International perspective on the .45ACP round?


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PaladinX13
October 10, 2005, 02:08 PM
How do private gun owners in other nations, foreign governments, and international gun manufacturers view the .45ACP round?

Not a question of validity or errancy to the views, but of what the views are. To the latter, clearly America is a big enough market to get the foreign manufacturers to make .45 caliber arms for our consumption. But elsewhere, how is the round seen, how available is it, and is there any debate between calibers or has the 9mm won intellectually, if not by necessity (that is, no choice thus no point to a debate)? Is there a stigma or stereotype (or desirability) similar to that of "Big American Cars"? Is it even relevant or seen only as an American oddity?

Insight into their views from non-American THRers especially appreciated.

Again this is purely academic. Foreign views aren't going to make me enjoy my 1911 any more or less, but sometimes it's good to remember that American's aren't the sole proprietors of gun culture, and to appreciate (at the very least know) the differences in culture.

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sumpnz
October 10, 2005, 02:18 PM
Spence: What sort of weapons you use?

Sam: Hmm?

Spence: Weapons ... I'm a weapons man. So what's your favorite?

Sam: It's a tool. Doesn't matter. Put the tools in the box to do the job.

Spence: Yeah but what's your favorite?

Sam: Well, I'm partial to the 1911.

Spence: .45 ... Old gun.

Sam: Served my country well.

Spence: Not done to well though, your country, last couple of wars, eh.

Sam: Perhaps, but at least we don't go around whining about it.






From "Ronin" - Sam was played by Robert DiNero, Spence by Sean Bean.

No_Brakes23
October 10, 2005, 04:55 PM
Love that movie, sumpnz, first DVD I ever bought.

As to the .45, I once read an article written by a European, (I think) about the "Uniquely American" .45ACP.

MICHAEL T
October 10, 2005, 05:02 PM
Americans are a super race and it takes a 40+ cal. to stop us. Thats why we win Wars.
But you say. Other calibers have killed Americans. Well they weren't True red blooded Americans.They must have had some French or other Euro mix in them and a little 9mm or smaller will stop them. But if your a real American you best carry a 44 or 45 just in case you tangle with another real American. :D

Moonclip
October 10, 2005, 05:07 PM
They seem to think it is overrated and prefer the 9x19 I've noticed if they are allowed to own a gun in the first place and in a military caliber. Hirtenberger did make a 45 round though that was identical in function to a 45acp but a little different dimentionally for those in countries that wanted 45acp performance but were not allowed to own guns in military chamberings. Kind of like why I think 9x21 was developed.

Mulliga
October 10, 2005, 06:26 PM
A guy from Brazil whom I met recently said that handgun calibers were strictly regulated. IIRC I think the most powerful thing they were allowed to have was .38 special or something like that. Handgun ownership in many areas is severely restricted compared to the U.S. Given that fact, I think many gunowners outside the U.S. would love to shoot service pistol rounds, the .45 included.

adobewalls
October 10, 2005, 07:10 PM
Many countries ban the possession of guns chambered for military rounds, like the .45. That's why the 38 Super was so popular in Mexico. I lived for a while in Venezuela, and the 9mm and 45 were not kosher for civilians - so most people I knew who had guns, had .38's and .380's.

Dr.Rob
October 10, 2005, 07:44 PM
Until the late 70's European guns in .45 were rare... think maybe HK was the only mfg of .45 cal pistols at the time.

Other than Norway's .45 in WW2... the .45 was rare in Europe unless it was in the hands of a yank (ww1, ww2) or a specialty (ww2) Brit (lend lease RAF pistol, commando etc)

Even though Colt had a "London Address" (Pall Mall) big bore Colts weren't as popular as the Webly across the pond. London Colts were used a LOT less often than their American counterparts.

The 45 ACP was a proprietary cartridge outside the US (it stands for Automatic Colt Pistol) ... you'd have to pay royalties to mfg it? (Other than the SW 1917 revolver) Now that the 1911 patent is in 'public domain' is one of the reasons its copied so much now, in 1927 "Systema Colts" were built on Colt made machines... it's likely this is no small part of the issue.

Travis McGee
October 10, 2005, 11:36 PM
Most countries have very restrictive laws regarding guns generally, so they are happy to take any caliber they are allowed! The free American caliber smorgasboard simply does not exist.

