If I get pulled over, Im probably going to jail


PDA






DontBurnMyFlag
October 14, 2005, 03:55 PM
Ok, So Mauser88 started a thread about getting pulled over and detained in NJ if you have a gun in your car. My problem is very similar.

I have a yugo SKS which I take to the range often. It is often confused with an assault weapon in NJ, since it has a grenade launcher and bayonet, however it has a non-detachable mag, and therefore legal in NJ. Another problem, is that I drive a Volvo Stationwagon, I do not have a trunk, I have a hatch. So when I transport my rifle, is it considered being in the back seat of my car?

Also, My rifle case is a plastic bushmaster case that does not lock. It snaps shut, but there are no places for a lock and it doesnt have internal combination locks. Can this get me in trouble as well???

What I intend to have happen, if I ever get pulled over on my way to the range is this: I get arrested for having an assault weapon in an unlocked case in the backseat of my car!!!!

Is this what is to be expected? What about gun owners who have a pick-up truck, how do they transport their guns in NJ???

Make the gun laws clearer, better and more efficient.....by eliminating them!!! :cuss:

Its what the govt does best, takes something simple...and complicates it!!!

If you enjoyed reading about "If I get pulled over, Im probably going to jail" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
spacemanspiff
October 14, 2005, 03:58 PM
or you can splurge on a $30 hard case for your rifles that do lock.

$30?
or risk getting arrested because the law is poorly written and its enforcers may not understand or comprehend the laws intentions?

Lupinus
October 14, 2005, 03:59 PM
Also, My rifle case is a plastic bushmaster case that does not lock. It snaps shut, but there are no places for a lock and it doesnt have internal combination locks. Can this get me in trouble as well???
I assume your case has a handle for carrying? Find a lock with a large enough hoop (or whatever the technicle term is) to fit arounf the carry handle and there you go, it is locked. If you can't find a lock with ab ig enough loop try maybe drilling a hole in the plastic. Or if all else fail's, get a short length of chain and wrap it around the handle, and lock the chain link.

EDITED ADD ON- Also, get a small lock box and keep the ammo up front with you in the lock box with the now locked case all the way as far possible in the back.

geekWithA.45
October 14, 2005, 04:00 PM
NJ statutes require the armament to be unloaded, enclosed and secured. Boxes with locks are best, but the statute even mentions "securely tied packages" so presumably string would suffice.

It also seems to be accepted that when a traditional trunk isn't available, "farthest from the driver" is the way to go.


Finally, don't sweat it too much, as long as you're going directly to or from a range. I used to goto the range with a jersey legal AR er, XM in the trunk pretty regularly, and was fully prepared to keep my trap shut if pulled over.

Stealth is you friend in NJ.

DontBurnMyFlag
October 14, 2005, 04:01 PM
well, i have been attaching a cable gun lock to the carry handle, but I still assumed I would get in trouble because it wasnt manufactured that way. Im sure they would find something to press charges about.

Working Man
October 14, 2005, 04:02 PM
Is this what is to be expected? What about gun owners who have a pick-up truck, how do they transport their guns in NJ???



They move to Texas. :neener:

Lupinus
October 14, 2005, 04:03 PM
That would work equally well. Built in or not, the case is still locked and you have no reasonable to get at the weapon and load it while driving, or getting it loading it and firing before a cop has a chance to choot you. Certianly not anymore so then if the case has built in lock's.

They may bust your chops but you at least have a strong leg to stand on.

RavenVT100
October 14, 2005, 04:07 PM
Ask yourself this: If you commit a traffic infraction, what probable cause exists to search your car?

Don't leave gun-related stuff laying around in the car. Have the car clean. If the officer asks permission to search your car, don't give it. If he didn't have to ask permission for a search, he wouldn't; you'd simply be ordered to step out of the car and the search would be carried out anyway.

Finally, it might pay to have a copy of the statute and guidelines from the AG in the case with the guns. That's been suggested to me by a few people who are experienced with doing traffic stops and searching for weapons.

DontBurnMyFlag
October 14, 2005, 04:07 PM
yea i never store ammo in the case and it is always in my trunk hatch thingy.

