Emergency Declared After Anti-Nazi Riots


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mustanger98
October 16, 2005, 12:54 AM
[I don't know whether this is the right forum for this one or not.]

By JOHN SEEWER, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 40 minutes ago

TOLEDO, Ohio - A crowd protesting a white supremacists' march Saturday turned violent, throwing baseball-sized rocks at police, vandalizing vehicles and stores, and setting fire to a neighborhood bar, authorities said.

When Mayor Jack Ford and a local minister tried to calm the rioting, they were cursed for allowing the march, and Ford said a masked gang member threatened to shoot him.

At least 65 people were arrested and several police officers were injured before calm was restored about four hours later.

Ford blamed the rioting on gangs taking advantage of a volatile situation. He declared a state of emergency, set an 8 p.m. curfew through the weekend, and asked the Highway Patrol for help.

"It's exactly what they wanted," Ford said of the group that planned the march, which was canceled because of the rioting.

At least two dozen members of the National Socialist Movement, which calls itself "America's Nazi Party," had gathered at a city park to march under police protection. Organizers said they were demonstrating against black gangs they said were harassing white residents.

The violence broke out about one-quarter of a mile away along the planned march route shortly before it was to begin. One group of men pounded on a convenience store, and others overturned vehicles. There was a report of a shooting but police hadn't found a victim, Police Chief Mike Navarre said.

About 150 police officers chased bands of young men through the area. Officers wearing gas masks fired tear gas canisters and flash-bang devices designed to stun suspects, but the groups continued throwing rocks and bottles. Several officers and firefighters suffered minor injuries, Navarre said. At one point, the crowd reached 600 people, officials said.

Finally, police marched shoulder-to-shoulder down the street shouting to people to stay inside, and the crowd of several hundred broke up.

At least 65 people were arrested on charges including assault, vandalism, failure to obey police and failure to disperse, Navarre said. He said the white supremacists had left hours earlier.

"We frankly could have made a couple hundred arrests easily," Navarre said. "We just didn't have the resources on hand to arrest all of them."

The mayor had appealed to residents the night before to ignore the march. He said the city wouldn't give the Nazi group a permit to march in the streets but couldn't stop them from walking on the sidewalks.

When the rioting began, Ford tried to negotiate with those involved, but "they weren't interested in that." He said people in the crowd swore at him and wanted to know why he was protecting the Nazis.

They were mostly "gang members who had real or imagined grievances and took it as an opportunity to speak in their own way," Ford said.

"I was chagrined that there were obvious mothers and children in the crowd with them," he said.

Thomas Frisch, 76, said a large group of men destroyed the exterior of a gas station next to his home of 30 years.

"A whole big gang started to come in here. Next thing you know, they're jumping on the car. Then they overturned it. Then they started on the building, breaking windows, ripping the bars off," he said.

Louis Ratajski, 86, and his nephew, Terry Rybczynski, left Jim & Lou's Bar as a crowd gathered in front pelting police with rocks and breaking the windows. They climbed down a fire escape from the apartment where Ratajski lived over the bar and only later saw the fire on television.

"I was shaking. I feared for my life." Rybczynski said.

Keith White, a black resident, criticized city officials for allowing the march in the first place.

"They let them come here and expect this not to happen?" said White, 29.

A spokesman for the National Socialist Movement blamed police for losing control of the situation.

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Delmar
October 16, 2005, 12:59 AM
"They were mostly "gang members who had real or imagined grievances and took it as an opportunity to speak in their own way," Ford said."

Gee, I guess the mayor better go down and give them all a "time out":rolleyes:

Standing Wolf
October 16, 2005, 12:59 AM
"I was shaking. I feared for my life." Rybczynski said.

There are times when nothing less than a twelve-bore will suffice.

Alex45ACP
October 16, 2005, 01:00 AM
Animals. :fire:

Everyone has the right to protest no matter how disgusting their views are.

Lupinus
October 16, 2005, 01:03 AM
they were animal's. Many in inner cities are animals I dont care if you are black, white, gray, green, or yellow with purple polka dot's.

If anything images liek that make more peopel go to the side of racisim. Not agianst it.

Freedspeak
October 16, 2005, 01:06 AM
I may not agree with their views, but they have as much right to march as we or anybody else does!!

