125 grain bullet for .357

[Mr_Moore]

I did a search on this subject and did not find an answer to my question.

Why is the 125 grain .357 recommended for a self defense round. It is what I carry - Remington hollow point semi jacketed, but I am not sure why I am doing it.

I have shot the 158 grain and the 110 grain and do not notice too much difference.

On a side note: There is an interesting curved pattern on this ammo where the brass meets the lead. I am suspecting that it aids in expansion.

[ChristopherG]

Why is the 125 grain .357 recommended for a self defense round. It is what I carry - Remington hollow point semi jacketed, but I am not sure why I am doing it.

You're doing it because the 125 gr. 357 JHP in the Remington and Federal loadings have an earned reputation for effectiveness against aggressors. They were commonly used by gov. and police agencies; they have been used in many, many shootings and seem to have worked.


On a side note: There is an interesting curved pattern on this ammo where the brass meets the lead. I am suspecting that it aids in expansion.

The 'scalloped' pattern is probably what you're looking at. It comes at the line where the copper jacketing of the bullet proper begins, and yes, it is designed to aid expansion of the HP. The brass is further 'down' the cartridge--the straight line where the copper bullet casing goes into the brass cartridge case.

[Bob79]

I've got Remington Golden Sabers (125gr .357) in my model 66 at home. I like it because its not loaded as hot as most other .357 rounds, and the recoil is very light. I believe its still rated at 1,100+ FPS and that is pretty good for a SD round in my opinion.

Some people say that 125 grain is the lowest you should go in weight for a .357 mag round, and seems most even prefer a heavier bullet. I've just found that the heavier stuff, while still fairly controllable in a larger gun like the model 66, still hurts my accuracy more. And as we all know...a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45acp.

[Mr_Moore]

The 'scalloped' pattern is probably what you're looking at. It comes at the line where the copper jacketing of the bullet proper begins

Yes, it is a scalloped pattern. Remington does make a brass jacketed hollow point bullet. (see the link below)

Remington and Federal loadings have an earned reputation for effectiveness against aggressors

Yes, that is why I chose Remington, but I was not sure about the 125 grain.

Some people say that 125 grain is the lowest you should go in weight for a .357 mag round, and seems most even prefer a heavier bullet. I've just found that the heavier stuff, while still fairly controllable in a larger gun like the model 66, still hurts my accuracy more.

I have read that the 125 is the recommended bullet. That is why I am asking the question. I was not sure that that was a factual statement. I am beginning to think it is more of an opinion.

Are you saying that the heaver bullet would have more impact on the target but the lighter bullet recoil is more controllable?

Here are ballistic tables from Remington but I do not know how to interpret them. I know that kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity times the mass of the projectile (K.E.=1/2 x m x v ^ 2), but I am not sure what effect this has on the shooter and target.

http://www.remington.com/NR/exeres/0000153aqbylzuwwdbhturum/pr_new.asp?NRMODE=Published&cal=5&NRORIGINALURL=%2fammo%2fballistics%2fpr%2fresults%2easp%3fcal%3d5&NRNODEGUID=%7b3F10E3F3-41C5-4049-BB35-413933E4A41D%7d&NRQUERYTERMINATOR=1&cookie%5Ftest=1

[pauli]

nobody is going to be able to tell you if he was shot with a 125grainer or a 158. either one, properly employed, won't leave him in a position to be talking even if he knew!

lately, i've been shooting fed jsp 158@1250 and rem jsp 125@1450, and the heck if i can tell a difference between them, either at my end or on paper.

use whatever load you shoot best. that matters more than velocity, weight, and bullet selection.

[Bob79]

Yes, carry what you shoot best. But the 158 grain stuff that travels as fast at the 125 grain stuff is going to have more energy and will recoil more. The ligther stuff almost always recoils less.

To figure bullet energy...velocityXvelocityXmass, all divided by 450,200.

[cjg]

hey there. i just bought my first handgun, the S&W 636P .357, and i have some basic questions about cartridges.

