Just bought a Sub-2000!


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Bobarino
March 29, 2003, 06:49 PM
stopped by a local gun shop to see if they had one and fondle it. i couldn't resisit. i took it home with me. 9mm, glock mags. (now i just have to find those 32 rnd pre-bans!) paid $289+tax. looks like it will be fun. will let ya'll know tomarrow after a range session.

Bobby

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Schuey2002
March 29, 2003, 07:08 PM
Those 32 round Glock mags can be found on various gun boards such as www.glocktalk.com , but they fetch over $100.00 per mag..

OBTW, congrats on your new purchase, Bobby.

cool45auto
March 29, 2003, 07:12 PM
Ooh! Ooh! I want one!

Definitely tell us how it does.

DMK
March 29, 2003, 07:50 PM
9mm carbines are awesome. I absolutely love my Marlin Camp 9, just wish I had a S&W 5906 to share it's mags with.

Let us know how it shoots! ;)

Bonker
March 29, 2003, 08:00 PM
Wait until next year and see if the 10rd ban sunsets. Then buy the 33 rd mags.

Bobarino
March 29, 2003, 09:47 PM
well, i couldn't wait. i went to the range on the way home. this thing is a hoot! only fired 100 rounds. no malfuctions of any kind. and it shoots 1.5 groups at 40 feet. thats all the distance the local range has. it probably shoots better in the hands of a better rifleman. but it is FUN! after goofing around with the fully adjustable front sight for a while to get it to hit POA, i let 'er rip. recoil is minimal and the longer barrel quiets it down a tiny bit from a 9mm handgun. the ONLY bad thing is there is no bolt hold open after the last round is fired so if you're not counting the only way to tell you ran empty is the "click". the bolt handle can be drawn back and locked into place similar to the MP5, but at the rear of the gun under the minimalistic stock. so you can insert a mag and give a slap and it slams the first round home and you're ready to go. of course, the folding feature makes it very handy too. it looks like it will make a dandy home defense carbine also, so i bought some "personal defense" ammo for it too. that job will probably remain in the hands of the HK 40C though, but hey you never know.

if you're looking for something unique to add to the collection and don't want to break the bank, check these out! very high fun factor for minimal dollars spent. cheap ammo too. effective range is 100 yards, so says the factory. they even include a ballistics chart for the 9mm round at various ranges and compare it to other pistol calibers. with 115 grain +P, you can get 1520 FPS! not bad. Kel-Tec sights them in at 100 yards, but i changed it to about 15 yards.

you can lock it in the folded position with a key that is provided to keep it safe from curious little critters that might inhabit your house.

lemme know if anyone has any specific questions, i'll do my best to answer them...

Bobby

Logistar
March 29, 2003, 11:37 PM
Glad to hear you are enjoying the SUB-2000 Bobarino!

I am still thinking about one myself. ANY additional comments you have about the Sub-2000 would be appreciated. I was thinking about using one as a defensive weapon. It would be EASY to transport. I plan on buying a more expensive rifle for defensive work but if the Kel-Tec will do for now... (or maybe later too!)...

Logistar

Bobarino
March 30, 2003, 01:24 PM
i think the Sub 2000 would make a great defensive rifle for the home or back country or whatever. even standard velocity 9mm JHP's get up to 1300-1400 fps. the recoil is a little stiffer than the AR-15's with pistol caliber conversions, the the bolt spring is heavier than i thought it would be so it soaks up a good bit of it.
the sights would not be good for low light situations. in a dim room you can barely see the front sight. the sights are also about 2 inches above the boreline so your shots will stray vertically a little bit at varying ranges. its very well blalnced. you can balance the gun upside down on one finger at the ejection port. it has a shroud around the ejection port so left handers don't get smacked with hot brass in the eye. the magazine release is the only thing that keeps it from being fully ambidextrous. its nice and short and would make a good house clearing weapon, if i were trained in such matters. you just can't go too wrong for $289. if you don't like it, you can always sell it for $250 or so and recover most of your money. the guy i bought mine from had just put it out on the shelf earlier that day and had 10 or so people look at it already. they had another one but it took Smith and Wesson mags. i wanted the Glock mags for availability. its a pretty ingenious little thing and well worth the money in my opinion. and like i said before, its just plain FUN!

Bobby

Logistar
March 30, 2003, 11:32 PM
Thanks for the info, Bobarino. I am going to look at one this week. (I need one with Beretta mags though.)

Logistar

Onslaught
March 31, 2003, 09:24 AM
Check www.cdnninvestments.com and www.cheaperthandirt.com for 32 round mags under $100 (usually $89 each).

I was really close to buying one, but over on www.ktog.org, I read that some left handed folks (like me) weren't comfortable with the amount of gas that blew back into their face....

I'm waiting for the CX4 so I can have a true left-handed sub-rifle... of course, at more than TWICE the price! Ooh, and I need Beretta mags too!

Enjoy!

LeadPumper
March 31, 2003, 12:49 PM
I bought an early production model the begining of last year and have put plenty of rounds down range since then.

They are nice, light, fairly accurate carbines with minimal recoil.