The Nj statute doesnt say anything about a locked case, just a secured one.

I think I am worrying too much. I always have my FID on me, unloaded firearm as far from me as possible, and I usually buy ammo at the range.

My next preparation is moving to PA. Land of high caps and AK-47s for $200!!

Thanks for the suggestions and back up guys.


Raven, good idea. I will print out the statutes and hi-lite anything I might find useful. Maybe if I print out some names of firearms lawyers and have those papers thrown in the back too, it might make em back off. lol

Lupinus
October 14, 2005, 04:17 PM
Wait till you try and buy a car in PA lol

I lived in PA for roughly three year's. And getting ANYTHING done in that state is a pain in the ass. And every little thing need's to be noterized.

And try selling or buying a car in PA from someone else and not a dealer.

And do not expect to be able to go to the DMV to register your vehicle and do title transfer's.

Nope.

You have to go to a title and tag place which is privatly owned and pay their private fee of like 50 dollar's (was the going rate in the area I lived) ontop of the state's fee's and tax's and such.

And if you go to the pocono's, you will interact with just as many if not more idiot's as in jersey. Damn near everyone in the pocono's or surounding area is from jersey or ny.

It isn't worth it. Move south :evil:

DontBurnMyFlag
October 14, 2005, 04:28 PM
what about north, like maine, vermont or NH, im not a fan of heat. Virginia is about as south as I will go. :neener:

Zundfolge
October 14, 2005, 04:51 PM
It isn't worth it. Move south :evil:

Theres no reason to live east of the Mississippi. :neener:

Kurush
October 14, 2005, 04:51 PM
I thought we were talking about guns not cars. PA has very liberal gun laws, our only bad laws are: no cash & carry, no guns (or slingshots) in state parks, and FFLs are required by law to give you a budweiser ad when they sell you a gun. I kid you not. Our CCW law is very liberal, no classes fingerprints etc, just $19 and a background check. There are some clusters of NY/NJ style vermin in the far east of the state, but we have statewide preemption so just ignore them and they'll have no choice but to ignore you.

cropcirclewalker
October 14, 2005, 04:53 PM
Go to your local sheriff's office. Ask for 5 or 6 of those cute little "Operation Child Safe" locks. They have a long, flexible, plastic coated bicycle cable like thingy. Hook one through the handle and daisy chain enough of them together so that they make it alla way around your case and not allow enough space to open it. :D

PS. Yes, they make great bicycle locks.

Lupinus
October 14, 2005, 05:00 PM
I know it's not about car's. And I know it's mostly the east of the state that has been invaded

But....PA....Nice state and all but I could do without living there agian.

Course, in PA it's a pain to transfer a car. And in FL very few people should be allowed car's with the way they drive.

scout26
October 14, 2005, 05:59 PM
PS. Yes, they make great bicycle locks.

My 11yo daughter uses the one that came with Mossberg shotgun on her bike at school.

Sad thing is, here the the western 'burbs of King Richie's Land of Bribes, Kickbacks and Corruption (aka Chicago), it hasn't raised any eyebrows, because none of the teachers know what a Mossberg is.

The free ones from Operation "Childsafe" also work well on gates/fences.

DBMF,

I get the impression that you want to be the test case ???

Ryder
October 14, 2005, 07:52 PM
If you commit a traffic infraction, what probable cause exists to search your car?

Don't leave gun-related stuff laying around in the car. Have the car clean. If the officer asks permission to search your car, don't give it.

I did this today. Unfortunately my car wasn't "clean" and I decided it was better to open the tin of breath mints rather than give him a reason to riip my car to pieces after having already denied him permission.

Amazing what they consider probable cause. Thank goodness I didn't have a coffee can on me! :p

As to pickup trucks, don't know about NJ but around we just leave them in the open bed if there is no lock. Inaccessability is the objective. Theft of my property by a criminal isn't much of a consideration in relation to protection from the law.

