We are RIGHT, they are WRONG


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Drjones
January 1, 2003, 09:13 PM
"The unexamined life is hardly worth living."

Keeping that in mind, I've sought to challenge my views on the RKBA. Obviously, I'm active here and on TFL, I've thought through the arguments from the antis, and such.

I even have been active on the Michael Moore forums, trying again to challenge my views.

I really do hesitate to say that gun control is a black-and-white issue, with a right side and a wrong side. Previously, I always thought that a vast majority of issues had at least some gray areas. 'Most invariably, claiming "I am right, you are wrong" is just a display of ignorance, but in our case it is true.

However, based on what I've read, this is what I have concluded: Each and every last fact, study, and statistic supports the pro-gun people. The anti-gun people have absolutely NO factual basis for ANY of their concerns that they voice. WE, the pro-RKBA group are RIGHT, THEY are WRONG. It really is black and white, right and wrong.

Among the overwhelmingly intellectual, amazingly cerebral and articulate arguments I have encountered at the MM forums:

-Guns are just penis extensions. You only want one to prove you're a "real man"

Compare that with:

-"i say it takes a lot more balls to do violence with bare hands
or other non-projectile weapons" YES, that is an actual quote: http://michaelmoore.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=7702&highlight= Third reply. :rolleyes:

-(This is my favorite) "I would rather be raped than be saved by someone with a gun"

I am still on the lookout for a sound, logical, emotionally devoid argument for gun control. I think I will remain on the lookout, as such a beast simply does not exist.

Anyone wanna try?

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Preacherman
January 1, 2003, 09:21 PM
"I would rather be raped than be saved by someone with a gun"Well, my dear commentator, when you've had to work with as many rape victims as I have, and seen injuries such as lacerations and tears to the genitals (internal and external), infection with AIDS, pregnancy, shock, emotional, spiritual and physical trauma, the destruction of sound relationships due to the after-effects of the rape... do I need to go on? Anyone who could post such a piece of @#$%&* is either certifiably insane or is a fool beyond my capacity to describe (at least in polite language). What a load of codswallop!

Drjones
January 1, 2003, 09:30 PM
Father: That was uttered by "unamused." She was at TFL very briefly, on my invitation.

She also advocated the banning of ALL guns. :cuss: :rolleyes:

Redlg155
January 1, 2003, 09:31 PM
Good grief. It makes my head hurt just to read those forums.

Some folks are so far out of touch from reality that it's pathetic.

A Police Man protects them
A Butcher kills for them
A Farmer Provides crops for them
The Govt Educates their Children
And the world is such a nice place to live.

Until...

The Police Man cannot be there in time to protect them
The Butcher succumbs to their teachings that meat is "evil"
The Farmer dies out because everyone wants to live in the City
Their Children rebel against them and follow the Govt

And suddenly the world isn't such a nice place.

The next words? Most likely " I need a gun".

Good SHooting
RED

sm
January 1, 2003, 09:44 PM
Couple of thoughts:
-yeah what Preacher said
-we were ask to challenge ourselves--not give ourselves cerebral hemmorages
'-can't change people places and things'--they have to do that,
-we sometimes have to convert one at a time (or small groups) not an entire force at once.
-Wars are won one battle at a time, focus on a small idea , conquer and go on,
-'people have the right to be wrong'--true, but that also means people have the right to know the truth.
- persistence,like TFL proved, some members at TFL and here on THR were once anti's, slowly TFL (patience, compassion, civil, persistence) converted--they have hence converted others.
-a load is lighter if weight is shared.
-Lead by example

I used to be in the OR, saw some things, heard those anti's--or surviving families " you know, I gotta take care of me, police can't camp on my doorstep...me or Dr . can recommend a CHL instructor.

TallPine
January 1, 2003, 09:57 PM
My definitions:

RIGHT: living your own life, treating other people with respect, and giving a helping hand once in a while

WRONG: trying to control how other people live their lives


Guess which one of these "gun control" fits into?

dave
January 1, 2003, 10:01 PM
"I would rather be raped than be saved by someone with a gun"




Did someone REALLY say that? Gee Mo Nee! I think I'm at a loss for words, for the first time.


Wonder what goes through her mind when some gutter rat sides up next to her and says, "Hey cupcake, just where do you live?".

