CCW Customer Stops Robbery in KC, MO


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Henry Bowman
October 14, 2005, 10:18 AM
A customer who was carrying in a convenience store stops an armed robbery using his CCW. Link to KCTV news report with store video from two angles. They say that he also reached for his cuffs, but was wearing a different uniform. They do not say that he is a special LEO or such.
http://www.kctv5.com/global/video/popup/pop_player.asp?ClipID1=551171&h1=Caught%20on%20Tape%3A%20Customer%20Catches%20Crook&vt1=v&at1=News&d1=101266&LaunchPageAdTag=Homepage&activePane=info&playerVersion=1&rnd=2810932
There is a 15 second commercial at the beginning, but it's worth the wait.

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Chipperman
October 14, 2005, 10:37 AM
Nice. The BG could easily have shot him, though. Glad he didin't.

Alex45ACP
October 14, 2005, 10:59 AM
Is the guy a cop or just a wanna be?

Echo Tango
October 14, 2005, 11:08 AM
That weapon the BG is waving around looks supiciously like a Daisy Powerline693 CO2 BB gun, which would explain his sudden desire to give up.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=29935&stc=1&d=1129302135

Now granted a BB gun is a dangerous weapon of sorts, it does throw a .177 tiny round projectile at a screaming 400 ft/sec but I think true pistol is going to win everytime in that confrontation match up.

Sawdust
October 14, 2005, 11:19 AM
Awesome!

Sawdust

Zundfolge
October 14, 2005, 11:57 AM
That weapon the BG is waving around looks supiciously like a Daisy Powerline693 CO2 BB gun.

Which looks supiciously like a Smith & Wesson 5904.

http://www.opticstalk.com/photoserver/images/photos/1403.jpg

CentralTexas
October 14, 2005, 12:08 PM
"Is the guy a cop or just a wanna be?"

Bothersome comment bud. Is your point only cops have the training to do that? Or did you mean only a cop should be allowed to defend themselves?:confused:
CT

El Tejon
October 14, 2005, 12:15 PM
CT, I think he's commenting on the handcuffs. How many of us carry a pistol(s) AND handcuffs and do not have a badge?:confused:

(Not the handcuffs by our nightstands:D).

Ed
October 14, 2005, 12:16 PM
It only plays a little bit for me. What I did see it looked like the guy was watching him walk towards the store and as soon as he opened the door he drew on him. Situational Awareness.

SJG26
October 14, 2005, 12:19 PM
El Tejon wins----------it took only 14 hours to invoke the CCW Badge justification!!:neener:

Just kidding.............................

Byron Quick
October 14, 2005, 12:20 PM
Cop or wannabe, the man's cooler than I would be. If I had drawn in that situation, I would have been going for slide lock.

SJG26
October 14, 2005, 12:26 PM
that I too share. LEO is usually obligated (??) to order a perp to 'Freeze/stop/drop your weapon, etc." BEFORE they may open fire.

But, we non-LEO folk are motivated by "fear for our lives, etc" and have no responsibility to utter the freeze/stop statements.

The bad guys would be better off encountering LEO (and live) vs the CCW'ers here and be perforated......lol

Meaning - are we justified to simply shoot first (with a justified threat)------as Byron alludes? I agree by the way - just curious to the outlook of others here.................

MikeIsaj
October 14, 2005, 12:27 PM
Waaa, Waaa, Waaaaaaaaah... It won't load for me. Stupid computer:banghead: :banghead:

Zundfolge
October 14, 2005, 12:30 PM
Waaa, Waaa, Waaaaaaaaah... It won't load for me. Stupid computer:banghead: :banghead:
No doubt ... what is it with TV News sites that all seem to use the most worthless media streaming software out there ... doesn't work most of the time or requires that you be running IE or some such nonsense.

Why not just put a stupid direct link to the video file and let people download the stupid thing instead of streaming it :rolleyes:

Alex45ACP
October 14, 2005, 12:38 PM
Bothersome comment bud. Is your point only cops have the training to do that? Or did you mean only a cop should be allowed to defend themselves?

None of the above.

However, if he's not a cop, why is he carrying handcuffs?

They also said in the video that there was a recent rash of armed robberies of convenience stores in the area and this guy was going around to different stores asking if there was "anything he could do".

