ak/47. sight/ red-dot questions.


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garrett1955
October 13, 2005, 07:55 PM
ok i'v been looking at a new sight system for my ak. i know i dont want a scope. i'v been looking at the red dots. bushnell looks nice. i dont know where i should mount it to gas tube, or rear mount? i would like it to be towards the rear of the gun but im a left handed shooter, so the side mounts are useualy so far off it wouldnt work. the cover mouints dont hold zero? so how are they when mounted up front? anyone have any good suggestions?

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Father Knows Best
October 13, 2005, 08:21 PM
You need one of these:
http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/high/ekp-8mbig01.jpg

It's an authentic Russian Kobra holographic sight on a side rail mount. It's what the Russian special forces (Spetznaz) use. I have one for my Arsenal SA M-7S. It is completely parallax free, easy to zero, and has four selectable reticle patterns (including a plain 1 MOA red dot). The reticle adjusts for all lighting conditions. The side mount is excellent. I can mount and dismount numerous times and it holds zero just fine. Cost delivered to you is about $190 from Tantal.

For more info, check our Tantal's excellent site: http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/bstkobra.html

beerslurpy
October 13, 2005, 09:03 PM
PKAS is better and it works without batteries if necessary. Here it is on my saiga12. It is usually mounted on my ban-style SAM7.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8b/Saiga_pkas_on.jpg

beerslurpy
October 13, 2005, 09:05 PM
Nice posting a pic of the 4-row 60 rder mag (your soldier) . I would love to get some of those.

Father Knows Best
October 13, 2005, 09:13 PM
The pic isn't mine. I hot-linked to Tantal's website. It is a great pic, though, and those mags are definitely cool.

I'll take the libery of hotlinking to another pic at Tantal's site. Here's a great shot showing a PK-AS-S on an AK-105 (on the left) and a PK-AS-V on a Saiga (right):

http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/media2/ak105_062.jpg

The PK-AS-V is "over the bore" if that matters to you. It looks like it sits higher than the PK-AS-S, though, which would be a disadvantage in my book.

I haven't tried the PK-AS, so I can't compare it to the Kobra. I love the Kobra, though. It is quick, light and accurate. I don't consider the need for a battery to be a big disadvantage. Batteries are cheap and readily available. In the unlikely event of a SHTF scenario and I can't get more batteries, I can always just remove the Kobra and use the irons -- it takes about two seconds.

TIMC
October 13, 2005, 10:06 PM
Here is mine with the Ultimak mount, very sturdy, holds zero well and very easy to use with the a holosight. I have the Bushnell holosight on mine. This is the best setup I hve found yet.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/timc/SAR1withlaser.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/timc/holosight.jpg

garrett1955
October 13, 2005, 10:10 PM
yeah i was looking at the kobra. thanks for the great pic. the sight seems to be centered on top of the gun. does anyone know if it seems to be up a little high or is it just right? thanks for all the replys!

TIMC
October 13, 2005, 10:24 PM
When you look at the picture of the rifle you will notice the risor I added on the stock. It made it the perfect height for a good cheek weld and instant sight alignment as soon as my cheek hits the stock. It would be high for a standard stock but so are most all of the add on sights out there.

Father Knows Best
October 13, 2005, 10:26 PM
The Kobra I have isn't the one in the picture above. I have the EKP-8-02, which is a newer model. It looks like this mounted:

http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/media/xekp-8_02.JPG

It does sit a little higher than the PK-AS-S, or one of the red dots on an Ultimak. I find it very comfortable and easy to use, though.

garrett1955
October 13, 2005, 10:36 PM
thanks guys i think im going to go with the kobra. seems to have good reviews and is in my price rance too. i would love to get a aim point but i will save the cash and put it towards my new .50 i want bad!

Zak Smith
October 14, 2005, 01:22 AM
If I were going to do this, it would be a DocterSight on the Ultimak rail.

clange
October 14, 2005, 03:14 AM
You'll be happy with the kobra. Its a hell of a sight for the money.

I like the 03m model (http://freedomoptics.com/Comersus/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=101). Looks the best IMO, and uses AA batteries.

Sleeping Dog
October 14, 2005, 06:54 AM
I like the Kobra. I just wish it came with a timed, automatic shutoff. Us old farts have trouble remembering to turn it off. Now I keep extra batteries in the range bag. Fortunately mine takes normal AA batteries.

It seems to be mounted at a comfortable height. Easy to pick up a target quick, with both eyes open.

Regards.

