Fighting with weapons found on the battlefield?


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Mark IV Series 80
March 29, 2003, 05:23 PM
I'm sure this has happened..... But I can't recall any examples.....

Can you think of an occasion where a soldier was able to continue to fight because he found an enemy weapon on the battlefield?

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Ian
March 29, 2003, 06:01 PM
The Warsaw Ghetto uprising relied very heavily on captured weapons, as have nearly all partisan organiztions I expect.

Hkmp5sd
March 29, 2003, 06:58 PM
Happened in Vietnam on occasion and there are several examples of it happening on both sides of the Eastern Front in WWII.

AK103K
March 29, 2003, 07:21 PM
pays to know as much as you can about as many as you can, eh?

Gordon
March 29, 2003, 07:28 PM
You have to be carefull about this though. In 1969 I dristributed many thousand Mekong Match rounds into discovered VC caches that were left undisturbed as there was no other valuable( or dangerous) items other than small arms ammo. A welded in bullet and a case full of C-4 will put you out of action !:D

jrhines
March 29, 2003, 07:34 PM
In another life and time I was a RSO for a group of folks that potentially would have to go in harms way in South America. All were trained with the BHP, the SW .380 and an 870 12 ga. I put through a special request for training on an assortment of toys that we might run into, 1911's, Uzi, MAC-10, MAC-9, you get the drift. Everyone was able to look and know if there was a mag in place, where any safety might be, how to clear, how to charge. We never had to use the skills when I was there, but if the VHTMM, we were ready!

VHTMM? Oh!, that's the Vigro Hits The Mixmaster

DMK
March 29, 2003, 07:55 PM
I just recently saw on the History channel where the 10th Mountain division used captured Nazi arms to take a hilltop. It apparently caused much confusion among the enemy because the Germans thought it was friendly fire and kept calling out for them to stop shooting at them.

I've seen more that a few pictures of individual U.S. special forces soldiers carring AKs in SEA. That may have been for similar reasons, maybe others.

Gary H
March 29, 2003, 08:00 PM
A Marine friend told me that they use to do this on Recon. in Vietnam.

D.W. Drang
March 30, 2003, 01:14 AM
BG SLA Marshall tells the story (Battle at Best"?) of how, early in the life of his historical research unit, they were grilling a bunch of guys who had been accused by their German PWs of looting the dead.
IIRC, they were getting chewed out by their Battalion Commander fo Conduct Unbecoming, etc., when one Platoon Sergeant had enough, and jumped up and raised the BS Flag on the BC. They were looting the dead, sorta kinda, for weapons and ammo, since "your S4 wasn't getting us any."
In the Seventh Infantry Division (Light) ("Fight Light/Freeze at Night", "Too Light to Fight/Too Heavy to Run") we all went through an Opfor range, where we ran through a few mags of Ak47 ammo, and got briefed on a variety of "Low Intensity Conflict" weapons, i.e., anything that was likely to go "bang" that you might run into in La Republica de las Bananas.

Blain
March 30, 2003, 01:35 AM
Heck, if I was a soldier on the field I would ditch my jam o matic for a AK the first chance I got!

D.W. Drang
March 30, 2003, 01:40 AM
if I was a soldier on the field I would ditch my jam o matic for a AK the first chance I got! But Blain, there weren't any AKs around when Uncle Sugar was issuing Chauchaut or Reising guns! :evil:

Thumper
March 30, 2003, 08:11 AM
Heck, if I was a soldier on the field I would ditch my jam o matic for a AK the first chance I got!
:rolleyes:
Don't believe everything you read...1969 was a long time ago.

Anyone that would trade an M16A2 or M4 for an AK these days is delusional.

Feanaro
March 30, 2003, 08:24 AM
Heck, if I was a soldier on the field I would ditch my jam o matic for a AK the first chance I got!

You would then become dead soldier. Why you ask? The AK has a distinctive sound and even if your friends know you have one in the middle of a chaotic fight it would likely attract some 5.56 rounds your way.

geekWithA.45
March 30, 2003, 01:21 PM
I saw breifly in the news crawler the other day that the Iraqi's had been rigging their AK's to explode when the action was cycled to do a chamber check.

firestar
March 30, 2003, 01:40 PM
Gordon

You have to be carefull about this though. In 1969 I dristributed many thousand Mekong Match rounds into discovered VC caches that were left undisturbed as there was no other valuable( or dangerous) items other than small arms ammo. A welded in bullet and a case full of C-4 will put you out of action !
____________________________________________________


