Trying ipsc after idpa


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RM
October 13, 2005, 11:52 PM
I have been shooting idpa for over a year and was thinking of trying ipsc, limited class. What are the fundamental differences in rules and in style in going from idpa to ipsc? (I know to expect stages with higher round counts and more targets.)
Thank you.

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HSMITH
October 14, 2005, 12:06 AM
For me the fundamental difference was going forward instead of backing up while shooting. Another big one was reloading when the time was right instead of when the stage was set up for a reload, even if it means dropping a mag with some ammo in it.

My local IDPA crowd structures the stages so tightly that the decision making process is eliminated, the USPSA gang leaves it all out there for you to figure out on most stages.

Good IDPA shooters have come out and done quite well at USPSA shoots. I don't think you will have any real hitches. As always safety is the main concern, and fun after that at USPSA shoots.

I enjoy USPSA much more than IDPA. If USPSA would come out with a 'carry' class I would forget IDPA ever existed.......

ted murphy
October 14, 2005, 12:11 AM
I have been shooting idpa for over a year and was thinking of trying ipsc. What are the fundamental differences in rules and in style in going from idpa to ipsc? (I know to expect stages with higher round counts and more targets.)
Thank you.

First thing you should do is go to the web page and skim over the rules. http://www.uspsa.org. There are things that can burn you. Example: Mulitple hits on a penalty target (up to 2 I think) count, and penalty targets are impenetrable. It's a long book but not a terrible read. Lots of the info is skimmable, but be sure to read the equipment and safety rules well.

The scoring system weighs speed over accuracy. It doesn't mean you can shoot all C's, (rough equivalent to the -1 zone) but you have to find a different balance.

Shooting boxes and foot faults are used instead of cover rules. Don't forget them. I've zeroed (got so many penalties my score was zero) several stages because I stepped out of a box and fired several shots. It's a simple system, but you have to be mindful that it is there. As long as you stand in or on the box (but not over) or fault line, you are good to go.

You can speed load, which means you can drop the magazine wherever you please whenever you want, regardless of how much ammo there is in it. If you've shot only IDPA for now, you may find this eerily fun to do. You can tac load/RWR/slide lock load if you want to though. Your call.

Depending on division there are less restrictons on equipment but the basic fundamentals are similar. Shoot quickly, accurately and safely.

ted murphy
October 14, 2005, 12:14 AM
I enjoy USPSA much more than IDPA. If USPSA would come out with a 'carry' class I would forget IDPA ever existed.......

They tried that a few years ago as an experiment IIRC. Late nineties i think.

Ted

Zak Smith
October 14, 2005, 02:20 AM
USPSA has the 180 degree safety rule.

The other big change is that most stages are "freestyle" -- you figure it out.

faustulus
October 14, 2005, 03:07 AM
As you pointed out the big difference is round count, well that and 75 foot head shots.
There is much less structure to the course, you have to think more how to approach a stage. A good idea is watch other shooters and see what they are doing, (what order they engage the targets, when they reload, etc)
and the last thing is there is a bit more movement than your typical IDPA stage.
As others have said. Be safe and you'll have a great time. It is addictive.
Now your real problem will be going back to IDPA and doing a fumble reload after getting used to the speed reload.

lmccrock
October 15, 2005, 09:18 AM
USPSA has Production Division, which is double-action and "Glock"-action guns with limited modifications and limitations on holsters. 10-round max in the gun, but that means carrying 4 (or more) mags. There is a new, provisional, optional single-stack division. USPSA rules are at http://www.uspsa.org/rules/.

USPSA Limited means load up your magazines to the max, and even put on extended basepads if it pleases you (as long as the length is less than 140mm). One of my Glock mags has a Dawson extension for 22 rounds of 9mm, so that means 40 rounds with 1 reload. Limited is usually high-cap, 1911-style .40s but there are some Glocks in there as well.

USPSA power factor scoring comes in as well. Hitting the A zone is the same 5 points regardless of power factor. Major PF gets 1 more point than minor PF for B, C, and D hits. So, accuracy counts.

