Which gun for Bullseye Pistol?


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Shrinkmd
October 10, 2005, 12:32 AM
I am beginning my journey toward Distinguished Expert, and I am curious what guns people use? Do people prefer their 617 and 41 or Mark IIs for accurate 22, or their larger caliber HD/CCW guns? I guess if you're shooting a lot even fancy match .22 ammo is cheaper than match in higher calibers.

I just hate cleaning those 10 cylinders...

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Standing Wolf
October 10, 2005, 12:43 AM
I greatly prefer High Standards to model 41s; unfortunately, all my High Standards are old, and it's difficult to find replacement parts and impossible to find competent gunsmiths.

I bought a Ruger Mark II a couple years ago to shoot as a practice gun and save wear and tear on the High Standards, but it's turned out to be a complete waste of money.

I've bought a .22 top for my model 1911, and finally got the trigger squared away this past week. Assuming I can get used to the extremely bright Docter sight, it may well become my rim fire pistol. If it doesn't work out, I'm going to have to start looking seriously at Pardini, Benelli, Morini, Walther, and Hammerli: all European pistols with high price tags and the same parts and gunsmithing problems I already have with High Standards.

VARifleman
October 10, 2005, 12:58 AM
A lot of people like the 41s, but I haven't found a pistol that fit my hand as well as a Benelli m90. Depending how much you want to spend, you could get a Feinwerkbau standard pistol, but that will run in the 1600-1800 range.

ZenMasterJG
October 10, 2005, 01:21 AM
Hard to go wrong with a Ruger MKIII, which are pretty good, and not terribly expensive.

I once got a chance to play around with the Feinwerkbau AW 93, and all i can say is WOW. If you've got the cash, you probably won't ever find a better .22 target pistol. Its probably capable of better accuracy then I have any chance of ever achieving.
That price tag sure does hurt, though! :)

Powderman
October 10, 2005, 04:22 AM
If you have a 1911 type pistol, you can't do better (IMHO) than the Marvel Unit 1, with an Ultra-Dot on it.

deadin
October 10, 2005, 10:02 AM
A good inexpensive (when compared to the Europeans mentioned above) 22 competition pistol is the Russian Baikal IZH-35. Fully adjustable trigger, ergonomic adjustable grip, good target sights,etc. I don't know if they are importing them any more but they could be had for $350-450. Like most Russians they are not finished well except where it is needed. Mine is extremely reliable and seems to be willing to eat most any brand of ammo.
I have a Benelli MP95e that only likes CCI Blue Box and I've had finicky M41's and Colt Woodsman Targets.
One thing, if you do find a Baikal, avoid ones dated prior to 00 (2000). The earlier ones had a problem with doubling if you set the trigger too light. They seem to have corrected this in the later ones.

Dean

cookekdjr
October 10, 2005, 10:05 AM
It's really hard to beat a Ruger Mark Series. They last forever, and you can upgrade them as you go.
I realize that there are many high-dollar guns that shoot better out-of-the-box, but...
I just can't see where any are worth the extra money, especially if you are just starting out. NRA's publication Shooting Sports Illustrated ran a feauture this year where they recommended a Ruger Mk series as the no-brainer beginner gun for Bullseye. They listed the common modifications that competitors make, but I have noticed a number of champions who used stock Rugers (and even Browning Buck Marks) with little more than a trigger job.
If I were beginning Bullseye, I'd get a Ruger and a $65 trigger job, and that's it. I would not make any other upgrades until I became locally competitive. Practice, not the minute differences in the gun, will make the most difference.
Good luck, and happy shooting!
-David

Shrinkmd
October 10, 2005, 10:25 AM
Someday I may want to compete, but for now I am going to just work my way through the stages (till I get stuck somewhere...) It sounds like most people are advising the .22 pistol. Looks like my 617 is going to get a lot more rounds through it!

Also, to work on my trigger skills, would most people try to perfrom in double action vs single. I know I shoot it better in SA, but there's only one way to practice.

