Best Sniper Rifle out of the box for $1000 or less?


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Scout Sniper
October 14, 2005, 05:39 PM
Best Sniper Rifle out of the box for $1000 or less?

just wanted your thought on this. IMO I would have to say Savage 110 Tactical 300winmag.:D mine will cut 1/2 MOA groups out to 800 yards all day long. Equiped with a Super Sniper Scope & Ultimate Snipe Stock total price: $985.:cool:

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idakfan
October 14, 2005, 05:43 PM
Wow! I'm not a bolt-action or scope guy (have never owned or fired one) but that's impressive accuracy comming from the affordable Savage series.

That price would be a little higher with the new Accu-Trigger models wouldn't it?

What kind of mount/rings do you use?

Scout Sniper
October 14, 2005, 05:46 PM
it is the Accu trigger model I got it stock for $450. the scope was $350 /w Badger rings & mount. and the stock was @ $185

jobu07
October 14, 2005, 06:29 PM
...that's impressive accuracy comming from the affordable Savage series.

+1

ocabj
October 14, 2005, 06:45 PM
The McMillan A-5 that my Savage sits in cost more than the rifle did when I originally bought it.

R.H. Lee
October 14, 2005, 06:48 PM
I'm thinkin' whatever these guys are using
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=160902

Scout Sniper
October 14, 2005, 07:22 PM
I just love 300winmag Long range Rifles:evil:

USSR
October 14, 2005, 08:21 PM
If you're talking Tactical Rifles, there are several good choices that are under $1,000. The Remington 700P and the Winchester Stealth are both good choices. If you are talking Savage, then I would stay away from the tupperware stocks found on many of their cheaper models, and go directly to the 10FP LE2B with it's McMillan stock. An even better choice is a few hundred dollars over $1,000 (about $1300), and that is the FN SPR. Plan on paying as much or more $$$ for a quality scope, rail, and rings, and you are good to go.

Don

beerslurpy
October 14, 2005, 08:24 PM
Tikka with optics is well below that range and shoots sub MOA out of the box. I got a Leupold vari-X 3-9x and the gun itself is chambered in 7mm rem.
Rem 700 is slightly more and also good quality.
Savage is decent with some work and very cheap.

Any of these guns is capable of sniping if you are.

nipprdog
October 14, 2005, 08:48 PM
Savage is decent with some work and very cheap.
:rolleyes:

possum
October 14, 2005, 09:31 PM
Remington 700 pss and a nice 3x9 or you could even get the package deal with the mentioned and harris bi-pod and case to boot.I got mine for $899 that is a little low compared to normal but I had a buddy in the business he got me a great deal. or any heavy barreled or flutted barrel winchester model 70 like the stealth that was stated earlier because they are awesome!

Kharn
October 14, 2005, 10:02 PM
Remington 700P.

Kharn

waterhouse
October 14, 2005, 10:41 PM
I got most of my gear used and as a package deal, but my 700 LTR (PSS's little brother) wears a sightron sII 3-12x42 on a nightforce base with TPS rings. It came out to a little under 900 for the package.

Scout Sniper
October 14, 2005, 11:57 PM
Thanks for all of the great post guys.:) I just wanted to see how other people thought about their rifles. I LOVE MINE!!!!!:D what ever you have is the best to you, and that is how it should be. we are all different but we have one thing in common, our love of firearms which noone will ever be able to take away.:D

MJ
October 16, 2005, 12:22 PM
:cool:
My 110 in .308 is ten years old and is still my OLD RELIABLE. And even though I don't shoot 2000 yards every day like you guys it owns most targets too 500 yards, that's my personnel limit.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/b7593108.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/738eda48.jpg

I remove the scope to transport the rig and slap it back on and it never misses first shot. I also have no problem with the stock. The idea was to have a no fuss shooter with out all the useless adons.

Cheers
:rolleyes: MJ:rolleyes:

Stinkyshoe
October 16, 2005, 04:14 PM
Nice group man. Now if you'd just shoot another round to the right of the X, you'd have a yourself a little smiley face(and so would I):D

Stinkyshoe
October 16, 2005, 04:26 PM
Would you gentlemen mind commenting on the short comings of the Maj. Plaster 'tupperware' stock? I guess I am not that good of a shooter that it would make a difference.

With the Farrel mount riser, are you best off with low or medium rings?

What would be the increase in range be from the 308 model to the 300 WM? Can the 308 Model be rebarreled for the 300WM?