Add to that, many countries ban "military calibers" for civilians, so they are stuck with 38 super, etc, as has been mentioned above.

junyo
October 11, 2005, 12:10 AM
Americans are a super race and it takes a 40+ cal. to stop us. Thats why we win Wars. I once read something quoting an Englishman that said that Europeans were polite enough that once a hole was in them they'd concede that the fight was over. Americans, on the other hand required that "bloody big holes" be blown in them before that stopped. So Americans needed a larger standard round.

And Ronin is the coolest movie ever.

Kurush
October 11, 2005, 03:21 AM
I think part of it is metric snobbishness, they don't want anything that's in American units. If someone started making 11.43mm PAM* I bet they'd be lining up :p

*Pistolet Automatique de MAS, naturellement.

Medusa
October 11, 2005, 04:33 AM
Well, the law doesn't ban it but the ammo is not as common as the 9x19, .38, .32 and such and it's at least twice the cost of 9x19. Besides the sight of .45 cal pistol at gunshop here is the sight I've yet to see.

Shear_stress
October 11, 2005, 09:29 AM
What about Espana? Llama and Star turned out quite a few .45 pistols. Hard to believe those were all for export.

Edited to add: why stop at .45ACP? Wasn't the 44 Magnum issued to some special French police units?

Sam
October 11, 2005, 02:08 PM
I spent the mid 80's in Europe and had quite a bit of interaction with shooters there.
I know the Italians were caliber restricted so I won't count their holdings.
Most UK residents were plenty happy with the 9mm or a 38, a couple used 1911's but were considered weirdos and the lone 455 user was elderly and ribbed for it although he shot it well.
Among the continentals, 9x19 was the rule, with the exception of a couple real serious IPSC shooters who wanted to make major, they used 45's.
Couple of the French cops had .357's but no 45's in evidence anywhere.

The only place overseas that I am aware of that really likes and uses the .45 is the Phillipines. They love the things, maybe more than Americans.

Sam

horge
October 14, 2005, 05:26 AM
The only place overseas that I am aware of that really likes and uses the .45 is the Philippines. They love the things, maybe more than Americans.


Well, history does seem to intertwine us a wee bit;
you Americans, ...we Filipinos, ...and the 45 ACP.

Mabuhay.

J.M.N.
October 14, 2005, 06:04 AM
In my country the .45 is fading away a bit. It used to be a popular cartridge for IPSC but the .40 has somewhat replaced it. The .45 does enjoy some cult following here too as we also have our own 1911 crowd. The popularity of the 9mm is mainly due to the price of ammo. 9mm is used by NATO, police and army so it's kind of the logical choice unless you want to shoot major.

In general European gun laws are not as restrictive as Americans think. And your laws seem to get worse every yer. That is great concern of mine as restrictions and stupid laws tend to spread all over the world in time. Once something is outlawed or restricted in a "big country" politiacians tend to want follow suit in smaller countries eventhough no problems exist.

Some countries have their quirks, but in many countires gun laws are more allowing than in Kali for example. The UK is the big exeption but they have lost their grip on things a long time ago in my opinion.

As for my country every gun has to be registered and needs a license, but here are no caliber restrictions for example. Carry and full auto are a no no, as are "pocket guns" (everything smaller than a Glock 19). All of the above can be had with paperwork and good qrounds though (collector or professional use)

You cannot buy a gun for self defense in here. Only acceptable reasons are sport shooting or hunting. Personally I have an AR, AK,1911s, Glock and some others so I'm happy with things so far.

gvass
October 14, 2005, 06:50 AM
There is no military or LE service what officially use .45 ACP caliber guns this time in Europe.

The 9 mm Luger is far the most widespread, and if you count on former east bloc countries, the 9x18 Makarov is still strong.

As for civilian shooters, the 9 mm Luger is the most popular, followed by the .38/.357 (for the bullseye target revolvers), I suppose this two represents at least 70-80% of euro civilian centerfire handguns.

But for example in Germany there are clubs and matches for .44 Magnums and up (.454 Casulls etc.).

.45 ACP is used only by some target shooters in high-end and very expensive guns.

The ammo cost is a very great concern against the .45 ACP here.

Joejojoba111
October 14, 2005, 07:29 AM
The big difference used to be the mindset on pistol useage. Now, it doesn't matter because they are mostly disarmed peoples, but when they were free they had a distinct outlook.

The European vision of a pistol was slightly related to dueling. They preferred to shoot at longer distances, so their theoretical gunfight would be at a minimum of a dozen yards, and perhaps would be long enough to require reloads.

The American view was that fights take place at 'conversational distances' and this is why a larger heavier caliber is used, becase more immediate results are required.

In each situation the tool sounds right for the job, though 10mm sounds like a great compromise.