Also, you score targets on the closer ring, as long as the hole from the shot breaks it, right?

Pilot
October 10, 2005, 01:14 PM
I've had a Benelli MP95E for many years now and its been great. Never had any problems feeding any ammo and its more accurate than I am. The RUger MK II is a good starter though as you cna updgrade the triggers to be really nice. Lots of other mods available also.

md2lgyk
October 10, 2005, 01:25 PM
Also, to work on my trigger skills, would most people try to perfrom in double action vs single. I know I shoot it better in SA, but there's only one way to practice. Also, you score targets on the closer ring, as long as the hole from the shot breaks it, right?

I've been shooting competitive bullseye for nearly 20 years (currently Expert classification) and have NEVER seen anybody shoot it double action. Even the very few that still use revolvers cock them manually and shoot them single action.

And yes, if a bullet hole touches a higher-value scoring ring, it is scored at the higher value.

I suggest you pay a visit to www.bullseyepistol.com for information on bullseye shooting.

rick_reno
October 10, 2005, 02:46 PM
Older M41's are good guns. I've seen two new ones come thru our club, both were terrible and went back and forth to S&W a number of times before the owners gave up and sold them. I've used a Buckmark, Ruger, a Marvel conversion on a Kimber Gold Match, Hammerli and now a Pardini. The Pardini SP is an excellent gun, I had Arnie Vitarbo make up a set of grips for it and they've worked out great. I'm not sure who is handling Pardini's these days, Don Nygord got ill and last time we talked he said he was talking about Larry Carter picking them up.

Standing Wolf
October 10, 2005, 09:40 PM
Don Nygord got ill and last time we talked he said he was talking about Larry Carter picking them up.

Don has died. Larry is working on it:

THE PARDINIS ARE COMING! THE PARDINIS ARE COMING! THE PARDINIS ARE COMING!!!!
We have finally received the last of the ATF permits required to get our shipment of Pardinis moving. We have arranged for Pardini to send us all they can spare.
We certainly appreciate your patience as we worked through this tangled mess of bureaucracy.

rick_reno
October 11, 2005, 01:26 PM
StandingWolf - that's terrible news. I really enjoyed our conversations.

Artful
October 13, 2005, 01:55 AM
1st I used a Colt Woodsman Match Target :p - I was convinced to change to High Standard Victor as they quit making woodsman's. :cuss: Then High Standard went out of business and I became paranoid about it :uhoh: , bought a Ruger Mark 2 678G - Now they no longer make mark 2's :eek: but at least they still make a mark 3 :)

I bought a 2nd Mark 2 before they went up too much :neener:

I have shot other's guns (Browning Buckmark was good, Benelli wasn't good for my hand but shot well for the owner, Ditto S&W 41's same as Benelli, Browning Medalist was excellent except for the cost :what:) and my conclusion is any Quality Handgun that fits your hand and has a heavy barrel with balance that seems good to you (I like weight forward myself) will most likely do as well as most humans can hold. :cool:

Nail Shooter
October 14, 2005, 09:31 AM
Of the 22's I own, I'd rank them is this order: Hamden High Std Victor, S&W 41, Sig Trailside. It's also how they happen to rank in weight from heaviest to the lightest. All of these guns have really good triggers, sights, and grips. The High Std is all business, and the trigger is out of this world. The 41 has an elegance about it and feels really good in the hand--beautiful fit, finish, and bluing. The Trailside is quite light and easy to hold out there--hits good too. (My wife calls this one "her 22".) The optional target grips (which are plastic) fit my hand well on the Sig, but there's just something about the wood grips on the others.

I had high hopes for the Colt Match Target that I bought, but accuracy wise I can't hold quite as tight of groups. It's in the same league as my Buckmark and Ruger Gov't Match Target for the ammo that I've tried in it. The Colt is just awesome beautiful though, and I need to experiment more w/ different brands of target ammo thru this one.