Thanks
Ss

bogie
October 16, 2005, 06:55 PM
[QUOTE=just wanted your thought on this. IMO I would have to say Savage 110 Tactical 300winmag.:D mine will cut 1/2 MOA groups out to 800 yards all day long. Equiped with a Super Sniper Scope & Ultimate Snipe Stock total price: $985.:cool:[/QUOTE]

All day long, huh?

I'm sure that the builders of custom rifles that can really do that All Day Long will be dismayed.

bogie
October 16, 2005, 06:59 PM
Plaster's tupperware makes vibration noises when I make the gun I've got in it go "bang." That's not a good thing, because something's going on that will adversely affect accuracy. The stock should be _dead_. It also isn't really very good for riding on bags or an improvised rest, such as a backpack. I guess the designer assumed that people would want to use bipods all the time.

My Savage 110FP will still shoot around 0.75 MOA tho... nice round groups.

Gotta stay on top of the loading and pay attention to the wind and the setup on the bench though.

Black Snowman
October 16, 2005, 09:58 PM
For the money I really liked my CZ 550 Varmint laminate. It's now available with the HS Precision kevlar stock too and includes rings. Even if you pay full retail (which you can get it for well under) you've got money left over for a decent scope. I really liked the set trigger for bench shooting and standard pull was nice for off hand.

I replaced it with a rifle that only slightly out-performed it and cost over twice as much, a Browning A-Bolt Eclipse w/Boss.

Stinkyshoe
October 17, 2005, 02:32 AM
Do you guys have any idea what would cause unreliable detonation with the Model 10? Trigger go click...no boom...?

I guess I must be oblivious to the vibration you are talking about. I am not quite sure what you mean. Was yours properly torqued in place? or is it characteristic of the plastic.

Some of you mentioned spending a pretty penny on an after market stock for the M10. Is it really worth it to do that(in your opinion) seeings how it is [I]just[I] a savage? I kinda liked the whole Savage idea because they are somewhat cheaper than other brands and seemingly every bit as accurate.

USSR
October 17, 2005, 07:11 AM
Would you gentlemen mind commenting on the short comings of the Maj. Plaster 'tupperware' stock?

If you are referring to the Choate Super Sniper stock, I would not call it a tupperware stock. A tupperware stock is one in which you can grasp the forearm and twist it or push it upward so that it will contact the barrel (not good). The problems with the Choate SS stock are: too d@mn heavy; egonomically not suitable for carry and any type of shooting other than bench or prone; too d@mn heavy; cheap and flimsy stock adjustments/attachments. Oh, and did I mention that it's too d@mn heavy. That being said, it will work for prone or bench shooting, and is a slight improvement over the tupperware stocks found on the cheap Savage models. If you want a real stock, save up your $$$ and get a McMillan.

Don

ctdonath
October 17, 2005, 08:07 PM
Focus your money on the scope: a GOOD 10x with mil-dot reticle. A 1MOA rifle is not as expensive to come by. If you can't see the target better than you can shoot at it, a better barrel won't do you any good. Even a 2MOA rifle will likely hit a man-sized target at 1000 yards if you can see it clearly enough.

Crosshair
October 18, 2005, 12:38 AM
Any Accu trigger Savage and a good mid-range scope will do you well.

MJ
October 18, 2005, 07:58 PM
:)
I'll stick with the stock setup. If there is a problem it's with me. Rifle, scope and mounting hardware under $900. Ten years and several thousand rounds of fun without visiting any tuners or after market do-dads has a value.:p

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/a8838d28.jpg

100 yard warm up on air rifle targets.


Cheers
;) MJ;)

Scout Sniper
October 19, 2005, 12:42 PM
Like Myself, most of us say Savage Tactical /w Accutrigger:D

Rockrivr1
October 19, 2005, 01:14 PM
+1 with USSR

The FN PSR is an excellent choice. I've had one for a few years now and I've never had an issue. I put a Leopold 4.5-14X40 adj obj scope on it and I can really reach out and touch something when I need to. They are a little more expensive, but so far it's been worth it.

Freelance Tax Collector
October 19, 2005, 01:22 PM
I have a remington PSS or 700P as it is now called in .300 winchester magnum with an IOR 10x56 scope. I'd post pictures if I had some. The whole setup was about $1400. Get a quality rig and you won't be sorry. You're gonna probably want to try going the cheap way and getting a stock hunting rifle and putting optics that will "hold you over" until you can get better glass. You will spend less money if you buy that $1400 rig now with the scope, mounts, bipod and all, than getting the stock rifle and upgrading it later.