Almost sounds like he was looking for trouble. Exactly the type of behavior that makes people who CCW look bad.

KaceCoyote
October 14, 2005, 01:02 PM
Not a shot was fired. Irreguardless of if this guy was proactive or not. This showes sheeple not everyone with a pistol strapped to their hip is itchin for an excuse to blow somone away.

This is a positive example.

Alex45ACP
October 14, 2005, 01:04 PM
Right.

If this guy was just some wannabe out looking for trouble, we got lucky this time. If something bad had happened, it would have been more ammo for the gun grabbers.

Zundfolge
October 14, 2005, 01:05 PM
anyone have a direct link to the video ... I'm unable to get it to work.

EDIT
Nevermind ... I got it to run in *ick* Internet Explorer *bleh*

orangeninja
October 14, 2005, 01:30 PM
that I too share. LEO is usually obligated (??) to order a perp to 'Freeze/stop/drop your weapon, etc." BEFORE they may open fire.

But, we non-LEO folk are motivated by "fear for our lives, etc" and have no responsibility to utter the freeze/stop statements.

The bad guys would be better off encountering LEO (and live) vs the CCW'ers here and be perforated......lol

Meaning - are we justified to simply shoot first (with a justified threat)------as Byron alludes? I agree by the way - just curious to the outlook of others here.................


Actually that's wrong. The justification to fire for a law enforcement officer and a civilian are exactly the same. If screaming "drop your weapon" would do more damage or cause more danger to the officer and public than just shooting would, the officer will simply shoot. Case in point, man with a gun walks in and pops the clerk, an officer is not obligated to say a word. In this case the officer could simply state or believe his live is in imminent danger and pop the guy same as anyone else. The only difference between the burden of proof in a leo involved shooting and a civilian is that the leo will have his "training" and "experience" considered when making a choice to fire.

So don't go out thinking there is a difference between off duty cop shootings and your own. Everything is the same. If you shoot the guy and your defense is “hey I’m not a cop” your gonna be writing letters to your kids on birthdays.

In this situation I think this guy reacted well, he obviously held the initiative, the only thing I would have recommended is that he side step out of the line of sight...but being that it was such a small store he may not have had the luxury and I'll bet had he jumped the counter to "take cover" (not that a plywood counter would stop crap) he would have lost the initiative and probably not had time to draw his weapon.

I think it's a good pinch.

Had the bad guy come in shooting, it would have been bloody and ugly anyways....the bad guy would most likely have lost as he was holding the gun left handed (he may be left handed) way over his head and at a downward angle as if to "display". Had he fired, controlling recoil and shot placement would have been nonexistent. As for our local hero...good shooting stance.

Henry Bowman
October 14, 2005, 02:43 PM
They also said in the video that there was a recent rash of armed robberies of convenience stores in the area and this guy was going around to different stores asking if there was "anything he could do".
It said that he was a fellow business owner in the neighborhood. His truck door shows maybe a tire store.

wrangler5
October 14, 2005, 02:47 PM
The word on the Missouri Carry forum is that the "customer" was an off duty cop - this reported thru a detective friend of the individual who posted the info, who lives in the town where it happened.

I don't think it changes the analysis of the value of concealed carry, though - a gun available to a good guy stopped a bad guy from ripping off the store or worse. Unless you are prepared simply to hope that a cop is there when you need one (as happened to be the case here) and are willing to let the bad guys do what they want if a cop isn't handy, you have to recognize the value of concealed carry by as many good guys as are willing and able. Of course, most antis are perfectly prepared to let bad things happen to others as long as they can delude themselves that they're helping by "getting guns off the streets.".

Double Naught Spy
October 14, 2005, 03:55 PM
CT, I think he's commenting on the handcuffs. How many of us carry a pistol(s) AND handcuffs and do not have a badge?:confused:

(Not the handcuffs by our nightstands:D).

So do you have the fuzzy purple, blue or pink handcuffs? Generally speaking, they aren't very secure. You definitely don't want them for CCW duty at all, not unless it is part of the game for your captive to escape.
----------------

So the CCW customer wasn't your job blow good guy citizen but a trained professional who arrests people for a living? Sure that changes things. It is just the value that is shown to be effective, but the value of the criminal not knowing that the other folks in the store might be cops. A citizen with a gun may or may not take action, but you except that cops will take action.