Drjones
January 1, 2003, 10:05 PM
Wonder what goes through her mind when some gutter rat sides up next to her and says, "Hey cupcake, just where do you live?".

"Just give him what he wants and you won't get hurt.":rolleyes:

HER prob, not mine...

4v50 Gary
January 1, 2003, 10:13 PM
Dr Jones. Ask she who would rather be raped than saved by someone with a gun (even a cop?) whether she feels the same way towards a younger sister or her own teenage daughter (if she had one)? I'd like to know her response.

Redlg155
January 1, 2003, 10:14 PM
"Hey cupcake, just where do you live?".

Where I work guys say that to each other all the time!:D

Good Shooting
RED

Betty
January 1, 2003, 10:14 PM
I would rather be raped than be saved by someone with a gun

I've heard a few of those and plenty of "I'd rather die than stoop to that level of violence by defending myself with a gun."

And I return with, "Well, how about defending your kids?"

And they reply with, "You've been watching too much TV." :rolleyes:

On challenging my views of the RKBA... My cousin died several years ago as the result of a negligent discharge. The boy who shot him now lives the rest of his life with it. I was a teenager then, but it never crossed my mind that guns should be banned or kept out of the hands of teens so accidents wouldn't happen. Had the shooter's father taught him the basic safety rules as my father taught me, the incident never would've happened. What happened was the result of ignorance and stupidity - the gun did what it was designed to do: fire when the trigger was pulled, and shoot a bullet in the direction it was pointed at.

And that's what it all boils down to - personal responsibility and accountability. No law can regulate stupidity, carelessness, or even the devious nature in people's hearts. One person may murder using a gun, but another can save his own life with one. And nobody is going to make me give up what I've handled responsibly for years because of the misdeeds of another.

Drjones
January 1, 2003, 10:15 PM
4v50: She hasn't been around the Moore forums for some time. Maybe we scared her off with all our big words and frightening facts!!!:evil:

I think her response would be that she would of course want the cop to help, but wouldn't want him to use his gun, because we all know that all killing is bad. Even killing rapists. :rolleyes:

Skunkabilly
January 1, 2003, 10:17 PM
I got a headache when I headed over there. Where's the barf smilie, btw?

Drjones
January 1, 2003, 10:18 PM
Runt: I'm sorry about your cousin. If anything, incidents like that should make one hate ignorance, as that was really the culprit there... :(

4v50 Gary
January 1, 2003, 10:18 PM
Well, if she isn't around any more, perhaps she is beginning to see the light. :) Either that or she's at the Rape Treatment Center getting counseling. :(
I don't wish her ill will, but I don't understand how some folks can even conceptualize allowing themselves to be victimized.

grampster
January 1, 2003, 10:21 PM
I have some "liberal" friends. Have known them all my life, since before we even knew about positions on things, or even cared about them. I have watched the evolution and participated in it.
The generic description of a Lib or Anti or anyone who seems to want to take away the rights of others (usually their comments end with "Its for the Children" or "If your'e not doing anything wrong, why do you fear checklanes?" or "It's for your own good" or "All I want is a safer world and universal peace") is generally true. There is truly no reasoning with them. They are right. You are wrong. Not only are you wrong but a cretin to boot. Most discussions normally turn into them insulting your intelligence or questioning your sanity for holding the position you do. They are driven by emotion not reason. Period!!
Reading drjones original comment thoroughly points out the genetic difference between them and usn's. drjones questions his conclusions and seeks knowledge and then appears to be open to changing his conclusion or behavior or whatever based on the knowledge sought and found. Libs and Anti's are not wired that way.
My conclusion about them is another reason why I think institutionalized education is vastly overated: It has produced narrow, ignorant, selfish, emotional and intellectual retards. The trouble is....most of them are in charge.
grampster

GregoryTech
January 1, 2003, 10:34 PM
There are so few American's posting there that I sometimes wonder if it's really worth the effort.

Even though I know I won't change any minds, I persist in case there are fence sitters lurking. I'd hate for them read just the lies and miss an opportunity to hear the truth.

Drjones
January 1, 2003, 10:35 PM
Excellent post, Grampster!

Over at the MM forums I have been told I "don't seem very open to the other side...as if I've come here with my mind already made up."

