30-30, 30-06 & .357 carbine: compare/contrast


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Nematocyst
October 10, 2005, 04:02 AM
Howdy all,

I'm new to rifle country on THR, having spent most of my THR time in shotguns, handguns (both semi-auto's & revolvers), and strategies (love those bugout threads). So, please forgive any naivite in my question. (I grew up with rifles - .22, a Marlin 336 .35 deer rifle (so very sorry i sold that during the financial stress called "grad school"), and even an 1865 .58 caliber Springfield caplock, but have been away from them for about a decade, just now looking back in the direction of rifles again...)

Here's the background for my question. I currently own a 9 mm pistol (soon to be supplemented by a 12 ga {been too long since i owned a shottie), but am strongly considering adding a .357 magnum wheel gun. Current top choices: Shotgun: Rem 870P; revolver: Ruger SP 101, but $money for said guns is still weeks away & the verdict for the .357 revolver is still out...as discussed in other threads...)

One factor involved in my choice of the .357 is my recently acquired knowledge (thanks THR) that there are lever guns chambered for .357, but also (if you're lucky) .38 spl, notably a Marlin 1894C (current top contender for me over the Winchester, much like my beloved but lost Rem 336...but that's another thread). The potential of being able to buy one widely available cartridge (.357) that will work in a wheel gun and a lever gun is appealing to me. Simplicity is good, especially in a world increasingly prone to SHTF & TEOTWAWKI situations....

So to my question: even though i've heard of 30-30, 30-06 & .357 all my life, I really don't know how they compare with each other as rifle rnds. How do said rounds compare and contrast with each other?

The .357 handgun will be mostly used for SD/HD. But I'd like to entertain using the Marlin for hunting, especially deer, both white tail & mule (note my location).

So, how does that .357 cartridge fed through a rifle compare to a 30-30 and the more "powerful" 30-06 (ambiguity of the word "powerful" duly acknowledged).

I've done some reading in the archives, and have found some info about .357 rnds in lever gun carbines, & about 30-30 v. 30-06, but not much so far about hte latter two compared to the .357 in a carbine lever gun.

Thanks in advance for information & opinions.

Regards,

NemA

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bad LT
October 10, 2005, 04:16 AM
At close range, the 357 lever is a very valid deer gun with the right ammo. Check out these stats from Buffalo Bore:

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!

Maybe a 75 to a hundered yard gun max due to velocity losses from a short, fat bullet.

The 30/30 can reliably take deer out to 200 yards +.

The shooter is typically the limiting factor for how far a shooter can take game with a 30/06.

If you ever want to hunt anything bigger than a deer, get the 30/06.

And all the other ones too. :neener:

Kurush
October 10, 2005, 04:27 AM
Any of those should be OK for deer. 357 out of a carbine is pretty much like any other handgun cartridge in a carbine, it gains a bit of velocity but doesn't really make any difference.

Nematocyst
October 10, 2005, 05:03 AM
Kurush & BLT, thanks for your ideas.
(BLT: one of the most interesting, and humorous, signatures i've read in a while :D )

So, as long as we're talking about these calibers, and given i'm already questioning whether a .357 carbine is what I'm looking for - maybe it isn't so important that it shoots the same cartridge as my wheel gun, AND I can take a deer at 75 to 100 yds with a slug from an 870 - please allow me to expand my original question.

I prefer 1) a lever gun, or 2) bolt action. Thus, I'm pretty sure, based on past experience with a my 336 & my research so far, that if I go with a .357 carbine, it'll be a Marlin 1894C.

But what lever or bolt-action rifles chambered in 30-30 or 30-06 would you (and others) recommend?

Nem

bad LT
October 10, 2005, 06:16 AM
For a leveraction 30/30 I would recomend a Marlin or Winchester, whichever one feels better in your hands. I prefer the Marlin for a one piece receiver.

For a boltaction 30/06, I would recomend any common rifle from a major manfacuter (Remington 700s, Winchester Model 70s, Savage 110s, etc). The best deal going is probably on the Savages although the others are also very nice. Again, pick the one that feels best in your hands.

Nematocyst
October 10, 2005, 06:36 AM
BLT,

Thanks for recommendations.

I've been doing my homework tonight. Funny how many THR threads I've read so far about the virtues of the 30-06 rifle as a great caliber, but very few posts (that i've read so far) recommend specific makers & models.

Indeed, if I went with the 30-30 (unlikely now after all I've read of the 30-06), I'd go with a Marlin lever. But it appears they don't do the 30-06 in a lever gun. (I'm guessing that has something to do with pressures???).

I've found references to the Ruger #1 chambered in 30-06, but can't find any reference to that rifle on the Ruger site.

Haven't yet checked the Savages & Winchesters, but I've just discovered that Remington (who makes the 12 ga I'm about to buy) makes both bolt action (the 700) and a pump, their 7600. Both come with an option for a synthetic stock, which I like.

So, question: given that i'm buying a pump shotgun (870), and that having a rifle with the same action could be advantageous in terms of familiarity, and that the pump is less expensive than the bolt action, what are the pros & cons to the Remington pump 30-06 v. the bolt action.

My guess is that the latter is going to be more accurate with higher pressure, greater range & fps while the former will be characterized by a faster action, but that's just the musings of a relative novice and should be soundly dismissed if I'm wrong.

Many gracias.

Nem

USSR
October 10, 2005, 08:48 AM
...what are the pros & cons to the Remington pump 30-06 v. the bolt action.

Pump:
Pro - Fast to operate.
Con - Not very accurate.

Bolt:
Pro - Usually very accurate, positive extraction, easy to reload for.
Con - Not as fast operating as a pump.

Go with a bolt action with a good scope, and don't look back.

Don

MechAg94
October 10, 2005, 08:53 AM
For 30/06, you might consider a CMP Remington 1903A3. It will not be easy to mount a scope so it is mainly a consideration if you like military rifles. Garands are good options also.

Can't really tell you much about the new bolts except that I hear Savage makes a good one for the price.

pauli
October 10, 2005, 10:20 AM
But it appears they don't do the 30-06 in a lever gun. (I'm guessing that has something to do with pressures???).pressure, no. pointy bullets, yes.

most lever guns use a tube magazine, where bullet from one round is up against the primer of the next. 357, 30-30... these won't set one another off under recoil. 30-06... that spitzer bullet makes things rather dicey.

however, they *do* make lever guns in 30-06, they just don't have tube mags.

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl25-e.htm

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/itemdetails.asp?value=003B&cat_id=034&type_id=009&item=034009126

Father Knows Best
October 10, 2005, 11:01 AM
So, how does that .357 cartridge fed through a rifle compare to a 30-30 and the more "powerful" 30-06 (ambiguity of the word "powerful" duly acknowledged).

There isn't really any ambiguity here. The .357 is a handgun cartridge, albeit a quite powerful one. The .30-30 is a light rifle cartridge. The .30-06 is a full power rifle cartridge. It's like comparing a go-cart to an econobox to a sports car.

Handgun cartridges are designed for short range. They shoot quite heavy bullets at low velocities. The .357 moves quite fast for a handgun cartridge, but it's still typically quite a bit slower than a rifle cartridge. The bullet's aerodynamics are also poor, creating a lot of drag and slowing it down relatively quickly. So while the .357 becomes quite potent out a rifle length barrel, it will never match the performance of a true rifle cartridge at ranges beyond 75-100 yards. As you already seem to have noticed, you can take deer at that range with slugs from your 870, so a .357 rifle doesn't really give you a whole lot more capability than you already have.

The .30-30 is the classic American deer rifle. It was designed for the Winchester 1894 rifle. It will shoot flatter and farther than the .357. Range is still limited compared to a full power rifle cartridge, but it will be more than adequate for deer. You can take deer with it out to 300 or so yards if you have to (and actually take the time to practice with it so you can make those shots), but the odds of you having to make a shot on a deer -- or of such a long shot being safe -- are practically nil.

The .30-06 has enough range and power for anything you might want to hunt in North America. It will hit both you and your prey a lot harder than either the .357 or the .30-30. A rifle capable of shooting it will weigh more, too, so the .357 and .30-30 are handier and easier to carry. With a decent rifle and a little practice, though, you can consistently take deer-size game at 600 yards. This is the rifle for you if you expect to be hunting for really tough game or in wide open areas like the plains, desert southwest, etc. (where you can spot game from a long way away and set up safely for a shot, and there is little or no risk of hitting something you shouldn't).