The PSS already has the essential gear for precision shooting. It has an HS precision stock and free floated bull barrel. I put a lot of money into my scope because I wanted an IOR, but you would easily be served with the super sniper from SWFA as well

Red_SC
October 19, 2005, 01:28 PM
I'd have to say Rem. 700P with Super Sniper, 'cause that's what I have, and couldn't be happier with it.


With the Farrel mount riser, are you best off with low or medium rings?

What would be the increase in range be from the 308 model to the 300 WM? Can the 308 Model be rebarreled for the 300WM?

Thanks
Ss

I had the Farrell base with low rings, and even a 50mm objective looked like it was 1/2" from the barrel. I ended up selling it and getting a TPS base and low rings, and my 42mm Super Sniper still clears easily. The Farrell is really, really high, and unless you're scope is a Hubble lookalike, low rings should work.

The 300 WM has a significantly longer range than the .308. I'm not an authority because I've never stretched the legs on my .300, but the .308 is getting close to it's limits by 1000, a couple of loads can go a little farther. The .300 still has several hundred yards left, and will have less drop and wind drift getting to 1000. That extra performance isn't free, though. You pay for it in extra recoil, noise, and cost, and much shorter barrel life. Even if you reload, you will use almost twice as much powder and your case life is shorter with the .300.

You can't rebarrel a .308 to .300 WM. Factory .308's are built on a short action, and the .300 WM takes a long action.

Freelance Tax Collector
October 19, 2005, 01:38 PM
The 168 grain match bullet from a .308 and a 24 inch barrel will go subsonic at 770 yards. A .300 win mag will go further than I am capable of shooting. I'd guess it goes subsonic at 18 or 1900 yards with most match loads.

Oh also, unless you want a super sniper or think you'll be doing some rough field use, get a variable power scope. And don't be convinced that a large objective= better. Typically you can get better accuracy if your scope bell is closer to the bore. I chose the 56mm IOR because I wanted the low light capablity and it was the cheapest high power in IORs line. Imagine that, the fixed 10x with a 42mm objective is $250 more.

Oh Yeah, and don't friggin cheap out on mounts either. You will regret it if you do. Make sure you get steel mounts and steel rings from a reputable company. I used leupold. Almost anyone who makes good scopes will also make good mounts. Just remember that you do really get what you pay for. The lower end of the price spectrum is where cheap crap is at with some very rare exceptions (like the super sniper). Also, don't believe that you need a really high power scope for anything but benchrest competition or .50 bmg shooting. IMO for most standard calibers, 12 power is the absolute maximum that anyone really needs.

Scout Sniper
October 21, 2005, 11:40 AM
Thanks Everyone who replied to this. Everyone has a preferance for him's or her's favorite Rifles. God Bless you all & lets prey for the safe return of all our troops overseas. again think you all.:D

FNFiveSeven
October 21, 2005, 12:17 PM
The 168 grain match bullet from a .308 and a 24 inch barrel will go subsonic at 770 yards.

I shoot Federal's 168 gr. match out of a 24" bbl, and it will easily stay supersonic beyond 900 yards at sea level, and will usually go to 1000 yards at slightly higher elevations (above 2500 feet).

A .300 win mag will go further than I am capable of shooting. I'd guess it goes subsonic at 18 or 1900 yards with most match loads

Even with the heavier 190 grain match loadings, a .300 Win Mag will only stay supersonic to about 1400 yards. If you want 0a .300 win mag will stay supersonic at 1800 yards you better move to the Swiss Alps.

Typically you can get better accuracy if your scope bell is closer to the bore.[QUOTE]

The distance between the scope and the bore doesn't affect accuracy, it only affects the shape of the trajectory of the bullet relative to the bore. Some of the best benchrest guns ever built set their records using Nightforce's 56mm benchrest scope.

[QUOTE]Can the 308 Model be rebarreled for the 300WM?

As Red-SC said, no, but you can rebarrel to 300 WSM, which is arguably a better long range .30 cal choice than .330 win mag anyway. 300 WSM offers the same ballistic performance as 300 win mag while offering the accuracy advantages of using a short action.

BTW, I would go with the Remington 700.

USSR
October 21, 2005, 01:02 PM
The point at which any bullet goes subsonic is determined by it's BC, it's velocity, and the atmospheric pressure (altitude) at which it is fired.