That's partially true; I've already seen most all the arguments, seen them all too easily debunked by fact and logic. I'm at the MM forums trying to see if anyone else can offer anything fact and reason can't refute.

They can't.

Too bad for them...

Blackhawk
January 1, 2003, 10:41 PM
The antis' positions are based on unattainable hypotheticals.

"If criminals obeyed the laws," but they wouldn't be criminals then, would they?

"If there was no crime" that would be a situation mankind has NEVER experienced.

"If there was no need to hunt," but the suffering of huge overpopulations of game as they starved would be immense.

"If...."

Of course, if their hypotheticals were realistic, there might be some talking room, but they're not and the world we live in cannot be the blissful place the antis assume it would be simply by them achieving their unrealistic and ill considered objectives.

It all boils down to "Don't answer a fool in his folly."

TallPine
January 1, 2003, 10:45 PM
institutionalized education is vastly overated: It has produced narrow, ignorant, selfish, emotional and intellectual retards.

But it is working exactly as designed.

(well, in most cases - I managed to escape somehow, but that was many years ago and the system is working "better" now)

waynzwld
January 1, 2003, 10:55 PM
Drjones, you have learned a valuable lesson of life. 99.9% of everything is black and white, all this "gray area" is just liberal bull to convince all the sheep that anything they say is true. If se if you believe as they say, that everything is gray, they can change at anytime, what they tell the sheep,(and you, if you fall for it) will not question it, even though it might be 180 degrees out of phase from what they just told you last week.

All these blissninnies are clinicaly INSANE!

dave
January 1, 2003, 10:58 PM
There is truly no reasoning with them. They are right. You are wrong. Not only are you wrong but a cretin to boot. Most discussions normally turn into them insulting your intelligence or questioning your sanity for holding the position you do. They are driven by emotion not reason. Period!!



So very true.

A little OT, but does anyone know the definintion of a racist?





Someone who is winning an arguement with a liberal.

Dennis
January 1, 2003, 11:18 PM
We hear so much about statistics. When gun controllers start with their lies, we can show FBI figures to prove the anti-freedom forces are wrong. As another couple "arrows in your quiver," here’s a reference and a jab you also might want to consider using.

1) Here’s a reference for one we call, “Lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

[Quote] (http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0202/0202shams.htm)
In his autobiography, Twain wrote: "Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: 'There are three kinds of lies: Lies, damned lies and statistics.'" However, no one has been able to find evidence that the British Prime Minister ever made such a remark. As noted in Ralph Keyes's Nice Guys Finish Seventh, Harper Collins, 1992, investigators have discovered the following comment by a member of the (British) Royal Statistical Society: "We may quote to one another with a chuckle the words of the Wise Statesman, lies, damned lies, statistics..." (Journal of the Royal Statistical Society, 1896). The similarity between the comments is unmistakable, but the connection to Twain or Disraeli is unknown.
[End quote]

2) Here’s one my son-in-law passed to be from a friend of his:
Consider a group of ten young women. One is nine months pregnant. Using YOUR statistical methods:
- You could say each of the women is ten percent pregnant.
- You might even say each of the women is an average of nearly one month pregnant.
- Finally, you could assert that the pregnant woman is ninety percent a virgin.


Then ask to hear the tyrants' statistics one more time…..

;)

2dogs
January 2, 2003, 12:43 AM
I am still on the lookout for a sound, logical, emotionally devoid argument for gun control.............. Anyone wanna try?


Sure. I am a tyrant and total gun control makes it infinately easier for me to control your life, and the lives of all those I rule- and makes it much easier to kill you should the need arise.

Sound, logical, emotionally devoid.