Frankly, given what you've told us, I'd recommend the .30-30 first, with the .357 carbine coming in second.

Lupinus
October 10, 2005, 11:44 AM
I own a Model 94 Winchester 30-30

I have yet to go hunting with it but I hear good thing's about it's capability. And it is a nice, accurate weapon. For follow up shot's I find a lever action to be much easier then a bolt action.

Z_Infidel
October 10, 2005, 03:49 PM
Even if you do decide to go with the .30-30 or a .30-06 you might want to consider a .357 lever gun at some point. As a dedicated deer rifle I would choose either of those over a .357 but the .357 lever does have its merits -- it is capable of killing deer within its effective range, can be used for plinking, varmints, and in a defensive role. Perhaps you can buy a .357 and still find a used .30-30 for a good price, since they are somewhat plentiful.

If you want the benefit of common ammo between a rifle and revolver, then I suggest 158 gr jacketed hollow points for the .357 Mag. Soft points would be better for deer-sized game, but the JHPs will be effective for smaller game and self defense whereas soft points are less than ideal in a defensive role.

Carl N. Brown
October 10, 2005, 04:19 PM
Hornady Handloading manual shows that the gain
in velocity of a carbine 20" barrel over a handgun
in .357 is considerable, up to 500 fps depending
on load.

Other handgun rounds, like .45ACP, the gain is not
as dramatic: 50-100 fps for 16" carbine over 5" pistol.

Dienekes
October 10, 2005, 04:26 PM
Col. Townsend Whelen said it best: "The .30-06 is never a mistake".

A basic M70 or M700 with a 4 power fixed scope will do it all and your kids and grandkids will get to use it too.

As to 600 yard shots "with a little practice"---those are called nonresident hunters with more money than shooting skills or ethics.

sumpnz
October 10, 2005, 04:54 PM
.357 is, as already mentioned, a pistol cartridge. It does gain a fair amount from a carbine barrel, 400-600fps over a pistol depending on barrel lengths, powder, bullet, etc in a particular case. With the right loading it can take deer with authority out to 100+- yards. Typical muzzel velocity would be around 1800fps with a 158gr bullet, but some (like Buffalo Bore) will load a fair bit hotter than that. This is a great round if you'll be hunting in dense brush where a long shot is 50 yards. It's also a great plinking round from a carbine. Little recoil + fast action = lots of fun.

The .30-30 was developed in the 19th century and was one of the first metallic centerfire cartidges available. It's name comes from the fact that it used a .30 cal bullet and (originally) 30 grains of black powder. It shoots the same .308" bullet as all current American .30 caliber cartridges, but it typically has to use flat point bullets on account of the tube magazine that places the bullet tip against the primer of the round in front. Pointy bullets would risk a chain-fire in the magazine when the gun recoils or sustains any kind of shock (e.g. dropping). Most people consider it a max 200 yard deer round. Typical muzzel velocity is around 2200-2300fps with a 170gr bullet. Depending on stock design you might be surprised at how much a .30-30 can kick.

The .30-'06 was developed in (surprise, surprise) 1906, and was an evolution of the .30-03 from 1903. The .30-'03 fired a .308" 200gr round nose bullet around 2400fps and came about in response to the 8x57J cartridge from Mauser that debuted in 1898 (that shot a 220gr .318" round nose bullet at 2400ish fps). Then in 1905 Mauser changed that cartridge to the 8x57JS which operated at higher pressures and used a 154gr .323" spitzer (pointy) bullet at 2800fps. Not about to be outdone, us Yanks updated the .30-'03 to the levels of the JS and we had the .30-'06 shooting a (still) .308" 147gr spitzer bullet at 2800fps. These two cartridges defined the start of high-power rifle cartridges. This round is perfectly capable of humanely killing deer out to any range that you can accuratly place the bullet in the vitals of the animal.

As far as brands of guns, that really is a matter of personal preferance. Some good quality new production bolt action rifles are made by the likes of Winchester (M70), Remington (700), CZ (550), Savage (110), Tikka (T3), Sako (75), Ruger (M77 MkII), and I'm sure a number of others I'm forgetting. There are also a lot of great used bolties out there made by Husqurvarna, sporterized Mausers, and such.

Lever guns can be had from Marlin, Winchester, Rossi, Taurus, and Henry.

The Ruger #1 is a falling block single shot rifle. To work the action, you push down on a lever around the trigger guard. This causes the breech-block to move downwards (hence the name falling block) and extracts the spent casing (assuming you just fired) and allows you to manually insert the next round. One item of interest is that the #1 can be adjusted to either simply pull the brass out enough for you to pull it the rest of the way out (and therefore save it), or it can be set to fling the brass clear.

If you're a handloader, and like to go to nuclear levers with your loads, the #1 will let you do that (to a point - everything has its limits). Like all their guns, Ruger builds the #1 with a lot of extra metal around the high-load areas. Downside to that is Rugers are seldom considered light-weight, but they are also the most difficult to blow up.

Another advantage (to some anyway) with the #1 is that since it doesn't need hardly any space for the action you can either keep the rifle the same overall length as a typical bolt-action but have an extra 4" of barrel (the #1B Standard does this - it has a 26" barrel), or you can keep the barrel to the typical 22" and have a much more compact rifle (the #1A does this - 38.5" overall vs 42.5"). The #1RSI is even shorter yet with a 20" barrel (36.5" overall).

Father Knows Best
October 10, 2005, 05:18 PM
Excellent post, with one exception. You said:
The .30-30 was developed in the 19th century and was one of the first metallic centerfire cartidges available. It's name comes from the fact that it used a .30 cal bullet and (originally) 30 grains of black powder.

That's false. The .30-30 was developed in the 19th century, true, but it came quite late in the 19th century. Metallic centerfire cartridges had been around since at least the early 1870s, including ones that are common today like the .45-70 Government, .45 Colt, .44-40 (aka .44 Winchester Central Fire), etc. The .30-30 was introduced as the .30 Winchester Central Fire, or .30 WCF, in the early 1890s, and was one of the first cartridges specifically designed for the new SMOKELESS propellants. It is not and never was a black powder cartridge. I believe it was introduced along with the Winchester model 1894 rifle.

Vern Humphrey
October 10, 2005, 05:30 PM
The .30 Winchester Central Fire (WCF) was the first smokeless powder sporting cartridge. It debuted in 1895, in the then-new 1894 Winchester. Metalic cartridges of one caliber or another had been around for about 40 years by this time, and had almost completely supplanted muzzle loaders.

The .30 US Army preceeded the .30 WCF by about 3 years and was already popularly called the ".30-40" because it held about 40 grains of smokeless powder. Calling the .30 WCF the ".30-30" was a natural.

It didn't hurt that the .30 WCF was so popular that Remington, Marlin, and others found themselves chambering rifles for this cartridge. Calling it the ".30-30" kept them from having to stamp their rifles with the dreaded "WCF" or mention their competitor, Winchester.

The .32 Special was developed by Winchester a little later to offer a similar smokeless powder cartridge that could be reloaded with black powder.

mustanger98
October 10, 2005, 05:39 PM
So to my question: even though i've heard of 30-30, 30-06 & .357 all my life, I really don't know how they compare with each other as rifle rnds. How do said rounds compare and contrast with each other?

Okay, now some of my knowledge comes from Hornady's 5th edition load manual, some from gun magazines, and some from having shot all three calibers.

.30-30 and .30-06: they're both .308" diameter bullets. Factory loads for .30-30 will be 150gr and 170gr flat nose SP's. The 150gr will run about 2300fps. .30-06 ammo will be 150gr or 180gr and run more like 2900fps. now, in handloads, you see a lot more variety in bullet weights and speeds for both calibers.

.357 fired from a rifle- I know it'll hit accurately at 100yds and a 158 or 180 grain jacketed bullet can have speed and killing power comparable to a .30-30. It'll even carry accurately to 200yds, but power's falling off by that time because of the type bullet and smaller powder charge and shorter burn time.

The .357 handgun will be mostly used for SD/HD. But I'd like to entertain using the Marlin for hunting, especially deer, both white tail & mule (note my location).

You can get some hot loads for the .357 handgun and they'll run 1300fps. They'll gain 300fps fired from a 16" barreled carbine or 18" short rifle so you up the speed to 1600fps from the longer barrel. I'd say keep your shots within 100yds with a .357mag long gun with a heavier expanding bullet and it should do fine. Shot placement is the key though- put it through the upper lungs and they won't go far.