Lee

196pc
October 16, 2005, 01:09 PM
USPSA has a higher round count and is more "freestyle" than IDPA. "Penalties" are different in how they are given (or earned) as well. I shot at a combo IDPA/USPSA fun match where two stages were IDPA and two were USPSA stages. Lots of fun and thinking (confusion) involved. It was also a good way to get both schools involved in each other's "game". At the end the IDPA shooters were gonna try USPSA matches rather than the other way around. And yes.....I shoot USPSA. I tried IDPA, but after years of USPSA matches it wasn't for me (Gotta rest one weekend in a month to keep the family happy). Both are fun. If USPSA wasn't around my area I would shoot IDPA though. Try both and have fun.

Gary G23
October 16, 2005, 01:47 PM
You'll have to learn to not use cover, shoot targets in the wrong order, and other gamer tricks that will get you killed in the real world.

Jim Watson
October 16, 2005, 02:20 PM
I prefer IDPA but do not consider it combat training.
As far as those match techniques that "will get you killed in the real world" I think a well rated competitive shooter would kill his first assailant so suddenly that any other(s) would flee... or freeze and die. Sustained gunfights against multiple armed, skilled, and determined assailants where "tactics" dominate seldom occur in self defense. Read The Armed Citizen in the American Rifleman.

Zak Smith
October 16, 2005, 02:31 PM
You'll have to learn to not use cover, shoot targets in the wrong order, and other gamer tricks that will get you killed in the real world.

After shooting some force on force (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=157436), I tend to think that using the same tactics in every situation is a bad idea. Dynamic situations with real assailents are not scripted (not by you anyway), and you have to figure it out for yourself in real-time. You want to "game reality"-- to manipulate time, space, and psychology (ie OODA) with maximum flexibility to your advantage.

Both sports will help someone practice/develop marksmanship, gunhandling, and speed. Neither really addresses mindset to any meaningful extent.

Jeeper
October 16, 2005, 08:19 PM
You'll have to learn to not use cover, shoot targets in the wrong order, and other gamer tricks that will get you killed in the real world.

IPSC will get you killed http://www.desertcj7.com/Smiles/bs.gif

jdkelly
October 16, 2005, 08:57 PM
A lot of shooters transition from IDPA to IPSC as their main game.
IPSC is faster, doesn't use a cover garment (known as the shoot me first vest), and has fewer limits on equipment.
There will be more rounds per stage and you will get to creatively solve the shooting problem. For the most part you will be limited as to what you can shoot at by stage design and your ability.

You'll most likely be shooting at longer distances and in more contorted stances after moving longer distances you would in IDPA. Your shooting will likely need to improve in these areas.

The USPSA ROs seem to be much better trained then the IDPA SOs (I went through IDPA SO training), so more of their ROs seem to be on the "same" page, USPSA seems to have fewer "judgement" calls involved.

Someone said something about USPSA getting you killed in real life.
What ever you do don't mistake either IDPA or USPSA/IPSC as self defense training. They are both just games, nothing more!


Respectfully,


jkelly

richardschennberg
October 16, 2005, 11:03 PM
Dont' do it ;-) Too addictive and too much fun!
Get ready for more accuracy, more speed, and an occasional extra point for more power (DVC).
Richard
Schennberg.com (http://www.schennberg.com)

faustulus
October 17, 2005, 01:46 AM
You'll have to learn to not use cover, shoot targets in the wrong order, and other gamer tricks that will get you killed in the real world.
:rolleyes:
RM,
This is Internet attitude, you will probably not see this at matches, so don't let it worry you.
Go out and have fun. Any day on the range is better than a day infront of the tube or computer.:)

DrKyle1
October 18, 2005, 05:20 PM
I think you should go for it! I love IPSC shooting I spend 2 weekends of the month shooting IDPA and 2 shooting IPSC. Personally I chose to go the production class in IPSC as I shoot SSP in IDPA and the same power factor for both - floor is 125pf... I shoot about 129 out of my G35 and it is softer than my girlfriends 9mm! For IPSC as some have pointed out... less "rules" than IDPA and much more run & gun - but don't be surprised to find one or two sweet spots where you can shoot most targets from! Reload on the run and it is bad very bad to have to reload from slide lock in IPSC. Don't worry about stowing the mag as in IDPA... never understood that on... not like I carry around loose bullets to reload the mags or am going to duck into the sporting goods store to get more and go back to the gunfight! Anyway that is my two cents.

