The Power of CCW... to Resolve a Potentially Bad Situation


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Werewolf
October 10, 2005, 10:42 AM
Yesterday, having recovered from my recent bout with gout - well - almost anyway, and as is my want I grabbed my camera, hopped on my motorcycle and headed out to the lake for a little walking and picture taking. I was carrying a 1911 along with two spare mags under the flannel shirt I was wearing.

I got to the lake and drove up one of the many dirt roads there looking for a place to take some shots of the lake and the flora/fauna before the dreary days of an Oklahoma Autumn set in. I found a good spot, dismounted and parked the bike. I stayed within 30 yards or so of the road as I walked occasionally stopping to take what I thought would make a good picture. During the time a number of pickups and cars passed without incident.

About 1/2 hour into the walk I heard another vehicle coming down the road, a van, loud music blaring, laughter and shouting coming from what was an obviously drunken bunch of teens (looked like college age to me). The sliding door was open and an attractive bikini clad young woman yelled out to me, "hey guy!", as the van approached. Two college age young men - obviously drunk hung on beside her and I noticed another young woman and young man in the driver's and passenger's seats.

After the young woman yelled one of the young men shouted out, "Quit jackin' off dude!", out the door of the van.

My first reaction was to respond. 10 years ago I'd have yelled some obscenties back at 'em and questioned both the sexuality and profession of the guy's mother and ended with a comment on the legitimacy of his birth.

To be honest the words were already formed up in my brain and my mouth was opened when it occured to me that an appropriate (or inappropriate as the case may be) response was probably not in order since I was carrying.

There were three drunken young men in that van. If they stopped and wanted to make an issue of it there was no way I could take on 3 college age guys 30 years younger than me and come out of it healthy. In addition I still had twinges of the gout in my right foot and ankle and there was no way I could run. Actually, even without the gout running on the wet spongey ground I was on at the time would have been iffy at best anyway.

Which meant if I escalated the situation and they stopped I'd either have to shoot the punks or get the crap beat out of me. That thought process took no more than 1/2 a second (training, habit, THR discussions on the same subject).

So I gagged on my pride, choked off the words and just waved at the passing van as it drove by.

To be honest if I hadn't had that 1911 with me I'd probably have had to take a beating because it is in my nature to respond to offensive comments in kind.

Now I just have to figure out how to do the same when not carrying.

Anyone else with tales that reinforce the message?

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middy
October 10, 2005, 10:47 AM
Two words: "Pepper spray" :D

NoahFN
October 10, 2005, 10:50 AM
I'd have yelled some obscenties back at 'em and questioned both the sexuality and profession of the guy's mother and ended with a comment on the legitimacy of his birth.

I couldn't help but laugh after reading that. Good call on not responding though.

Double Maduro
October 10, 2005, 10:53 AM
Now I just have to figure out how to do the same when not carrying.

No, you don't, all you have to do is always carry.

Good story that illustrates the change in mind set once we start CCW.

DM

Spot77
October 10, 2005, 10:57 AM
"An armed society is a polite society"



Good call on your part.

El Tejon
October 10, 2005, 11:02 AM
Those that enter into combat have already lost.

When you fight, you will be in jail or the hospital. I'd much rather be on my motorcycle doing what I wish to do, rather than what the corrections officer tells me to do. ;)

Mongo the Mutterer
October 10, 2005, 11:08 AM
Good Call Werewolf.

Let'em go on with their useless lives. Time wounds all heels.

EddieCoyle
October 10, 2005, 11:17 AM
Good story that illustrates the change in mind set once we start CCW.

+1


Kinda makes you grow up, doesn't it? I've been in similar situations several times and reacted the same way. Now if open carry were allowed...

Mulliga
October 10, 2005, 11:30 AM
I just ignore people like that.

Being a college student myself, I see that behavior a lot. Most young people do not carry, so I think to myself, "I'm carrying a gun - they're not. They're helpless, I'm not." There's a certain pride (or at least self-assurance) in being willing to defend yourself, and you can see these kinds of people for what they are - immature and vulnerable.

Oldtimer
October 10, 2005, 11:51 AM
By opening your mouth and playing to "their" game of idiocy, you might have escalated the situation.
By remaining silent, you may have become somewhat of an "enigma" to them.....the strong/silent type.

The "motor-mouths" are usually only talk, and without substance. The quiet ones are best to steer clear of!