BadAsh87
October 14, 2005, 08:21 PM
I know how you feel man.. I'm a fellow new jersyian. Just turned 18 so I went to to the police station to obtain papers for a FID card. The lady behind the counter gave me so much attitude. "You're aware you cant buy a handgun, ya know that?!" "You know it'll take like 6 MONTHS!?". Like she was trying to discourage me. I simply smiled and said, "I'm fully aware ma'm." Anyways, not only do i have to fill out mental health forms(which need to be signed by a doctor) but i also got to pay the station 65 bucks, and go for fingerprints next week. To hell with new jersey!

Hawkmoon
October 14, 2005, 08:47 PM
or you can splurge on a $30 hard case for your rifles that do lock.
I got one for $10 at the range/gunshop where I shoot. I guess it was such a low-end case nobody wanted it and the shop owner was tired of looking at it. It's just blow-molded plastic, and the lock is a cheap Wal-Mart padlock rather than a fancy built-in locking latch but, hey ... the law says "locked," it doesn't say "expensive."

GregGry
October 14, 2005, 08:53 PM
FFLs are required by law to give you a budweiser ad when they sell you a gun. As in beer? Why? that makes no sense, your joking right!?!?

MikeIsaj
October 14, 2005, 08:59 PM
Here's a solution, move to Pennslvania. One month later with your new carry permit, strap your handgun on your hip, put your unloaded assault weapon, detachable mag removed, in the backseat, and have a nice day. On the way to the range, stop at the gun shop and buy a new handgun on impulse.

Why does anyone still live in that state?

RavenVT100
October 14, 2005, 09:17 PM
Anyways, not only do i have to fill out mental health forms(which need to be signed by a doctor) but i also got to pay the station 65 bucks, and go for fingerprints next week. To hell with new jersey!

You should know that it's illegal them to require you to violate doctor-patient privilege unless you've made an identifiable threat against yourself or someone else, or if it is material to a criminal investigation. All they're allowed to do is check if you've been involuntarily committed to a facility or placed in a psychiatric hold (again, involuntarily).

Basically, being forced to disclose a private conversation with a physician is the equivalent of being forced to disclose a private conversation with your attorney. i.e., it's illegal.

Like I said, next time you hear a representative of the Democratic party claiming to care about a person's civil liberties, think about this for a second and see if it parses.

idakfan
October 14, 2005, 09:17 PM
Conceal it in your car with a bunch of blankets and such.

What's the big deal? Been pulled over many times myself and never asked if I had a gun in my car.

Then again I don't live in NJ... Then again if I did mabye I misheard the question and while acting completely normal said "No."

Since when did it become a police officers business if you have a gun in your vehicle or not? That's absolutely IRRELEVANT. Write ticket, drive away, done.

CDignition
October 14, 2005, 09:55 PM
"Papers Please!" lol..damn Nazi state...

it is so stupid these laws..if someone has it in them to shoot a cop, than some dopey law about not having ammo near the gun isnt going to do anything...he is gonna murder someone, so why would he care if he breaks that stupid little law...Left Socialist thinking at its finest...

I grew up in New Jerksey, and will never go near that state again....In florida I can cary a loaded AR in my car with me, as long as it is concelealed...:D:D

VARifleman
October 14, 2005, 10:04 PM
As in beer? Why? that makes no sense, your joking right!?!?
He said ad, as in Advertisement.

Sistema1927
October 14, 2005, 10:21 PM
Wasn't New Jersey a free state once?

AZRickD
October 15, 2005, 12:03 AM
Here's a scenario...

You have the rifle in a locked case waaaay in the back of the station wagon or hatchback and even under some blankets (just like THR-ers here suggested).

You run into the back of a car or a car runs into the back of you and you run into another car or a light pole.

Not only does the accident cause the rifle case to become uncovered, but it hurls itself into the passenger seat and pops the lock. Ask me how I conjured this up. ;)

Are you in violation of NJ law? Have any reasonable guarantees you were legal prior to the accident in a vehicle that doesn't have a trunk?

Rick

meef
October 15, 2005, 01:25 AM
Ask yourself this: If you commit a traffic infraction, what probable cause exists to search your car?

Heh heh heh.... how about the mere fact that they've got you pulled over and you're at their mercy?

