Rules for Littoral Conflict with Hostile Exchange of Ordnance


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280PLUS
October 10, 2005, 09:38 PM
OR...

(US Navy Rules for a Gun Fight)
1. Bring a Battleship.
2. Bring another Battleship.
3. Bring a carrier, but don't let it get in the way.
4. Bring a submarine.
5. Dominate the sea.
6. Dominate the air.
7. Dominate the hostile shore.
8. Do not hit mines.
9. Avoid shore/air/sea launched missiles.
10. Do not run aground. Do NOT run aground.
11. When the Marines call for support, ignore Rules 1-10
and provide as much support, as closely as possible, with
all forces at hand. Ships are cheap; Marines are not.
12. If you lose, the Marines will remember forever that
you were not there. If you win, the Marines will say the Navy was not needed.
13. Drink coffee.

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enfield
October 10, 2005, 10:34 PM
Good!

It's Ordnance -- not Ordinance. ;)

280PLUS
October 11, 2005, 07:25 AM
oops, I just copied it through and missed that one. :o

juggler
October 11, 2005, 07:41 AM
I resemble that inference

That's something to show the squid if/when we shoot this weekend….though the weather doesn't look to improve until next week.

I will pass along the Marine rules of engagement soon.

rms/pa
October 11, 2005, 08:55 AM
a bit more elaborate than mine
NAVY RULES FOR A GUNFIGHT
1. send marines

2. stay 3 miles offshore and provide gunfire support

3. drink coffee in air conditioned gun mount

rms/pa

280PLUS
October 11, 2005, 09:43 AM
I'm told that was written by a Marine but I can't be sure... :p

armoredman
October 11, 2005, 11:13 AM
Ya, know, I slept in a 3"50 cal gun mount in Condition 3 cruising in the Gulf, and I don't remember any air conditioning....just trying to curl up around a steel seat, as we couldn't leave the mount, but had a 10 minute readiness window.
On the other hand, it WAS really rough on the ship when we ran out of ice cream....
A former Marine on my staff was talking about making it back to the chow hall for grub, when I laughed, and he looked startled. I said "Now you know why I joined the Navy - we took the chow hall into combat with us!"

rms/pa
October 11, 2005, 12:43 PM
armoredman, dats the problem with those old obsolete open mounts. no AC.

even the 76mm on the perry class frigates has AC.

rms/pa

No_Brakes23
October 11, 2005, 05:22 PM
My
Ass
Rides
In
Navy
Equipment


I haven't been on a boat, (Pardon me squids, I mean ship) that didn't have that penned on a the bulkhead somewhere. :)

Old NFO
October 11, 2005, 08:01 PM
2. stay 3 miles offshore and provide gunfire support
RMS/PA the other option is to get as close as possible... During D-Day the Emmons and the Doyle came within 800 YARDS or less of Omaha beach- They were basically firing point blank at the Germans, and were getting peppered by rifle fire at the same time.

I "know" at least one large ship with 9 BIG guns on it was within less that 3 miles of Nam supporting a Marine Company 23+ miles inland at danger close ranges 30+ years ago :D

I also saw a Gunnery shoot in WESTPAC two years ago where the first 5"/54 round took the banner off the Lear Jet's tow cable and the second round clipped what was later determined to be 10 additional feet of cable before the Lear hauled butt for home :rolleyes:

280PLUS
October 11, 2005, 08:22 PM
Ya gotta have big brass ones to be flying the jet,,, :eek:

:p

rms/pa
October 11, 2005, 08:25 PM
thanks old nfo,

my gun mount the 5'54 mk 45 had no direct fire control when first deployed
so 3 miles gave us a small "over the hill" ability. later a syncro with binocs was added to the signal bridge that the mount could be used in direct fire mode..

literaly walking rounds on to the target like a machine gun ... weird as heck with a 5'.

rms/pa

Souris
October 12, 2005, 12:04 AM
even the 76mm on the perry class frigates has AC

The 76MM may have AC but the .50 cal mounts were out in the open with only life lines and a splinter shield around them. The 25mm wasn't any better.
Sonar Control was nice though.