Several years ago, while target shooting in a remote desert spot by myself, a group of punks on dirt bikes came riding up. "This is private property, and you have to leave", the spokesman punk yelled to me. I knew that it wasn't private property, so I yelled back, "I'm not finished shooting, and you happen to be in the way of the targets I'm shooting at". The punk spokesman responded with, "You had better be gone when we come back!". I responded to that with, "I'll leave when I'm finished".

The punks rode off, but DID return a couple of hours later.....and I could see that they were ARMED! "You're still here?", the idiot of a spokesman asked. I blandly replied, "And you're AGAIN in front of the targets that I'm shooting at!"

What it boiled down to was the fact that I hadn't allowed them to intimidate me, and hadn't lowered myself to their level, by using foul language or "tough guy" words. The TRUTH, however, was that I had taken some time to run through some tactics AND to load up all of the firearms that I had with me, between their first and second visits.

When the punks revved their bike engines, just before leaving the second time, the spokesman yelled out, "Man, you MUST be crazy!". I didn't respond to that until they angrily drove away.
I sat down and popped open a cold beer, then muttered to myself, "Maybe I am crazy!"

That incident took place back in the late 1970's, after having been a police officer for about 8 years AND having been in REAL combat, back in 1967-1968. I grew up FAST when I was in the military, and my combat experience paid off nicely when I decided to get into law enforcement. I had never been in the Boy Scouts, but their motto of "Be Prepared" certainly stuck in my mind. I also learned a life-time lesson from one of my "old- timer" training officers when I was a rookie....
"Be professional all the time. If someone calls you an A-hole, call them SIR! It will piss them off, but it will WORK in your favor!" He also taught me that it is best to keep the words short, but effectively spoken. I adhered to his words of advice through my 31 years in law enforcement, and they're still worthy to those who think that "fight fires with fire" might be the thing to do. Call me an A-hole? I'll just remain silent, or call you "sir", while realizing what an IDIOT you are! Just keep steady watch on their hands and eyes.

one-shot-one
October 10, 2005, 12:32 PM
that i'm not the only one who struggles with the need to disipline those whose parents appearently didn't. congrats on your restraint.

hartzpad
October 10, 2005, 12:40 PM
did you at least snap any shots of the bikini clad young ladies to post here in revenge?

Darth Ruger
October 10, 2005, 01:16 PM
Interesting story. First time I ever heard of a situation where the concealed gun changed the attitude of the carrier rather than the troublemakers. Good call on that, Werewolf, for two reasons:

1. You never know, those punks in the van might have had guns, too. Then you would have been in real trouble, being outnumbered.

2. You acted like a responsible CCW holder should and let it go. It reminds me of a quote from one of my daughter's favorite movies (Spiderman): "With great power comes great responsibility."

I recall on another forum, this guy posted a story about how someone in another car cut him off, yelled something out the window at him, and proceeded to drive off. He wouldn't let the guy get away with that, so he sped up, yelled an obscenity back, and drove off. The other guy followed him. When he got where he was going, the other guy pulled up, got out of his car, and started toward him with a pissed off look on his face. Our hero pull his jacket back, put his hand on the grip of his carry gun and started walking back, telling the guy "I don't want to talk to you, leave me alone" or something like that. After saying this a few times, the guy kept coming, so he pulled his gun and held it at low-ready. That changed the guy's mind, so he got in his car and left.

He thought when he posted his story everyone would congratulate him for deftly using his carry gun to diffuse what could have been a violent attack. Instead, the forum members lambasted him for escalating the situation. In my opinion, he deserved it. When the guy cut him off and yelled something at him and started to drive off, he could have simply let it go and nothing would have happened. Instead, he let his temper get the best of him and it could have ended in a shooting. Who knows, the other guy might have had a gun too, and if it ended with shots fired, an innocent bystander could have been shot because of a situation that didn't have to happen.

In my opinion, if you're going to carry, it's your duty to avoid escalating a situation, even if it means swallowing your pride and not responding to an insult. And anyone that simply can't resist replying to an insult shouldn't carry a gun, because that kind of person will unnecessarily escalate a situation every time. A concealed gun and a bad temper is a recipe for disaster.

HankB
October 10, 2005, 01:27 PM
Only an IDIOT tries to pick a fight with a total stranger for no reason - that stranger may well be armed.

The guys in the van were IDIOTS.