MikeIsaj
October 16, 2005, 01:20 AM
Reports from several sources say the Nazis were marching to call attention to the problem of black gangs that were threatening white neighborhoods. Now I don't have any more time for Neo Nazis than I have for gangsters of any color but, apparently from what we see today, they have a valid point.

On a related topic, I watched video of an ambulance being pummelled with rocks as it tried to "carefully back out of the area. It was a big box rig on an international truck chassis. The windshield was being targeted and heavily damaged by massive numbers of gang members wearing "colors." Would anyone here have a problem with the ambulance driver using his rig as a weapon against these people who were acting in a manner likely to cause serious bodily injury of death to him. I'm thinking put it in drive and head through the gangsters. It's kinda hard to throw a rock with any accuracy when you are running from a five ton machine chasing you down.

Or am I missing something?

MechAg94
October 16, 2005, 01:55 AM
The complete lack of response by law enforecement is why these things happen. But I don't blame law enforement for that. Their hands are tied. They can't give the resonse that is needed.

45acpSHOOTER
October 16, 2005, 02:08 AM
The Black gangs did a better job at bringing attention to the "problem" than the Nazi's march would have.

Capteddie
October 16, 2005, 02:13 AM
"I hate Illinios Nazis..." Joliet Jake Blues
:evil:

Lupinus
October 16, 2005, 02:18 AM
Actually they were from virginia if I heard correctly o nteh news

Kurush
October 16, 2005, 02:20 AM
At least 65 people were arrested and several police officers were injured before calm was restored about four hours later.

Ford blamed the rioting on gangs taking advantage of a volatile situation. He declared a state of emergency, set an 8 p.m. curfew through the weekend, and asked the Highway Patrol for help.If calm was restored four hours later why declare a state of emergency? Doesn't add up.

Lupinus
October 16, 2005, 02:24 AM
maybe to make sure it stays that way?

El Rojo
October 16, 2005, 02:34 AM
I am sorry, but black America needs to pull their heads out of their butts and stop giving everyone fuel for the fire. I mean, how stupid can you be? "The Nazi's are coming to our neighborhood, so lets trash our neighborhood to show them we don't want them here. I know it is probably mainly a socioeconomic issue, but it sure is hard to stick to the High Road and only focus on economics and not skin color when the vast majority of rioters are black. We need strong black leaders to come out and denounce these actions. They need to come out and say, "The Nazi's have every right to walk down these streets. That does not give us the right to destroy property and assault police officers. Frankly I am ashamed of the way my fellow black American's acted today and they should be ashamed of themselves. They played right into the Nazi's hands." I won't hold my breath on that one.

Capteddie
October 16, 2005, 02:38 AM
Actually they were from virginia if I heard correctly o nteh news

If ya have to explain it, it just isn't as funny :(

c_yeager
October 16, 2005, 03:21 AM
It must be nice when a group that you oposse does everything they can to prove you right. I dont like Nazis, i just wish people would try harder to make it obvious that they are nuts.

71Commander
October 16, 2005, 06:50 AM
It must be nice when a group that you oposse does everything they can to prove you right. I dont like Nazis, i just wish people would try harder to make it obvious that they are nuts.

What's going to be the first thing people remember about this incident? The Nazis or the gang riots? My guess is the riots by poor, inner city blacks.

beerslurpy
October 16, 2005, 06:52 AM
So let me get this straight...

A group of Nazis decides to have a parade and say bad stuff about <insert minority>. Normally, this is below "cute puppies" in terms of newsworthyness.... but...

Rather than simply ignore them, a group of black people gets together to have a riot with looting?!?!?! Now, not only does the parade get on the news, but the message of the Nazis probably seems reasonable and calm headed compared to the rioting.

Geniuses.

telewinz
October 16, 2005, 09:57 AM
The complete lack of response by law enforecement is why these things happen. But I don't blame law enforement for that. Their hands are tied. They can't give the resonse that is needed.Beyond the LE aspect I suspect their is much deeper root cause for this riot. A growing dis-satisfaction among the black community (Katrina?), maybe a repeat of the 60's?

enfield
October 16, 2005, 10:20 AM
Maybe they felt left out after the NO looting and wanted to get their hand in.

Why the state of emergency? To demand federal dollars!

RealGun
October 16, 2005, 10:26 AM
Why the state of emergency?