You think they really, truly require "probable cause"?

Naive.

It's a good thing that any LEO who doesn't like your attitude or was merely on a fishing expedition wouldn't fabricate or exaggerate any of the details when it came time to explain in court why your vehicle was searched.

I feel better now.

Kurush
October 15, 2005, 02:09 AM
As in beer? Why? that makes no sense, your joking right!?!?Yes, and no, in that order. It is allegedly a handgun safety pamphlet, that happens to have budweiser logos all over it :rolleyes: I'll see if I can dig one up.

EDIT:here ya go.
http://www.nssf.org/images/sportsmansGde.jpg

WT
October 15, 2005, 11:39 AM
Regarding a firearm in a Volvo stationwagon. From the NJSP website:

"The firearm should not be directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm and ammunition must be in a LOCKED container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console."

Highland Ranger
October 15, 2005, 11:52 AM
Unloaded/Separate containers as well. I believe.

I read somewhere that for police asking to search the car conversation should go this way:

LEO: "Do you have any firearms in the car" or "May I search your car"

YOU: "Why do you ask" or "Why do you want to search it"?

LEO - bla blah blah

YOU - DENY his request to search

Doing it in this manner helps establish whther the LEO had probable cause in making his request and whether whatever he finds would be admissable.

Best to be traveling with firearms legally

And remember there are lots of other gotchas in PRNJ: hollow point BULLETS (not cartridges, just the bullets) are ILLEGAL in NJ. So if you have one rolling around your trunk, I believe it's a felony.

For the other prisoners of the PRNJ and for the details regarding my comments above - I strongly suggest getting Evan Nappen's NJ gun law book: http://www.evannappen.com/nappenii/

The real question, if Forrester gets in, will we get concealed carry?

Highland Ranger
October 15, 2005, 11:53 AM
Oooops - book is out of print.

If anyone needs anything looked up, PM me or post and I'll see what the book says.

Maybe he's updating it as things change here frequently.

MikeIsaj
October 15, 2005, 05:24 PM
"May I search your car"I always love this question when I hear it on Cops. Stupid bad guy always says "sure."

If they have probable cause they don't need to ask.

If they are asking, they probably don't have probable cause and are fishing.

Say "No" or, "let me call my lawyer and get his advice first." Then ask if you are free to leave.

In the United States of America you do not need to prove your innocence. I don't know what the rules in New Jersey are.

swampsniper
October 15, 2005, 05:58 PM
I just keep a bag in the back seat labeled "DANGER, VENOMOUS REPTILES".
No one has ever asked to look in it yet!:D

DontBurnMyFlag
October 17, 2005, 11:07 AM
in response to highland ranger, hollow point bullets are only illegal in NJ if you are carrying them in a concealed handgun. In the unlikely chance you ever get a conceal carry permit. I have a few rounds of hollow point 7.62x39, they were cheap and I use em for target practice.

Also, thanks for all the good info for keeping me outta trouble. I think Ill cough up a few extra bucks, get a locking case and bury it in blankets etc in the back of my car.

There is little I can do to make me feel better about NJ laws...but I might just drive by Trenton mooning it later tonite :evil:

RavenVT100
October 17, 2005, 02:05 PM
Heh heh heh.... how about the mere fact that they've got you pulled over and you're at their mercy?

You think they really, truly require "probable cause"?

Naive.

It's a good thing that any LEO who doesn't like your attitude or was merely on a fishing expedition wouldn't fabricate or exaggerate any of the details when it came time to explain in court why your vehicle was searched.

On the contrary, no, I'm not naive. And I fully expect a less than ethical person who's not above board to order me out of my car and do a search anyway, regardless. I've had it happen before (full search, not Terry search) and I'm not under any notion that it might not happen again.

That doesn't mean they're still not required to have probable cause (whether or not they follow the rules), and it doesn't mean that I won't be able to document what occurred immediately afterward. I'm not allowed to break the law and neither are they.

in response to highland ranger, hollow point bullets are only illegal in NJ if you are carrying them in a concealed handgun.