Do you REALLY care what proven IDIOTS say to or about you?

I'm habitually armed unless it's illegal at that time & place (secure area of airport, polling place on election day, etc.) and I WILL NOT escalate verbal abuse or reply in kind to road rage. If escalation occurs to the point where I have to employ deadly force for the safety of myself and my companions, I'm going to do all I can to be sure ALL the escalation takes place on the part of the other guy, for both legal and moral reasons. If that means he goes off thinking he "out-toughed" me, fine. He's an idiot - I don't care what he thinks.

By not responding in kind to the drunks in the van, you did good - here's a big "ATTABOY" for you.

Ala Dan
October 10, 2005, 02:00 PM
Good call there Werewolf; you took "The High Road"~! :D

Werewolf
October 10, 2005, 02:13 PM
did you at least snap any shots of the bikini clad young ladies to post here in revenge LOL! Where was your wisdom WHEN I really needed it? :evil:

thorn726
October 10, 2005, 02:26 PM
if we had to get riled up everytime some idiot yelled out a passing car here, it would be a non stop battle.

how can what an IDIOT thinks or says ever matter?

+1 to El Tejon

ignoring idiots is always the best method

MikeIsaj
October 10, 2005, 02:36 PM
Good call Werewolf. I have had my "type A" personality tempered by CCW. You realy do think before you get into a pi#$ing contest.

torpid
October 10, 2005, 03:45 PM
So did you quit after the guy in the van shouted out?

:D

(Hoping you're carrying as you read this...)

Tokugawa
October 10, 2005, 06:55 PM
You thought and acted well. We are held to a higher standard when bearing arms. Like as not the kids were drunk and goofing around, unfortunately for them they never got the education or parenting to teach them better. No sense in confrontation, they couldn't back down because of male pride- the only social interaction that makes sense with this sort of thing is to ignore them, or if that is not possible, humour them.

Standing Wolf
October 10, 2005, 08:11 PM
Anyone else with tales that reinforce the message?

I've noticed I speed a lot less since I started carrying. Easier to avoid problems than solve them.

Majic
October 10, 2005, 09:32 PM
So are you saying that without a firearm you still are just as big of an idiot as the drunks were? Still got a ways to grow up I guess, but at least you are getting there.

bogie
October 10, 2005, 09:40 PM
911

"Hello - I just witnessed a van full of people who appeared to be very intoxicated. It's going toward Oak Hills, and I'm afraid they could hurt themselves or someone else."

Keep an eye on police auctions.

Flyboy
October 10, 2005, 11:12 PM
Gun zen.

I've noticed that I, too, have become a lot more serene since I've started keeping a 1911 on my hip. I've had any number of cases like Darth Ruger describes: cut off in traffic by some jerk with more horsepower than IQ points (often as not, on a small motorcycle :neener: ), and I've found myself laughing, rather than punching the gas to show him who's who. I've come to realize that it just isn't worth it.

Even if he was the one to initiate the situation, even if he came at with me with a knife for passing him, I'd have missed an opportunity to de-escalate the situation by not ignoring him. While I might legally be in the clear, I'd still bear some moral culpability for his death if he forced me to defend myself after I'd missed an opportunity to let him go.

Slugs like that just aren't worth it. Karma has a funny way of evening up the scores; I don't need to help out.

fedlaw
October 10, 2005, 11:45 PM
I've noticed I speed a lot less since I started carrying.

Amen!

Rob1035
October 11, 2005, 12:07 AM
good job werewolf, although I probably would have called in their plates once they'd moved on. No sense letting a couple of drunks hurt someone vehicularly...

Byron Quick
October 11, 2005, 12:13 AM
I've noticed I speed a lot less since I started carrying.

*sigh* I haven't noticed a difference in my speeding habit.


I've always enjoyed responding with a goofy grin and a frantic wave.

If they're on foot, approaching with,"Do you know that Jesus loves you, brother?" works well.

Responding with dopey cheerfulness to this type of behavior throws such people off their stride. It takes thought to respond to novel situations and they are not in any condition to think.

ExtremeDooty
October 11, 2005, 12:20 AM
"An armed society is a polite society"

I misunderstood this quote for years. I always thought it meant that the unarmed people would be more polite once they realized that other people were armed.

After carrying for awhile, I realized I had this quote backwards. As this thread shows, it's the armed people that are more polite.