Don

Red_SC
October 21, 2005, 01:28 PM
As Red-SC said, no, but you can rebarrel to 300 WSM, which is arguably a better long range .30 cal choice than .330 win mag anyway. 300 WSM offers the same ballistic performance as 300 win mag while offering the accuracy advantages of using a short action.

BTW, I would go with the Remington 700.

The .300 WSM also has no belt, which is a distinct advantage IMHO.

Freelance Tax Collector
October 22, 2005, 05:02 PM
I'm just saying what works for me in the world according to freelance. I shoot in the utah desert so I have some range to work with.

The first high power centerfire rifle I shot long range with was a 1917 enfield sporter with a "periscope" type mount. I think that it had a lot more felt recoil than the .300 I have now. Part of this I think was due to not getting a very good cheek weld, but I was still able to shoot 2.5" groups @100 yards with good nosler ammo.

Now I really feel like I have graduated since I got my .300 win mag last year. On it sits an IOR 10x56mm which I am considering replaceing with the 42mm model. I don't know. IOR makes damn good scopes though.

nyresq
October 23, 2005, 05:09 AM
from RED_SC: The .300 WSM also has no belt, which is a distinct advantage IMHO.

why does not having a belt make it better?


from BLACK RAZOR: 300 WSM offers the same ballistic performance as 300 win mag while offering the accuracy advantages of using a short action.


what advantage does a short action have in terms of accuracy?

not trolling, but seriously, I never heard either of these statements and was wondering what they were based on, as I have seen several long action rifles used as precision rifles including .300 win mags and 7mm mags.

please explain:confused:

FNFiveSeven
October 23, 2005, 11:41 AM
what advantage does a short action have in terms of accuracy?

Well, there's a lot of theories out there about this topic. Some people say that the shorter actions are stronger, and therefore they flex less during firing, which results in greater accuracy. Others say that the shorter the case, the more uniform the burning of the powder, which will give you more consistent performance = more accuracy. I think that the accuracy gain is mostly due to the latter reason, although the former doesn't hurt.

To verify this, just look at the .308 vs. 30-06 comparison. Despite near identical ballistic performance (the 30-06 is slightly faster), the .308 WAY outperforms the 30-06 in the accuracy department at all ranges.

Furthermore, look at all the specially designed benchrest and PPC cartridges out there, e.g. .22 BR and 6mm PPC. These are super short, very fat cases, and they can consistently shoot sub 1/4 MOA groups at 100 meters, sometimes even better.

Not sure about the disadvantage of using belted cases, but I do know they are an older, pretty much obsolete design... no new cartridge today has a belted case.

Lastly, you shouldn't have to worry about sounding like a troll just because you are looking for some basic info, learning about shooting is what this board is supposed to be all about.

jpdviper
November 27, 2005, 07:32 PM
Tikka with optics is well below that range and shoots sub MOA out of the box. I got a Leupold vari-X 3-9x and the gun itself is chambered in 7mm rem.
Rem 700 is slightly more and also good quality.
Savage is decent with some work and very cheap.

Any of these guns is capable of sniping if you are.


Hey ive purchased the remington 700 SPS .300 ultra mag. is this version as good as the 700 p and will it shoot sub moa out of the box,

el44vaquero
November 27, 2005, 07:49 PM
How about one of those Dragunov Sniper Combos?

CDignition
November 28, 2005, 12:09 AM
Dragunovs are a bad choice, and not cheap..

look in the for sale area..I have a custom rifle for sale, 300 Wm..;) and I disagree with the belt theory above...Mine shoots under 1/2 MOA all day..;)

Powderman
November 28, 2005, 03:07 AM
All day long, huh?

I'm sure that the builders of custom rifles that can really do that All Day Long will be dismayed.

I have a Winchester M70 in .300 Win Mag. The smallest group I have fired in it so far has been about .330, for 3 rounds at 100 yards.

I fired a 3 round group that measured a hair above 4 inches at approximately 700 yards with this rifle. (Going by my friend's measurement, not mine).

Load used:

175 grain Sierra MatchKing
71.0 IMR 4831
Federal standard primers
New or once fired cases
Seated to 3.510 OAL

This load chronographs at 2980 from my rifle.

By the way, with the exception of my glass bedding, the rifle is box stock. And yes, it WILL do it all day long.