Actually, New Jersey does not really differentiate between concealed and open carry when it comes to permits. Since ordinary citizens were never intended to be able to get a permit to carry, the permit is simply termed "permit to carry" and it's for any type of carry. Armored car personnel often carry openly, for instance, and this permission is granted by the "permit to carry."

Hollowpoints fall under more or less the same exemptions that any weapon would. At your house, to or from the store, and to or from the range.

Tall Man
October 17, 2005, 02:11 PM
I thought we were talking about guns not cars. PA has very liberal gun laws, our only bad laws are: no cash & carry

No Cash and Carry? What do you mean here?

Steelcore
October 17, 2005, 05:52 PM
I specifically chose my new truck with firearms carry in mind.I have a locking tonneau cover with a locking tailgate.I never travel with guns in open view in the cab.

cbsbyte
October 17, 2005, 06:15 PM
I live in Massachusetts and we have a similar law to NJ, with an added rule that when being transfered in a vehicle all guns must have a trigger lock on it or be in a lockable case in the trunk or rear seat. If one gets pulled in Mass and the gun is not secured it will be confiscated, you will be fined, and one will need to appear in front of a judge to determine if you are still eligable to maintain you permit. This law is includes non-residents who are just traveling through the state. I suggest if you don't have a lockable case at least get a trigger lock.

TechBrute
October 17, 2005, 06:16 PM
Maybe I'm just flaunting, but I can load up my AR in any configuration I want and set it up on the dashboard with a C-Mag if I want. Of course, I'm sure some cops would hassle me, but it's legal.

countertop
October 17, 2005, 06:25 PM
Move.

I grew up in Jersey. Enjoy Virginia very much now.

Buzztail
October 17, 2005, 07:04 PM
I think I found your main problem:neener:

I drive a Volvo Stationwagon

um, I just keep a bag in the back seat labeled "DANGER, VENOMOUS REPTILES".
No one has ever asked to look in it yet!

I actually DO keep venomous reptiles:D

Highland Ranger
October 18, 2005, 10:20 PM
in response to highland ranger, hollow point bullets are only illegal in NJ if you are carrying them in a concealed handgun.

From Evan Nappen's Book: "Nappen II NJ Gun, Knife & Weapon Law" Page 31:

Paraphrasing: Under N.J.S 2C:39-3.f.
They are ONLY legal in your dwelling, land owned or possessed, while hunting, fishing or target shooting and at the place of purchase. Or to and from these places.

It is the bullet itself not the cartridge that is illegal.

Transporting loose rounds i.e. that fall out of your range bag and roll around the trunk and are found on a day where one of the above does not apply is ILLEGAL.

Highland Ranger
October 18, 2005, 10:30 PM
Here is the actual text of the law from the NJ Legislative site: http://lis.njleg.state.nj.us/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll?clientID=41965421&Depth=4&TD=WRAP&advquery=bullet&headingswithhits=on&infobase=statutes.nfo&rank=&record={179C}&softpage=Doc_Frame_Pg42&wordsaroundhits=2&zz=


Note that Police are allowed to use hollow points so not all men are created equal in NJ!

===================================

f.Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets. (1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet, or (2) any person, other than a collector of firearms or ammunition as curios or relics as defined in Title 18, United States Code, section 921 (a) (13) and has in his possession a valid Collector of Curios and Relics License issued by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, who knowingly has in his possession any body armor breaching or penetrating ammunition, which means: (a) ammunition primarily designed for use in a handgun, and (b) which is comprised of a bullet whose core or jacket, if the jacket is thicker than.025 of an inch, is made of tungsten carbide, or hard bronze, or other material which is harder than a rating of 72 or greater on the Rockwell B. Hardness Scale, and (c) is therefore capable of breaching or penetrating body armor, is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree. For purposes of this section, a collector may possess not more than three examples of each distinctive variation of the ammunition described above. A distinctive variation includes a different head stamp, composition, design, or color.

g.Exceptions. (1) Nothing in subsection a., b., c., d., e., f., j. or k. of this section shall apply to any member of the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard, or except as otherwise provided, to any law enforcement officer while actually on duty or traveling to or from an authorized place of duty, provided that his possession of the prohibited weapon or device has been duly authorized under the applicable laws, regulations or military or law enforcement orders. Nothing in subsection h. of this section shall apply to any law enforcement officer who is exempted from the provisions of that subsection by the Attorney General. Nothing in this section shall apply to the possession of any weapon or device by a law enforcement officer who has confiscated, seized or otherwise taken possession of said weapon or device as evidence of the commission of a crime or because he believed it to be possessed illegally by the person from whom it was taken, provided that said law enforcement officer promptly notifies his superiors of his possession of such prohibited weapon or device.