Old NFO
October 12, 2005, 09:32 AM
Not really 280 Plus, we just use the big sky, little airplane, smaller bullet theory :D

RMS/PA, you guys always amazed me with your accuracy- I "know" how hard it is to hit anything from an airplane, which is a relatively stable platform, but to do that from a ship rolling and pitching just blew my mind. :what:

280PLUS
October 12, 2005, 12:10 PM
Not really 280 Plus, we just use the big sky, little airplane, smaller bullet theory LOL... that's good until one of those microprocessors in there somewhere farts and decides little plane is a big target :eek:

:p

rms/pa
October 12, 2005, 12:51 PM
old nfo,

thanks for the kind words, keep in mind our standard of fire control is to hit a 500 mph air target coming at us while we are at 20-30 kts bouncing and rolling.

land targets are much easier...

rms/pa

280PLUS
October 12, 2005, 01:00 PM
my gun mount the 5'54 mk 45 had no direct fire control when first deployed
so 3 miles gave us a small "over the hill" ability. later a syncro with binocs was added to the signal bridge that the mount could be used in direct fire mode.. Am I to believe you guys were doing this kind of shooting with no Radar? What year(s) are we talking about here?

Bart Noir
October 12, 2005, 03:52 PM
Navy (Enlisted) Rules to Gunfighting

1. Go to Sea

2. Send the Marines

3. Drink Coffee

4. Sit on a ship 600 miles away and launch officers in aircraft at the enemy.


Bart Noir
Who didn't / doesn't do any of the above ('cept the coffe)

Leatherneck
October 12, 2005, 04:31 PM
I'm told that was written by a Marine but I can't be sure... Nah. No chance. We love our little brothers. :neener:

TC

oneshooter
October 12, 2005, 07:04 PM
Old NFO
I believe that the USS Texas (BB35) was as close as 3000yds from Point Du Hoc, supplying "direct fire support" to the Rangers with her 14"main batterys. This was INSIDE the destroyer line!!!

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=29876&stc=1

Old NFO
October 12, 2005, 08:52 PM
LOL... that's good until one of those microprocessors in there somewhere farts and decides little plane is a big target

That, 280 Plus, is what we call the golden BB- At that point you terminate your contract with the government and that airplane, and put your faith in Mr. Switlick and your personal weapons :eek:

RMS/PA- Understood, but you guys were STILL good!!!!!!

Oneshooter, you're right, also the Harding (DD-625), Satterlee (DD-626), and McCook (DD-496) were there, and the McCook supposedly went into the surf line to take the point under "direct fire" knocking a German gun off the cliff (I guess the Skipper wasn't going to be ooutdone by the BB :D ). Also, many of the DD CO's disobeyed orders and closed the beach to pick up survivors and give medical aid, often coming under direct rifle and machine gun fire from the Germans. Without their actions, many more would have been lost on all beaches.

oneshooter
October 12, 2005, 09:33 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=29888&stc=1 Nothing like a 14" pointed at you from spitting distance, more like 10 of them!! Two weeks after D-Day the Texas (BB35 10x 14") and the Arkansas (BB33 12x 12") took on 4 German Batteries off of Cherborg. In a 3 1/2 hour running gunfight they silenced 3 of the batteries. :D


Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

rms/pa
October 13, 2005, 12:51 AM
280 plus,

RADAR.... we don need no stinkin RADAR ;)

nah we used radar directed fireing at all times.... then some silly pointed out that radar breaks.... and we had no way to point the mount without it.

quick fix was the syncro with binocs on the signal bridge
later fix was a camera in line with the RADAR emmiter.

that way we could point the RADAR without emmiting(emitting fire control RADAR is the same as shooting in some folks opinion) but have the mount in local and the RADAR on standby. can we say .9 seconds from fireing?

rms/pa

jrfoxx
October 13, 2005, 01:14 AM
GO NAVY! And God bless the Jarheads!

