9x19 won't work in my gun. If TSHTF then the stores will be out of it. When my stock runs out, I'll be SOL for finding ammo. Note to self: Remember to take the other guy's 9x19 pistol and ammo after I shoot him. Okay...problem solved.

[bcochran]

No one can beat this story!

I had a friend who had to buy everything new on the market, shoot it, and then sell it. He had problems making the guns function. After a while I tired of telling him to degrease every gun he bought before shooting it for the first time. Sure enough he bought a new Ruger Mark I and it repeatedly jammed on him. I bought it new, for $35, degreased it, and it still runs smoothly years later. It works with every promotional .22 lr ammo on the market.

[M2 Carbine]

"Borachon
Yeah, 9x19 won't work in my gun. If TSHTF then the stores will be out of it. When my stock runs out, I'll be SOL for finding ammo. Note to self: Remember to take the other guy's 9x19 pistol and ammo after I shoot him. Okay...problem solved."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did a lot of tourture testing a new Bulgarian Mak and it's even more reliable than most people immagine. :)

Actually the 9x19 will fire in the Makarov. It is too long to load in the Mak magazine so it's a single shoot pistol.
Not something you normally want to do but it's nice to know if TSHTF.

I tried different .357 and .355 bullets loaded for the Mak and in a pinch a 110gr .357 bullet works fine.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"bcochran No one can beat this story!

I had a friend who had to buy everything new on the market, shoot it, and then sell it. He had problems making the guns function. After a while I tired of telling him to degrease every gun he bought before shooting it for the first time. Sure enough he bought a new Ruger Mark I and it repeatedly jammed on him. I bought it new, for $35, degreased it, and it still runs smoothly years later. It works with every promotional .22 lr ammo on the market "
------------------------------------------------------------------------

bcochran,
Actually I can.
A friend bought a Glock 17. He had so much trouble with it that he tried to give it to me.
I wouldn't take it.
Glock is on my short list of guns I don't want even if they are free. :D

[Borachon]

Actually the 9x19 will fire in the Makarov.

Here's the part of the thread where I express fear for your safety. :eek:

Any damage that you noticed to the weapon afterward?...and how MANY 9x19s did you fire through your pistol. Supposedly....so I'm told....a 9x19 has too much power to safely shoot in the Makarov. Although I suppose if I wanted to shoot the wrong bullet in any gun, I'd pick the Mak. Solid steel construction means it probably has more tolerance for "dramatic ammo changes" than most modern polymer firearms.

Also...again this is something I'm told but never tried....you can shoot .380 ammo in a 9x18 barrel...and it should eject and function correctly because it's a shorter round. Never tried it, and I'm sure it will cause the barrel to wear out faster...but hey, if it's the only ammo you got and you need to burn off a clip, the Mak will probably survive long enough to do that without exploding.

[M2 Carbine]

I am not advocating anyone shoot 9x19 in the Makarov.

Along with other ammo testing I worked up to the standard full load 9x19.
As with most of the testing I did I started out with a pretty light load.

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=294814&perpage=25&highlight=&pagenumber=1

The 9x19 does not develop full pressure and velocity in the 9x18 Makarov because there is a lot of blow by sending a .355 diameter bullet down a barrel sized for a .364 diameter bullet. Some guns are actually designed to allow blow by to reduce the pressure of the round that's used. The HK VP70 is one.

Now a .380 Makarov is a different story. The case is only 17 mm long and the barrel is sized for a .355 bullet. If the 9x19 would fit and fire it would develop, I'm sure, dangerous pressure.

When I was checking out the 9x19 in the Makarov I don't know how many rounds I reloaded working up to a full 9x19 load using 9x19 brass and 115gr FMJ bullets. When I reached full load 9x19 reloads I fired one Winchester 115gr FMJ just to say it was done.
BTW my Maks all have 21 pound recoil springs.

None of the testing harmed the Mak in any way. I shoot it quite often.

[Borachon]

None of the testing harmed the Mak in any way.

Hmmm...I'll keep it in mind if I ever find myself in Australia in a Post Nuclear War ravaged land trying to find gasoline to keep my car running and need to use some salvaged ammo. :D

The blow by is probably the worst part of the whole process...in terms of wearing out your Makarov. Heat and pressure going the wrong way...and a reduced sized bullet banging its way down the interior of your barrel...first one side, then the other. Probably not good long term. That said though....if the excreta were to impact the rotory occilating device...that one 9x19 in the barrel could mean the difference between making it or not.

Thanks for the info.

[Borachon]

Hmmm...I'll keep it in mind if I ever find myself in Australia in a Post Nuclear War ravaged land trying to find gasoline to keep my car running and need to use some salvaged ammo. :D

The blow by is probably the worst part of the whole process...in terms of wearing out your Makarov. Heat and pressure going the wrong way...and a reduced sized bullet banging its way down the interior of your barrel...first one side, then the other. Probably not good long term. That said though....if the excreta were to impact the rotory occilating device...that one 9x19 in the barrel could mean the difference between making it or not.

Thanks for the info.