:what: Yowzers! Good point. I was wondering if we are doing the same thing in Iraq. I did see a U.S. Marine on the news with a short bbl AK. I don't know if he was useing it in battle but it looked like he was carrying it for that purpose.:uhoh:

I have a AR-15 and a AK, my AR has never jammed but my AK has. Also, the AR is more accurate and MUCH easier to fire fast, it doesn't have the same recoil. I think there are a lot of rumors and old wives tales about these two guns, when I hear them, I often tune out the joker because they are talking about things they have only heard about and not from experience. A lot of people prefer the AK over the AR-15 because they just can't afford a AR-15.:neener:

answerguy
March 30, 2003, 01:49 PM
I just recently saw on the History channel where the 10th Mountain division used captured Nazi arms to take a hilltop. It apparently caused much confusion among the enemy because the Germans thought it was friendly fire and kept calling out for them to stop shooting at them.

My first thought was they must have had really good eyes to be able to tell that it was German ammo flying past their heads.:)
But on further reflection it was probably their ears they were relying on.:D

AK103K
March 30, 2003, 01:57 PM
I have a AR-15 and a AK, my AR has never jammed but my AK has. Also, the AR is more accurate and MUCH easier to fire fast, it doesn't have the same recoil. I think there are a lot of rumors and old wives tales about these two guns, when I hear them, I often tune out the joker because they are talking about things they have only heard about and not from experience. A lot of people prefer the AK over the AR-15 because they just can't afford a AR-15.
Your right about the wives tales, and they work both ways, depending who your talking to and whats their favorite flavor. I own more than a couple of each and have never really had any trouble from either other than crappy parts guns(AR's) and crappy US parts in an AK. Actually, I prefer the AK over the AR, and price isnt an issue. Not to turn this into the "standard" pissing contest about which is better, reguardless of what you have in your hand, thats not the weapon.

benewton
March 30, 2003, 04:55 PM
Trained on the M16A1, and am having no problems at all with the A2 upper on my OlyArms, built up lower. Feels good, of course, but then it would, since is sometimes get to fire the full A2 auto version...

For whatever reason, picked up MAK 90, then restocked it with AK wood, and added the muzzle brake a couple of years ago or so.

FWIW, I like the AK for general woods carry: it hangs better, and I like heavy rounds, and bigger holes, when I operate at short range, which arould here which is 100 yards max. But the safety, mag release and reload, not to mention the lack of a bolt holdback all suck. On the other hand, the stock fits me much better than the A2.

For the AR/M16, the ergonomics are much better, since the hands don't need to move from the firing position to go from safe to fire, and so forth.
But then, there's that tiny bullet...

In my decades old service, I grabbed the M16/203 combo whenever I thought that things could get serious. Outside of that, being a medic, I carried a 1911: Mk4 Series 70, personal type, since in a HHB in the FA, there are always too many officers for you to get yours. Besides, given I had my own .45, I get three weapons against the single issued to most!

Anyway, ramble over, the point is that I think both weapons are effective. I doubt that accuracy is all that different at normal combat ranges.
I've few doubts that the AK is more robust in terms of dirt. Both are a great deal of fun to play with, although I don't load for the 7.62x39 since I can buy it loaded cheaper than I can buy the bullet: a big rim fire.

I wouldn't consider utilizing any enemy weapon as my personal in any organized conflict, regardless of the weapons involved.

I agree that wrong sound on a dark perimeter invite LOTS of "friendly" rounds.

Mr. Purple
March 30, 2003, 05:12 PM
Firestar, you are right on the money. I had an AK it jammed once. I don't know why, and it never did it again. It was a great gun and I've always been sorry I sold it.

But you and I must be the only people that have ARs and have never had a jam. Mine has always worked great. Anyone that says they would dump theirs and take any other weapon on the battlefield has never had one or has had some home made piece of **** assembled by someone that didn't know how to work a torque wrench and didn't use a barrel with a chrome lined bore and chamber.

If your weapon is disabled in a firefight and you can't take one from your own dead, sure grab what ever you can till you can get another M16. But as others have said don't be surprised if you're killed by friendly fire. It takes very little time to distinguish between various weapons on the battlfield. Thats what survival is all about.

YankeeClipper
March 30, 2003, 07:01 PM
I hate to bring up the French but; Did any of you hear the story of the border dispute between Russia and France when the french built Mosin Nugent rifles of they could arm and supply from the field? I read the story years ago but nothing since.