280PLUS
October 13, 2005, 07:57 AM
AHHH, I see. was thinking, "Cutting the cable in flight in manual mode? Now THAT'S shooting!" :D

In my day we had a GM sitting in a bubble on top of the mount with sights and a honest to God trigger. Occasionally during practice they would let him shoot manually. I have no idea what the results were. I don't know if he had A/C either. I would hope so because it probably would get very toasty in the bubble sitting in the equatorial sun for a while. Maybe that's why our Gunners were so skinny? They were melting away in there!:eek:

:p

rms/pa
October 13, 2005, 08:34 AM
280 plus,

thanks again for the kind words, the mount you describe would have been the
mk 42 ,cubicle weather shield, one or two frog eye bubbles. twice the ROF of the mk 45 and 3 times the weight. the mk 45's defining characteristic is weight saving. they asked the designers to lighten the mk 42. so the took away half the loading system along with other mods..... then they offered them a $1000 dollar a lb. bonus each per pound they could take off further. shrinking the weathershield to form fit the mount and removing all personell from the above deck mount saved 700 lbs.

the mk 42 was ac. but gunnies get skinny from ammo off and on load.
600/900 projectiles at 70 lbs each up/down 3 or 4 decks hand to hand does that.
the 42 lb powder cases seem like a dream afer that.

rms/pa

280PLUS
October 13, 2005, 08:47 AM
Oh, I humped a few rounds and cases. And you are right on about their weights. :D

My claim to fame is that for some reason I was always assigned to carry the starshells from onload all the way down to the magazines. They were not passed hand to hand to minimize the chance of dropping them. They really could go off, I guess. If we dropped one we were supposed to pick it up and put it in the nearest of the drums of water set up along the way just for that purpose. :eek:

I never really found out if it was because they trusted me so much or they didn't like me. (Actually, a lot of guys were terrified of the things.)
:evil:

rms/pa
October 13, 2005, 10:25 AM
my personel main fear was WP rounds all it needs is a leak...poisonous smoke and self ignition in oxygen atmosphere in a magazine filled with low and high explosive.
goodie goodie gosh.
it did not keep me from napping in the magazine when i was feeling non social. :evil:

rms/pa

280PLUS
October 13, 2005, 11:02 AM
YEA!! YEA !! Willy Peter! Those were "Starshells". Looks like they were even more dangerous than I ever knew!

And I was supposed to PICK IT UP and dump it in a barrel of water. :eek:

I had a secret void to hide in that was passed down from oldest to oldest as we left. We called it "The Stateroom".:p

:D

rms/pa
October 14, 2005, 08:14 AM
280 plus,

WP is mostly in smoke rounds.... the star shells had magnisium and other metals that burn. you can get an interesting steam explosion dropping enough burning magnesium into a barrel of water. then closing the hatch on a small watertight compartment.

all my hideout spaces had lights and seats as i liked to read. i stayed out of the voids, gotta build your rack out space then. the SKs had the best rackout space on my last ship. at that time the spruance class destroyers had "unassigned" spaces that were used by the SKs for stores...... and beds and couches and magazine racks and coffee pots..... darn gotta be an SK in my next life.

rms/pa

MarkDido
October 14, 2005, 09:40 AM
That, 280 Plus, is what we call the golden BB- At that point you terminate your contract with the government and that airplane, and put your faith in Mr. Switlick and your personal weapons :eek:

OldNFO....

What type aircraft(s)?

Intimately familiar with Switlick. Did 22 years as a PR and believe it or not, during WWII my mother had one of those "Rosie the Riveter" jobs sewing parachute containers for Switlick in Newark NJ

Must be hereditary! :D

Old NFO
October 14, 2005, 09:59 AM
I started in H-34's, went to H-2B's (3 emer landings in three weeks), EC-121, S-2F, P-2V7 (JMSDF) TA-4's, had time in F-4's, a couple of rides in A-6's (now THAT is an e-ticket ride form Whidbey to Fallon THROUGH the Cascades), Went back for flight training as an NFO, flew in T-2 and over 7500 hours in P-3's.