To allow imposition of a curfew and generally enable LE to do what is necessary to maintain order.

MikeIsaj
October 16, 2005, 10:27 AM
Beyond the LE aspect I suspect their is much deeper root cause for this riot. A growing dis-satisfaction among the black community (Katrina?), maybe a repeat of the 60's?Awwwwww, isn't that cute!

You protest because of a deeper root cause.

You riot because you are a low class, criminal thug, who sees an opportunity to act like an idiot, and you lack the self control and respect for others to resist the urge to act like an animal.

Let's not start making excuses for the thugs.

TrapdoorBilly
October 16, 2005, 10:40 AM
A growing dis-satisfaction among the black community (Katrina?)

Meaning? You make it sound like their was some type of plot against blacks in NO.

Uncle Doj
October 16, 2005, 10:48 AM
Ditto Beerslurpy,
When the Nazis are the sanest group in town then you're in a bloody awful place. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!:banghead:

SaintofKillers
October 16, 2005, 11:00 AM
In other news Neo-Nazi membership soars after blacks riot.


Human garbage just looking for an excuse to riot and cause mayhem. If a black leader were down there doing a protest march there would still be rioting going on, just for a different reason.

The Nazis being there is just an excuse for their animal like behavior. Another chapter in "Everyone else is responsible for my actions."

sctman800
October 16, 2005, 11:12 AM
Nazis "0" Thugs "65" in jail that is. I don't have any use for either group but it seems to me the Nazis certainly proved their point without being arrested or even having to march. Jim.

Powderman
October 16, 2005, 11:21 AM
I grew up in the inner city of Chicago.

I saw first hand the rioting and unrest after Dr. King was killed.

Reports from several sources say the Nazis were marching to call attention to the problem of black gangs that were threatening white neighborhoods. Now I don't have any more time for Neo Nazis than I have for gangsters of any color but, apparently from what we see today, they have a valid point.


You riot because you are a low class, criminal thug, who sees an opportunity to act like an idiot, and you lack the self control and respect for others to resist the urge to act like an animal.

I am one half black and one half Native American, and I will say this about the above quotes:

TRUER WORDS WERE NEVER SPOKEN.

For some reason, it seems that the Black culture has become a culture of professional victimization, the constant wailing and moaning about not having what other people have, living under the constant expectation of being given breaks and handouts.

Instead of espousing and emulating people of color who have made a positive difference, it seems that young Black people want to live "tha thug life"; rolling in high dollar automobiles, imbibing drugs and alcohol and inventing an entire new language that is unintelligible at best.

Learning proper English usage, spelling and pronunciation is a foreign concept. And, what of the role models?

You seldom see young adults trying to emulate Dr. Martin Luther King, undoubtably one of the most excellent exemplars for children and young adults of ANY race to follow. And, what about Dr. Condoleeza Rice? A DOUBLE PhD, a linguist fluent in multiple languages, attaining high office by perseverance, hard work, and simply being the best person for the job?

No; it seems that for a large part, American Black society seems to wait for the first possible opportunity to rob, loot, pillage, rape, kill and destroy!

I am a Native American.

I am also a Black man.

I am ASHAMED of my people. Why, oh why can we not pull ourselves out of the gutter? Why must we prove the stereotypes correct?

WHY CAN'T WE BECOME HUMAN BEINGS, INSTEAD OF RABID ANIMALS??

To those animals rioting in Toledo: I abhor the American Nazi Party. I detest everything they espouse and stand for.

But, under the protections recognized by the Constitution of the United States, they have the unalienable RIGHT to protest peacefully.

And if necessary, I--as a Native American/Black American, would give my life to protect that right.

:cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

OK. Rant off.

Someone tell me why we (Black Americans) can't get with the program? Please?

Mongo the Mutterer
October 16, 2005, 11:34 AM
Someone tell me why we (Black Americans) can't get with the program? Please?Wow.

Powderman, I'm not black, but a black man saved my life.

The problem with "getting with the program" is the "program" part of it. It denotes government. The government (and, to be political, the Democratic party) has enslaved blacks. The shackles were tossed off in 1865, just to be replaced by the shackles of "programs".

I also have a problem with the influences of modern culture (music, movies, etc.) which have glamorized punk thuggary.