Island Beretta
October 18, 2005, 05:44 PM
All good tools to have in your toolbox..prefer the freestyle and wider range of IPSC..

mattjoe
October 19, 2005, 12:32 AM
"You'll have to learn to not use cover, shoot targets in the wrong order, and other gamer tricks that will get you killed in the real world."

You can't even back up that ignorant statement can you?

If you can, please state name, location and classification of the ipsc/uspsa shooter killed in the real world while he or she was trying to defend himself or others from an attacker, while he or she was armed. Please also point us to a verifiable news article describing those people getting themselves killed.

If you can't provide that information, don't bother to spout such nonsense.

Cardboard doesn't shoot back, to think one game is better than the other for good training for a real life attack is just stupid.

sarhog
October 19, 2005, 11:04 AM
"You'll have to learn to not use cover, shoot targets in the wrong order, and other gamer tricks that will get you killed in the real world."

You can't even back up that ignorant statement can you?

If you can't provide that information, don't bother to spout such nonsense.

Cardboard doesn't shoot back, to think one game is better than the other for good training for a real life attack is just stupid.

Nothing like sticking to "The High Road".:rolleyes:

TexasRifleman
October 19, 2005, 11:31 AM
You'll have to learn to not use cover, shoot targets in the wrong order, and other gamer tricks that will get you killed in the real world.

Yes, and don't play golf or poker either, they have no self defense application at all. :rolleyes:

444
October 19, 2005, 12:26 PM
These threads, unfortunately, always turn into an us vs. them or my sport is better than your sport conflict.

At my local club, I think there is SOME effort made to try and make the IDPA matches at least somewhat realistic and to provide some training for "real life". A couple examples: at least one match a years is shot in the dark with flashlights. I was at a match were the senario was given and the first shooter said, "I wouldn't even draw my gun, I am sitting in my car with it running, so I would floor it and leave the situation". They guy was credited for a max score for resolving the situation without firing a shot.
Bottom line, IMO and in my experience, IDPA does make some attempt to provide citizens who carry concealed with some training for real life. Note that I said, SOME TRAINING". This doesn't mean that shooting IDPA is a complete course, but it does teach you gun handling with practical guns, concealment, and at least here flashlight.
IPSC makes no attempt at all to be "practical" The guns used by some competitors are designed strictly for this one application (IPSC) and would never be carried concealed. The goal of most IPSC matches is to have a high round count, afterall, shooting is why we are there to begin with. Sound defensive shooting tactics have no place in IPSC: it is purely a game with no illusions of anything else.
I have enjoyed both, but IPSC certainly wins out as being more fun. Anytime you shoot more, it is going to be more fun. Either one will improve your gun handling skills greatly.

444
October 19, 2005, 12:47 PM
Something that I considered to be interesting: I occasionally shoot a steel plate match at our club. Almost all the shooters at this match are IPSC shooters and race guns are allowed. If you choose to NOT shoot a race gun, you will be shooting against race guns head to head. FWIW I shoot a bone stock 1911. Anyway, it is a lot of fun to see how revolver shooters and the few guys with regular guns shoot compared to the race gun shooters. Bottom line, a lot of the race gun shooters spray and pray. They have magazines that hold like 30 rounds. They point the gun in the general direction of the target and start hosing. If you are pretty good with your 8 shot 1911, you can usually beat these guys: BUT you CAN'T miss. You have to make every shot count or you will lose. Obviously there are race gun shooters that are really good with them: they still have the same mentality and still often miss, but they end up firing far fewer rounds and always kick my butt.

faustulus
October 20, 2005, 03:17 AM
The goal of most IPSC matches is to have a high round count, afterall, shooting is why we are there to begin with.
actually the goal is to have fun, which I am pretty sure is the goal of all games.
Another goal would be to shoot smoothly and accuratly, now you may not believe it this can have real world applications as well.
Both are games, neither are particularlly good for training. Both will polish your skill sets and that is a good thing.

sigstroker
October 30, 2005, 05:20 AM
USPSA has Production Division, which is double-action and "Glock"-action guns with limited modifications and limitations on holsters. 10-round max in the gun, but that means carrying 4 (or more) mags. There is a new, provisional, optional single-stack division. USPSA rules are at http://www.uspsa.org/rules/.


Those rules don't say anything about 10 rounds max.

Oops, I see the U.S. version does. They should bag that, it's been over ayear since the sunset.

Morgan
October 30, 2005, 06:51 AM
Those rules don't say anything about 10 rounds max.