280PLUS
October 14, 2005, 10:10 AM
WP is mostly in smoke rounds.... the star shells had magnisium and other metals that burn. you can get an interesting steam explosion dropping enough burning magnesium into a barrel of water. then closing the hatch on a small watertight compartment.
Hmmm, all I remember is "Willy Peter". I was always under the impression they were illumination rounds. Described as having glass tubes that were filled with WP and dropping them was not "a good thing". Supposedly the concussion of firing them broke the tubes and set the WP off. I was an MM so I'm going mostly by hearsay. As far as the "Stateroom", it was well outfitted and totally off the RADAR.:evil: (unfortunately it now lies somewhere near Hawaii at ~ 1600 Fathoms (give or take)IIRC

Uh ohhh, I see the flyboys are at it...:what:

:D

PS: Switlick = Parachute? That one got right by me.

What's the "Golden BB"?

Old NFO
October 14, 2005, 11:18 AM
Hey now 280 :-)

Switlick made and still makes parachutes for the government. They also give out a golden caterpiller lapel pin to anyone who successfully uses their product!

The term Golden BB, as far as I know, started in WWII, it is the allusion to a point and pray shot from a single round of any caliber that hits the aircraft in that one critical point that causes the aircraft to go down. In Nam it was routine for the VC to point their rifles either directly at the aircraft or straight up and pull the trigger, hoping for a hit. One example, an Air America log flight from Da Nang was shot down on takeoff by the sniper called Washing Machine Charlie that hid on the hill at the end of the runway. He was appearantly there for over a year, routinely shooting at the birds on takeoff and landing- that's a lot of rounds, and only 1 hit- AA investigated the wreck and found the pilot had been hit dead center with 1 round... Falls in the pure luck category for the sniper, and a Golden BB for the pilot.

If you ever see the videos of either the raid on Libya or the raid on Baghdad, look at where the fire is going- very little is aimed, most of it is shot virtually straight up in the air (and has to land somewhere). These rounds that came back down accounted for a lot of the so called collateral damage... :-0

280PLUS
October 14, 2005, 04:07 PM
Hey now 280 :-):D

So washing Machine Charlie had what, like 10,000 shots one kill?:p

I recall reading a sniper "how to" where they describe the basics of shooting a plane down with a rifle. WWI planes anyways...

;)

Old NFO
October 14, 2005, 11:14 PM
So washing Machine Charlie had what, like 10,000 shots one kill?

Something like that... Not bad unless you are the "one"...

280PLUS
October 15, 2005, 08:00 AM
Something like that... Not bad unless you are the "one"...

That's for sure, talk about bad luck!

:eek:

Father Knows Best
October 15, 2005, 08:12 AM
Anyone who thinks sailors always had it easy should read The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors by James Hornfischer. It has the most vivid and horrific descriptions of combat I have ever read. More info here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553802577/104-9827358-1519946?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

rms/pa
October 15, 2005, 09:12 AM
tin can sailors. good read

for a rather chilling acount of destroyers in action try the battle of lyte(sic)
gulf. san bernadino straight had DD's and DE's attacking cruisers and battleships.

suffice to say the survival of any of them was a miricle.

rms/pa

Owen
October 15, 2005, 03:00 PM
agreed, the last stand of the tin can sailers was great.

DE's and escort carriers against the Japanese battle line. Absolutely horrific descriptions of what 8" does to a 1250 ton destroyer.

oneshooter
October 15, 2005, 08:58 PM
Not to mention the results of 8", 14", and 16" to DD's, DE's and Jeep Carriers!:what:

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

MarkDido
October 16, 2005, 05:06 PM
I started in H-34's, went to H-2B's (3 emer landings in three weeks), EC-121, S-2F, P-2V7 (JMSDF) TA-4's, had time in F-4's, a couple of rides in A-6's (now THAT is an e-ticket ride form Whidbey to Fallon THROUGH the Cascades), Went back for flight training as an NFO, flew in T-2 and over 7500 hours in P-3's.

OldNFO

Ahhh, some of my favorite aircraft. I'm still partial to the older aircraft. Never liked the FA/18 much (affectionately known as the "Lawn Dart")

Started my long, illustrious naval career working on T-28's and S-2F's (Stoofs) in Corpus Christi.

P-2V! "two turning and 2 burning!" I saw a JMSDF P-2V on Guam when I was stationed there '77 - 80. Didn't they retrofit them with turboprops?