Makes me cry, no joke.

fourays2
October 16, 2005, 12:22 PM
Someone tell me why we (Black Americans) can't get with the program? Please?

I don't know, you're going to have to figure that one out for your self. Maybe start with some leaders who aren't race-baiters?

bg
October 16, 2005, 01:05 PM
The violence broke out about one-quarter of a mile away along the planned march route shortly before it was to begin. One group of men pounded on a convenience store, and others overturned vehicles. There was a report of a shooting but police hadn't found a victim, Police Chief Mike Navarre said.

Appears to me the natives went on the warpath before the march even
started. Why there weren't enough LE there is beyond me. One should
realize when anything like this is about to occur, you'd want to be sure
of having ample protection for all. The ones who really got nailed here
where once again Joe Public, just minding his or hers own business..

Interesting the Mayor called the Highway Patrol..Must of got
them confused with Cal's Highway Patrol who go to different states
and attack old people who are armed & simply trying to protect their homes.

QuickDraw
October 16, 2005, 01:32 PM
Where do the thugs get all the rocks?
I looked around on my suburban street and didn't
find any :confused: .
I also looked when I was downtown,no rocks.
You don't suppose their importing assault rocks
do you?:what:

QuickDraw

Mongo the Mutterer
October 16, 2005, 01:52 PM
I thought "rock" was sold. Me bad :o

svtruth
October 16, 2005, 01:58 PM
The city did not allow the march, they denied a permit; and in the end the Nazis did not march.
Also isn't there a little item in the Constitution about peaceable assembly?

trooper
October 16, 2005, 02:19 PM
Anyone know how many rioters and police officers were present? Did the mayor or police chief call for backup from other PD's before the march started?

Over here there'd be police officers all over the city if there was just the slightest possibility that the event might turn violent. A big demonstration about controversial issues usually means that there are a couple thousand cops from all over the state in full riot gear in town, just in case something goes wrong.


Trooper

dracphelan
October 16, 2005, 02:33 PM
Someone tell me why we (Black Americans) can't get with the program? Please?

I'll give you some of the reasons a black woman (PHD in Social Work) gave me in one of my Criminal Justice classes. Welfare programs, though well intentioned, for the longest time encouraged dysfunctional families. Since a large portion of the minority community is poor, it has had a larger effect on the minority community. For the longest time (late 1800s until the 1960s or 70s), if there was an able-bodied man at home, you could not get any sort of aid. So, minority males who were unable to get jobs for various reasons left their families so the family could get food. A couple of generations of this, and it becomes an expectation that men don't stick around. Now, you throw in the glorification of minority people for doing non-cerebral things (sports, music, etc...) and you end up with the "gangsta" culture. You have kids who are convinced that there best way out of the ghetto is through music or sports. Yet, the best way out of poverty is through education.
Take a look at the names (oreo and Uncle Tom) that Condi Rice and Colin Powell are called by minority political leaders, and you see another problem. They denigrate anyone who refuses to play the victim.

rudolf
October 16, 2005, 02:43 PM
Maybe someone in Toledo should have called Louis Farrakhan for help :evil:

beerslurpy
October 16, 2005, 02:51 PM
For the longest time (late 1800s until the 1960s or 70s), if there was an able-bodied man at home, you could not get any sort of aid.

Edited for politeness. You have your dates wrong. From the late 1800s to the 1960s, there were none of these programs and there were no problems with black families missing fathers or having more children then they could support.

The programs and the troubles they cause started in the 1960s with LBJ. Women were given more money the more children they had and if a man stayed in the home to support them, they lost their support.

Art Eatman
October 16, 2005, 03:32 PM
Whoa up, Beerslurpy. Yeah, the dates are off a bit, but that's trivial.

Aid For Dependent Children (AFDC) began in the 1930s as part of FDR's deal. A condition is that the money only goes to a single-parent household. It's not difficult to figure out what ensues when you have this sort of program. those repsonsible for passage of this law, obviously, never heard of the term, "Unintended Consequences".

A part of MLK's message that has been carefully ignored by the Jesse Jacksons and the Al Sharptons is, "Stand on your own hind legs and take personal responsibility for your own well-being." That concept doesn't sit well with the JJs and the white liberals who have defined reality for ALL minorities as being one of dependency on the largesse of others. That definition of reality is given the lie by the accomplishments of the Thomas Sowells and the Condi Rices...