Oops, I see the U.S. version does. They should bag that, it's been over ayear since the sunset.

I disagree. The ten round max makes planning how you shoot a stage more challenging, as well as making virtually any gun potentially competetive, adding variety and options.

Chris Rhines
October 30, 2005, 07:53 AM
Also, there are still some poor souls living in California, New Jersey, etc, who might want to shoot USPSA.

- Chris

71Commander
October 31, 2005, 06:42 PM
I shoot USPSA in Limited 10 (1911 with 10 round mags). Gonna give the SS division a try come Jan 1st.

At first, IPSC is both physically and mentally exhausting. Lot of running, shooting and thinking, all at the same time.

MNgoldenbear
November 1, 2005, 12:48 AM
I don't know if I feel as strongly as mattjoe, but that's definitely a good point at the end. I haven't shot IDPA, but have done a lot of IPSC and some 3-Gun "tactical" scenario stuff based around IPSC/IDPA type rules. In the latter, people would often get bent out of shape about a stage not being "tactically sound". We basically took the same standpoint that "cardboard doesn't shoot back**". Until someone's shooting back, it's just a game. (If someone IS shooting back, try to survive and get the heck out of there!) Any of these games are good for your marksmanship, gun handling, and just plain fun if you don't get too wound up about it. If you're not going to enjoy it, why not just go to work and at least make some money? :rolleyes:

One of the funniest things I ever saw related to "tactical shooting" competition and how it is NOT TACTICAL SHOOTING:
Competitor is attempting a stage with an array of several steel "poppers" directly in front of him at minimal range. Shooter blasts through the stage, then pivots several times in a "ready" position to sweep over the scene, as they'd been taught at some tactical shooting school. The competitor then lowers and clears the firearm. RO says, "IF you are finished, unload, show clear." Most competitors recognize that emphasis means you've missed something big-time. He in fact had a full size pepper popper standing squarely in front of him about 10 yards away -- he had hit all the steel, but "rang" that one! An expletive was followed quickly by a reload and shot to finish. He was going through the motions, but definitely had missed out on the mindset.

Another interesting thing about this group (not officially IPSC or IDPA, just guys who liked to shoot). They were very much into how to transfer skills to "real life". The penalty for a "no-shoot" hit was to zero the stage. Idea being that if you get sloppy and hit bystanders, you're going to get a lot more than a 10 point (or "x" seconds, not sure about IDPA) penalty when the legal system gets done with you. They'd also do clinics on techniques and strategies after the match. We had a few guys who really knew their stuff and taught formal classes, but a lot of guys just enjoyed thinking through different possibilities -- not that they'd have the "right" answer, but that thinking of options ahead of time might give them an edge in a real situation. If nothing else, we'd figure out what DIDN'T work. Many stage scenarios were taken from published reports of real-life situations, others from members' personal experiences with use of force. It was just kind of neat (and humbling) to try something out and have it fail miserably due to competition thinking versus real-world problems. (e.g. thrusting your pistol out - a la normal competition stances - toward a threat target placed literally at contact distance -- you'd possibly lose the weapon, and at least have a big chance of having it pushed out of battery if it's an auto.) We also had knife utilization stages a couple of times a year, noting that most carried them but never practiced any fighting skills. We all pretty much discovered that we sucked with knives, and had better bring a pistol if we were ever invited to a knife fight!

Anyway, play whatever games you can, and have fun. Stay safe -- always come home with the same number of openings in your skin that you started the day with!

** This line was sort of like one out of an old Bruce Lee movie. A rival tosses a board into the air and shatters it with a fist or foot attempting to intimidate Bruce. He replies, "Boards don't hit back."

akanotken
November 3, 2005, 06:46 PM
[QUOTE=Jim Watson] [snip]I think a well rated competitive shooter would kill his first assailant so suddenly that any other(s) would flee... or freeze and die.[end of snip][QUOTE]

I think if I'm ever on the recieving end of the competitive shooter, I'll
1.) Hide
2.) let him shoot a bit
3.) then yell out ... "If you are finished, unload and show me clear".

Of course I'll not put the emphasis on "IF" :D :cool: :evil:

Byron Quick
November 4, 2005, 01:37 AM
I've never had the opportunity to shoot IPSC and only a few IDPA matches. But I've watched some top competitors from both sports shoot.