Edited:
Now a .380 Makarov is a different story. The case is only 17 mm long and the barrel is sized for a .355 bullet. If the 9x19 would fit and fire it would develop, I'm sure, dangerous pressure.


Agreed. Bad idea to put the 9x19 into the 9x17 (aka .380) sized pistol. I've heard that it's possible...in an emergency situation...to 'get away with' shooting .380 in a 9x18 barrel. Same problem with blow by and smaller diameter bullet in the 9x17 as you'd find in the 9x19....but the x17 doesn't have quite the explosive power behind it....so you might (don't quote me on it) be able to get away with shooting .380 bullets in a 9x18 barrel for longer before wear and tear ruins the gun. But I feel like this ruination would eventually happen. A 9.2mm gun just isn't designed to shoot a 9mm bullet for very long. But it might be enough to get away with doing it once or twice and not explode in your hand. Like I say...of all the guns out there, I'd trust the all steel Mak to shoot "near but not quite" ammunition sooner than I'd trust a polymer, polycarbonate, ceramic Sesame Street pistol.

[M2 Carbine]

The blow by probably isn't a wear problem, at least not for many thousand rounds.
The VP70 was originally a 3 round burst machine pistol. I have no information on barrel wear due to the blow by but since they used this feature on a machine gun the wear time must have been acceptable.

My shooting the 9x19 in the Makarov was done just to answer the question that was brought up from time to time. What would happen?
I was of the opinion that nothing would happen.
And it was just another demonstration of what a tough pistol the Makarov is.

What I was really interested in was using 38 (.357) bullets in the Makarov. I wanted a 110-115 grain bullet. The bullet manufacturers only have 90 to 95 grain Makarov bullets available for reloading and they are expensive. 38, 9mm and .380 bullets are relatively cheap.

The tests were good.
The .357 bullets were engraved pretty well by the rifling and shot well within what might be considered defense accuracy.
The 9x19 bullets were also engraved by the rifling but not as well and did not have the accuracy of the .002 larger diameter .357 bullet.

I can't find any of the .357 targets but this one is the 9x19. Pretty poor group.

The .357 bullets would hold a good group inside of the center ring.

In all, the tests were successful but as long as cheap 9x18 ammo is available, loading the .357 bullets isn't necessary.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/9mminMakarov450.jpg

[MaMa PyCb]

I live very close to AIM surplus and get box of silver bear 9x18 for $4.95.........But I normally buy it by the case.....
I love my MAK, very close to my heart, a little low and to the left of it to be exact!:D

[Juna]

bcochran,
Actually I can.
A friend bought a Glock 17. He had so much trouble with it that he tried to give it to me.
I wouldn't take it.
Glock is on my short list of guns I don't want even if they are free. :D

I'm not a huge Glock fan, either, but I'd take one for free. Does your friend still have it? :D

[M2 Carbine]

I'm not a huge Glock fan, either, but I'd take one for free. Does your friend still have it? :D

Yes he's still got it, after I wouldn't take it he spent more money on it and he's got it working so he decided to keep it.

A couple weeks ago I gave him a new Bulgarian Makarov so he would have a good pistol. He was carrying the Makarov the last time I saw him.



Don't get a rope all you Glock fans.;)

[Borachon]

M2...have you ever come across a 9x18 bullet that was FMJ but larger than 109gr? I know the old Wolf ammo had 109 gr bullets but I was looking for FMJ in a bigger bullet.

I know 120gr Silver Bears were made in a hollow point at one time, and I was curious if they ever filled in the hollow point and made a 130 or 135gr FMJ? I'd probably buy some if an ammo maker had some.

[sm]

Used Model 10.

Police trade-ins may be a bit worn externally, internals are usually sound. Especially the OLDER ones. .38spl is not expensive, easy to find, and a variety of loadings to meet many tasks. I mean bait shops, Mom&Pop grocery/ gas stations have a box of some kind of .38 spl on the shelf.

Not dependent on Mags to run. Not ammo dependent.

About the only thing one can find easier for less monies , and maintenance free is a stick...the Model 10 will work, sticks break.

Similar is the Ruger Security Six series

[M2 Carbine]

+1 on the S&W Mod 10.:)


No Borachon, I haven't seen any FMJ heavier than 100+.

I've still got a case or two of the Silver Bear 120 gr JHP. To get them to feed in all my mags I set the bullets back a few thousandths. Then they are pretty reliable.

[Moonclip]

Surprisingy though, I have actually broken model 10 and variants. Snapped a mod 14 firing pin just shooting wadcutter ammo, gun had a lot of ammo through it though.

Dropped a model 10 in a Crown Royal bag on tile. No damage to finish of gun but impact snapped the end off the rod that goes thru the middle if the ejector rod and star that locks up the gun on the frame. I've seen Maks break too, I think the factory from Bulgaria specifies less than a 10000 rd service life, but that seems conservative and I'd say a Makarov can take more abuse if that would be a consideration.

[jlh26oo]

P89DAO $289 out the door nib
CCI Blazer $3.86/50

2 1/16" 5 shot group from rest at 25 yards

[Scout Sniper]

Astra M960 38spl = $110 Ammo @ $8 abox:D