Byron Quick
October 11, 2005, 03:49 AM
There's another element to the saying also. Even if you're an armed punk...knowledge that the other man is armed has a tendency to put limits on your behavior.

NoahFN
October 11, 2005, 07:38 AM
I've always enjoyed responding with a goofy grin and a frantic wave

There's nothing worse than giving someone the finger, with them responding by smiling and waving at you. A garbage truck almost hit me once and I flipped him the bird, he smiled at me and waved. I was pissed off for a whole week I think. :)

one-shot-one
October 11, 2005, 08:35 AM
a pretty blonde in a sports car do a left turn in front of me thur an intersection when i had a green lite, i had to slam on the brakes to keep from hitting her. she shook her fist and was appearently questing my parentage when i smiled :) and blew her a kiss. she burned off a couple of months of tread from her tires.

armoredman
October 11, 2005, 10:22 AM
I'd much rather be on my motorcycle doing what I wish to do, rather than what the corrections officer tells me to do.
What'choo tryin' to say, El Tejon???? :D
I have passed up opportunities to respond with juvinile insults and fingers for years, as I started carrying a firearm at 16. I never saw the point of entering into a P-ing contest with anyone, that would result in a fight, bloodshed, or worse. Now that I have spent several years working inside prison walls, I have even LESS desire to engage in such kiddie kontests - I work in prison, and have NO desire to live there.
Machismo is just another word for idiot who wants to get his heinie kicked hard.

Too Many Choices!?
October 11, 2005, 11:47 AM
I would have shot the punk, and then road off on my hog with his bikini-clad hottie :D j/k(Yeah, I know this is serious but since you did what's right, I can have fun right :o )

The Real Hawkeye
October 11, 2005, 12:10 PM
This is very true. When you are carrying, you let a lot of stuff slide that you wouldn't otherwise. Firstly because you are not really in a position to be involved in a confrontation short of a life or death kind of response. You cannot allow yourself to fall into a situation where you might be rolling around in a fight, because the gun might find its way into your opponent's hands. You have no choice but to use the gun in one way or another to prevent a situation from getting that far. So you just let everything slide except for actual unprovoked attacks on your actual person, letting insults go by the wayside. A CCW is a peace maker in more ways than one, and, yes, an armed society is a polite society.

NineseveN
October 11, 2005, 01:46 PM
No, you don't, all you have to do is always carry.

+1



Aside from that, remember, that even the best of us can slip up a little. I normally do not respond to anythng like that when carrying, but since I always carry, even one mistake could be trouble. For example:

A couple of months back, the misses and I had a nasty fight. We don't normally fight, so that and the fact that she has a knack for getting under my skin when she wants had me wound up pretty tight. I decided to take a drive to cool off.

Well, about 10 minutes into the drive I cam upon a "T" intersection, where I was going right. The light was red but the road was empty, so I stopped and the proceeded with my turn. All of the sudden a green Mustang came flying through the intersection with the headlights off. As they blew their horn and went into the oncoming lane, one of the goofballs stuck is head out thw window and muttered some obsceneity.

I was a little off at the time, and without thinking, I yelled "F_ _ _ you!" outthe window. I immediately realized what I had done and decided I'd best avoid those guys...so I took the next right-hand turn that I could.

I got hungry and went to a Sheetz for a sandwich. Just after I got out of my car, the same green Mustang pulled in and blocked my car in from the rear of the parking spot. As one of them got out he said something like "You got a problem Motherf_ _ _er?"

My hand was already inside my shirt and my CCW was partially drawn out of the holster. I kept my strong side away from the thugs so that they could not see my actions. As I was about to say that I did not have a problem, the driver told the other guy to get in the car, that it wasn't worth it...they took off.

Now, it all worked out nice, BUT:

I will not take repsonsibility for someone's death or injury should they decide to escalate a situation with physical violence or the threat of it. If you MF me, and I MF you, when you decide to take it to that next level, that's on you.

We should,a t all times, try and refrain form engaging in verbal acts of stupidity because they may lead to physical, but at the same time, let's not get too carried away with it to where we think that if any CCW'er ever opens his or her mouth to someone else in a moment of humanity that they are responsible for the resulting actions. It does us more harm than good to believe so.

Werewolf, good job! My CCW has made me a "pacifism first" tye of person, and because of it, I avoid confrontations daily.