El Tejon
October 14, 2005, 05:00 PM
00, leopard skin, but of course!:D :evil:

dakotasin
October 14, 2005, 05:02 PM
...wasn't your job blow good...



lol! massive freudian slip, eh??!?!?! :what: :D

thanks, 00... i got a chuckle, anyway.

MikeIsaj
October 14, 2005, 07:50 PM
However, if he's not a cop, why is he carrying handcuffs?Is it illegal? May or may not be, depends on where you are. Does he need your permission? That's an easy one, NO!

Why is it some people just cannot say good guy won, bad guy lost and went to jail, no one got hurt, it's a beautiful day!

MachIVshooter
October 14, 2005, 09:19 PM
Irreguardless of if this guy was proactive or not. This showes sheeple not everyone with a pistol strapped to their hip is itchin for an excuse to blow somone away.

This is a positive example.

In this instance, there is a fine line between pro-active and vigilantism. If his gun had been discharged it would be a very different story. The fact that he had gone around asking what he could do to help would virtually negate a self-defense claim, citing the fact that he chose to be there and attempt to stop the robbers. Deliberatlely putting yourself in harms way by being in a position to confront a criminal makes self defense claims a tough sale.

And not to start a grammar war, but "irregardless" isn't a word (though it seems these days it has become a common double-negative bastardization).

Standing Wolf
October 14, 2005, 09:28 PM
Uh-oh. Somebody's parole officer is going to be disappointed.

Byron Quick
October 14, 2005, 09:29 PM
Bull. If I go around asking my neighbors who have been victims of crimes if I can do anything to help. it's a very far reach to say that means I'm looking for trouble and can't claim self defense if an armed criminal threatens my life on the premises.

Describing this man's action as being close to vigilantism is burying into the antis' claim that all self defense is vigilantism.

Vigilantism is not stopping a violent crime in progress. Look up the definition.

Asking if I can help people does not equate to a proclamation that I will be swooping down on evildoers in the neighborhood as soon as I don my tights and cape.

84B20
October 14, 2005, 10:40 PM
that I too share. LEO is usually obligated (??) to order a perp to 'Freeze/stop/drop your weapon, etc." BEFORE they may open fire.

But, we non-LEO folk are motivated by "fear for our lives, etc" and have no responsibility to utter the freeze/stop statements.

The bad guys would be better off encountering LEO (and live) vs the CCW'ers here and be perforated......lol

Meaning - are we justified to simply shoot first (with a justified threat)------as Byron alludes? I agree by the way - just curious to the outlook of others here.................

You are exactly right. That's just the way I learned it in the CCW course I attended here in New Mexico. We don't apprehend all we can do is stop someone from harming ourselves or others.

Alex45ACP
October 14, 2005, 10:51 PM
Is it illegal? May or may not be, depends on where you are. Does he need your permission? That's an easy one, NO!

Of course not. Wannabe cops have the right to carry whatever they want.

And I have the right to belittle them endlessly :D

MachIVshooter
October 15, 2005, 12:37 AM
Vigilantism is not stopping a violent crime in progress. Look up the definition.



It is if you go lurking in a target area, waiting for it to happen.

Re-read my post.

And getting involved in an armed robbery to which you are merely a bystander and using a weapon to subdue the robber certainly does border on vigilantism, and wasn't in this case by a hairs breadth. He certainly meets the Websters definition of vigilante, other than not being a member of an organized comittee. So, if he had used force it would have been vigilantism.

Now, I never said I had a problem with this type of behavior. I applaud it. But that does not make it a good idea. It does not reflect well on permit holders in general when one of them tries to play cop. Would I be prone to similar action in similar circumstances? Quite possibly yes. And I could end up paying a hefty price for it.

I believe vigilantism could be a highly effective method to curtail crime, but as of right now it is not a legal one. And it generally recieves negative press. Wouldn't it suck to have our CCW's taken away because a few people lived up to their civic responsibility?

To quote "SWAT", sometimes doin' the right thing ain't doin' the right thing.

I'll just leave it at that.

The Real Hawkeye
October 15, 2005, 10:22 AM
I sure wish I could see it. I keep clicking on the customer stops robber and they keep playing the one about the McDonnell's burglary. Very frustrating.

Oldtimer
October 15, 2005, 11:57 AM
That page wouldn't load for me, but I got the general "gist" of it from reading the other responses.