1) what differences does a heavier or larger grain cartridge have?

2) from my understanding, the case is made of brass, the jacket of the bullet is made of copper, and the bullet is made of lead. is this correct? and if so, is this true for all cartridges?

3) are there different types of gunpowder used for cartridges?

4) what are the differences between a centerfire and a rimfire primer?

5) is there such a thing as a fully-jacketed hollow point?

6) are hollow points less accurate than a non-hollow point which i think are called wadcutters?

thanks for any answers you can give me.

[ChristopherG]

1) It's the bullet weight that matters. A heavier bullet, as noted, will recoil more at a given velocity. It will also penetrate deeper into a target and do more damage (in typical & comparable handgun cartridges). Also, guns may prove more accurate with one bullet weight than another.

2) Correct, usually. Sometimes a bullet will have a brass or even aluminum jacket, however; and sometimes the brass case will be plated in nickel. In some military ammo, the case or the bullet itself may be wholly or partially comprised of steel. In Blazer ammunition from speer, the case is aluminum. So--many exceptions, but you've described the rule.

3) Yes. Many.

4) The primer on a rimfire is not a separate component as in the centerfire; it is spun into the hollow rim of the case with a centrifuge. The hammer of a rimfire then strikes the rim, to 'fire' it.

5) Yes, lots. That's why the 'semi-jacketed' hollowpoints are so labeled.

6) No. JHP's are typically very accurate. The advantages of Wadcutters is the big, full-caliber hole they cut in paper targets. Their design also allows very fine accuracy at relatively low velocities, but only over short distances.

[cjg]

thanks christopher, to go in to more detail:

1) so does the grain measure the weight of the bullet rather than the weight of the entire cartridge? and what is the range of grain weights?

2) what difference does a brass, nickel-plated brass, aluminum, or steel case make when shooting?

3) is a centerfire primer better than a rimfire?

4) when they say .357 or 9mm is that the diameter of the cartridge or the bullet because i imagine the bullet is smaller than the cartridge?

i appreciate your help.

[ChristopherG]

1) Yes; it's the weight of the bullet (in grains; 7,000 grains to a pound). The overall weight of the cartridge is altered by variations in case weight and powder charge weight (also measured in grains), but is not typically relevant to most shooters--unless they are also reloaders. The range of bullet weights differs by caliber/cartridge. For a 357, the 'normal' range is 110-180 grains. For a 9mm, 115-147. For a little 22 lr, it's 30-40. For a big 45 Colt, they'll start at 'lightweights' like 165 and go way up yonder to 350 and beyond.

2) When shooting, it makes basically no difference. If you become a reloader, and you want to reload your cartridge cases (the most expensive component part of the cartridge), then aluminum and steel are out. Nickel plating is done for cosmetic reasons and to resist long-term corrosion.

3) A centerfire primer is more reliable than a rimfire primer. Rimfire rounds are typically small ones--plinking, target, and small-game rounds like the 22 long rifle and its many offspring. Great rounds, but not life-and-death situation guns, because rimfires misfire too frequently (and they are comparatively very weak cartridges).

4) Those numbers are the diameter of the bullet. .357 is thousandths of an inch, and 9mm is...well, millimeters, which happens to convert to .355 caliber (i.e., very close to a .357 in bullet size).

No problem with the answers, I like to write and am avoiding things I should be doing ;)

[thatguy]

I clearly detect a difference in shooting 110s and 158s. Less so when comparing 110s to 125s. Heavier bullets in recoil more but we can't always tell the difference and some shooters are mosre sensitive to the changes than others.

The 125 in .357 has proven a good performer. Simple. Some prefer the heavier slugs. Personal choice. Any will do.

[M2 Carbine]

In most anything I favor the heaviest bullet that still has enough velocity to expand well.
In the .357 I like the 158 grain weight.

[HighVelocity]

I've got Remington Golden Sabers (125gr .357) in my model 66 at home

I like the 125gr Golden Sabres too. The have been really accurate and consistant in my snubs. Recoil is very manageable.