Can you tell I like 22 semi autos?

:D

USSR
October 14, 2005, 10:09 AM
High Standard Victor.

Don

albanian
October 14, 2005, 10:31 AM
If you want a centerfire and don't want to break the bank, there are always the K-38 or M-19 from S&W. I got a 19 with 6" bbl and TT, TS, TH in excellent cond. for $285. It turned out to be more accurate than I can shoot so I was happy. It had a great trigger and enough accuracy that you will probably never outshoot it. All guns are different but any good target style revolver out of the box with ammo it likes will probably outshoot just about anyone. Why spend $1000 + on a target 1911 when you can shoot tighter groups with a sub $300 S&W? There is no better Bullseye gun for the money than a nice used S&W.

YodaVader
October 14, 2005, 01:08 PM
Why spend $1000 + on a target 1911 when you can shoot tighter groups with a sub $300 S&W? There is no better Bullseye gun for the money than a nice used S&W.

Nearly all shooters find it much easier to shoot timed and rapid with a 1911 over any revolver. Having to thumb cock 5 shots for a 10 second rapid fire string is far more than most are willing to deal with and in my opinion would severely handicap one from the start. And true bullseye is shot one-handed. In all the santioned matches I have shot in or watched all the participants used semi autos in both centerfire and 22.

Our local club holds non sanctioned winter leagues indoors at a 50 ft range and in the centerfire matches they shoot slow fire only , in these matches most of the shooters seem to agree with your statement - most use Smith revolvers.

CraigJS
October 14, 2005, 10:22 PM
Benelli MP95E, can be had 650.00+- to 1200.00+- . Low muzzle rise, very good trigger, great balance, and with Nils grips an absolute dream to shoot. Mine started out at the 650.00 price, and by adding Nils grips, 75.00 for Hammerli trigger parts/tweaking, 3 extra mags (6 rounders), mounts and Ultra Dot, ended up at about 1150.00. I don't regret it at all. I raised my scores 20 points in the first two matches that I shot with it.. (after owning it for less than two months) This was over an IZH 35M that I'd shot for more than one year. (And an 35M will hold its own against almost any pistol under 800.00-900.00) If you can check one out, it will make your short list for BE.
CraigJS

Sunray
October 15, 2005, 03:03 AM
"...toward Distinguished Expert..." No Ruger .22 will get you there. A Smith 41 might if you can find the brand of ammo it shoots well and functions with. Andonly with the 5" barrel. The longer isn't allowed. They're extremely fussy about what ammo they'll do both with and no two will be the same. Mine will shoot and function with two brands that I can easily get and nothing else.
If you really want to be competetive and you're good enough, look at a set of high end target pistols. Last price I saw was about 2 grand Cdn. for a .32 S&W and 2 grand for the same pistol in .22lr. Conversion kits(different slide on the same frame) didn't seem to work as well as a pair. No matter who made it. Serious handgun bullseye shooting isn't any less expensive than serious Camp Perry shooting. It takes the same level of dedication and physical training. Upper body tone and mental concentration is even more important.
I'd look at the pistols the really good shooters are using in your club. They were Walthers, mostly, when I was shooting ISU(ISSA now I think).

Graystar
October 15, 2005, 03:43 AM
A Smith 41 might if you can find the brand of ammo it shoots well and functions with. Andonly with the 5" barrel. The longer isn't allowed. Why isn't the longer barrel allowed?

Powderman
October 15, 2005, 06:50 AM
"...toward Distinguished Expert..." No Ruger .22 will get you there. A Smith 41 might if you can find the brand of ammo it shoots well and functions with. Andonly with the 5" barrel. The longer isn't allowed. They're extremely fussy about what ammo they'll do both with and no two will be the same. Mine will shoot and function with two brands that I can easily get and nothing else.
If you really want to be competetive and you're good enough, look at a set of high end target pistols. Last price I saw was about 2 grand Cdn. for a .32 S&W and 2 grand for the same pistol in .22lr. Conversion kits(different slide on the same frame) didn't seem to work as well as a pair. No matter who made it. Serious handgun bullseye shooting isn't any less expensive than serious Camp Perry shooting. It takes the same level of dedication and physical training. Upper body tone and mental concentration is even more important.
I'd look at the pistols the really good shooters are using in your club. They were Walthers, mostly, when I was shooting ISU(ISSA now I think).