I was a LEO for 31 years, and give thanks for all of the tactical training I received. While off-duty, I successfully thwarted two "take-over" robberies in a local convenience store. One of them COULD have turned sideways on me, for there were 4 suspects involved, and one of them chose to merely "shoplift" some items before they carried out their plan. They had a stolen car in the parking lot, which verified that they were up to no good....but I didn't know that until after I took action with the "shoplifter". Fortunately, the local police showed up at the right time, as I was "herding" the suspects toward the exit door. I didn't try to arrest the "shoplifter", but while politely asking him to leave the store (after removing the items he had concealed in his waistband), the other 3 suspects fell into a "domino" position....as I pushed the "shoplifter" toward the door. The local police rushed in at JUST the right time, recognized me as an off-duty officer, and "coded" to me that the vehicle that the suspects had arrived in was a stolen vehicle.
WHEW!

Several years ago, an off-duty RESERVE Deputy Sheriff walked into a "robbery-in-progess" at a liquor store. The aftermath turned out BAD, for the reserve deputy had his 4 year old son with him, and during the shoot-out, the toddler AND the bad guy were killed. While it might be easy to say that the reserve deputy SHOULD have withdrawn with his young son before taking action, I won't play "monday moring quarterback". Tragic!

For you CCW/CHL permitees....do NOT think that you "know it all" in the way of tactics, or think that your .45 ACP carry gun might be "sufficient" firepower! Are there MULTIPLE suspects? Is there a "lay-off" man or "look-out"? You're ALONE, and even though it might LOOK like a clear-cut situation, you STILL may have to contend with the REAL police who respond to the incident! Hey, maybe you were a "hero", but the police DON'T know you, personally, and you might be the ONLY "man with a gun" when they pull up!

Judgement and GOOD "common sense" is a necessity, and it will probably have to be kicked in immediately! It might be tough for you to drop your "prized" CCW handgun to the ground, for fear of slightly damaging it, but....do NOT hesitate if you hear the words "Drop it!"

Byron Quick
October 15, 2005, 02:45 PM
It is if you go lurking in a target area, waiting for it to happen.



So visiting fellow business owners in the locale where your own business is located is lurking in a target area.

I walk regularly in areas of town where others have been robbed. Tell me, am I 'lurking' in the 'target area.'? Should I be concerned of being accused of vigilantism if I defend myself or another in the same area where a crime has occurred in the recent past? If I see one of the victims or one of the likely future victims, I'll probably asked if there is anything I can do to help. It's known as being a good neighbor in these parts. Guess we're just unsophisticated when it comes to vigilantism. Darn, I'm a vigilante and didn't know it.:rolleyes:

Bull, I said before and bull I say again.

You actually maintain that carrying in a area where a crime has been committed could be tantamount to vigilantism if you defend yourself with your weapon? I'm curious. Where do you carry? Crimes have been committed at some time in most areas. Maybe parts of Antartica that have never been visited by human beings might be safe for self defense under your apparent standards.

The Real Hawkeye
October 15, 2005, 03:01 PM
You STILL may have to contend with the REAL police who respond to the incident!Oldtimer, this statement reveals more about you than your probably know. One major thing it reveals is that you view the police to be the only legitimate folks who carry guns and stop crimes. If you are a non-policeman and carry a gun, and use it to stop a crime, you are, by implication, a member of the fake police, according to you. In point of fact, more crimes are actually stopped by regular folks with their own guns each year than by cops, so maybe it's cops who ought to stand aside and let regular folks get on with the important business of reducing the problem of crime in our society, instead of attempting to corner the market on the use of firearms to thwart the bad guys by threatening to shoot us if we dare to assist someone who is being robbed. What arrogance!

MikeIsaj
October 15, 2005, 04:47 PM
One major thing it reveals is that you view the police to be the only legitimate folks who carry guns and stop crimes.:confused: Huh?

Hawkeye, that response reveals more about you than YOU realize. Apparently you are anti-cop and have a real chip on your shoulder. Or maybe we should not play psycho-analyst and just take people at their word here.

OldTimer made some good points. The fact is when the LEO arrive on scene of an armed robbery, you are one of the people they will see holding a gun. That's not a judgment, just a simple fact. Tunnel vision is the norm when confronting someone with a gun. Training makes you keep the big picture in your view. The million dollar question is, "is he alone?" Now, the BG in the car will probably leave when he sees his partner at gunpoint, but that's not guaranteed. Problem is, it's hard to predict behavior of anti-social people.