So, how does that .357 cartridge fed through a rifle compare to a 30-30 and the more "powerful" 30-06 (ambiguity of the word "powerful" duly acknowledged).

Well, aside from what I've already said, get shot with a rifle-launched .357 and you're just as shot as if you'd been hit with a .30-06. The .357 just runs out of gas a lot sooner. The .30-06 will carry accurately to 800+yds, but the groups get bigger with the increased distance.

I've done some reading in the archives, and have found some info about .357 rnds in lever gun carbines, & about 30-30 v. 30-06, but not much so far about hte latter two compared to the .357 in a carbine lever gun.

I can't think of anything right off, not having read through the thread, that I haven't already said. After I read all the other posts, I'm sure I'll be reminded of something.

Pietro Beretta
October 10, 2005, 05:42 PM
Winchester OR Marlin both make great Lever Action rifles for the 30-30.

I went with the Marlin because #1 It was easier to strip down to clean. #2 Ejecting from the side, instead of from the top(Like the winnie) seemd "right."

Nematocyst
October 10, 2005, 05:48 PM
Wow. Great posts & great advice for helping me sort this out (not to mention some cool history). :)

I'm at work at the moment, so have only read today's posts quickly. Late tonight, after work, I'll give them another more careful reading.

More opinions and ideas are of course encouraged.

Many thanks. ;)

Nem

Shear_stress
October 10, 2005, 08:03 PM
Hey, Nematocyst. As you are in the Pacific Northwest, see if you can swing by the local Bi-Mart. They keep the Marlin in stock and sometimes have incredible deals on them. Not sure if this makes a difference to you, but the ones at Bi-mart have walnut stocks, rather than the birch available at other chain stores.

Otherwise, check Big5. They usually have a running sale on either the Marlin or Winchester.

I miss Bi-mart.

greg531mi
October 10, 2005, 08:08 PM
What about the 308 Winchester??????????? A great carbine round!!!!

redneck2
October 10, 2005, 08:25 PM
One factor involved in my choice of the .357 is my recently acquired knowledge (thanks THR) that there are lever guns chambered for .357, but also (if you're lucky) .38 spl, notably a Marlin 1894C (current top contender for me over the Winchester, much like my beloved but lost Rem 336...but that's another thread). The potential of being able to buy one widely available cartridge (.357) that will work in a wheel gun and a lever gun is appealing to me. Simplicity is good, especially in a world increasingly prone to SHTF & TEOTWAWKI situations....

Haven't seen anyone else suggest a better (as in bigger) caliber rather than the .357. Have you considered something like a .44 Mag or 45 LC?? It would fit the "commonly available" criteria and is rather formidable in a rifle

I have a .45 LC in both a Ruger Bisley and a Rossi levergun. I'd feel quite comfortable with either in the deer woods. HTH

stoky
October 10, 2005, 08:35 PM
As others have pointed out the .357 is a pistol cartridge. It can be a lot of fun in a lever action carbine, but you are pretty much limited to 100yds as a practical effective range.
The .30-30 can approximately double the .357 range and is a fine deer cartridge.
The .308 and .30-06 are true rifle cartridges, very similar in performance. The 06 has an edge at longer ranges with heavier bullets. Some of the more serious target shooters say that the .308 is inherently more accurate.

Oldnamvet
October 10, 2005, 08:40 PM
The ruger lever action in .44 mag has surprised me. I typically get around 2+ inch groups from sandbags at 100 yds using hornady 300 gr XTP bullets. Any deer at that range would have a really bad day.

Also when considering accuracy, consider the circumstances. I have a Rem 7600 in .30-06. On a good day with reloads I get 1.5" groups. With my savage bolt, I can get 3/4" groups. But when I am hunting, adrenaline is flowing, and I don't have a sandbag rest, I can't tell the difference in accuracy.

Titus
October 10, 2005, 08:48 PM
I have a Rem 7600 in .30-06. On a good day with reloads I get 1.5" groups.

All the 7600s I've seen have been capable of that or better. I think someone already said it, get a 7600 AND an 1894c.

Pietro Beretta
October 10, 2005, 09:30 PM
If you do go to Big5 ALWAYS ask if "Thats the best price you can do"

They always go on "sale" 1 month it will be the winchester, 3 months later it will be the marlin. If you ask for the best possible price, they will give you the "sale price" if its not on sale at that point in time.

(They did for me at least, for my Marlin, and Mossberg)

Cosmoline
October 10, 2005, 09:41 PM
So to my question: even though i've heard of 30-30, 30-06 & .357 all my life, I really don't know how they compare with each other as rifle rnds. How do said rounds compare and contrast with each other?


The .357 is the first handgun "magnum" round and was created based on hot .38 Special loads in the 1930's. The .357 out of a handgun can reach about 600 ft. lbs. Out of a carbine it picks up a lot of juice, but is still inferior in power to a high powered rifle round. Also, the FN design of most of its projectiles seriously limit its effectiveness over range. I would say it's a sweet cartridge for close range shots at *smaller* members of the deer family.

The .30-30 is an early smokeless powder rifle cartridge from the 1890's. Its rimmed bottleneck design is considered archaic and is similar in shape and origin to the 7.62x54R and .30-40 Krag. The big benefit of the design is that it seems to be more tolerant of headspace variation. The big drawback is rimlock in a box magazine. The .30-30 is a fairly low-powered round hitting with between 1,800 and maybe 2,200 ft. lbs. If fired from a levergun spitzer bullets cannot be used, again decreasing its effectiveness over range. That said it's a proven deer killer inside of 150 yards and is loads of fun. The ammo can be oddly expensive in spite of its ubquity, so handloading is a real good idea. Barnes makes some cool hunting bullets just for the .30-30 that are worth getting. It's a really good cartridge for home defense, though few will admit this. It's also seen a lot of unofficial use in rural law enforcement, esp. before cops started getting AR's. It's powerful enough to blow a goblin down hard, but not so powerful it will deafen everyone or overpenetrate too badly.

The .30'06 was America's answer to German's ultra high-tech high-velocity 8x57JS and its spitzer bullet in the runup to WWI. It's based on a stretched out 7x57 Mauser catridge and is in the same Mauser family even if its adherents don't always want to admit it. Loaded to WWI or WWII ball levels its about as potent as a .308, but its big cartridge has a lot more potential and can be cranked up to very impressive light magnum levels. Its power ranges from around 2,300 to 3,100 ft. lbs. and it can fire a very wide array of rounds from little sabot zippers to honking great 220 and 250 grain crossbow bolts. This gives it tremendous versatiliy and power.

mustanger98
October 10, 2005, 10:44 PM
MechAg94:
For 30/06, you might consider a CMP Remington 1903A3. It will not be easy to mount a scope so it is mainly a consideration if you like military rifles. Garands are good options also.

I would recommend a Garand or 03A3 any time.

Can't really tell you much about the new bolts except that I hear Savage makes a good one for the price.

Savage's Model 11 bolt action rifle- mine being a left handed .243Winchester- is a good rifle at a good price.

Savage used to make the Model 340 in, among other calibers, .30-30. I just picked up a pretty nice one. I'll have to tell ya'll how it does when I get to the range and shoot it.

stoky:
As others have pointed out the .357 is a pistol cartridge. It can be a lot of fun in a lever action carbine, but you are pretty much limited to 100yds as a practical effective range.

That's it's sure enough effective killing range for a hunting situation, but until it loses enough umph to fall below 300fps, it's not through being potentially lethal. I wouldn't recommend anything but a sure thing kill shot with a heavy loaded .357mag carbine. Having said that, I have hunted deer with .357 and .30-30 and have no qualms about it.

The .30-30 can approximately double the .357 range and is a fine deer cartridge.

Actually, if you handload spitzers (not in a tube magazine fed levergun) .30-30's effective out to 300yds if the shooter does his/her part. But for a lightweight brush/walking gun, I don't think you can really go wrong with a .357mag carbine/short rifle loaded with 158-180gr flat nosed SPs.

The .308 and .30-06 are true rifle cartridges, very similar in performance. The 06 has an edge at longer ranges with heavier bullets. Some of the more serious target shooters say that the .308 is inherently more accurate.