The Real Hawkeye
October 11, 2005, 01:56 PM
We should,a t all times, try and refrain form engaging in verbal acts of stupidity because they may lead to physical, but at the same time, let's not get too carried away with it to where we think that if any CCW'er ever opens his or her mouth to someone else in a moment of humanity that they are responsible for the resulting actions. It does us more harm than good to believe so.Agreed. You are not responsible if the one you shot both 1) started the confrontation on level one, and 2) escalates the confrontation to level two. So long as you are never the one who escalates it, you are not responsible, but if you can swallow your pride and not respond to level one, you will avoid a whole lot of trouble for yourself still the same.Werewolf, good job! My CCW has made me a "pacifism first" tye of person, and because of it, I avoid confrontations daily.That's all I'm saying.

NineseveN
October 11, 2005, 02:19 PM
Well we agree then. :D

FireBreather01
October 11, 2005, 02:42 PM
This is the type of thread that the anti's should read - all of the dire warnings and hand-wringing about CCW and blood flowing in the streets is just so much hyperbole. Those that decide to go armed and go through the training and assume that responsibility are a much more reasoned lot than the average citizen, IMO. When I started carrying I noticed that my road rage tendencies and frustrations actually went way down - it's just not worth getting into a situation that requires an armed response.

I don't carry to get into gun fights, I carry to avoid them. And maybe one day I will be required to use my gun to save my life, a family member's, or another innocent citizen's, but it will be an absolute last resort.

Byron Quick
October 11, 2005, 05:10 PM
This is the type of thread that the anti's should read - all of the dire warnings and hand-wringing about CCW and blood flowing in the streets is just so much hyperbole.

I don't believe that is the antis' problem with CCW. Rather, the antis know, in their heart of hearts, that they could not be trusted to carry a gun responsibly. Then it becomes a matter of pride. They refuse to admit the possibility that you can carry a gun responsibly. They refuse to admit how small a human being they are in reality. This false pride makes them believe that you are just as small. It's a face saving mechanism.

Mongo the Mutterer
October 11, 2005, 07:23 PM
Byron:Rather, the antis know, in their heart of hearts, that they could not be trusted to carry a gun responsibly. Agreed. But they also need to realize that those of us who can be trusted act to protect them, as well as ourselves.

Mannlicher
October 11, 2005, 08:17 PM
Through the years, I have done both. Gotten into scuffles, and avoided them. I think as I grew older, the desire to mix it up gave way to a more mature desire to NOT mix it up.
I think it was more fun when I was young :)

bobhaverford
October 11, 2005, 09:56 PM
I will not take repsonsibility for someone's death or injury should they decide to escalate a situation with physical violence or the threat of it. If you MF me, and I MF you, when you decide to take it to that next level, that's on you.

I agree and I disagree. And, more importantly, I think a jury might disagree too.

The laws vary from state to state exactly what your responsibilities are insofar as de-escalating a situation. By MFing him you created enough ambiguity in the situation that you MIGHT be held at least partially responsible for the escalation of hostilities.

His MFing you does not give you a carte blache to MF him in return ESPECIALLY if you are carrying. The repercussions of contributing at all to any confrontation that ends in the use of a CW in today's milquetoast lovey dovey kumbya world are a horrible thing to behold. Its just not worth it.

And that's the point several posters have made. There's absolutely NO point in contributing in ANY way to the escalation of hostilities.

Just because your opponent raises the ante to the next level does not grant you impunity, at least insofar as I understand the laws of the state of Missouri

Andrew Rothman
October 11, 2005, 10:25 PM
In general (and it does vary greatly from state to state), lawful self-defense requires that you be a "reluctant participant" in an altercation.

MachIVshooter
October 11, 2005, 10:27 PM
I've noticed I speed a lot less since I started carrying. Easier to avoid problems than solve them.

That didn't work for me. I still do 15-25 over the posted limit most everywhere. The way I see it, the limit was set out here with big pickups hauling 4 horse trailers being driven by (no offense intended) older folks in mind. I am 23 and drive a 1999 Intrepid that I can gaurantee at any time has no problems (I bring it in the shop when we're slow to check it over, so it is seldom more than 1000 miles between check-ups). My camber is set .2 degrees negative and tires are H-rated and a little wide to limit sidewall flex and "roll". So with my youthful reaction time and a sound, agile car it takes me less time to stop or steer at 80 than for the aforementioned from 50. Not a good excuse in court, I know. But I can justify my speeds from an responsibility standpoint.