280PLUS
March 30, 2003, 07:27 PM
one of the most basic tenets of guerilla warfare is to take what the enemy has and use it against him. one enemy soldier is worth his weapon, his ammo and whatever else he has in the way of gear.

yes, they were seeding ammo caches and grenades in VN with stuff designed to kill the user, something to keep in mind

they had grenades that looked like any other grenades but with no delay, as soon as you let go of the handle BOOM!!

at least one friendly officer thought he could unload one of these fast enough and ended up losing at least his arm. they asked him, "what part of 'non delay' didn't you understand?"

:what:

Turk
March 30, 2003, 11:11 PM
In my unit (1968) you were not allowed to carry any captured weapons period. It wasn't until years later I heard about the C-4 rounds and this may of one of the reasons besides resupply.

I talked with a Pete years ago and he stated the his team ran op's across the border and they carried AK's not that it was better but when in Rome do as the Romans. Point was if the NVA spotted them they may first think were with NVA and buy them a little time to bug out.

I'm another guy that never had his M-16 jam or know of any in the platoon that ever did. I would carry a AK if there wasn't anything else but I can think of a whole lot better weapons I would choose.

Concerning confusing the other side with the sound of their weapons firing. Let me say this I could and can tell the difference (sound) in a AK and M-16 firing. BUT in a in firefight the noise is deafing small arms, frags, RPG's etc and it really doesn't mater.

By the way I'm sure you've heard the HERD is back and it's in Iraq.

Have a good day. Please remember to pray for our troops fighting arournd the world.

Turk

El Rojo
March 30, 2003, 11:55 PM
I don't forsee US forces sabotaging Iraqi arm caches anytime soon. The differences between the SE Asian conflict 30-40 years ago and today's war is quite different at this time. Our politicians actually want to win this war and not just contain the enemy. Nothing like sabotaging ammo to lower enemy confidence and moral though!

foghornl
March 31, 2003, 11:20 AM
Disclaimer:
I don't know firsthand is this is true or not

Friend told me about ammo 'doctoring' during his Viet Nam tours...

If they found a cache of ammo, they would pull the bullets, dump powder, and recharge cases with a full load Hercules Unique or Bullseye (don't remember which). Made for [ahem] interesting things when the re-loaded ammo was fired.

DMK
March 31, 2003, 12:40 PM
I would tend to agree with those that say that the sound of AKs firing could draw friendly fire. I'd further bet that most of the pictures you see of U.S. troops carrying AKs are Special Forces/Recon who are doing it as a carefully planned tactic and everyone involved is aware of it.

On the other hand, I was reading in Popular Mechanics a while back about how the DOD was playing with a modified M-16 that would take AK mags to allow battlefield pickups of ammo(There was a thread on TFL about it). I'm not sure what the rational was for it unless it was also for Special Forces/Recon so they could travel ultra light and pick up ammo from defeated enemies as they went along.

I also wonder if it's the sound of the AK rifle or the 7.62x39 round? Does the AK sound like the SKS?

SDC
March 31, 2003, 12:47 PM
Rigging up goodies for the other side to use is an old game, and I don't doubt it's still going on; before South Africa went native, their Special Forces liked to booby-trap the SA-issue VX grenades (teeny offensive grenades the size of a golf-ball), and leave them in guerrilla caches; when the guerrilla went to throw them, the grenade would go off about 4 inches out of his hand. TA-DA! No more guerrilla.

Gewehr98
March 31, 2003, 01:15 PM
http://www.quarterbore.com/images/kac-sr47-01.jpg


Battlefield pick-up ammo, and AK magazines, without the logistics tail for 5.56mm ammo.

Here's one explanation of the concept:

http://www.quarterbore.com/kac/sr47.html

ball3006
March 31, 2003, 02:09 PM
into NVA ammo dumps. My boss and shooting buddy was in SOG back in '70 and has told us about some of the stuff he did....chris3

DMK
March 31, 2003, 02:58 PM
Yea Gewehr98, that's it. Thanks for the cool link on it. I guess I was right about it being a Special Forces toy.

"This particular 7.62 x 39mm is probably the most accurate 7.62 x 39mm in the world because it's got a really fine free-floated barrel," Lutz added.

"And, of course, it has the rail system so all of the other SOPMOD accessories off the M-4s are compatible. I want one! :cuss:

AK103K
March 31, 2003, 03:41 PM
You can dress them up, but it still aint an AK. ;)

vulcan
March 31, 2003, 04:26 PM
I attended a foriegn weapons familiarization course while serving with the 82nd abn. It covered quite a bit, From pistols on up to RPGs. The reason was, a airborne force could be cut off from supplies & may have to resort to using "pickups". Most of the weapons covered was Soviet, with some nato ones thrown in.

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