While .308 and .30-06 are considered "full power" rifle cartridges, they're no truer a rifle cartridge than .30-30. I know this because I shoot .30-30 and .30-06 ('94 and M1, respectively). I think the key to the '06's advantage as a long range hunting deal is the heavier bullets, between 180 and 220 grains. Whether a .30-06 or .308 either one is more accurate than the other depends on the ammo recipe, the rifle, and the shooter. But according to Layne Simpson in this month's Shooting Times, very good accuracy and killing power can be had out to 300yds by handloading the .30-30 with spitzer hunting bullets.

Cosmoline:
The .357 is the first handgun "magnum" round and was created based on hot .38 Special loads in the 1930's.

The difference between .38spl and .357mag is .1" of case length to accomodate a little more propelant without overpressurizing.

The .357 out of a handgun can reach about 600 ft. lbs. Out of a carbine it picks up a lot of juice, but is still inferior in power to a high powered rifle round. Also, the FN design of most of its projectiles seriously limit its effectiveness over range. I would say it's a sweet cartridge for close range shots at *smaller* members of the deer family.

Get shot with a .357magnum rifle and you're just as shot as with an '06. The flat nosed projectiles may not fly as far but they're just as deadly when they do hit. Smaller members of the deer family? Put a 158-180gr SP running 1500-1600fps through a deer's upper lungs and he ain't going far.

The .30-30 is an early smokeless powder rifle cartridge from the 1890's. Its rimmed bottleneck design is considered archaic and is similar in shape and origin to the 7.62x54R and .30-40 Krag.

If you take an objective look at .30-30, it ain't so archaic looking. Although it is from the 1890's, it's just as deadly within 200 with factory loads (300yds with spitzer handloads) as any supershorthyperfastultrafatmagnum. How far is the average hunting shot made? Usually within 100-150yds max. Mostly within 50-75yds, but it depends on location. Oh, BTW, you forgot to insult .303 British while you were at it and a lot of deer have been killed with it too. A cartridge don't have to be recess-rimmed to be effective. It's the bullet and powder charge that matters, as well as the shooter's ability to place the bullet.

The big benefit of the design is that it seems to be more tolerant of headspace variation. The big drawback is rimlock in a box magazine. The .30-30 is a fairly low-powered round hitting with between 1,800 and maybe 2,200 ft. lbs.

That's why you stack 'em in the mag so each has it's rim ahead of the rim below it. Again, get shot with a .30-30 and your just as shot as with anything else.

If fired from a levergun spitzer bullets cannot be used, again decreasing its effectiveness over range. That said it's a proven deer killer inside of 150 yards and is loads of fun. The ammo can be oddly expensive in spite of its ubquity, so handloading is a real good idea. Barnes makes some cool hunting bullets just for the .30-30 that are worth getting.

Actually, you can use spitzer bullets in leverguns by chambering one round and loading one in the tube mag. You have to be real particular about one in the mag. Also, I mentioned some bolt actions floating around the marketplace chambered in .30-30 and I managed to snag one a couple of weeks ago. I go back to that Shooting Times article on handloading the .30-30. If you don't handload, ammo ranges from from $8 to $15 per 20rds.

It's a really good cartridge for home defense, though few will admit this. It's also seen a lot of unofficial use in rural law enforcement, esp. before cops started getting AR's. It's powerful enough to blow a goblin down hard, but not so powerful it will deafen everyone or overpenetrate too badly.

I don't understand why so few will admit to .30-30 being good for home defense. .30-30 has probably killed more varmints (two-legged and four) than any so-called varmint cartridge.

The .30'06 was America's answer to German's ultra high-tech high-velocity 8x57JS and its spitzer bullet in the runup to WWI. It's based on a stretched out 7x57 Mauser catridge and is in the same Mauser family even if its adherents don't always want to admit it.

I've known for some time from my reading that .30-06 and 8mm Mauser are balisticly nearly equivilent. Also, 8mm and '06 are based in the same case with the same sized case head. If the two are chambered in appropriately barreled K98's, they'll use the same stripper clips.

Vern Humphrey
October 10, 2005, 10:54 PM
I don't understand why so few will admit to .30-30 being good for home defense.

Probably because a shotgun is a better choice for home defense than any rifle.

mustanger98
October 10, 2005, 11:27 PM
Well, that's just it; a short shotgun's always better in close quarters than most anything. But, Sheriff Jim Wilson said he used a Marlin '94 in .44magnum on drug raids. A .30-30 will do the same duty in a pinch (which a HD situation is) as quick as anything. But some people think you have to have something specifically for disabling a threat. You know, back in the old days, most folks probably only had one or two, maybe three guns, and one of those was probably a shotgun for versatility. If it'll put meat on the table, it'll save your life in a pinch. Hence those who have a levergun handy reaching for it in that pinch. I'm not trying to argue anything here really. Just taking an objective look at how many uses one gun has and how many guns will do in a pinch.

FWIW, my bedside gun is either a 1911A1 or a .357 revolver. I like both. Some folks deer hunt with .357 revolvers and I wouldn't be past it. Under Georgia state hunting regulations, any centerfire handgun is legal to deer hunt with. I have some HP/XTP handloads (850fps and normally thought to be defensive) in .45ACP I beleive would do the job bringing down a deer. That doesn't mean I would normally use them (unless really up close) as I have some .45Colt handloads with HP/XTP's loaded to run 1200-1250fps for a Ruger's Blackhawk/Vaquero. I would say both are multi purpose loads, but one is better for deer hunting than the other.

But, now we've gotten away from the purpose of this thread.

Somebody mentioned getting a .44magnum revolver/carbine, or something to that effect and while that sounds good, I recall a real good arguement made for the .357mag based on kinetic energy and shock over the .44mag.

MechAg94
October 11, 2005, 12:04 AM
Don't the .44 mag and .357 mag have similar velocities? I am not real familiar, but I am sure someone else is.

My .44 mag lever gun is longer than a short shotgun, but it holds 12 rounds in the tube. My old .357 mag Rossi has messed up sights, but it is short, handy, and holds 8 rounds. I'll take those over my full length shotguns. Buckshot won't spread at short home distances anyway. If I have more prep time, mag fed rifles would rule.

Cosmoline
October 11, 2005, 02:18 AM
If you take an objective look at .30-30, it ain't so archaic looking.

I'm not trying to dis the cartridge, but like my own beloved 54R it *IS* by definition archaic. That's neither good nor bad. It's just a fact. To my knowledge nobody has designed a new rifle cartridge that uses a heavy rim and a bottleneck case for a very long time. Certainly the trend has been to rimless rifle cartridges headspacing on the shoulder and to a lesser extent on the belt for magnums.

That's why you stack 'em in the mag so each has it's rim ahead of the rim below it. Again, get shot with a .30-30 and your just as shot as with anything else.

Did I ever say anything different? Obviously the cure for rimlock is to be careful about loading the magazine--or using a tube magazine. So what? My point was simply that potential rimlock is a drawback, and it is.


Actually, you can use spitzer bullets in leverguns by chambering one round and loading one in the tube mag.

YOU can. I'm not going to do it :D And I would never advise anyone else to try it. There are as you say some .30-30 bolt actions around as well as T-C's and other single shots and combination guns. For someone wanting to load spitzers in a .30-30, that's the way to go.

mustanger98
October 11, 2005, 02:58 AM
Well, if somebody wants to consider anything over 90 years old archaic, .30-06 falls in there too, what with all these newfangled SM's and SSM's coming out. I don't see either of these to chamberings slowing down any.

Look back at my entire comment on spitzers in tube mags:
Actually, you can use spitzer bullets in leverguns by chambering one round and loading one in the tube mag. You have to be real particular about one in the mag.

First off, I never said I would. I said, using "you" in the editorial sense, that it can be done. The shooter who does this must remember only one round goes in the magazine. But, I agree it's not something to be doing. Although I have single loaded spitzers in my '94 on the bench, I wouldn't be doing this or recommending in the field. That's part of why I snagged that 340 Savage.

pbhome71
October 11, 2005, 03:08 AM
It seems to me that there are a couple of posts a week about 357/44 magnum lever rifle.

I have been thinking about getting one for the last 3 years, but have not get around to get one.

This week, a Marlin 357 magnum is now on sale for $319.99.
I think I'll go to Big5 and pick one up tomorrow. :D

-Pat

Cosmoline
October 11, 2005, 03:34 AM
Well, if somebody wants to consider anything over 90 years old archaic, .30-06 falls in there too, what with all these newfangled SM's and SSM's coming out. I don't see either of these to chamberings slowing down any.