Art

beerslurpy
October 16, 2005, 03:38 PM
Yeah no argument with that. I encourage anyone who can read to check out Jesse Lee Peterson's book Scam. Even if you find yourself disagreeing with parts of it, I think you will overall find it enjoyable.

Hardware
October 16, 2005, 03:46 PM
CNN was reporting that the rioters were breaking windows and kicking in doors on residences, throwing furniture out and torching the buildings. I can only presume that they weren't the homes of high roaders.

So, if riot is ensuing outside your house and your windows are being smashed and someone is kicking at the door at what point do you open fire? I mean it is easy to imagine a lit torch or a molotov cocktail being thrown through an broken window.

Art Eatman
October 16, 2005, 04:01 PM
Hardware, sitting on one's front porch with an extended-mag 870 can be salubrious.

I'm reminded of the story of William Cowper Brann and the KKK, back in the early 1900s. He published a newspaper, "The Iconoclast", and had written some scathing articles about the Klan. They visited his house, one night, intending to burn a cross. He stepped onto his front porch with a double-barrelled 12-gauge, open and with two shells.

"Gentlemen! I'm not given to fisticuffs. (Thoop) I shun violence at all times. (Thoop) But I and my friend here (clack) are quite willing to lead us all in a chorus of "Come to Jesus."

:), Art

Molon Labe
October 16, 2005, 04:10 PM
+1 Powderman. Good post.

Sistema1927
October 16, 2005, 04:45 PM
Yes, Powderman, great post.

dpesec
October 16, 2005, 04:52 PM
powderman perhaps you should write that as an letter to the editor for the Toledo Blade ?

Buck Snort
October 16, 2005, 05:57 PM
I can't BELIEVE that anybody would even faintly suggest that one should open fire on those poor victems of white oppressive racism just because they are EXPRESSING THEMSELVES by rioting, looting, and burning down other peoples homes!! (I gotta be careful here or my tongue will get permanently stuck in my cheek!)

Cosmoline
October 16, 2005, 05:58 PM
If I ever see a neo nazi parade, I'll be hard pressed to avoid getting out my best Mosin, securing a rooftop and blowing their faces through the backs of their heads. Laws aside, nazis have no right to breath air and should be killed on sight. Just because the government can't do it doesn't mean it's not the citizen's obligation.

From the reports I read, the nazis didn't have the guts to march at all. But the counter protestors *thought* they were and that the police were protecting them. Still, I don't really see how trashing their own neighborhood helps matters. Better to use a rifle.

Kurush
October 16, 2005, 06:40 PM
Someone tell me why we (Black Americans) can't get with the program? Please?Because they see it as somebody else's program.

El Rojo
October 16, 2005, 06:45 PM
If I ever see a neo nazi parade, I'll be hard pressed to avoid getting out my best Mosin, securing a rooftop and blowing their faces through the backs of their heads. Laws aside, nazis have no right to breath air and should be killed on sight. Just because the government can't do it doesn't mean it's not the citizen's obligation.

From the reports I read, the nazis didn't have the guts to march at all. But the counter protestors *thought* they were and that the police were protecting them. Still, I don't really see how trashing their own neighborhood helps matters. Better to use a rifle.And does anyone wonder why some people are so afraid of gun owners? Cosmoline, how are you any different than a Nazi? I like to voice my opinions and vote for change, not murder my opponents. I guess that is just me.

telewinz
October 16, 2005, 06:56 PM
Meaning? You make it sound like their was some type of plot against blacks in NO.
Of course not. Just that I feel their may be more to it than a rally of Nazi's and maybe it not a local problem.

beerslurpy
October 16, 2005, 07:05 PM
Modern Nazis have pretty much zero connection to the variety you see in movies. Some assclown decided to post a nazi party manifesto on one of the gunsnet forums. It read like a typical "the federal govt is too big and powerful" speech that might have been popular in the early 90s. A typical democrat will hear this and say "racism and small government! they must be republicans! how terrible!" without really thinking.