I win.:neener:

Mike Weber
January 2, 2003, 12:44 AM
Miss Unamused is a real paragon of intellect!
I would rather be raped than be saved by someone with a gun
In one of the threads over on the MMBFC site she admitted to being an accessory to a violation of NYCs Sullivan law. One of her friends had brought a handgun into NYC. Neither her or her friend had either an NYC handgun permit or premises permit, making them both criminals. She even posted a thread about these events on the MM board. She also admitted to being so ignorant about firearms that she checked to see if this firearm was loaded by looking down the muzzle. Apparently this was a revolver. She strikes me as the type who spend their entire life living in secure gated communities, far removed from the realities of street crime. One thing that really stands out to me in regard to the anti self defense crowd, is their idea that somehow the criminal really means them no harm and is only after their posessions. Their view of the criminal elements is that the criminals are somehow unfortunate victims of society who have no choice in becoming criminals. They place the lives of the criminal predators on an equal footing with that of their victims. Unamused is typical of the American anti's that I expected to find on the MM website. What came as a shock to me was finding so few homegrown anti's there and so much support for Michael Moore coming from overseas. I had never heard of Micheal Moore until Bowling For Columbine. I have since discovered that the majority of Micheal Moore fans are the America hating left world wide.What it all boils down to is that they resent us for our prosperity. And the fact that we refuse to surrender our rights and soveriegnity to their UN world council. We as American gunowners represent everything that they view as evil in the world. Here is a quote from the MMBFC forum showing how they view gunowners. Pickup driving,racist,redneck,wifebeaters One thing that I've noticed over there, we seem to have driven most of them off of the BFC forum onto other parts of the board.

roscoe
January 2, 2003, 01:02 AM
Where are these Michael Moore forums? I like an occasional dust-up. Got link info?

Mike Weber
January 2, 2003, 01:28 AM
Here's a link. http://www.michaelmoore.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=6
If you head over there be sure to bring your Kevlar and Nomex, the place is a real cesspool.

Harold Mayo
January 2, 2003, 08:43 AM
I went over there and looked around and now I don't feel clean...

The ignorance of some of those people is incredible. Not just on the gun stuff, but on social issues and politics. Here is a quote by a proponent of socialism:

"If you are an owner of a hugely successful company raking in thousands and millions, you didn't get there purely through your own hard work. You got there through exploiting other people's need for money to make more for yourself. A car factory is nothing without it's workers.

If you get taxed from being rich I don't think the idea is disciminaion because you are rich, I think the idea is more; ok, you have plenty of money and a luxury lifestyle, some people have nothing, we're going to take a little bit of your money because you have too much anyway and give it to someone who really needs it. If you moan; don't be so damn greedy.

Unfortunately many governments don't spend taxes on anything sensible (ours recently bailed out the bankrupt nuclear ndustry and are preparing for a pointless and destructive war).

Wealth addicts are more dangerous than drug addicts.


This guy has definite issues with people who get ahead in life financially. "Exploiting other people's need for money to make more for yourself"? How ELSE do you make money? HOW ELSE?

:banghead:

Harold Mayo
January 2, 2003, 08:59 AM
I made a mistake and went back...now I need a long, hot shower.

A quote:

"In a mature government, with an extensive police network (and the exchange of rights that occurs there), many liberals would argue that guns are superfluous and dangerous in the hands of private citizens. "


"Mature government"? What, pray tell, is that?

It's a cop-out, of course, on a huge scale. Obviously, any government that is not "mature" is one where there are still survivors who believe in individual rights. Good examples of mature governments would be Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, and Mao's China.

Harold Mayo
January 2, 2003, 09:03 AM
I'm sorry, fellow forum members, but one last posting in this thread for me...

I forgot about Bowling For Columbine. It being early in the morning, I quite naturally thought that the initials "BFC" in reference to Michael Moore meant Big Fat...and then a compound word dealing with sucking that I'm sure the word filter won't let me use.

His forums are like a stinky fart...you hate it but you just can't NOT smell it...


I wish that link had never been posted...

:cuss:

Steel
January 2, 2003, 10:04 AM
"I would rather be raped than be saved by someone with a gun"


What about a sword, a bat, a rock, a shoe, a fist...?

These are all just tools -- they all can save lives!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

triggertime
January 2, 2003, 11:17 AM
I read a review of 'Bowling for Columbine' where the person praised Michael Moore and then suggested that he run for President.

My stomach still hasn't recovered. :uhoh:

Politically Incorrect
January 2, 2003, 11:45 AM
I found this from Drjones's link to MM message board (fifth post down) by the name of mrsuicide.

And there might be some illegal guns, but this is the police's problem. Not yours...

So someone uses an illegal gun to rob, rape or murder someone (while they are not allowed to defend themselves with a gun) and it's just the police's problem? With this much logic, I'm surprise they can open a can of soup!