AK103K
October 14, 2005, 04:16 PM
I have a couple of AK's with the Ultimak and a red dot mounted. Its really the only way to go and well worth the money spent. The rear mounted sights sit to high and are in your face, making fast, natural shooting difficult. With the sight mounted low, up front and out of the way, its very fast and natural to shoot with and it shoulders like a rifle with just iron sights. Depending on which sight and rings/mount you use, you can also co-witness your iron sights.

This is my AK103K with the Ultimak and an Aimpoint ML2 on it.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid162/p46023266c9d40579d7b0b28445bacf02/f4b00706.jpg


Sleeping Dog,
If you go with the Aimpoints, you can just leave them on and change the batteries twice a year(to be safe) with your smoke detectors. The M2/ML2 have a 10,000 hour battery life, and the M3 has a 50,000 hour battery life. Even if you half that, its 6 months or 2.5 years. :)

Father Knows Best
October 14, 2005, 04:39 PM
I have a couple of AK's with the Ultimak and a red dot mounted. Its really the only way to go and well worth the money spent. The rear mounted sights sit to high and are in your face, making fast, natural shooting difficult. With the sight mounted low, up front and out of the way, its very fast and natural to shoot with and it shoulders like a rifle with just iron sights. Depending on which sight and rings/mount you use, you can also co-witness your iron sights.

This is my AK103K with the Ultimak and an Aimpoint ML2 on it.

That is a great looking setup. I'd love to try it out. We need to figure out a way to get together so we can run your Ultimak/Aimpoint side-by-side with my Kobra.

AK103K
October 14, 2005, 04:51 PM
I'm not going to be getting to TN anytime soon, and I wish I was going to Knob Creek this year, or I'd say I'd meet you there. If your coming up this way, let me know. :)

If you can find someone local with this type set up, I highly recommend giving it a try. I know you'll be sold on it. I have a couple more with basically the same set up, and as money allows will probably add a couple more.

Here's my SOCOM and Armalite with the Aimpoints on them.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid161/p056b66ea4d53f4ad5f6611ef8c5c4d88/f4cc9cd6.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid161/p74ab2326e64202724bf0e01456e279f8/f4c8daae.jpg

garrett1955
October 14, 2005, 11:29 PM
so it seems it's a little easyer with the forward mounted sight??? but then others like the rear mounted sight? what do i do ahhhh the big decision!!!

AK103K
October 15, 2005, 07:48 AM
I think you would see a lot more of the forward mounted sights and scopes if more people had tried them and saw how well they work. Its usually just a pain and a fair amount of money to get them set up just to try them out though. I also think price is an issue, the Russian stuff is a good bit cheaper than the Ultimak and a good dot sight. Then there is always the "keeping it authentic" thought.

If you have a dot sight laying around, tape it on the top cover and upper handguard and check it out. It will be sitting a little high on the handguard, but you will get the idea.

garrett1955
October 15, 2005, 08:54 AM
i wouldnt mind it up front so much, but the thing is after every shoot i like to dismantle my gun for a good cleaning. i always take the gas tube off to clean it out and what not. so i dont know how well that will hold a zero, compared to the rear scope mount that seems a little more secure and the same zero when its removed and put back on??? does anyone with the front mount take their gas tube off?

klover
October 15, 2005, 10:32 AM
While you're at it, why not make a steel mount with the rail above the scope, the scope upside down, and a means to reseat so as not to loose center when the tube is removed for cleaning.

Ok, you talked me into it.... NOW PLEASE GIVE ME THE DIMENSIONS that I need to work with.....anyone tinker out there?:confused:

I can't afford to buy red dots or acogs simply to get their dimensions. Can anyone please help me out? Collaborators can get a proto type mount for their efforts if I make more than one from relliable info.;)

AK103K
October 15, 2005, 10:39 AM
The Ultimak stays on, its attached to the barrel. I clean the gas tube with some patches and an M16 gas tube pipe cleaner on mine. Never had any troubles yet and I've got a number of thousands through it. I was worried at first too, but its proven to not be an issue, at least for me.

As far as the security issue, the Ultimak stays very secure if mounted right(kind of hard to mount it wrong :) ) I use lever mounts on my sights so I can swap them out if I want(dot to scope). Never had any problems with zero that way.

clange
October 15, 2005, 02:36 PM
I think you would see a lot more of the forward mounted sights and scopes if more people had tried them and saw how well they work. Its usually just a pain and a fair amount of money to get them set up just to try them out though. I also think price is an issue, the Russian stuff is a good bit cheaper than the Ultimak and a good dot sight. Then there is always the "keeping it authentic" thought.