Here, I must respectfully disagree.

The Ruger Competition Model Mk II will definitely get to DX and beyond. I used mine to get to Expert, and now shoot a Marvel Unit 1--because I got a good price on it.

My Ruger will shoot a sub 1" group at 50 yards, and will do so consistently, even with cheap ammunition. As a matter of fact, Federal American Eagle shoots neck and neck with Winchester T22 in this gun.

One negative point, though--the Ruger is definitely barrel heavy, and takes some getting used to. The Marvel balances a lot better for me.

JimPGov
October 15, 2005, 09:48 AM
In Your Post I See The Term Distinguished. If You Goal Is To Become A Distinguished Pistol Shot. It Is Easy To Decide. First Buy A Rock River Arms Hard Ball .45 Than Buy A Marvel .22 Cal Conversion Kit. You Can Learn The Hard Ball 4lb Trigger And The Correct Sight Picture While Firing Cheap .22 Cal Standard Velocity Ammo. With That Combo You Can Shoot All The 2700's And Bullseye Matches You Can Find. I REAGULARLY SHOT A MARVEL CONVERSION FOR THE .22 STAGE IN BULLSEYE. THAN YOU SWAP THE TOP (A 2 MIN CONVERSION) AND SHOOT THE .45 FOR THE CENTERFIRE STAGE AND THE .45 STAGE.Jp

deadin
October 15, 2005, 10:30 AM
In Your Post I See The Term Distinguished. If You Goal Is To Become A Distinguished Pistol Shot. It Is Easy To Decide. First Buy A Rock River Arms Hard Ball .45 Than Buy A Marvel .22 Cal Conversion Kit. You Can Learn The Hard Ball 4lb Trigger And The Correct Sight Picture While Firing Cheap .22 Cal Standard Velocity Ammo. With That Combo You Can Shoot All The 2700's And Bullseye Matches You Can Find. I REAGULARLY SHOT A MARVEL CONVERSION FOR THE .22 STAGE IN BULLSEYE. THAN YOU SWAP THE TOP (A 2 MIN CONVERSION) AND SHOOT THE .45 FOR THE CENTERFIRE STAGE AND THE .45 STAGE.Jp

If you are going to shout (see the caps above) about the attributes of the above combination, I have a couple of observations/questions.
If this is the way to go, why do the serious competitors have at least three guns and sometimes more? i.e. .22 Bullseye (w/scope or dot), .22 Iron for the .22 leg of a 2700. A .32 or .38 Wad gun( for the centerfire leg). A .45 target gun(for the .45 leg). Sometimes they even break the .45 into a Wad gun and a Hardball gun. Also, I don't see anyone serious using cheap ammo in competition. (only practice.)
I will agree that your suggestion is a good way to start, but if you are going to be serious(where a couple of points is all that makes the difference between winning the match or not), you need the tools. Unfortunately the tools cost +$$$.


Dean
MP95e
IZH35 w/dot
Pardini 32WC
M1911 (Saving up for a Wilson or Baer)

I'm not winning any matches with this battery, but I can't blame it on the guns

Graystar
October 15, 2005, 01:45 PM
First Buy A Rock River Arms Hard Ball .45I like your thinkin', Jim! :D

However, I waited two years for mine. I doubt that the current lead time is much shorter.

JimPGov
October 15, 2005, 02:46 PM
First To Deadin;
I Type In Caps. No Rymne Nor Reason. When I Proof Read It It Transfers My Message To Caps Only On The First Letter Of The Word. When You Ad Text In The Preview Post It Keeps It In All Caps. If You Take It As Shouting Thats A Problem You Must Deal With Yourself. If You Don't Like It Don't Read It.