One word of caution, do not use aluminium cased ammunition in the Sub. I repeat *DO NOT USE ALUMINIUM*

I had been using CCI/Blazer (cheap around here) for several months with no problem. One range trip however, I got an out of battery discharge, blowing out the mag and sending a fireball out the ejection port.

Full story here:http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=118347

Kel-Tec's awsome customer service repaired the rifle at no charge. CCI's tech guys examined the remains of the 9mm round and claimed it was not faulty, but that it was unsupported during firing.

Have had the rifle back in service for six months or so with no glitches, hick-ups, or problems since. So be warned.

Otherwise have fun, it's a great little rifle from a great little company.

-LeadPumper

Bobarino
March 31, 2003, 01:30 PM
i don't know about the early guns, but mine came with a big orange tag in the box that says "DO NOT USE ALUMINUM CASED AMMUNTION!" saying that it could cause a mafunction. i wonder if your expereince was the reason for that. thats ok with me though, 9mm is cheap anyway, even in brass cases. i was considering trying some Wolf ammo, but i really don't want to have to clean laquer out of the chamber.....

Bobby

USGuns
March 31, 2003, 04:54 PM
I've had mine for sometime (serial # < 1000) and it's a hoot. If yours didn't come with the little metal ejection port clip, be sure you email KelTec and get one (free). It will reduce wear on the port and the chance of FTE's.
Have fun!

rock jock
March 31, 2003, 05:10 PM
Had one for a day and sold it. Felt cheap and flimsy. Plus, totally unusable for a lefty. Sold it the same day. It is pretty much the same quality as all of Kel-Tec's offerings. If you like those, you'll probably like the Sub 200.

Marcus
March 31, 2003, 09:15 PM
A friend just bought one and I think it`s pretty cool. I`ll have to get one eventually. There were two downers though,the trigger is quite heavy on his,probably around 10lbs. I know they`re supposed to be more like 6.5lbs. a trip to Fla. may be in order for that. The other is that the Scherer 33rd. mags fit very sloppy and although the latch holds them in if you shake the gun a little they fall out. Factory Glock mags seem to work fine. Now he`s looking for 17rd. mags and +2 bases at a reasonable price. Marcus

USGuns
April 1, 2003, 08:16 PM
Hmm, I don't think I've heard anyone call the Sub2000 "flimsy" before... Mine's very solid. It's the poor-man's MP5! ;)

Kel-Tec will soon have a short under-fore-grip picatinny rail available for it for mounting flashlights, lasers, etc.
http://www.kel-tec.com/news.htm

Once you break it in, it's really a great home-defense rifle. It's short for close-quarters. It shoots 9mm to lessen over-penetration. When you're stressed, some folks may find a rifle easier to shoot more accurately than a handgun.
IMHO.

Onslaught
April 2, 2003, 09:43 AM
I suppose "flimsy" is in the eye of the "sub-holder"...

I've fondled a few Sub2K's, and they feel like a very well made Star Wars toy. It certainly doesn't feel solid enough for me to think "100% reliable Self Defense". I get the same feeling about their pistols as well. BUT again, that's just my opinion (as well as RJ's).

I too am a leftie, so the Sub2K is a no-go anyway.

It shoots 9mm to lessen over-penetration.
:confused: Overpenetration of the shoot-ee, or of multiple walls when you miss? OP of a BG is an extremely exaggerated non-issue, and the fact that 9mm will penetrate through multiple sheets of wallboard has been proven many times in both formal and informal testing.

If you have one and like it, excellent. Believe it or not, I'm not dogging it, I'm just putting a little objective perspective on things.

Bobarino
April 2, 2003, 01:16 PM
actually i agree with with both sides to some extent. it feels pretty solid to me, but it is indeed plasticy. and i didn't but it with home defense in mind, thats what i have the H&K for. it does give me another option though, just in case. i bought it for a fun plinking gun. and the reason it feels a little cheap is because it is! its only $289, what do you expect? if you take it for what it is, a resonably priced fun gun with a bit of novelty to it, that can double as a defense weapon in a pinch then its a great value. i didn't expect match rifle accuracy or 100% reliability, because its a $289 gun. i'll have to fire it a whole lot more with good results before i put any faith in it. but for now it sure is fun to shoot...

Bobby

Onslaught
April 2, 2003, 01:42 PM
Bobarino...

You and I have pretty much the same view... it's just that you've expressed your opinion in a much more positive way :D

If I wasn't left handed, I'd probably own one, for all the same reasons I have a Ruger 10/22, or have always wanted a Henry AR7... What better "camp carbine" than one that folds up and goes under your seat.

But I sure as heck wouldn't take one (or even 10) over an MP5 ;)

Hutch
April 2, 2003, 04:52 PM
So, what exactly is the problem for lefties, exactly? It's not a bullpup, IIRC. Does it fling brass in your face?

Onslaught
April 2, 2003, 05:48 PM
So, what exactly is the problem for lefties, exactly?