(2) a. Nothing in subsection f. (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land, nor shall subsection f. (1) be construed to prevent any licensed retail or wholesale firearms dealer from possessing such ammunition at its licensed premises, provided that the seller of any such ammunition shall maintain a record of the name, age and place of residence of any purchaser who is not a licensed dealer, together with the date of sale and quantity of ammunition sold.

b.Nothing in subsection f.(1) shall be construed to prevent a designated employee or designated licensed agent for a nuclear power plant under the license of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission from possessing hollow nose ammunition while in the actual performance of his official duties, if the federal licensee certifies that the designated employee or designated licensed agent is assigned to perform site protection, guard, armed response or armed escort duties and is appropriately trained and qualified, as prescribed by federal regulation, to perform those duties.

(3)Nothing in paragraph (2) of subsection f. or in subsection j. shall be construed to prevent any licensed retail or wholesale firearms dealer from possessing that ammunition or large capacity ammunition magazine at its licensed premises for sale or disposition to another licensed dealer, the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard, or to a law enforcement agency, provided that the seller maintains a record of any sale or disposition to a law enforcement agency. The record shall include the name of the purchasing agency, together with written authorization of the chief of police or highest ranking official of the agency, the name and rank of the purchasing law enforcement officer, if applicable, and the date, time and amount of ammunition sold or otherwise disposed. A copy of this record shall be forwarded by the seller to the Superintendent of the Division of State Police within 48 hours of the sale or disposition.

(4)Nothing in subsection a. of this section shall be construed to apply to antique cannons as exempted in subsection d. of N.J.S.2C:39-6.

(5)Nothing in subsection c. of this section shall be construed to apply to any person who is specifically identified in a special deer management permit issued by the Division of Fish and Wildlife to utilize a firearm silencer as part of an alternative deer control method implemented in accordance with a special deer management permit issued pursuant to section 4 of P.L.2000, c.46 (C.23:4-42.6), while the person is in the actual performance of the permitted alternative deer control method and while going to and from the place where the permitted alternative deer control method is being utilized. This exception shall not, however, otherwise apply to any person to authorize the purchase or possession of a firearm silencer.

Baron Holbach4
October 19, 2005, 12:28 PM
Carry a copy of the bill of sale for the firearm to prove that you are the lawful owner. Also, carry a range membership card to show that you are going to or coming from the range.

Highland Ranger
October 19, 2005, 09:42 PM
That used to be the scam in NYC.

Not sure that there are any 24 hour ranges . . . . none that I know of in North Jersey.

Maybe Paterson Rod and Gun?

Byron Quick
October 19, 2005, 10:34 PM
These type of threads make me schizoid. Part of me feels so sorry for guys in places like NJ, MD, MA, CA. The other part of me is so damn grateful that I don't live there.

What scares me even more is that it isn't just the gun laws. There's all kinds of crap you guys are saddled with. I sure hope you're not the wave of the future.

Highland Ranger
October 20, 2005, 02:04 PM
That makes two of us . . . . .

shooting time
October 20, 2005, 02:24 PM
Thats why i moved from NY 25 yrs ago to the south where firearms have their place in life .Everyone owns and shoots you can carry loaded in car with no permit (anti hijacking law) and it is easy to get carry permit.plus you can full auto weapons! God i love it here!!!!

RavenVT100
October 21, 2005, 12:11 AM
Maybe Paterson Rod and Gun?

Shut down this year. :(

If you enjoyed reading about "If I get pulled over, Im probably going to jail" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!