If you have a dot sight laying around, tape it on the top cover and upper handguard and check it out. It will be sitting a little high on the handguard, but you will get the idea.
Good points. A 'good' american red dot plus ultimak is probably double the cost of a kobra. The kobra and PK sights are military quality sights, and are quite rugged. Authenticity is a big reason a lot of people go with them as well. I understand if its just a shooter, but if its any kind of clone you start thinking about whats 'correct' for the rifle (or at least close to correct, since many service rifles never see a red dot). I could never bring myself to use anything else on my AR-M1F clone (AKS-74)..

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/clange/AR-M1F.jpg

Another good thing about the kobra is the ring around the lense is very small, and since its so close to your eye it just disappears. I havent tried the scout mount yet, but based upon shooting one of my handguns with a red dot (probably about the same distance from the eye) it seems like you'd get more of the 'looking through a tube' thing whereas the kobra just seems like a laser.

i always take the gas tube off to clean it out and what not. so i dont know how well that will hold a zero, compared to the rear scope mount that seems a little more secure and the same zero when its removed and put back on??? does anyone with the front mount take their gas tube off?
I dont think the ultimak will return to zero after its removed, but you can clean the gas tube from behind the rear sight. The only time you'd have to take the ulitmak off was to clean the gas port, or clean between the handguards. Its not something you really need to do often.

garrett1955
October 15, 2005, 03:32 PM
yeah i guess thats true about cleaning the gas tube by just pulling the bolt out and cleaning it that way. never evern gave it a thought.lol but i think im going to go with the kobra. i just cant decide which one http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/bstkobra.html
the top one with out the sun shield or the older one with it. does anyone know the differences between the two???

clange
October 15, 2005, 03:54 PM
yeah i guess thats true about cleaning the gas tube by just pulling the bolt out and cleaning it that way. never evern gave it a thought.lol but i think im going to go with the kobra. i just cant decide which one http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/bstkobra.html
the top one with out the sun shield or the older one with it. does anyone know the differences between the two???
The newest one is the one with the rubber sun shield. The older ones can use a metal one it looks like, but they dont come with one.

As far as differences, the 03m, the one with the sun shield, uses AA batteries, has covers over the adjustment dials, and has the control on the left side. The other two use the small disc like batteries. It probably weighs a few ounces more, and I think controls on the right side would be easier to manipulate, but the fact it takes AAs is a pretty big plus IMO. I've got two of the 03m's. If you're not in a hurry you can check out some for sale boards at ak47.net, or gunsnet.net. I got my last one, like new, for $135 shipped.

Father Knows Best
October 15, 2005, 04:23 PM
The newest one is the one with the rubber sun shield. The older ones can use a metal one it looks like, but they dont come with one.


I think you have it backward. The EKP-1S is the original Kobra. It comes with the sun shield. The EKP-1S-03M is an updated version that uses AA batteries, but it is still the first gen Kobra.

The EKP-8-02 is the "Gen II" Kobra. It is the newer technology.

I have the EKP-8-02, and I'm very happy with it. I've never compared it side-by-side with a 1S, though.

Cpl Punishment
October 15, 2005, 06:42 PM
Well, there's several opinions on this, so I'll chime in with mine.

Keep in mind, I'm not trying to argue with anyone, this is what works for ME.

For a rear mounted sight, IMO the Kobra EKP-1S-03M is the best. It is a military(Russian)-spec optic and is rugged and reliable. Personally, I prefer this version'a use of AA batteries as it allows me to use batteries I stockpile for other electronic goodies. Also, I prefer the holographic "heads-up" kind of sight for the rear mount because if your head is somewhat off to the side, the red dot "tube" sights will restrict your field of view, whereas the holographic sights don't. This might not be a problem at the range, but we tend to like to visualize our rifle being used for serious purposes, and this would be a bad thing in the field (or even the hunting field). The Bushnell sights are probably a little clearer than the Kobra, but cost twice the money and you have to buy the mounting hardware separately.

For an Ultimak mount, I prefer the red dot "tube" sights. I don't know why, my eyes work better with them in a forward mount. Only problem here is that, as far as I can see, none of the Russian red dot optics come on a piccatinny rail, they all have integral rear mounts and wouldn't work on an ultimak. The other options are the cheaper red dots, that aren't mil-spec and are not as rugged as a mil-spec optic, or go with the mil-spec Aimpoints, which are undoubtedly the best, but carry a $400+ price tag.