This is nice and all, but the nazis were not a party of small government. If you put aside their massacring of the jews, they were actually just a slightly heavier booted version of the FDR years. They were both pro-war, keynsian economics buffs who beleived in a strong central state. Ask anyone in US broadcasting from 1930-1980 if they lived in a free country. Ask the Japanese-Americans in the 40s if they lived in a free country. Ask John Stewart if he lives in a free country. We dont have so much freedom that we can afford to criticise others IMO- thank FDR for that.

Before war broke out between us, America and Germany of the early 20th enjoyed largely friendly relations. Many of the eugenics ideas that Nazis are credited with bringing to ugly fruition originated in the USA. Read the history of Margaret Sanger when she founded Planned Parenthood in the 1920s. Read the "evolution" textbook from the Scopes Monkey Trial. It was not evolution as we know it today- more of like a eugenic cousin to Origin of the Species.

The only reason the nazis are seen as evil is because of the Holocaust. Everything else has been deemed worthy of imitation.

DanS
October 16, 2005, 07:39 PM
I'm curious what would happen if someone sat on there front porch with a shotgun or whatever firearm.

One senario,

Someone enters the yard threatening you, and you discharged that firearm, even a warning shot. You know they (the bad guys) or someone else would call the police and then you would be the new priority maybe having a SWAT team show up in your front yard. After you are disarmed or killed by the police, then the rioters would loot and burn down your home.

I'm not the above would be right or just, but I could see it happening. It might be better to stay inside the house and do your shooting indoors.

Sistema1927
October 16, 2005, 08:07 PM
The only reason the nazis are seen as evil is because of the Holocaust.

Did I really read that?

bg
October 16, 2005, 08:43 PM
Follow up article >
http://www.yahoo.com/_ylh=X3oDMTEybGQxYTN0BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEdGVzdAN2Mjk4BHRtcGwDdjI5OC1jc3M-/s/135784/*http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051016/ap_on_re_us/nazi_march
"They do have a right to walk on the Toledo sidewalks," said Mayor Jack Ford, who at one point confronted leaders of the mob and tried to settle them down.

A gang member in a mask threatened to shoot him, and others cursed him for allowing the march, the mayor said. He said he didn't know if the man who threatened him was actually armed, but he blamed gangs for much of the violence. The march had been called off because of the crowds, and the white supremacists had left
Hmm. The "Nazis" attempt to state their opinion. The gangs threaten the
Mayor. Who's really causing the trouble..
the Nazi group tries to come back, Ford said he would seek a court order to stop them
What about a court order against the gangs ?
"They don't have the right to bring hate to my front yard," said Terrance Anderson, who lives near a bar that was destroyed
Let's see. The "Nazis" wanted to state their opinion, left the area, the
gangs and others go on the warpath injuring Police,Firefighters,
citizens, resulting in costly damages to property, and this guy
blames it on the "Nazis".

What about putting the blame on the knuckleheads who actually DID
the rioting ?

I realize there are two sides to every story, and I didn't post the
opinions of other residents there. It just troubles me to think
that one group is to blame, and maybe so as to the grounds
of the mess, but the only one who says the gangs and others
who started and turned this situation into a dangerous one,
is the Mayor ? How bout the citizens who live in the area ?
Are they so intimidated by these gang scumbags, they won't
also lay blame upon them ?

I suppose it's easy for me to point at the residents living there to
be afraid for their lives and property and blame them for what appears
to me as a one sided recount. But when does one go from living
to surviving in one's own area and what kind of life is that ?

Cosmoline
October 16, 2005, 09:11 PM
And does anyone wonder why some people are so afraid of gun owners? Cosmoline, how are you any different than a Nazi? I like to voice my opinions and vote for change, not murder my opponents. I guess that is just me.

I draw the lines at marching parades of nazis. If I saw such a thing, I would be very hard pressed to avoid exercising my considerable marksmanship skills on their heads. That makes me different from a nazi because I would be KILLING nazis. Not joining them. Of course mass parades of neo nazis down the street are exceedingly rare things. If they ever start taking place up here, it's very likely that the time will have come to take up arms and start making cocktails to greet them. Even if the majority of the people supported the white pride yinyangs, I would still oppose them with every lethal tool and device I could create, killing as many of them as possible. Hitler, after all, was duly elected.

That said, I do not support STATE efforts to impinge on free expression. I am not the state.

dracphelan
October 16, 2005, 09:24 PM
You have your dates wrong. From the late 1800s to the 1960s, there were none of these programs and there were no problems with black families missing fathers or having more children then they could support.