Now, as to letting the stupid things that stupid people say go since I started packing; much easier. I have become much better at avoiding confrontations by knowing that even if the gun never comes out during the fight, I'll still be in a heap of trouble and could lose my right to own firearms as the result of an assault charge. In today's society, there is no real winner in a fight.

Byron Quick
October 12, 2005, 09:03 AM
Agreed. But they also need to realize that those of us who can be trusted act to protect them, as well as ourselves.

Mongo,

I don't think you are quite grasping the psychological dynamic with the antis.

If they realized that there are people who can be trusted with with weapons while they know that they cannot be trusted with weapons; then they would have to admit that they are not the top notch, super evolved, and super civilized people that they think they are. There own self image will not allow them to admit that you are trustworthy with weapons when they know they could not be trusted.

They think that anything they cannot be trusted with, can be entrusted to no human being for they are the best human beings. It's elitism, pure and simple.

It's why they're so hard to reach with facts and logic. Recognizing facts and logical argument would force them to change their worldview from one with them at the top of the pyramid of civilization to a worldview where their true place is not so exalted.

It's really a pathetic position they've placed themselves in.

beaucoup ammo
October 12, 2005, 09:13 AM
I've found having a CHL makes a world of difference in how I perceive the actions around me..specificly the motor mutants one encounters on the road.

Try and jack me at the ATM? I don't know.

Take Care

Biker
October 12, 2005, 09:27 AM
As the years go by, El Tejon's words concerning freedom and motorcycles make more and more sense. I've been on my Harley and I've been in jail. I prefer my Harley.
Biker

38SnubFan
October 13, 2005, 01:00 AM
I think the statement that best sums it up is this:

"Discretion is the better part of valor."

I know carrying has calmed my temper down A LOT. Like the original poster, there are times I'd definitely challenge punks like that. Now, I realize the childishness about getting into a P-ing Match with those kind of people.

I don't need to fight to maintain my pride. I maintain my pride by knowing I only need to fight when my life/health is endangered.

-38SnubFan

Nematocyst
October 13, 2005, 02:24 AM
First, +1 to Werewolf for this thread.

Second, there is wisdom lurking amidst words here that's i've felt intuitively.

Example: "It's the armed people that are more polite."

Among many 'facts' of physics & ballistics about 12 ga, 9mm, .357 & 30-06 that I've learned on THR, here is the most important (speaking only for myself): the presence of tools that can propel high velocity 100-220 gr. specks of metal at velocities ranging from 1K to 3K/sec, with heads that peel back upon entering biological tissues (epidermal, collagenous, muscle, bone...), that alone modifies interaction.

This forum is unquestionably the most respectable set of interactions I've ever partipated in, where "set" includes town hall meetings, bar room discussions, university seminars (including both graduate and faculty), dark street encounters....

Why?

Hypothesis: we all carry.

Some of us carry more and bigger than others, but that's not nearly as important as the fact that ... we carry.

Something about those high velocity specks of metal that just makes one settle down, take a deep breath, put the anger of the last t years into perspective, and say, "Hmm. Maybe a fight is not the most intelligent choice here. If I'm attacked, I can potentially continue living with the aid of this (22, 30, 308, 32, 35, 38, 9, 357, 40, 44, 45, 50...). But otherwise, the argument doesn't matter that much. Right now, life is better than fighting. Just walk away and enjoy the air & the view."

Just one opinion.

;)

Nem

odysseus
October 13, 2005, 03:10 AM
So I gagged on my pride, choked off the words and just waved at the passing van as it drove by.

Best thing, especially for a bunch of teenagers.

I like to say: I don't suffer fools easily, but I don't easily suffer foolishness.

I know that feeling you indicate about really wanting to tell them off and show them the errors of their ways. 90% of altercations I got into when I was an angry youth was because of escalating the situation through untempered words from my mouth. I also saw this in others. Saying nothing often saves a lot of hassles, and like another said, you can go on your day doing what YOU want to do.

I believe fully that you get what's coming to you. It's a matter of fact to me, you eventually in ways you never thought reap what you sow. For good or bad. So those youths will learn their lessons; didn't have to be on your time.

owsi26
October 13, 2005, 10:52 AM
EDDIECOYLE

You said if only open carry was allowed. Open carry is allowed in Mass. according to gunlaws.com. You need a permit but it is legal according to that site. Let me know if it is wrong.

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