I suppose if I was mounting something to a high-end (Krebs) AK, I could see mounting an EOTech or Bushnell holosight to a rear mount, or an Aimpoint to an Ultimak, but for a standard AK, the Russian models are very good, very rugged, and half the price. Definite best buys IMO.

Plus, I believe Tantal offers free shipping to the continental US.

AK103K
October 15, 2005, 06:42 PM
clange,

Nice rifle. :)

Who did the work?

I like the folder, was it part of the package? I'm interested in one of the solid type, like on the AK 103's.

As for this: "it seems like you'd get more of the 'looking through a tube' thing..."

I guess if you focused on the tube and the dot, it would look like this. I'm usually looking at the target and the dot is just out there on it, so I really dont notice the sight itself. But now that you brought it up, its probably all I'll see every time I look at it now! Thanks a lot there buddy! :D

clange
October 15, 2005, 09:33 PM
I think you have it backward. The EKP-1S is the original Kobra. It comes with the sun shield. The EKP-1S-03M is an updated version that uses AA batteries, but it is still the first gen Kobra.

The EKP-8-02 is the "Gen II" Kobra. It is the newer technology.

I have the EKP-8-02, and I'm very happy with it. I've never compared it side-by-side with a 1S, though.
Whoops, guess you're right. I misread the descriptions. Tantal says the gen IIs use the lithium batteries for better performance in cold weather. Makes sense. And like i said before, the controls would be better on the right side, so that makes sense as well. I think thats the only difference though?

clange,

Nice rifle. :)

Who did the work?
Thanks. :) It was built by a guy on ak47.net named Josh Newton that started up a little business doing builds. He did great work, but got swamped, then tired of it, so he closed up shop. :(

I like the folder, was it part of the package? I'm interested in one of the solid type, like on the AK 103's.
Yep, it was part of the kit. The polymer stocks have never come in with parts kits so they're tougher to find. The only place i know of is a guy on gunbroker for like $160 i think, but he's in russia so it could take awhile to get here. Pretty good reputation though. Some local builders had some but they were like $300 or so and i dont even know if they have any left. You could ask over at ak47.net.

It would cost a decent amount for the stock + hardware, and to have a builder convert it since theres a lot of receiver work involved, but they're pretty cool.

As for this: "it seems like you'd get more of the 'looking through a tube' thing..."

I guess if you focused on the tube and the dot, it would look like this. I'm usually looking at the target and the dot is just out there on it, so I really dont notice the sight itself. But now that you brought it up, its probably all I'll see every time I look at it now! Thanks a lot there buddy! :D
Sorry. :o ;)

thereisnospoon
October 16, 2005, 10:00 AM
I just put an Ultimak on my SAR-1 and I put a cheap Tasco ProPoint 1X42 from Wal-Mart. This is a temporary setup as I am looking for a Bushnell Holosite, which looks to be a great setup. The 42mm tube does allow co-witnessing of my irons, which seems a plus to me, but I'll have to see with the Bushnell.

Definately go with the forward mounted optics, you'll not be dissapointed, as I have this setup on my Polytech M14/S (Springfield scout mount+Bushnell) and 2 bolt guns set up as Scout guns.

solive
October 17, 2005, 11:45 AM
These are good mounts but they replace the rear sights, but they hold strong
and do not lose zero.

http://scoutscopes.com/gallery.html

garrett1955
October 17, 2005, 03:20 PM
These are good mounts but they replace the rear sights, but they hold strong
and do not lose zero.

http://scoutscopes.com/gallery.html

holy crap!!!! thats perfect. i was dreaming about how i could make something work with the the mount thats there. and you sir are the man. thank you!!!!


i wonder how high the sight will sit??? too high?

Gordon
October 17, 2005, 06:55 PM
I just went thru a tactical carbine/vehicle assault course with my Ak(s) , I had an m-2 aimpoint/Ultimak mounted Hungarian AMD 63 as my primary gun and an East German AK47 with the Scout Mount and Leupold scout scope as my secondary weapon. I looked pretty weird with a bunch of HSLD LEOs also working the 2 Black and Whites BUT my AK was way cool. Plenty accurate (better than most CARs) 100% reliable BUT a little slower on the first shot because of the dagburn safety:cuss: that shredded my trigger finger upper edge after hundreds of evolutions. Both mounts are great with a slight nod to the more expensive Ultimak for strength and utility. The East German AK-47 with the scout mount and 2.5x Leupold is able to produce right at 2 moa at 100 meters with 88 vintage South African ball from prone. The Aimpoint Hunky does twice that BUT the dot is 4MOA. I feel confident with the AK red dot system and had many HSLD operators shaking their heads and wondering!:eek:

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