While you can't judge a person's mindset from their shooting skills; the bad guys facing either a good IPSC or a good IDPA shooter is going to experience shock and awe once the decision to engage is made.

I've seen a number of competitors from both games who are going to be hard pressed to take cover, reload, or use tactics unless there are more than four or five opponents. There's no need to take cover, reload, or use different tactics when you've just killed all your opponents.

IV Troop
November 17, 2005, 07:15 PM
Both are GAMES. Both are fun. I personally like IPSC better because I came there to shoot, so the more the better. The only reason I do not shoot IPSC anymore is because I got stationed in an area that does not have any clubs and I work weekends, otherwise I would.

This whole thing about "this or that will get you killed is amusing. Due to the nature of my work it is a rare week that goes by that I am not pointing guns at some bad guy. Today was no different. It is just buisness.

As far as I am concerned years of shooting IPSC has done the opposite. I became faster and more proficient with my work/carry gear because I shot with it constantly. I recognized where my ability boundaries were.

There have been many times where I have been legally justified in shooting but have not simply because I knew I could still take the guy. This has given a number of BG's one more chance to surrender or drop their weapon, which thankfully they did. If anything I would say IPSC has saved lives.

I am sure some "tactical hobbyists" will want to flame away:rolleyes: . The above has simply been my experience.

IV Troop
November 17, 2005, 07:16 PM
" I've seen a number of competitors from both games who are going to be hard pressed to take cover, reload, or use tactics unless there are more than four or five opponents. There's no need to take cover, reload, or use different tactics when you've just killed all your opponents."

well said.

Ankeny
November 18, 2005, 01:26 PM
You'll have to learn to not use cover, shoot targets in the wrong order, and other gamer tricks that will get you killed in the real world.

And of course we all know even the most inept pistolero could beat Robbie Leatham in a gunfight as long as they wear a cap with a raven perched on the bill. :D

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Shame on me.

oldtrooper
November 23, 2005, 04:51 PM
Either one or both are great for developing skill with a handgun. Learning to shoot fast and accurately is, I think, the most important element of self difense. Cover is always important and movement is equally important. I have been in law enforcement for 41 years and have seen the bear, more than once. In one instance we were in a road in front of a vehicle that was slowly backing down the road. The local sheriff had exchanged himslef for a woman and her three children as a hostage. The vehicle started to back into a drive and the shooter shot the sheriff in the side. We were about 50 feet away and now cover close at hand. The shooter was swinging the handgun around to shoot at us through the windshield and only quick reaction and accruate fire stopped him from pulling that trigger.

In another instance a young trooper stopped an escaped convict on an interstate. They wound up in a shoot out and both had excellent cover, automobiles, and exchanged several shots. The young trooper told me at debreifing, "boss I noticed he kept popping un in the same place to shoot at me so I got a good sight picture on that spot and when he popped up I squeezed the trigger" he got him between the lights.

Any shooting that incorporates speed, accuracy, judgement, reloading under pressure etc., will serve you well in the real world. The only thing better is force on force training with simunitions etc. The targets move and it hurts if you get hit. In either IDPA, USPSA you will learn how to get off an accruate shot fast without an AD.

I am classified in USPSA Class B in both Limited and Limited 10. Have shot IDPA but never shot the classification course. I have shot PPC, the only advantage here was learning what a correct sight picture produces. I have Distinguished Badges in NRA Action Pistol in both Open Class and Metallic Sights. The key to survival is to be totally familiar with your weapon to the point that the drawing, firing and reloading are so programmed in your brain that you can focus on the event as it occurs around you.

Shoot any type competetive shooting every time you can. None of it will get you killed, only brain fade, focusing on handling your weapon, or just plain bad luck will get you killed.

IV Troop
November 23, 2005, 07:58 PM
Great Post OLD TROOPER!

I did an executive protection assignment protecting your former Governor Ronnie Musgrove a few years back during a National Governors Conference. His full time EP folks were good guys and Easy to work with.

oldtrooper
November 23, 2005, 10:51 PM
I was the Lt. Col. chief of the uniformed division at that time. Jim Boxx was head of EP and indeed was a good guy. I retired two years into the next admisistration and have been chief of police in McComb since then.

jlh26oo
December 8, 2005, 01:47 AM
Reload on the run and it is bad very bad to have to reload from slide lock in IPSC. Why is this? Is there a penalty for doing so?

