ND injury at local range


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Archer
March 29, 2003, 09:39 PM
Sorry to say, I was on the scene of the aftermath of a negligent discharge which injured a shooter at a popular Salt Lake City area range today.

In the interest of getting yet another safety object lesson out to our community, I'll relate the event.

Some CAS participants had set up a series of poppers and steel swingers within about 10 yards of the shooting line on the 25 yard range, next to the 15-yard range where I was practicing on API targets. With a tall berm between me and the other shooters I wasn't too concerned about splash.

A large group of shooters was also using the range I was on.

Not long after the CAS guys got started, I noted a commotion and made my way over to where one of the CAS guys was lying on the ground. One of the people in the group on my bench was a Life Flight EMT, who fortunately had his belt kit available. He got to work immediately, with minor assistance from myself and other shooters.

The CAS participant had apparently negligently fired his weapon as he was reholstering. The projectile entered his thigh about two inches below the hip and exited not far above the knee. The individual had lost consciousness momentarily (fainted) and required treatment for shock. Compresses were applied to control the relatively minor bleeding. Though shocky, the mid-50's victim was lucid and had a good pulse rate.

After initial treatment the individual was transported to a local hospital.

Remember the safety rules folks.

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DMK
March 30, 2003, 12:30 AM
Well, thank God he wasn't injured more seriously.

That's certainly a powerful reminder to keep the finger out of the darn trigger guard.

Jim March
March 30, 2003, 03:08 AM
Classic.

Thank GOD the Femorals run along the inside of the thighbone. These sorts of re-holstering accidents are almost never fatal.

Doesn't mean it isn't something to be damned careful about.

However...this is a very strange accident for a single action revolver! Even if your finger is in the triggerguard as you re-holster, it's no big deal unless the gun is also *cocked*.

They can be tricky other times, especially reloading if it's a "true SAA clone" with no internal safety. Muzzle direction drill is critical. But re-holstering?

:confused:

I wonder if he had a high primer and a LOT of endshake? As he holstered, a tight holster rammed the cylinder backwards and cranked the primer off?

Feanaro
March 30, 2003, 03:13 AM
I'm glad he's still alive but he should have been more careful. When you get sloppy, you or others are put at risk.

El Tejon
March 30, 2003, 07:38 AM
THR Chorus? "RULE #3!"

The Four Rules even apply to CAS (even though you have "common sense").

geekWithA.45
March 30, 2003, 11:05 AM
"Whether you call it an accidental, uninitentional, or negligent discharge, they all mean the same thing. They mean that your gun has fired without 100% of your intention of doing so, and THAT IS NEVER A GOOD THING."

Archer
March 30, 2003, 11:15 AM
Saxonpig,

I generally respect your point of view and often find myself in agreement with your posts here. However, I do not agree with you on this point.


neg·li·gent
adj.

1. Characterized by or inclined to neglect, especially habitually.
2. Characterized by careless ease or informality; casual.

\Neg"li*gent\, a. [F. n['e]gligent, L. negligens,p. pr. of negligere. See Neglect.] Apt to neglect; customarily neglectful; characterized by negligence; careless; heedless; culpably careless; showing lack of attention; as, disposed in negligent order.

WHAT IS INAPPROPRIATE ABOUT THAT TERM IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS INCIDENT ?

Diluting the term with something more "PC" than NEGLIGENT tends to shift the blame for the incident to some other agency than the person's lack of due diligence.

NEGLIGENT underscores the integral participation of the human element in this sort of thing. Guns do NOT jump off tables and shoot at people of their own accord.

It requires human NEGLIGENCE.

I'm glad it makes you uncomfortable. THAT IS THE INTENT.

Shoeless
March 30, 2003, 04:54 PM
I'm with Archer. Some degree of negligence is *required* to cause this type of incident, UNLESS the firearm somehow malfunctions.

Shoeless

BamBam
March 30, 2003, 06:44 PM
We were just discussing Accidental vs. Negligent discharges last week. The instructor said that ADs were super rare; usually a broken sear or spring causing a semi-auto to fire multiple times with a single pull of the trigger.

Negligent is a more accurate term for the vast majority of unintentional discharges. "Accidental" almost implies "it could happen to anybody". Just what the antis love to hear.

DMK
March 30, 2003, 07:50 PM
I have to agree also. Unless a broken weapon caused the discharge, it's negligence. Putting suger on it doesn't make it better.

Atticus
March 30, 2003, 09:18 PM
"Accidental" almost implies "it could happen to anybody". Just what the antis love to hear.

It can happen to anybody...regardless of what you call it. To assume otherwise is almost a guarantee that it will.

blades67
March 30, 2003, 09:37 PM
The guy made a mistake, getting your panties in a bunch about which adjective is used to describe it is a waste of time.:rolleyes:

Big_R
March 31, 2003, 12:38 AM
I'm sad to hear about things like this, but it does provide an opportunity to bring up the importance of first aid training. The victim was lucky that there was an EMT there, but anyone who invests a few hours at a decent advanced first aid class would have had the same effect.