You still don't seem to understand, the DESIGN is archaic. I never said the age alone made the .30-30 archaic. The basic Mauser family starting with te 7x57, 8x57 and so on is just as old but its design is not archaic. Nobody uses the heavy rimmed bottleneck design for modern cartridges. At least it's extremely rare. Maybe you could dig up a TC cartridge using the basic design or something--I don't have Cartridges of the World handy. But there's no doubt that the pattern largely died out by the second world war and we have only a few survivors still in common use, including the 54R and the .30-30. I did not use the term moribund because there are these survivors and they're doing quite well. But they're absoultely archaic designs--throwbacks to a much earlier era. That's one reason I like them.

mr.trooper
October 11, 2005, 03:42 AM
HEY GUYS...

he asked for a recomendation, not a debate over cartridge oragins. :rolleyes:

.357 carbine - A dandy deer rifle. Awesome with carbine only hand loads. 100yards or less on deer.

30-30. Great deer gun. Despite the bull-hocky of some people, it will do just fine on larger game such as elk at slightly shorter ranges, and with a good shot. Once upon a time the Remington 700 was chambered in 30-30. if you can find one GET IT. SNATCH IT UP LIKE THE DICKENS! Not only will this produce better accuracy, but the box mag will alow you to use spitzer type bullets, and throw of the ugly BC of the 170gr flat-point. But a lever action is fine also.

30-06.....Get a bolt gun. If it were me, id buy the savage. I will NEVER buy another bolt rifle withough accutriger. i can rant all day long, but it still wouldnt begin to say what an improvement accutriger is over standard.

if you want my personal recomendation...Get a Marlin 336 in 35Rem. You had one once, so your already familiar with it. the 35 hits a little bit harder, (about 2-3 hundred foot pounds at the muzzle) and a round-nose 200gr has a better BC than any round or flat nosed 30 cal iv ever seen a spec sheet for. Slap on a weaver scout mount and a red dot sight, and your set for Deer well past 200 yards, and youv even got a little more oomph if you decide to hunt something bigger.

Nematocyst
October 11, 2005, 04:10 AM
if you want my personal recomendation...Get a Marlin 336 in 35Rem. i've been thinking about a 336 chambered in .35 today, like the one i once had, and have repeatedly said to self and others, i was just stupid to have sold it. (kinda like a couple of women i let walk away :( , but that's another story....)

nice to see someone recommend it.

as much as i respect the .44 advocates, and even though the 30-06 appeals for that touted "takes any game in NA", for those long ranges (even though i hear what several have said about most kills being under 200 m), and I will handle some of the 30-06 bolts ... still, there's just something about that lever action 336 that just keeps calling me back.

i'm wondering though: if the SHTF, and TEOTWAWKI really did happen (just a hypothetical situation, mind you), would .35 be as readily available as 30-30?

Nematocyst
October 11, 2005, 06:33 AM
there's just something about that lever action 336 that just keeps calling me back. But then, this one (http://www.remington.com/firearms/centerfire/7600syn.htm) in a 30-06 carbine also attracts my attention.

Nematocyst
October 11, 2005, 06:59 AM
This (http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7600.htm) just in...

:what: ;) :D

mustanger98
October 11, 2005, 04:48 PM
You know, Cosmoline, if that new caseless ammo and electronic ingnition ever catches on, they'll be saying anything brass-cased and using a firing pin is archaic. (I don't think it will, but unfortunately somebody went and said that about the horseless carriage.) But then, there's enough of us who can agree that we like "old stuff"... I see your reasoning from your last post about defining archaic. But, what I tend to think of as really archaic is anything older and less advanced than a Hawken. :cool:

Nematocyst-870, Get the 336 in .35 or .30-30 either one and don't look back. It's a toss up as to which ones better. You might find .30-30 ammo a mite easier to find. I've heard .35 kicks harder but you're driving a heavier bullet.

Cosmoline
October 11, 2005, 04:53 PM
.30-30 is much easier to find in these parts. .35 seems to be kind of a dying cartridge.

huntsman
October 12, 2005, 02:15 AM
a great two gun battery:
Marlin 336 in 30-30 and a Ruger NO1 tropical in .375HH

kahr404life
October 12, 2005, 02:48 AM
I believe the Rem 7600P rifle in .308 (can find that caliber anywhere) would serve your needs. The 7600P is the new police model. It has ghost ring sights, 16inch barrel, and is tapped for a scope mount (Eotech Holo sight :D ). The only negative side is the low factory magazine capacity (5 rounds) but after market magazines hold up to 10 rounds. As you don't want to get into a prolonged gun fight if the SHTF the mag capacity should not be a problem (snipe then run :evil: ). If recoil is a issue Rem also makes the 7600P in .223 and it takes AR-15 mags :what: . Browning makes the BLR (lever action) in 30/06 if you must have that caliber. I also like th .357 carbines but they have limited range and power for hunting game. I think the choices you have discussed: Kahr, SP101, 870p, 7600P? would make a fine SHTF armory (covers all bases).

mr.trooper
October 12, 2005, 02:54 AM
Thats funny...last time i went to the hunting section of the local park'n shop, there was almost twice as much 35rem stocked as 30-30. :scrutiny:

Nematocyst
October 12, 2005, 05:48 AM
I believe the Rem 7600P rifle in .308 (can find that caliber anywhere) would serve your needs. The 7600P is the new police model. It has ghost ring sights, 16inch barrel, and is tapped for a scope mount (Eotech Holo sight :D). So, I gotta admit this: despite many fine recommendations in this thread (sincerely, thanks for your advice) about lever guns of several calibers (mostly 30-30) & bolt actions (including 30-06), I'm still currently (read "last 24 hours") most attracted to the 7600P.

Admittedly, I've not handled any of them yet (except for my long, lost Marlin 336 .35...baby, where are you now? I hope your current owner is treating you well ... :( )

But, something about the 7600P - profile, kick butt carbine look, pump action similar to the 870P, Rem's own description of the rifle - something is very appealing about it. It just looks ... functional, efficient as a hunter for < 200 m, compact (easy to carry), business-like & (yes, i admit it) BAD. :evil:

If someone laid $700 in my hands and told me I had to choose a lever gun tomorrow, it'd be a Marlin 336 in 30-30 or .35, plus the rest of the $700 in rnds. Hands down, no argument.

If the same deal applied to a bolt action 30-06 ... hmmm, verdict is still out.

But if I had the same $X and was left to my own devices, I'd buy that 7600P in a proverbial New York instant.

Now, I invite you to talk me out of this idea. Shake me intellectually and tell me what a fool I am for thinking of a pump .308 with a 16" barrel and ghost ring sights.

Go ahead; make my day. Even though i acknowledge that the decision will be mine alone, I'm listening to your advice, and appreciate your thoughts.

Nem ;)

Cosmoline
October 12, 2005, 06:17 AM
You have a good eye, those patrol rifles are pretty cool. For some reason pump action centerfire rifles have never caught on much, but there's nothing wrong with them at all.

rbernie
October 12, 2005, 08:48 AM
If you get a pump-action shottie, the 7600 will feel very similar; there's nothing wrong with standardizing on a manual of arms and a lot of good to be said for it.

Picking the 7600 wouldn't be my first choice (based admittedly on one poor experience with a late-model 7400), but if does have some logic to it *if* it also appeals to you.

Nematocyst
October 12, 2005, 05:27 PM
Cosmoline & Rbernie, thanks for the positive feedback.

If you get a pump-action shottie, the 7600 will feel very similar; there's nothing wrong with standardizing on a manual of arms and a lot of good to be said for it. Rbernie, that's actually a big part of my reasoning about the 7600. I have definitely decided that the Rem 870P is going to be my shotgun (I've known that for a couple of months, based in many hours of research with the help of many on THR, and on handling a bunch of models.)

So, I'm thinking that a pump for the rifle makes sense. I believe strongly in the idea of "muscle memory" - athletes know it well - and having a similar design and action for both my long guns could be a positive thing.

The biggest decision I think I'd have if i go with the 7600 will be: standard 'hunting' 7600 (http://www.remington.com/firearms/centerfire/7600syn.htm) in a 30-06 with 18.5" barrel, or 7600P in a .308 with that 16.5" barrel.

Admittedly, I'm not a LEO (except in astrological terms {which i don't buy into, by the way}), and I'm honestly more interested in a 7600 for hunting than for SD (pistols & shottie are more for SD/HD).