Also, someone mentioned shooting from more contorted stances. What does this mean? Smaller cover you have to crouch behind etc? Is there the "fifty percent" rule?

I have only shot IDPA. The only thing I don't like about it is that I can't fill 17 round mags beyond 10 rounds. I understand WHY this is, to force mag changes in small round count scenarios, and to level the playing field. I just wish there was a division where it was legal.

So are there divisions in IPSC where I can use 17 round mags? Even if I was up against super modified guns (though I'd prefer not to be), I'd just rather be used to reloading at 17 instead of 10. I'm not so much worried about there being a loss of realistic simulation or anything, or don't care that much about losing points because I have a 9mm. Score me how you want, I'd just rather use the gear as I carry it.

Also, is the C-TAC legal in ipsc?

Zak Smith
December 8, 2005, 01:54 AM
Why is this? Is there a penalty for doing so?
Because it takes longer to do a reload from slide lock. If you have to move (takes time) and reload (takes time) you can overlap that time to save stage time.

So are there divisions in IPSC where I can use 17 round mags? Even if I was up against super modified guns (though I'd prefer not to be), I'd just rather be used to reloading at 17 instead of 10. I'm not so much worried about there being a loss of realistic simulation or anything, or don't care that much about losing points because I have a 9mm. Score me how you want, I'd just rather use the gear as I carry it.

Also, is the C-TAC legal in ipsc?
In the US, we have USPSA, the US affiliate of IPSC (the int'l body).

In any case you, can use 17 round mags to capacity in any USPSA division besides "Production" and Limited-10, which leaves Limited and Open.

The holster is fine as long as it's safe.

jlh26oo
December 8, 2005, 04:11 AM
Yeah, ok. Slide lock reload requires an extra step.

So I've been reading the USPSA website, and according to their pdf rulebook, production class has no ammo capacity maximum, they just prohibit +2 baseplates, or any modifications. Also it appears as if there are no "power factor" point weighing, no major/minor in production. Am I reading this right?

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/Handgun_15th_2004.pdf

Sounds like I can use my 34 with 17 round mags so long as I take of my hi viz front sight.

jlh26oo
December 8, 2005, 04:24 AM
Ah, nevermind. I read "production division". It specifies 10 round max for "US Production Division".


That would have been perfect- no power factor, and 17 round mags legal.

jdkelly
December 8, 2005, 08:11 AM
Also, someone mentioned shooting from more contorted stances. What does this mean?---jlh2600

It means that in shooting USPSA, you are more likely to have to shoot through ports or around obstacles that by their placement force you to shoot in uncomfortable stances then you will in IDPA.

By this I mean that you are shooting in neither a kneeling position nor standing mostly erect. You will need to bend to get to the proper height and need to twist to shoot all the targets in the array.


Respectfully,

jdkelly

Zak Smith
December 8, 2005, 12:27 PM
With a Glock 19 or 34, you'd shoot Minor PF in Limited. If you shoot all A's Minor won't make a difference. Most people shoot high capacity 40's in Limited.

GTOShootr
December 8, 2005, 04:23 PM
..... so long as I take of my hi viz front sight.

You don't have to take off the front sight. Production allows for a change of sights. Hi Viz or other fiber optics are popular.

jlh26oo
December 9, 2005, 12:51 AM
Yeah that's why I said nevermind. I was reading "production"- stock sights, no mag cap maximum, no power factor, stock pistols. Would have been perfect. Unfortunately, the "US Production" is completely different.

I might just stick with idpa. I know "limited" is a division, but does it mean the same thing in uspsa, where you can't go back and make up misses? Like if it calls for x number of shots, you only take x number of shots?

mattjoe
December 9, 2005, 12:55 AM
Limited in USPSA means your gun has no electronic sights or compensator or ports in the barrel, and magazines are no longer than 140mm in length.
Which your gun would fit in.
Limited, as a division, doesn't define how many rounds you shoot, just what kind of gun is allowed in that division.
The scoring style you'd be referring to where you are only allowed to fire a set number of shots, and no more without penalty is known in USPSA as Virginia Count, and you rarely run into it outside of a classifier stage, or a major match.
Almost all stages are scored "Comstock" scoring, which is: go ahead and shoot as many rounds out there as you want. When you're done, stop.

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