Since it's a straight blowback weapon, instead of delayed blowback, locking lug, or some other method of delaying the opening of the breech prior to the pressures lowering, you can get a face full of "blowback"... if you use plain ole' target ammo, you come away with a black face at the end of the day. It is also quite possible to get brass in the face, as with any other semi-auto... the closer to your face the breech opening is (i.e. short short carbine) the more likely that you will encounter one or both problems.

It doesn't bother everyone, but it does annoy some.

There have also been issues with lefties hitting the mag release accidentally, and dropping their $90 Scherer 33 round mags to the ground while mostly full, and of course, they split.

But like I said... it doesn't effect everyone.

USGuns
April 2, 2003, 06:46 PM
It's definitely composed of a lot of polymer, but only in the right places (except the trigger, I hate non-metal triggers). This keeps the weight AND price down. I think the original Sub9, which was mostly machined metal, was around $700? I got my Sub2000 for $290. I've read the polymer that Kel-Tec uses is the same that Ruger uses for their P95/97 pistols - Dow Isoplast - very tough stuff. All this makes it durable, lightweight and affordable. It absolutely will not compete with an HK, as they're at slightly different price points! :what:
What does an MP5 cost???

bastiat
April 3, 2003, 01:05 AM
I was thinking of a sub2k for awhile, then I saw the beretta CX4 storm. 9mm carbine that also uses beretta 92 mags, much better looking, plus it has the ability to eject on the right or the left depending on how you set it up. After seeing it I decided that being able to fold a 9mm carbine wasn't all that important.

Warner
April 3, 2003, 10:39 AM
I have a different take on the folding aspect.

If this weapon proves itself somewhat, the fact that it could be transported in a way that doesn't shout "GUN" to everyone is one of it's most desirable features. I know that many places I travel have more stringent laws concerning handguns, where rifles fall farther under their radar screen.

I never had any reason to consider a pistol caliber carbine before, but maybe this one fills this niche.

Onslaught
April 3, 2003, 11:21 AM
If this weapon proves itself somewhat, the fact that it could be transported in a way that doesn't shout "GUN" to everyone is one of it's most desirable features.
Sheeple be darned... I've got $250 set aside already, and 2 more months to go... I can't WAIT! :D

http://www.berettaweb.com/Beretta%20CX4_Storm/CX4_10.gif

USGuns
April 3, 2003, 02:33 PM
Holy smokes Onslaught, I think that gun out-uglies the Sub2000! Man, that thing is gaudy! Is that the new Beretta CX4? I hope it shoots well 'cause looks alone aren't going to take it very far! :barf: Tacky.

Onslaught
April 3, 2003, 02:45 PM
:D

It does take a little getting used to. It was designed by "internationally renowned Giugiaro Design to study the ergonomics and style the firearm." so form follows function. Besides... can your Sub2K do this?

Rounded forms are snag-free, modern and innovative. Rubber stock comb provides a comfortable rest for the cheek. Length of pull can be lengthened in .6" increments, from 13ΒΌ" to 15" by adding one to three stock spacers (one provided). Multiple sling attachment points allow a multitude of carry options. Retractable forward accessory rail extends out from the fore-end, allowing quick mounting of tactical light or laser unit. Hard mounting points allow the addition of various accessories, including side, top and bottom "Picatinny" rails. These will accept optics, tactical lights. lasers and vertical grips. One side rail included. Front post sight is adjustable for windage and elevation, while the rear ghost ring sight has long and short-range apertures. Both sights are protected by rugged "ears" and may be folded down when optics are used.

And it comes in BLUE too :p

But still...

Comparing this:

http://www.berettausa.com/product/spotlight/images/spotlight_cx4storm.jpg

to this:

http://www.kel-tec.com/sub_203.jpg

There's no doubt in my mind that the ergonomically correct space-gun beats the 2x4 with AR style handguards any day ;)


BTW, I'm not REALLY playing 'my gun is better than your gun'... I'm just funnin ya! ;)

USGuns
April 3, 2003, 06:23 PM
Oh yeah, my comments were all in fun. Most folks don't care how it looks but more how it feels and shoots. Both guns have their strong points.

BTW, the Kel-Tec will roughly do SOME of that, though not with as much panache' as the Beretta. :cool: Plus, the Sub will fold in half for easy transportability and weighs 1.75lbs (15%) less.

- You can buy a stock extension to lengthen the reach by 1".
- A new under-fore-grip picatinny rail for lights, lasers, etc:
http://www.kel-tec.com/news.htm
- Quite a few other handy accessories:
http://www.kel-tec.com/new_page_5.htm

For < $300, you can't beat the Sub2000 as a fun gun! :D

Take care,
USGuns

Onslaught
April 4, 2003, 03:15 PM
Hmmm... Being left handed, maybe I could just learn to shoot the Sub2K upside down?

:D

Bobarino
April 4, 2003, 07:33 PM
well i found something bad about the Sub SK. it won't feed Federal's 135 grain 9mm "Personal Defense" Hydra-Shoks. it crushes the nose of the bullet into an elipse and shoves the bullet into the case about 1/8th of an inch. i'll try some other JHP's to see what feeds correctly. maybe some Gold Dots are in order....

Bobby

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