Do we really have to live next door to these people? :banghead:

natedog
January 2, 2003, 01:28 PM
I've got an idea- Let's put her in a locked room with several sexual predators, and have someone with a gun right outside ready to come in and intervene. She can call for help anytime she wants. I wonder what would happen......

Oleg Volk
January 2, 2003, 01:37 PM
The person outside will consider the source of the appeal, possible legal consequences, possibility of this being entrapment by enforcers of gun prohibition...and keep on walking. Human lives are worth defending.

Phillip K. Dick has a great story called "Human Is". By the logic shown in it, I would sooner come to the aid of a decent kengaroo or a Martian than some of the folks who would spend their extended lifespan trying to trample over me and my rights.

Kaylee
January 2, 2003, 01:41 PM
This guy has definite issues with people who get ahead in life financially. "Exploiting other people's need for money to make more for yourself"? How ELSE do you make money? HOW ELSE?


Why... by taking it from someone by force for the greater good, of course. Extortion is less selfish than commerce, you know. :)


-K

King
January 2, 2003, 07:18 PM
I've checked those folks out over at Michael Moore's forum and it appears to me that they (the posters) are generally very young (like 15 to 17 years of age and maybe early 20's) and there are a lot of Europeans.

Basically, they operate on emotion and rattle off the anti-gun screed the best way they know how. Unfortunately, they reduce themselves to name calling and to putting down others on a regular basis. They generally do not have the depth of experience that many on this forum do.

Due to their general youth, they don't appear to know "how" to debate or discuss issues concerning guns and the other hot topics of the day (like we do). Many are filled with "piss and vinegar" to coin a phrase and that is as I would expect (having been there myself). Addtionally, the Europeans don't understand Americans or the American way. The European frame of reference is simply different.

I 'll at least applaud them for taking a stance and trying to defend it. As they mature, their views may become more in line with those on this forum. Perhaps not. They would be eaten up by this group.

Just my $.02.....my opinion on this one will be worth exactly what you paid for it.

aikidoka-mks
January 2, 2003, 09:51 PM
All this talk of "debates" has me tempted to bring up the rkba issue on a chicago forum I frequent. Im currently in 2 debates now on other issues so Ive been holding off so as not to stretch myself to thin. I think a few might agree with us though - to bad there arent enough to change illinois :-(

Mark

Drjones
January 10, 2003, 04:18 AM
Drjones, you have learned a valuable lesson of life. 99.9% of everything is black and white, all this "gray area" is just liberal bull to convince all the sheep that anything they say is true. If se if you believe as they say, that everything is gray, they can change at anytime, what they tell the sheep,(and you, if you fall for it) will not question it, even though it might be 180 degrees out of phase from what they just told you last week.

Any thoughts on this?


Any more thoughts on the topic of this thread?

Hkmp5sd
January 10, 2003, 05:39 AM
-Guns are just penis extensions. You only want one to prove you're a "real man"
Some psychiatrists view anyone who sees "the need for a gun" as serving "libidinal purposes...to enhance or repair a damaged self-image....and involving narcissism, passivity and insecurity."

Other shrinks reject this theory because it does not account for female gun ownership. In fact, 50% of those who own a gun only for protection are women, even though women are less likely than men to own guns for sport.

Also noted is that if this theory were accurate, male gun owners would lean toward the largest barrel and bore weapons available. But the uniform popularity of different sized guns debunks this theory.

They also bring up Freud's view that weapons may symbolize the penis in dreams. Actually, Freud said that this is true for dreams involving any long object (sticks, umbrellas, poles, trees) but especially objects that may be viewed as penetrating and injuring. This passage refers to dreams in general without distinguishing gun owners from others.

When talking of weapons specifically, Freud associates retarded sexual and emotional development not with gun ownership, but with fear and loathing of weapons.

-----------------------------------------------
Referrences:
"Guns, Murders and the Constitution" by Don B. Kates Jr.
"The Major Writings of Sigmund Freud" (1952)
"Dreams in Folklore" by Freud and Oppenheim (1958)

BogBabe
January 10, 2003, 06:56 AM
You are absolutely correct in your first post in this thread, Drjones. There is not a single honest, valid study anywhere that supports gun control, from either a practical viewpoint or a moral or ethical one.