Still, there's something - almost intangible, based entirely so far on images alone - about that 7600P that appeals. I'll have to admit it could be an attraction to the 'dark side'. :evil:

Today is my 'day off', so I'm heading to my local gun store this afternoon to handle a few lever guns, bolts & - hopefully - pumps in larger calibers. I'll know more after that.

Rbernie, even though I recognize that the 7400 is a semiauto, which I'm not considering, I'd be interested in hearing more about what the issue was that you had. PM is fine if you'd rather not share that publically.

Thanks,

Nem

Working Man
October 12, 2005, 06:57 PM
Metallic centerfire cartridges had been around since at least the early 1870s, including ones that are common today like the .45-70 Government, .45 Colt, .44-40 (aka .44 Winchester Central Fire), etc.

No to nit-pick but it was the .45-70-500 back then. :evil:

BluesBear
October 13, 2005, 04:49 AM
The US Military referred to it as the .45 Government. Just as they had called it's predecessor the .50 Government while almost everyone else called it the 50-70.

And I thought the 405gr loading came first? So that means that the .45-40- 405 would be the US Government round. And I seem to recall that the Carbine loading for calvary use used a 300gr bullet. So that would mean that the .45-70-300 could also be called the .45 Government.

I was also under the impresion that the 500gr loading didn't come about until the heavy fallingblock rifles came along and became popular with the buffalo slaughterers.


But then I could also be wrong again.

SwampWolf
October 13, 2005, 04:03 PM
Nematocyst: You seem to be interested in a carbine for deer hunting. I've got a lot of centerfire rifles (including Savage99, Remington 760, Winchester 94 and 1886 carbines, and several bolt-action varities) but the one that feels, handles and looks the best to me is my Ruger 77 International Model in .308 cal. It is short, handy, and uses a short-action that fires a flat -shooting,powerful, accurate, easily obtainable and relatively inexpensive cartridge. I topped mine with a 2X7 Leupold compact scope.

Of course this rifle has a "Mannlicher" style stock and it's been my experience that people either love or hate the full-length configuration. My International accurately (no pun intended) reflects my sentiments in the matter.

ojibweindian
October 13, 2005, 04:27 PM
If you like the 30-06, and like a lever gun, go buy a Winchester Model '95. Be prepared to pay for it, though, as they're not cheap.

Vern Humphrey
October 13, 2005, 04:37 PM
You might take a look at the Browning Lever Rifle (BLR) as well.

BluesBear
October 14, 2005, 05:27 AM
The steel used in the original 1895 Winchester just won't hold up to a steady diet of modern hunting ammunition.

The Browning BLR is the only lever action rifle really stong enough for serious use.

Working Man
October 14, 2005, 10:43 AM
BluesBear thanks for the info. I thought they started off with the 3
part name first then moved to the shortened version.


edit:
Found it... As originally loaded and adopted by the U.S. Army in 1873, the .45-70 Gov't used 70 grs. of blackpowder to lob a 405-gr., all-lead bullet...

But I also found this... The U.S. Army had introduced and adopted the .45/70 in 1873 for its single shot "trap door" Springfield rifle. Shooting a 500-grain lead bullet.

Carl N. Brown
October 14, 2005, 04:19 PM
The .45-70 was loaded .45-70-405 and .45-70-500 for infantry rifles
and .45-55-405 for cavalry carbines, same casing though,
different charges and bullet weights.

And the .30-40 Krag and .30-03 and .30-06 Springfield were
all called .30 Government.

Oh, back to the original question: 30-30 30-06 and 357 carbine:
.30-30 is about two-thirds the power of the .30-06 at least on
paper ballistics (or the .30-06 is 50% more powerful).
.357 Magnum from a carbine length barrel is much more powerful
than the same cartridge in a revolver length barrel: I damaged
my 3/8" thick steel swinging target firing at it with a .357 carbine.
But it is not as powerful as the .30-30.

--------
edit for rusty memory

Nematocyst
October 14, 2005, 05:14 PM
For those with little time to read, and no interest in why I'm asking this question, I'll cut to the chase:
can anyone provide information about the range of bullet sizes & types available for .308 Win in factory rounds?

In particular, I'm interested in how the range of options for the .308 compares to the great diversity available for the .30-06.

Either your own knowledge, or a web site or THR thread would be greatly appreciated. :)
______

Here's the why part if you are interested.

I'm still trying to make a decision between 30-30, .35, 30-06 & .308. I'm not in a hurry about this: buying a rifle is still weeks to months away for me, so I'm doing my homework early, and very much enjoying the research.

OK, I'll own up to my ignorance again about the larger calibers (even though I'm chipping away at that ignorance): I did not know until last night that .308 Win is a widely available caliber, is a military caliber and will fire (is roughly equivalent to) 7.62X51mm NATO. Very interesting. And, from what I'm reading, it's one of the most accurate cartridges out there.

OK, so .308 has my interest and attention.

I'm still considering .30-30 because it's widely available, relatively low recoil, and I'm just pining to own another Marlin 336 lever gun (again, stupidly sold mine years ago).

The problem: I can only afford (and really only want) one rifle right now, and I want it to be as much all-purpose as possible. Sort of a SAF (swiss army knife). AND the .30-30 has limited options for bullet size unless one is a reloader, which I'm not. (At least yet...and would prefer not to be right now. Too many irons in my fire already.) For factory loads, I'm finding the .30-30 to be limited mostly to 150 & 170 gr. Fine for deer, but in a SHTF scenario and I'm out of canned sardines and spam, but can't find a deer, I may want to shoot a varmit or even a big jack rabbit, and a 150 gr seems a smidgen big for that.

So, I'm really attracted to the .30-06 for it's range of options bullet wise. Seems like one can get everything from varmit rnds to 200+ gr for the bigger mammals. That's appealing. I'm finding lots of information about that range.

However, for reasons explained elsewhere in this thread, I'm leaning more towards either a lever gun or a pump than a bolt action since I'm already familiar and comfortable with both. But .30-06 isn't available in either of those in a gun that I'm attracted to (yet; I do acknowledge the recommendations made earlier; thanks).

The Rem 7600P is available in .308. I like it's looks. For various reasons, I'm interested in the shorter barrel, and for now, the ghost ring sights. (I won't rule out a scope for later.) I haven't handled one yet, but have I resolved to travel if I must to do so.

But I'm having a bit of trouble finding information about bullet size & type ranges for the .308 and how it compares to the diversity of the '06. Hence my question.

As always, thanks for any info and the continuing opinions.

Nem

SwampWolf
October 14, 2005, 06:54 PM
The .308 vs. the 30-06; always good fodder for gun writers needing something interesting to write about. Most of us are pretty bored with the argument by now.
I own and use both calibers and can assure you that both address the same general purposes and uses and that you will [I]not I] go wrong with either choice. The 30-06 used to offer a slightly broader range of bullet weights (I'm doing this from memory as I'm away from my "library" at the moment, so please forgive any dated recollections), ranging from 110 gr. to 220 gr., while the .308 went from 120 gr. to 200 gr. (referring to factory loads only).
Both rounds are widely available and priced about the same.
The main advantage of the 30-06 is a slightly superior ballistic edge (between 100 and 200 fps velocity with equivalent bullet type and weight). The 308's advantages are slightly less recoil, slightly better accuracy (individual rifles will vary, of course) and the use of a slightly shorter action length to accomodate the shorter cartridge.
I like them both but, if forced to choose between the two, I'd opt for the .308 (7.62 NATO). Happily, this is one instance where you really can't lose!

BluesBear
October 14, 2005, 11:55 PM
N-870 you can compare them here. (http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/ballistics.htm)

crackerjack
October 15, 2005, 02:13 AM
You may want to fire a pump rifle before purchasing. I have had several Remington 30/06 pump carbines they were extremely accurate off the bench , but I had a hard time free hand shooting as the forearm is not fixed and pivots. Shorter barrels normaly produce more muzzle flash and engry drops at longer range. Reference to 30/06 vs 308 if largest game is of consideration go 06 if medium game go 308 it is usually lighter, shorter action and less recoil, But you want go wrong with either caliber and there is quite an overlap of the two.
Hope it helps

Nematocyst
October 17, 2005, 06:24 AM
SwampWolf, BluesBear & Crackerjack, thanks for your ideas.