TMAS
November 28, 2005, 02:21 PM
Stinkyshoe,
If your Savage has unreliable ignition, I would look to see if the firing pin protrudes out far enough from the bolt face. Then adjust the firing pin spring for more pressure if needed. I added more spring pressure to mine and the problem went away. BTW, I never had a problem with it until, I completely dissasembled it, had a machinist do some lathe work on the new bolt head and reciever. I installed a new 6mmBR barrel. When I reasembled the firing pin and spring, bolt assembly, I didn't do it exactly correctly, the first time. :)

Don't get me wrong here. I really like the accuracy of my Savages and the price, plus the ablility to change barrels. But for a Real Sniper rifle, the Savage wouldn't be my choice. I think the extractor is too cheesy for one thing.

I would choose either the CZ or Winchester (because of the controlled round feed) or a Remington 700P. I'm not too fond of Rem's extractor but the military seems to like them, and they do more sniper shooting than me. But, I'm not a sniper. I might have to go over $1000 bucks with this setup, but what the heck would I care because Uncle Sam would pay for it. Heck, If I was still in the military, they would just issue it to me. :)

Now for long range paper or varmint shooting, I'd probably put the Savage up at the top of my list, and use the money saved for good mounts and glass.

Darth Ruger
November 28, 2005, 05:18 PM
why does not having a belt make it better?
A belted case headspaces off the belt, whereas a non-belted case headspaces off the shoulder, which provides for more precise alignment of the bullet with the bore. Supposedly.

MDG1976
November 28, 2005, 08:59 PM
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/mdg1976/group.jpg

I got this group with my Savage 10FP in 308. It's 5 shots from 75 yards (the 100 yrd post in my lane was broken). Ammo is Federal Match 168 gr. The gun was under $500.

bogie
November 28, 2005, 11:09 PM
Re: the Choate stock: That being said, it will work for prone or bench shooting, and is a slight improvement over the tupperware stocks found on the cheap Savage models. If you want a real stock, save up your $$$ and get a McMillan.

I beg to differ... it may work okay for prone, or with a bipod, but the design of it almost completely precludes using any sort of unattached front rest, including improvised stuff like rucksacks.

And I own one.

And I second that - give Kelly a call...

bogie
November 28, 2005, 11:12 PM
You can't rebarrel a .308 to .300 WM. Factory .308's are built on a short action, and the .300 WM takes a long action.

That's not the reason - the .308 boltface is smaller than the .300 Winmag boltface... It'll work just fine for the .284 case variants tho...

bogie
November 28, 2005, 11:17 PM
My definition of "all day long" goes something like that...

5 targets, 5 shots each for the record group, with moving and stationary backers. Each target is allowed 7 minutes, and must be finished within that 7 minutes.

No called fliers. No excuses. Bring money.

For an interesting article on accuracy shooting, look at this month's Outdoor Life.

rockstar.esq
November 29, 2005, 12:56 AM
That's not the reason - the .308 boltface is smaller than the .300 Winmag boltface... It'll work just fine for the .284 case variants tho...

Savage rifles have a unique bolt design that allows the bolt face to be changed to any size within the action length. I hate to rain on your parade but the 300 win mag IS SIGNIFICANTLY LONGER than the .308win.

As for ballistic differences, personally I think the difference in trajectories is blown WAY out of proportion. The .45-70 had a great reputation for long range shooting in it's day. It had a huge rainbow trajectory for a 1000yd shot. The point is that consistency is more significant than trajectory. For all the added ammunition cost of the .300 win mag you could have practiced so much more with the humble .308 and gotten the job done just as effectively. It's not like many of us are actually attempting a shot on a living thing at these extended ranges.

Powderman
November 29, 2005, 01:07 AM
My definition of "all day long" goes something like that...

5 targets, 5 shots each for the record group, with moving and stationary backers. Each target is allowed 7 minutes, and must be finished within that 7 minutes.

No called fliers. No excuses. Bring money.

For an interesting article on accuracy shooting, look at this month's Outdoor Life.

At 100 yards? The only thing that gives me pause is that I do not have access to a range with moving target backers.

Would some good witnesses do?

Darth Ruger
November 29, 2005, 04:32 AM
Would you gentlemen mind commenting on the short comings of the Maj. Plaster 'tupperware' stock?SniperCountry has an article that's highly critical of that stock:

http://snipercountry.com/InReviews/Choate_USS.asp

Nematocyst
November 29, 2005, 05:26 AM
Remington 700P. Rem 700 XCR. (http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_700/model_700_XCR.asp)

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