[ChristopherG]

I favor the heaviest bullet that still has enough velocity to expand well

Well put, and I agree; which is why, while I respect the 125 gr loads, I view them basically as a relic of the time before higher quality expanding bullets like Gold Dots. The initial 357 load was an extremely hot 158 gr. lead bullet. When jacketed bullets became the rage, a 158 going as fast as they needed for expansion was just not controllable; so the 125's came along to save the day. These days, you don't NEED to make a JHP go 1450 fps to get it to expand, so it seems (if you're starting from scratch) like a 158 makes more sense.

For my purposes, I prefer a handloaded 147 gr. Gold Dot at about 1,000 fps and think it adequate for most situations I can foresee; I just don't like the idea of a relatively light bullet like the 125 (since there are good choices out there in heavier bullets) when the bodies of Americans have gotten so much thicker than they were when these bullets earned their street cred.

[grendelbane]

I just don't like the idea of a relatively light bullet like the 125 (since there are good choices out there in heavier bullets) when the bodies of Americans have gotten so much thicker than they were when these bullets earned their street cred.

HEY! I resemble that remark!

[James T Thomas]

I don't know this for certain, but I believe that the full jacketed hollow point bullet is designed for deeper penetration, that is by virtue of "controlled expansion," while the partial jacketed h.p. -which is usually a lighter weight and corresponding higher velocity, is for rapid expansion.

Reliable expansion seems dependent on the combination of the matching of bullet weight and design velocity for the particular weight.
The weight giving the bullet the property of sectional density; how much "oomph" behind that bullet while it is in the process of expansion.
All the time this is going on; dependent on the projectile remaining in one piece.

The threshold velocity had been previously ~1000fps for expansion, but the current bullet tech. has reliable expansion for some designs occurring at somewhat lower velocities.

However, at the slower speeds, now a heavier bullet is required to give adequate penetration.

Please don't add in recoil!

"Parameters!"

Have you got a headache?

[Dienekes]

Simple. About 20 years of experience and pretty good data from police shootings. For some esoteric terminal ballistic reason the .357/125 delivered a higher percentage of "one shot stops" than anything else out there--out of all proportion to expectations. In some circles it was referred to as a "death ray".

Drawbacks to it were fairly ferocious recoil in K frame guns, accelerated wear, and often a huge fireball at night.

All of which I regard as minor shortcomings for the usual results. I do throttle down handloads by about 10% for practice but carry the full monty.

[LeonCarr]

Up until the late 80's/early 90's, the Texas Highway Patrol carried the 4 inch barrel S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman .357 revolver loaded with the .357 Magnum Remington 125 grain semi-jacketed hollowpoint, also known as the "scalloped jacket" hollow point. Most troopers called this ammunition the "Lightning Bolt" because of the way it put bad guys down :). The troopers had the opportunity to buy their Model 28s when they got replaced with Sig P220 .45s, and most troopers bought their wheelguns.

I would not feel undergunned at all with an N-frame Model 28 loaded with "Lightning Bolts".

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[pezo]

I like to shoot the hotter factory ammo but have stayed away from 125 grain ammo due to its reputation for increased forcing cone erosion. My rugers seem to shoot 158 grain ammo the most accurately anyways. I find 148 grain fiocthi's to be real "hot" as well. also federal hydroshocks 130 gr and partition golds 180 grain are nice.:)

[Cosmoline]

Good question. IMHO, the 125 grain .357 magnum round is *NOT* ideal for self defense. The bullets are too light. I use the 158 grain loads or heavier, whether gold dot, standard HP or whatever. There have been other threads debating this issue at length, but from what I've learned it appears that the "small and fast" movement was as much the product of marketing as anything else. To my knowledge there is no data to suggest that, given modern SP or HP rounds, a 125 grainer is going to be more effective than a heavier round.

And as has been noted, we're much bigger than we were fifty years ago. Not just in fat but in height and bone structure. Look at GI surplus clothes from WWII for some real examples.