B'Bear, that's a cool web page that Remington has, and very useful. Great they've set it up so one can compare three cartridges at once. I've already spent some time on it. More to come soon.

the forearm is not fixed and pivots Crackerjack, that is an interesting point that I hadn't considered. I'll be sure to pay attention to that when looking at them. I may not have an op to shoot one before buying, but I suspect I could get a sense of what effect it could have just by handling it.

That looseness, for lack of a better word, is one reason I'll be buying an 870P shotgun instead of a regular 870. The 870P is machined a bit better than the 870. The action is noticably tigher in a side by side comparison (at least in my mind). I suspect the same may be true of the 7600P v. the standard 7600, which is why I'm considering the former over the latter even though I'd lose two inches of barrel length. (Not so much an issue for me though; I don't expect to try shots much over 100 yds.)

BluesBear
October 17, 2005, 09:56 PM
Don't overlook the Remington 7615.
It's a pump carbine chambered in .223 that accepts all AR-15 magazines. :evil:

Years ago I had a late 1960s vintage Remington 760 carbine in .308. It was a very nice rifle except that the barrel heated quickly causing a wandering point of impact.

Nematocyst
October 18, 2005, 05:34 AM
Don't overlook the Remington 7615.
It's a pump carbine chambered in .223 that accepts all AR-15 magazines. B'Bear, I haven't looked at the .223 at all so far. What can you tell me about it relative to this thread that would persuade me to consider it further? I'm not at all opposed. It's just that I've been considering rifles in the .30 range (.357 carbine, .30-30, .35, .308, .30-06), so on first glance, a .223 seems a bit small, especially considering that I think (see below) I want to be able to drop whitetail, mule deer, antelope & maybe elk.

Having said that, though, I confess, I find myself asking, "why?"

Why would I want to kill that much meat at once, given that I'm mostly a loner, less likely to hang out in big camps where many pounds of meat would be welcome in a stew pot, and more likely to shoot varmits for meat, along with carrots, onions, potatoes & greens, not to mention that occassional human intruder intent on doing me bodily harm?

In a SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situation (which I reluctantly admit, i expect), I will have no freezer, and no way to preserve large quantities of meat.

Any thoughts welcome. Thanks.

Nem

PS: how interesting. This is my .357th post on THR. Hmm.

Nematocyst
October 18, 2005, 06:50 AM
Just spent an enjoyable evening reading about the .223.

Found a couple of articles on reloader sites; another one about hunting coyotes in Idaho; and at least one with a warning to beware shooting 5.56 in a .223 (pressures aren't commensurate; gun go boom).

Apparently the .223 is a varmit gun & military caliber, adopted after .30-cal-inspired 7.62 were deemed "overpowered".

Hmm. What was I saying about large game?

Flat trajectory, very fast, lower recoil than the .30's, eats less powder.

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56_x_45_mm_NATO) is an interesting overview.

OK, got my interest. I'm listening.
______

Added later after careful reading of the wikipedia article: "...at impact velocities above roughly 2,700 ft/s (820 m/s), it will yaw and then fragment at the cannelure. The fragments disperse through the flesh causing much more internal injury. The effectiveness of fragmentation seems to impart much greater damage to tissue than bullet dimensions and velocities would suggest. It should be noted that this fragmentation effect is highly dependent on velocity, and therefore barrel length: short-barreled rifles generate less muzzle velocity and therefore rounds lose effectiveness at much shorter ranges than longer-barreled rifles."

Hmm. That concerns me. The 7615 has a short barrel; only 16.5".

But then, this: "There has been much criticism of the poor performance of the round, especially the first-round kill rate when using firearms that don't achieve the velocity to cause fragmention. Typically, this only becomes an issue at longer ranges (over 100 meters) or as already stated wth shorter barreled weapons. The 14.5 inch barrel of the U.S. military's M4 carbine can be particularly prone to this problem. At short ranges, the round is extremely effective, and its tendency to fragment reduces the risk to bystanders when used inside a building or in an urban environment - the bullet fragments remaining in the target. By comparison larger pistol-caliber bullets pose a far greater threat of passing through the target and causing additional casualities."

So, the 7615 barrel is 2" longer than the problematic M4.

This is tough to sort out.

Interesting though.

Still got my interest.

Nem

Father Knows Best
October 18, 2005, 10:58 AM
....I want to be able to drop whitetail, mule deer, antelope & maybe elk....

If you want to hunt large game (deer and larger), don't get a .223. While the .223 is certainly capable of taking deer, it is illegal to hunt deer with a .223 in many states. The usual requirement is for a minimum of .23 or .24 caliber, so you can hunt deer with a .243 but not a .223. In addition, the .223 generally is designed to incapacitate by fragmentation, which will tend to ruin large quantities of meat.

The .223 is, however, an excellent varmint cartridge with the right bullet.

belton-deer-hunter
October 18, 2005, 12:06 PM
i think that the 30-30 has killed more deer than can be counted so i would go with the marlin as said above it is a side eject and i prefer it but i think what it all boils down to is the fact of who is shooting and how they cna handel their own gun if you are good with a 30-06 take it if you liek the .357 they go with it jsut get one gun and master it and you will be set

brickboy240
October 18, 2005, 12:44 PM
I hate to muddy the waters, but one rifle has been glaringly left out of the equasion - the Savage 99.

I own two Savage 99s, one is a mid 30s model in 300 Savage and the other is a mid 60s Featherweight model in 243.

The Savage 99 solves the problem of spitzer bullets in a lever action. It is a fast-action lever rifle that is a joy to carry, is extremely durable and can be had in some very deer-capable calibers like 300 Savage, 308 and 243. You can also safely low-mount a scope on these rifles and my 1964 Savage 99 in 243 gives me 100yd groups that look as good as any bolt action you could buy off the shelf.

My 1938 Savage 99 in 300 Savage has a set of nice, Marbles open sights and you can always go open sight (either v-notch or peep) on any Savage99.

Often, you see Savage 99s selling for good prices (around 300 bucks) at some pawn shops and gun shows, but they're becomeing collector items, because they're not made anymore.

If you like the idea of a fast action lever gun but also like the idea of a scope and a flatter-shooting round than the 30-30, the Savage 99 might be the rifle for you.

Again...I hate to muddy the waters, but you might be shorting yourself if you did not research the classic Savage 99 lever-action rifles.

- Brickboy240

Nematocyst
October 18, 2005, 05:57 PM
FKB, Belton & Brickboy, thanks for opinions. Good food for thought.

I'm still hoping also to hear more opinions about the .223. I'd enjoy hearing B'Bears thoughts about why he recommended I look at it.

Why, in light of several threads I read last night, and FKB's comment above about .243, I'm realizing I may as well consider the .24's and .270's as well. (I plead ignorance so far.) But, again, I want to make sure to get a caliber that is fairly widely available with the biggest range of cartridge options (in terms of mass, pressures, etc) that I can without going into reloading (yet).

As I've confessed above, this process is forcing me to really closely examine exactly what my goals are for a rifle, what I intend to try to shoot with it, etc. It's a great process for me; so glad to have some time to explore and listen to opinions before buying one.

Brickboy, thanks for the tip on the Savage 99. It's a busy day for me, but I'm going to read more about it later tonight or tomorrow.

Nem

BluesBear
October 18, 2005, 06:20 PM
Not counting on-line gaming forums, wikipedia is just about the last place I would go looking for firearms information.

I mentioned the .223/5.56 not realizing that you might want it for medium game hunting. You'll find that the vast majorities of .223 rifles will handle .5.56 just fine. (The Remington is actually chambered in 5.56)

I really only intended it to be another option to consider, not a recommendation per se.

One of the main advantages for .223 is the same as for 9mm. It is just about the least expensive ammunition out there. (AND in a SHTF scenario, ammo will be plentiful.)

Cheap available ammo, light recoil, detachable magazines, good accuracy, light weight.


Portability, light recoil and good accuracy are the primary ctiteria for a carbine. All of the aformentioned moels are sound advice.

I would suggest that you visit a large gun shop or gun show and handle several various models and then determine which is best for you.
In reality caliber is only a small part of the equation.

brickboy240
October 18, 2005, 06:36 PM
I'd stay away from the 223 for whitetails, unless they're really small deer and you're really close. I have a 22-250 bolt gun and you won't catch me plugging deer or pigs with it.