Unfortunatl I didn't see the video and will not fault anyone for taking action. There's not enough of that in our word today. In a general sense, we need to remember that as long as it's just property they are taking, it's better to be a good witness. Only when there is a threat to life is it appropriate to draw. It's more important to be a good witness than a dead hero.

MachIVshooter
October 15, 2005, 05:47 PM
So visiting fellow business owners in the locale where your own business is located is lurking in a target area.

I walk regularly in areas of town where others have been robbed. Tell me, am I 'lurking' in the 'target area.'? Should I be concerned of being accused of vigilantism if I defend myself or another in the same area where a crime has occurred in the recent past? If I see one of the victims or one of the likely future victims, I'll probably asked if there is anything I can do to help. It's known as being a good neighbor in these parts. Guess we're just unsophisticated when it comes to vigilantism. Darn, I'm a vigilante and didn't know it.:rolleyes:

Bull, I said before and bull I say again.

You actually maintain that carrying in a area where a crime has been committed could be tantamount to vigilantism if you defend yourself with your weapon? I'm curious. Where do you carry? Crimes have been committed at some time in most areas. Maybe parts of Antartica that have never been visited by human beings might be safe for self defense under your apparent standards.

Not my standards. And please read my entire post before you critique parts of it. Taking statements out of context and contorting the meaning is a media tactic, and not becoming of a thinking THR poster.

You know damn well how the headlines would have read if he had shot the robber, rather than arresting him:

"Gunfight breaks out in X convienience store: one man dead, one in custody"

I said before, and I'll say again;

I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH WHAT HE DID.

But this instance had the best possible outcome, and it could have ended much worse. I am not even going to speculate on the possible scenarios that could have left innocent people wounded or dead if the robber had felt cornered and began shooting.

We don't know all the details, so it is difficult to assert that his acts where either rightous or wreckless; only he was in a position to make that judgement call. But I'll ask you this: If you are in a similar situation (robbery in progress, you are not the victim) what would you do? You had better try to assess the situation and establish the threat level, and make a good educated guess at whether the perpetrator will surrender or fight before you take any action. Because if no shots were fired before you drew on him, and people ended up injured or dead because you escalated the situation, you had better be prepared to defend yourself in both criminal and civil court. And you will no doubt be guilty in the court of public opinion. Is it worth being drug through the mud, going to jail and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to prevent a robbery that was not even committed against you? Not to mention the guilt you'd feel if someone was injured or worse because of what you did.

Armed robberies tend to result in deaths when the situation is escalated by the victim, police or a bystander. No amount of money is worth loss of innocent life. It is usually best to let things run their course and remember details that will help police as best you can. If you feel so compelled, engage the criminal in a place where it is just the two of you and no one else is at risk.

IMO, the only justifiable reason to take action in said situation is if you have no doubt that someone will end up seriously injured or dead if you do not do something.

KaceCoyote
October 15, 2005, 06:30 PM
In this instance, there is a fine line between pro-active and vigilantism. If his gun had been discharged it would be a very different story. The fact that he had gone around asking what he could do to help would virtually negate a self-defense claim, citing the fact that he chose to be there and attempt to stop the robbers. Deliberatlely putting yourself in harms way by being in a position to confront a criminal makes self defense claims a tough sale.

And not to start a grammar war, but "irregardless" isn't a word (though it seems these days it has become a common double-negative bastardization).



IRREGARDLESS...I know a few mechanics who wear navy pants and have a dark blue shirt. My local mechanic has this dresscode, now if infact he did own a tire shop. I find it plausable that he was attempting to help his neighbors out, and due to his uniform folks assume he's some sort've wanna-be cop.

Burt Blade
October 15, 2005, 08:54 PM
How about we all take a time out and remember the important part?

Good Guys 1
Bad Guys 0

Interesting thing though, if you wind up ordering some miscreant to go prone and wait for the constables, would you ever need to restrain the thug more directly?

Closing to contact distance for anyone not needing to make a "professional" arrest seems like a major tactical boo-boo. However, what if you catch Burglar #1, but need to verify that his buddies are not lurking elsewhere in your dwelling?

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