The F-4 Phantom - Proof that if you put big enough engines on a dumpster, it will fly! :D

Used to catch the occasional maintenance test hop in VT-27 with a mustang LT named Bill "Wild Bill" Rule. Met him on Guam years later. I think he was the skipper of a P-3 squadron.

When I got married on Guam, the "father of the bride" was an NFO named Dale Estes. He was CO of NAS Agana back then and I think he eventually got his star and went on to be COMNAVMAR.

Old NFO
October 16, 2005, 06:44 PM
OldNFO

P-2V! "two turning and 2 burning!" I saw a JMSDF P-2V on Guam when I was stationed there '77 - 80. Didn't they retrofit them with turboprops?

The F-4 Phantom - Proof that if you put big enough engines on a dumpster, it will fly! :D


Yep, they went to Kawasaki and had them refitted with two turboprops lots of power and MUCH longer range.

The F-4 (aka Flying Brick) was the only acft the Navy ever bought with a NEGATIVE glide ratio... 1:2 1 foot foward, 2 feet down and that was in a clean configuration! I knew a Bill RUle- was this in the late 70's early 80's'?
later
jim

MarkDido
October 17, 2005, 04:14 PM
Yep, they went to Kawasaki and had them refitted with two turboprops lots of power and MUCH longer range.

The F-4 (aka Flying Brick) was the only acft the Navy ever bought with a NEGATIVE glide ratio... 1:2 1 foot foward, 2 feet down and that was in a clean configuration! I knew a Bill RUle- was this in the late 70's early 80's'?
later
jim

I was at VT-27 with Bill Rule somewhere between 73 and 77
Bumped into him on Guam again somewhere between 77 and 80

Probably the same fella. He had a pretty prominent probiscis :D

Old NFO
October 17, 2005, 04:36 PM
I was at VT-27 with Bill Rule somewhere between 73 and 77
Bumped into him on Guam again somewhere between 77 and 80

Probably the same fella. He had a pretty prominent probiscis :D

Ah yes, the man with the NOSE ! That's the same guy!
later
jim

rms/pa
October 18, 2005, 01:54 AM
good grief! there are some old farts here,

i spent my christmas on GUAM(PM me for the acronym) in '80
first time they ever put a spruance in a floating dry dock. yall flyboys hid all the women. two days to put it in the dock, 4 days to take off the old sonar dome and 5 weeks for the glue to dry on the new dome. arrgh!

rms/pa

Old NFO
October 18, 2005, 02:27 AM
good grief! there are some old farts here,

i spent my christmas on GUAM(PM me for the acronym) in '80
first time they ever put a spruance in a floating dry dock. yall flyboys hid all the women. two days to put it in the dock, 4 days to take off the old sonar dome and 5 weeks for the glue to dry on the new dome. arrgh!

rms/pa

Hey now... I resemble that remark...LOL I did a deployment to NAS Agana Guam in 76, just in time for the Typhoon to try to blow it away. We were standing guard on the hangar with shotguns loaded with 00 buck to keep the brown snakes out (they were coming from everywhere). The winds got up enough that the entire roof of the hangar shifted about 6 inches! A bunch of other weird things happened that deployment too.

I also remember the Ordy chief yelling at everybody to remember to look before we shot to see if there was anything "important" behind the snakes...

thorn726
October 18, 2005, 04:26 AM
"Now you know why I joined the Navy - we took the chow hall into combat with us!"

that's hilarious.

well my dad had a big hand in these babies that although they keep modifying, are still based on desgins he helped with.
be sure to have plenty of them on hand!
very useful part of the operation, you'd be suprised the testing they go thru
http://www.edocorp.com/BRU46andBRU47.htm

280PLUS
October 18, 2005, 07:37 AM
I can't remember if it was '77 or '79 but I ws in Guam myself for 30 days while they untangled a steel cable off of our port screw. The only girls we found turned out to be not girls at all! :eek: But even those weren't as scary as the 500lb Samoan drag queens on Pago Pago.:eek: :eek: :eek:

We did attempt to dring the NAS EM club dry a few times. That's when the Doc told me something I'll never forget, "They can open them bottles a lot longer than you can drink 'em! "