A Savage 99 Featherweight in 243 or 308 would fit the bill. Easy to carry, light, not a bad kicker, accurate, fast and a scope mounts nice and low. They also hold 6 rounds and are of all steel construction - built like they used to build them and extremely strong.

They also made the Savage 99 in 250 Savage caliber - another light kicking capable round, but they're harder to find and ammo might be harder to find as well. Some might say the 300 Savage is hard to find ammo for, but I bought a box of 300 Savage at two local Wal Marts and several sporting goods retailers around here carry it, so its obviously not THAT hard to come by. Remington still make new factory 300 Savage ammo.

Still, I'd trust my 99 Savage in 243 to the ends of the earth on whitetails and coyotes (its main use). I paid 350 dollars for this rifle and it was well worth it!

- Brickboy240

Nematocyst
October 18, 2005, 06:39 PM
In reality caliber is only a small part of the equation. BluesBear, thanks for that reminder, and your sage advice. Good points all. Much appreciated. :)

Brickboy, likewise.

I'll add more later...

rbernie
October 18, 2005, 09:08 PM
Again...I hate to muddy the waters, but you might be shorting yourself if you did not research the classic Savage 99 lever-action rifles.
I've got six of 'em, and can't say enough about 'em. It's a natural for southpaws, one of the few leverguns that's chambered for hi-pressure rounds, exceedingly fast to work on follow-up shots without losing cheeckweld, and darn accurate shooters. I prefer the F model (featherweights) in 308 as my out-n-about rifles; versatile, powerful, and totable.

JShirley
October 18, 2005, 11:45 PM
Probably because a shotgun is a better choice for home defense than any rifle.

With all due respect, some of the most respected firearms trainers in America disagree with you*. You can't just make such a statement; it has to be supported by facts. These are the facts:

a properly selected carbine or rifle will hold more rounds than a shotgun; will put more rounds on target in less time; each round fired will have more range and better penetration against armor than shot, but less penetration in tissue than slugs, and properly chosen rifle rounds will tend to penetrate less than pistol rounds through housing construction material.

A well-selected carbine and ammo combination is easily the best choice for home defense. I like shotguns quite a bit, but that doesn't mean they are the
best choice for the job.

The shotgun's raison d'etre is its versatility as a hunting arm. You can hunt anything from small birds up to large bears (at close range). If it's all you've got, it'll work for home defense, but just because it can be used for the role, does not automatically make it optimal, 'cuz it ain't.

John

*and incidentally, Louis Awerbuck, probably THE most respected authority today on tactical shotgun usage, says he only use slugs in his shotguns for social purposes now. I like slugs, but a quality carbine would be better for almost everyone.

mustanger98
October 19, 2005, 01:16 AM
You know, a shotgun may or may not be optimal ballistically speaking, but the sight of the front end of a 10guage double barrel sure has a way of persuading all manner of miscreants to take their business elsewhere. Or it did before all these message boards got going...

JShirley
October 19, 2005, 08:34 AM
I'm certain that's the case. Since I don't believe in intimidation factor, and don't plan on pointing a weapon at anyone I'm not in the process of shooting, it a moot point.

BluesBear
October 19, 2005, 10:29 PM
Intimidation factor is a mostly usless concept.

Any size bullet can kill you but no size works every time, all of the time.
Either a miscreant is worried about getting shot or they're not.


Ignoring the fact that there have been very few 10 gauge double barrel shotguns produced in the past 100 years does anyone really think a badguy who has invaded your domestic domain in the wee hours can really tell the difference between bore sizes? Hell's bells™ from 25' I can't even tell 10ga from 12 ga from 16ga.

If you ever confront a badguy who stands still long enough to assess your weapons capabilities then you probably have a much larger problem than simple Breaking & Entering.

Unless you live in the Clampett Mansion a simple load of #8 birdshot can be simply devastating at length of hallway distances. However at those ranges a shotgun requires just as much aiming as a carbine.

Your best home defense weapon is whatever you are familiar with and comfortable using. It must be accurate and reliable.

Nematocyst
October 26, 2005, 11:40 PM
Today was my 'day off'.

After a morning (a time of day i don't normally see because i work nights) meeting, i spent the next four hours in gun shops.

Well, the first one was the sporting good counter at a local BiMart. Looked at .22LR (Marlin, Ruger, Savage), then Ruger M77, Remington 700, Weatherby something.

Then I went to a real gun shop where I fondled Ruger GP100 & SW 686 & 686+. (It's going to be one of the later, but that's a different thread.)

Also handled the CZ 452 .22LR, which I like a lot. Probably going to buy that one. (But, also a different thread.)

But what really melted my butter was a Remington 700XCR (http://www.remington.com/firearms/centerfire/700xcr.htm) (Extreme Condition Rifle) in .30-06.

Now, I'm not entirely sure I'm going to invest in a .30. It may be that the 870P, a Kahr K9, & a .22LR is enough for what I need. (OK, OK, I'm likely to add the .357.)

But if I do buy a larger caliber rifle for those 'longer-than-slug' deer/elk kills, then I'm thinking it may just be a Rem 700XCR.

Wow. The moment I picked it up, it felt right. All that super stainless. That ergonomic synth stock. Smooth action. Safety right where it should be. Very interesting new cartridge system superceding the magazine. An R3 pad.

Price tag: $750. Immediate sticker shock. :what: :eek: Thought I'd have to sit down.

But, after repeatedly picking it up off the rack in the store (something ... kept...making me ... pick it up... again and again, racking the bolt...) and after some reflection, if I was forced - at gun point - to spend somewhere between $400 & $1000 tonight for a .30, that would be the gun.

As always, thoughts welcome.

Nem

sumpnz
October 27, 2005, 02:48 AM
Sounds to me like you've found your gun. When I found my Sig P245, it was the same thing. Picked it up and it was just perfect for my hands. Go buy that Remmy or you'll be Jonesing for it until you do. I nearly bought that Sig when I saw it at the gunshow. A week later the dealer still had it, so I snatched it up before someone else got it (or I went insane).

Remington's rifles and anything stainless/synthetic aren't my style, but that's why they call it "personal preference". Go for it. You won't regret doing so.

BluesBear
October 27, 2005, 03:14 AM
Now that you know what you want, go find the best price.
If you shop around a little while and bide your time, chances are you can save a bit of money.

Nematocyst
October 27, 2005, 04:08 AM
Go buy that Remmy or you'll be Jonesing for it until you do....Go for it. You won't regret doing so. I heard that.

Now that you know what you want, go find the best price.
If you shop around a little while and bide your time, chances are you can save a bit of money I heard that, too.

Sometimes, 'a bit' is a lot.

:cool:

Nematocyst
October 27, 2005, 04:43 AM
Attached is my current dream collection.
{Interesting that this is my 400th post to THR.}

Correctly name each of the five, win a Snickers bar worth $.75.
{Model numbers required, including all letters & numbers; no purchase necessary.}

Blue background indicates 'already owned'.
{Please remove ski mask before entering studio after hours.}

Others are tbp (to be purchased) asap,
with priority of purchase indicated by vertical position, top to bottom.

Did I mention the sheer exhileration experienced when handling that .30-06?

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=30418&stc=1&d=1130398614

BluesBear
October 27, 2005, 06:27 AM
You're a lucky man.

I have several times that many guns but I am still a long way off from having 20% of my dream collection.


But then, without dreams would life be worth living?

Nematocyst
March 12, 2008, 01:20 AM
Found this sleeper http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/smiley-sleep-blue.gif

while searching for data on
a comparison of .357 mag v .30-30 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4285026&postcount=70).

Seems like time for a bump.

Here's what I wound up with.

(Pic doesn't include the 39A (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=261635).
Eventually, I'll add a Stoeger Outback (http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/condor-outback.tpl).)

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=69216&d=1197845338

Seafarer12
March 12, 2008, 01:12 PM
Wow that is an old one, Personally I like the Win 92 action over the Marlin 94.

SwampWolf
March 12, 2008, 06:33 PM
Extra nice piece of wood on that bottom Marlin. You've got a good battery started Nemo! Be interested in seeing how your collection evolves (expands!) in the next ten years.

Nematocyst
March 12, 2008, 07:23 PM
Thanks, Wolf.

Yeah, I got lucky on that '94C stock. And it feels as good as it looks.

The 336A has nice wood, too, but the "nice" is much more subtle, hard to photo.

I've also added a 39A. I call them the Marlin Bros. :D

I'll post a pic another day. Gotta go back to work now.

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