As To Why Just A Ball Gun And A .22 Conversion. The Original Post Said "distinguished" . That Is The Most Economical Way And Smartest Way To Become Distinguished.

I Have 3 Distnguished Badges Now And Am Working On #4 (only Shot 2 Matches And Legged In Both). I'm A Member Of The President Hundred In 2 Different Fields. I Hold 1 High Master Card, 1 Master Card, And 2 Expert Cards. Govenor Twenty Winner , State Champion, And Have Won A National Match In 2 Different Fields. Believe It Or Not I Know What I'm Talking About

As To Why Not 3 Differnt Guns. Why LEarn 3 Different Triggers? He's Just Starting .it's Easier To Learn 1 Trigger And Learn It Well. You List States Your Are Switching From A European 2 Stage Trigger To A 1911 ( Single Stage Trigger). Even You Say It's Not The Guns Fault. Mmmmum Maybe You Could Learn Something Also. As For The.38 Or .32 Only A Couple Of People I Saw At Perry Were Using That. And When It Is A Little Breezy Even They Put Them Away And Shoot .45 For The Centerfire Match.

Not Everyone Has $5000 To Buy A Full Set Of Guns. That Was An Easy Way For A Person To Start. But Not Be Hampered By Bad Equipment.

These Are My Answers To Your Questions. No Further Contact Is Necessery.

Graystar;
Rra Delivery Time On A Hardball Gun Is 4-6 Months Now.

Hold Hard And Squeeze The Trigger!!
THEY ALL FALL TO HARDBALL!!

Justin
October 17, 2005, 02:56 PM
It's been my experience that by the time you actually drop enough coin on a Ruger Mk II or III to make it a decent competitive pistol, you could have just bought a Smith M41 and been done with it.

Canuck-IL
October 17, 2005, 03:43 PM
Rra Delivery Time On A Hardball Gun Is 4-6 Months Now.

but they do have stocking dealers...true, usually out of stock but often with some in the pipe...there's one on Gunbroker right now for $1469 and I think Adco has some in stock from time to time
/Bryan

BlkHawk73
October 17, 2005, 09:00 PM
http://www.targettalk.org/index.php

Why not just go all the way maybe a Benelli MP model or one of the pardini or Morini pistols...the really good stuff. Not talked about a lot but pardini also makes a centerfire (.45) pistol that very nice also.

Graystar
October 18, 2005, 10:16 PM
It's been my experience that by the time you actually drop enough coin on a Ruger Mk II or III to make it a decent competitive pistol, you could have just bought a Smith M41 and been done with it.Ditto.

Standing Wolf
October 19, 2005, 12:16 AM
It's been my experience that by the time you actually drop enough coin on a Ruger Mk II or III to make it a decent competitive pistol, you could have just bought a Smith M41 and been done with it.

I just took my much-reworked Ruger Mark II to the range this evening. The creep is gone from the trigger; unfortunately, it's at least a three-pound trigger. I'd have been better off throwing the money out a car window: at least I wouldn't have ended up with a @#$%^&! Ruger.

I'll never buy anything from that company again!

md2lgyk
October 21, 2005, 02:25 PM
I Have 3 Distnguished Badges Now And Am Working On #4 (only Shot 2 Matches And Legged In Both). I'm A Member Of The President Hundred In 2 Different Fields. I Hold 1 High Master Card, 1 Master Card, And 2 Expert Cards. Govenor Twenty Winner , State Champion, And Have Won A National Match In 2 Different Fields. Believe It Or Not I Know What I'm Talking About

And my BS meter just pegged.

YodaVader
October 21, 2005, 02:50 PM
It's been my experience that by the time you actually drop enough coin on a Ruger Mk II or III to make it a decent competitive pistol, you could have just bought a Smith M41 and been done with it.