I used to be moderately pro-gun control, even while believing that I supported the Second Amendment. I was one of those who believed that yes indeed, the Second Amendment protected our right to bear arms, but there was nothing wrong with "common sense" regulation of who was allowed to own a gun, and various other such laws. I wasn't "afraid" of guns, and I wasn't an anti -- not like the people we've seen on the MM forums. But I had been exposed to so much gun control propaganda, for my entire life, that, prior to doing any research of my own, it was one of those unquestioned beliefs that seemed to make sense.

I remember when I bought my first gun -- back before Brady, before NICS -- I walked into a gun shop, tried out a few, picked one, and filled out a form in which I checked "No" in some boxes stating that I wasn't a criminal or insane. The owner told me the form stayed in his files and the gov't could only see it if the gun was recovered after being used in a crime and the cops were trying to trace its purchase. I walked out with my gun that day, no background check, no NICS call, no nothing. I remember thinking to myself, "They don't verify any of that information on the form -- I could be a convicted criminal and they wouldn't know. Wow, anybody really could get a gun!" I wasn't real comfortable with that.

After becoming a gun owner, though, and having had that experience, I started paying more attention to gun control issues. Remember, I started out supporting "common sense gun control" at the time! But the more I read and researched the issue, the more I became a hard-line gun rights supporter.

Every honest study, every valid study, every bit of empirical evidence, supports an unlimited, individual right to bear arms with no governmental interference whatsoever. Everything from the unyielding ethical argument that everyone has the innate right to possess the most effective means of self-defense, to the purely utilitarian argument that gun control does not keep guns out of the hands of criminals but only disarms law-abiding citizens, supports that position.

Every study that appears to support gun control, OTOH, falls apart when examined. Every one of those studies twists the facts, misrepresents the evidence, and uses highly selective data from artifically narrow populations and time periods to present a factually incorrect perspective. Kellerman's thoroughly debunked study comes to mind. So does the latest "Report Card" from HCI, in which the states that got Ds and Fs for their gun control laws just happen to have the lowest crime rates in the nation, while those with As and Bs just happen to have the worst crime rates. And that stupid study that uses the fatally flawed "Cooke's Index" (do a search on TFL if you don't remember it) to determine that the states with the highest number of guns deaths have the highest number of gun deaths. :rolleyes:

I started out not as a blank slate, not with a totally open mind, but with a moderately pro-gun-control mentality, and every bit of research I found weakened that position.

Every bit of research I found turned me into more of a pro-gun-rights person. Eventually I became what I am today, which is someone who believes that the government at any level has no business passing any laws whatsoever regulating or restricting in any way my right to buy and own any gun I darn well please, at any time.

I am convinced that anyone who is willing to look at the facts -- as opposed to purely emotional reactions and naive wishful thinking -- has to eventually come to believe the same thing. We are right, and they are wrong -- but when we're confronted by the blissninnies at the MM forums who refuse to consider the facts and instead deliberately, obstinately, continue to ignore the evidence and rely on their irrational emotional fears and naive wishful thinking, we're eventually reduced to nothing more than "I'm right and you're wrong."

What can you do with people who willfully ignore the evidence and deny reality? No amount of evidence, facts, or rational arguing will ever reach a closed mind. I think the best we can hope for is to reach the lurkers and fence-sitters who might be truly open to modifying their beliefs when presented with facts and evidence.

ArmsAkimber
January 10, 2003, 08:50 AM
My wife and I used to regularly attend a yearly gathering of her college chums. Two years ago, the gathering took place in the home of two of said chums who married. One is a newspaper editor, one is a novelist. At these gatherings, political discussions are common, and often heated. Most of these people are very liberal (including aformentioned hosts), but there are enough libertarianoid types to keep it interesting (such as moi ;) ). Guns came up, and the typical boring pro/anti arguments were exchanged. The coversation ended when the host stated, "Well, I think handguns should be banned, and we will no longer discuss guns in this house." He did not want his children exposed to gun talk, he said. He didn't have any problem with rather bawdy conversation in the presence of his children later in the evening, though. Needless to say, I don't attend these gatherings in this couple's home any longer.

Is it not ironic that two people who earn their living under the light of the first amendment are so ready to take an eraser to the second. :cuss:

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