And it's really really heartbreaking to read a Sherlock Holmes mystery, and a description of how Watson slips a revolver into his pocket before going out, as a proper gentleman did then. Incredible.

Sleeping Dog
October 14, 2005, 07:37 AM
If someone started making 11.43mm PAM* I bet they'd be lining up
That metric measurement is what's stamped on the slide of my Argentine Sistema (1911 clone). .45ACP fits it just fine.

Regards.

blume357@bellsouth.net
October 14, 2005, 07:49 AM
On the Sherlock Holmes PBS Mystery series there were numerous episodes where Holmes told Watson the bring his pistol. Even one I think where they both carried. Holmes was an expert at Judo and the Sword, so he had an advantage over Watson with his bad leg. Jeremy Bret had to be the best Holmes there ever was... As for concealed carry, it seems it was accepted during that time in England.

As for a more recent PBS Mystery, Foyles War.. which is a great show.. they had an episode where a drunk British Solder is waving a German Luger around that a friend had given him for luck. Later he says he didn't know it was loaded.. also the female lead of the show actually pulls the trigger to show it's not loaded..BAM! NO ONE CHECKED first? I think the writers have to be totally ignorant of what a real soldier would have done when he first aquires a gun.

What was the Caliber of the break open Revolver Watson Carried? More to the real subject of this post.

MachIVshooter
October 14, 2005, 10:49 PM
Hirtenberger did make a 45 round though that was identical in function to a 45acp but a little different dimentionally for those in countries that wanted 45acp performance but were not allowed to own guns in military chamberings. Kind of like why I think 9x21 was developed.

The .45 round you refer to is the .45 Automatic short, which is nothing more than a .45 ACP with the case shortened one millimeter so that standard .45 ACP could not be chambered in civilian guns. The .45 Auto short (or .45 HP) does, however, have the same loaded OAL as standard .45 ACP and ballistic performance is identicle. Not sure if Hitenburger actually developed the round, but they were (are) the only company that ever loaded it.

Also, while the 9x21 was developed for the same reason, it's popularity is due in no small part to the fact that it can make major without grossly overloading (as is required for the 9x19 to make major). It is even sometimes referred to as the 9x21 IPSC.

Creeping Incrementalism
October 14, 2005, 11:22 PM
As for a more recent PBS Mystery, Foyles War.. which is a great show.. they had an episode where a drunk British Solder is waving a German Luger around that a friend had given him for luck. Later he says he didn't know it was loaded.. also the female lead of the show actually pulls the trigger to show it's not loaded..BAM! NO ONE CHECKED first? I think the writers have to be totally ignorant of what a real soldier would have done when he first aquires a gun.


In Band of Brothers, the book and the mini-series, one GI gets a hold of a Luger and accidentally shoots himself while showing it off.

You cannot buy a gun for self defense in here. Only acceptable reasons are sport shooting or hunting. Personally I have an AR, AK,1911s, Glock and some others so I'm happy with things so far.

JMN, where are you from, and how is it that you aren't able to buy guns for self defense but can buy AR's or AK's, while I live in California and am allowed to buy guns for self defense and can't buy them??? :banghead: ... whenever I hear someone say "who uses 'assault weapons' for hunting", I want to show them this picture in Speer's #13 reloading manual of a guy with a Tommy Gun holding up a dead rabbit.

helpless
March 30, 2007, 07:42 AM
MICHAEL T says:

Americans are a super race and it takes a 40+ cal. to stop us. Thats why we win Wars.
But you say. Other calibers have killed Americans. Well they weren't True red blooded Americans.They must have had some French or other Euro mix in them and a little 9mm or smaller will stop them. But if your a real American you best carry a 44 or 45 just in case you tangle with another real American.

Winner. ;)

CZ.22
March 30, 2007, 08:17 AM
Holmes and Watson's revolvers were probably .442 or .455 Webleys. Also remember that Watson had served in Afghanistan and probably had an adantage in firearms handling.

Baba Louie
March 30, 2007, 10:02 AM
In Band of Brothers, the book and the mini-series, one GI gets a hold of a Luger and accidentally shoots himself while showing it off.Hoobler was carrying a loaded Luger in his pants pocket when it went off, opening the femoral artery. I didn't think he was showing off, but someone please correct me if I err.

AndyC
March 30, 2007, 11:29 AM
In South Africa, the majority of handgun calibers are 9mmP and .38Sp. It's mostly the keen shooters who sport .45ACP - it's not very common to see a .45 in the hands of someone who doesn't go to the range regularly.

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