:D

Old NFO
October 18, 2005, 05:45 PM
I can't remember if it was '77 or '79 but I ws in Guam myself for 30 days while they untangled a steel cable off of our port screw. The only girls we found turned out to be not girls at all! :eek: But even those weren't as scary as the 500lb Samoan drag queens on Pago Pago.:eek: :eek: :eek:

We did attempt to dring the NAS EM club dry a few times. That's when the Doc told me something I'll never forget, "They can open them bottles a lot longer than you can drink 'em! "

:D
Dang, you just HAD to bring them up didn't ya... I had completely fogotten about the Samoan drag queens... The only decent looking women in Guam were over at Anderson, I think the Air Foce kept them on retainer to stay over there :-)

280PLUS
October 18, 2005, 06:15 PM
Dang, you just HAD to bring them up didn't ya... I had completely fogotten about the Samoan drag queens... The only decent looking women in Guam were over at Anderson, I think the Air Foce kept them on retainer to stay over there :-) I don't know there's something about a 6' 8" tall looking 500 lb Samoan dressed in a Mumu and sporting a red Gardenia in his hair that I find very hard to forget. I whispered to my friend Ken "Ozzy" Osburne, "I think we better get outta here before he takes a liking to us!!" :p

I noticed when I was at my kid's boot camp graduation on Lackland that there were QUITE A FEW very attractive young ladies wearing AF uniforms. I was beginning to think maybe I had chosen the wrong branch oh so many years ago. I'm STILL not sure...:evil:

Old NFO
October 22, 2005, 11:18 PM
I don't know there's something about a 6' 8" tall looking 500 lb Samoan dressed in a Mumu and sporting a red Gardenia in his hair that I find very hard to forget. I whispered to my friend Ken "Ozzy" Osburne, "I think we better get outta here before he takes a liking to us!!" :p

I noticed when I was at my kid's boot camp graduation on Lackland that there were QUITE A FEW very attractive young ladies wearing AF uniforms. I was beginning to think maybe I had chosen the wrong branch oh so many years ago. I'm STILL not sure...:evil:

Hehehe- Yep that could be true too 280 Plus... Just got back from Lovely Yoko- 2 earthquakes and 1 typhoon in 6 days. I did see a couple of USN cuties- However, they were wearing M92's and carrying shotguns (pier guards for Blue Ridge)!

nyresq
October 23, 2005, 05:30 AM
Saw a t-shirt last time fleet week was in NYC:

"when you absolutly, positivly need it destroyed overnight: U.S. MARINES"
and underneath some one had writing in permanant marker "as long as someone will be nice enough to give us a ride"

probably written by a navy guy

280PLUS
October 23, 2005, 10:06 AM
I did see a couple of USN cuties- However, they were wearing M92's and carrying shotguns (pier guards for Blue Ridge)! Last WAVE I recall was working a hawser on a tugboat. I think her arms were bigger than mine!:eek:

"when you absolutly, positivly need it destroyed overnight: U.S. MARINES"
and underneath some one had writing in permanant marker "as long as someone will be nice enough to give us a ride" Now THAT'S PRICELESS!!

:D

Old NFO
October 23, 2005, 01:05 PM
Saw a t-shirt last time fleet week was in NYC:

"when you absolutly, positivly need it destroyed overnight: U.S. MARINES"
and underneath some one had writing in permanant marker "as long as someone will be nice enough to give us a ride"

probably written by a navy guy

nyresq it probably was:D A friend of mine commands one of the 'new" ESG's (Expeditionary Strike Group) that is working out in 5th and 7th Fleets. They carry an entire Marine Expeditionary Unit and hardware, plus all associated helo's, plus have enough surface and "other" forces to deliver anything from M-16 fire up to Tomahawks on target. Incidentally, they are proudest of the work they are doing to provide Medical and humanitarian aid in that part of the world!!!!:) They have rebuilt at least two orphanages and spent a lot of time providing medical care. One of the biggest problems is getting the ships enough time in port to maintain the prescribed OPTEMPO/PERSTEMPO ratios...:(

And yeah 280, there are still a few of them around too!!!!

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