I own a MKII and the only modification I have done to it was sending to Clark for a trigger job and drilling and tapping for a scope base. With this work the entire sum cost me around $350 (mid 1990s) which was still far less than what the 41 cost at that time.

But after being told many times how much superior the 41 is I finally bought one in 2000 - was around $675. True , out of the box , the trigger is much better than my stock MKII. But in my case it is not as good as my Ruger with the Clark work. The smooth wood on the backstrap proved to be slippery and I eventually replaced the grips with a set of Nills which fit my hand almost perfectly. Even with all the extra money spent buying the 41 and adding the nice grips I have not shot any better scores with it compared to my MKII.

I had began to think that MY 41 may not be providing the type of accuracy typical of a 41. After mounting a scope and testing it with various brands of ammo my suspicions were confirmed. So , I will eventually get another barrel. Until then I will be shooting the Ruger.

JimPGov
October 21, 2005, 02:55 PM
I Have Sent You A Pm Which Gives You The Ability To Verify What I Have Stated About Myself Is Accurate. I See You Are A Senior Member Of This Board. Verify This Information And Reply. I Have Made Very Few Comments On This Board But If You Check I Am Here Daily And Only Comment On What I Know For Sure. I Choose My Words And When To Speak Carefully. Thanks Jp
P.S. IF YOU HAVE A MODERATIOR CONTACT ME I'LL PROVIDE THEM WITH MY NRA # SO THAT THRU THE NRA CLASSIFICATION LOOKUP THEY MY VERIFY MY CARD STATUS.
Hold Hard And Squeeze The Trigger

md2lgyk
October 21, 2005, 03:24 PM
As I said in my reply to your PM, I checked and you are indeed the real deal. My apologies.

JimPGov
October 21, 2005, 03:41 PM
Thanks You For The Timly Reply. Accepted Jp

deadin
October 22, 2005, 12:45 AM
Question for CraigJS.

Have you had any ejection problems with your MP95e with the Ultra-dot mounted? I tried a similar mount on mine and found that it would bounce an empty back into the action every now and then. The two solutions I have tried is to use a high mount or to use a single ring mount and set the sight way back so the ejection port is clear. Neither solution seems to be very good. The high mount seems awkward and the single ring mount seems somewhat fragile. My final solution has been to use the Benelli for Iron sight comps and use my IZH35M with a dot for Bullseye. I like the 95e a lot more and would like to consolidate to one gun, (My eyes aren't what they used to be and a little optics help alot)

Dean

CraigJS
October 22, 2005, 11:08 AM
deadin,
I don't recall ever haveing that problem with my 95E. Perhaps I'm lucky there. The bottom of my UD does show that empties have been hitting it. The mounts that I have, I got from Larry when I purchased the pistol. They were only 10-15 bucks, and made by a company called Traditions I believe. Have you called Larry perhaps he could come up with a fix.. I've had much more problems with the one 9 round mag that came with the gun, the last round always sticks the bullet nose up into the top of the chamber..
I'm glad that I bought four 6 rounders when I got the gun as they have worked flawlessly. I too need optics. My 35M either has my second UD on it or I picked up a Bushnell NIB 2-6x32 pistol scope for 110.00 (store closeing) and am playing around with that mounted. I, as you do like the Benelli much better, but for the price those 35m's can't hardly be beaten!
If I can help feel free to write my email.
CraigJS
Just a thought, how about a Doctor sight? Mounted forward or back of eject port. Small but pricey..

deadin
October 22, 2005, 11:29 AM
CraigJS,
Our minds seem to be running in the same track. I just mounted a Doctor type sight forward on the barrel and am going to give it a try today. The sight is a rip-off on the Doctor at about a third the price, so it will probably have problems. (The adjustments don't seem to be the most stable things I've seen.) The one thing I have heard on this type of sight is that the dot gets hard to see in bright light conditions. (like outside). If it does seem to work, I guess I'll have to pony up for the real thing or maybe I'll get lucky with the one I have.

Dean

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