I took a first responder course in 1993 paid for by the company I worked for. In the first year, I was first on the scene for two car accidents, one motorcycle accident, and the daughter of my friend being hit by a car, not to mention all sorts of things I responded to at the plant. Nothing beats being prepared.

Ryan

TallPine
March 31, 2003, 08:54 AM
Sounds to me like he holstered a cocked revolver ...

Feanaro
March 31, 2003, 08:57 AM
If you shoot yourself with a single action revolver then you didn't have an accident, you had a brain fart. :D

MrAcheson
March 31, 2003, 09:31 AM
SASS requires a gun be holstered with the hammer down on an empty or fired chamber for just this reason. That way its safe regardless of the internal safeties on the gun. They monitor when you load, when you holster, and when you unload to make sureof safety. The range officer is supposed to be monitoring the shooter for safety. Looks like more than one person wasn't paying attention.

12-34hom
March 31, 2003, 10:01 AM
Archer, do you know what type of handgun he was using at the time of accident?

12-34hom.

J Miller
March 31, 2003, 10:32 AM
I've been thinking about this a while. He was reholstering a loaded gun.

About the only way the ND could have happened is, as he was holstering it, the hammer got snagged on part of his clothing and (if it was a Vaquero) he had his finger on the trigger.
If it was a Colt or a clone he wouldn't have needed to have his finger on the trigger because the hammer falling could have sheared off the safety notch and fired the gun.

I say this because it has happened. But I'm only armchair SWAGing it.

braindead0
March 31, 2003, 10:53 AM
involves negligence unless there is a mechanical failure involved

A mechanical failure is due to negligence as well, somebody messed up.. whether it's the owner or manufacturer. Guns don't kill people, nor do they discharge by themselves.

Selfdfenz
March 31, 2003, 12:26 PM
People amaze me sometimes. Years ago it was almost always called an AD.
I still tend to think of these kinds of events as ADs.
Now it's an ND. Ok, so what!!
I'll admit that I had one. August 1968. No injury thank God. It was both and AD and an ND in my book.

Let's not start a Jehad over this.



"A mechanical failure is due to negligence as well, somebody messed up.. whether it's the owner or manufacturer."

Things break. Things wear out. Such is life.
Unfortunately I don't have the x-ray machines and electron microscopes to check out every part of every weapon I own after I fire them on each and every occassion to make sure metal fatigue is not slipping up on me from behind.

No flame intended but that statement covers a lot of ground don't you think?

But then again, I'm betting mechanical failure is not what caused the discharge that resulted in this person's injury. I hope he has a full and speedy recovery.

S-

I hate to admit that I have come to believe that of the group of people that use and handle guns a lot there are two sub-groups. Those that have had AD/NDs and those that will in the future.

Archer
March 31, 2003, 06:29 PM
I know this always starts a big argument but there are good reasons for avoiding this term.

Well you were right Saxonpig... about the first part ;)

zahc
March 31, 2003, 10:40 PM
I say car crash

Detritus
March 31, 2003, 11:23 PM
don't know if you would know or not but....

was the group this gentleman was part of SASS, or NCOWS affiliated?? or possibly even a non-affiliated group just out shooting CAS style guns?

reason i ask is NCOWS (National Congress of Old West Shooters) allows period Double action revolvers (colt lightning/thunderer, the DA S&W guns, etc). and and while this does not negate the "should have been paying attention" factor it does make a leeway IF the shooter wasn't using a Single action, also an NCOWS legal DA (which as i understand must be a design from Prior to ~1898, and there are no modern repros of most of those guns) is going to be a little more prone to mechanical trouble.


now if it was a group that was trying out the concept of a locla shoot and not yet affiliated with a "parent" orginization, hen all bets are off. in such case many times folks aren't paying attention to what they're doing for squat anyway, AND there is no telling what type of gear was being used.

just had to ask/ put that in. b/c there is a misconception that SASS is teh only CAS group. it's not, it just happens to be the most populat worldwide at the moment, mainly b/c the firearms and costuming (clothing) requirements are less rigid than NCOWS (Ncows is strictly 1800's guns and clothing, no ruger pistols adn no "fantasy/B-western" clothing)

Archer
April 1, 2003, 09:39 AM
It appeared to be a bunch of friends who were trying out their new steel targets (too close !) with CAS gear, nothing more than that. Not a match, and not the "full regalia" of CAS I have seen. Perhaps I should not refer to it as CAS, but most of the elements were there.

Sorry I didn't gather more specifics than that- was more concerned about things like wound pressure, shock treatment, and crowd control (you would not believe how many people feel the need to "have a look for themselves" when something unusual happpens... but very few seem to actually feel the need to HELP.)

I did have someone make certain the weapons were cleared before they were put away.

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