The programs and the troubles they cause started in the 1960s with LBJ. Women were given more money the more children they had and if a man stayed in the home to support them, they lost their support.

Actually, many welfare programs were started (in mainly northeastern states) in the late 1800s. They usually started out as private programs and were then picked up by the states. Federal welfare programs didn't start until the New Deal with FDR in the 1930s. However, you are correct in that the 1960s and Johnson's "War on Poverty" really accelerated the process.

Phyphor
October 16, 2005, 09:28 PM
I draw the lines at marching parades of nazis.

One could replace the Nazis with just about any word, like, say...jews, blacks, whites, mexicans, gays, etc. Now, if they're armed and obviously going to cause trouble, I'd draw the line too. But just being asshats is enough reason to be shot?

If I saw such a thing, I would be very hard pressed to avoid exercising my considerable marksmanship skills on their heads. That makes me different from a nazi because I would be KILLING nazis.

Ok, so you're different from a Nazi because you're killing Nazis. That makes sense. I mean, you're just killing someone for gathering in public and expressing an opinion different from yours. While I tend to revile Nazis, I don't see as to how I'd have a right opening fire on people who aren't actually a physical threat to me. If they were being too disruptive, it'd be a matter for law enforcement. Now, if they were actually presenting a danger to me and mine, then they'd be eating lead. But walking down the street shouting hate propaganda really isn't death-penalty material.

Not joining them. Of course mass parades of neo nazis down the street are exceedingly rare things. If they ever started taking place up here, it's very likely that the time will have come to take up arms and start making cocktails to greet them.


No, it's more likely the time will have come for another Waco type incident, complete with "good" press for the Neo Nazis. (I.E. the media would probably show that they were unarmed, and all of a sudden, a gun-nut opened fire on an unarmed crowd, which would then cause law-enforcement to have to 'deal' with you and any with you. )



Even if the majority of the people supported the white pride yinyangs, I would still oppose them with every lethal tool and device I could create, killing as many of them as possible.

While their words ARE hateful, that's all they are, for now. WORDS. If you'd shoot a man down, no matter how stupid and deserving, merely for words, then I think you need to rethink just what firearms are for.

That said, I do not support STATE efforts to impinge on free expression. I am not the state.

No, you just act much like them, except you didn't have anyone vote you into the position of decency enforcement (for lack of a better term.

rudolf
October 16, 2005, 09:32 PM
The only reason the nazis are seen as evil is because of the Holocaust. Everything else has been deemed worthy of imitation.

They killed the disabled folks of their own race.
The burned down parts of russia, raped and killed millions of civilians.
The had a secret police that collected political foes to kill them.
They sank ships with civilians (USA included).

Just to name a few.

I'm German. I'm so glad the US and the others let me live a life without the Nazis. Believe me.

Cosmoline
October 16, 2005, 09:36 PM
One could replace the Nazis with just about any word, like, say...jews, blacks, whites, mexicans, gays, etc. Now, if they're armed and obviously going to cause trouble, I'd draw the line too. But just being asshats is enough reason to be shot?


No, one could not. Because only nazis are nazis. Nazis are the incarnation of absolute evil, and must die.

That makes sense. I mean, you're just killing someone for gathering in public and expressing an opinion different from yours. While I tend to revile Nazis, I don't see as to how I'd have a right opening fire on people who aren't actually a physical threat to me.

No, I would be killing them for being nazis marching in my neighborhood. In my world, that carries the death sentence. Nazis by their nature are a threat to me personally. In a large marching group they are a threat to everything I hold dear. It would be my responsibility not merely to stop them but to slaughter them. And it would be the best day's work I'd ever done.

, it's more likely the time will have come for another Waco type incident

I AM NOT THE STATE. What part of that are you missing?

Am I dangerous? To nazis, yes. If I had warning of a march I would probably make a point of leaving town to avoid a long prison term. I hate them worse than antis, worse than Californians, worse than poison. THEY MUST DIE.

El Rojo
October 16, 2005, 10:08 PM
Ok Cosmoline, here is my last effort to turn you away from being a raving, psychotic, lunatic. Take everything you said above and replace the "Nazis" with "Jews". How would you sound any different than a Nazi? I mean if you think about it, those Jews killed Jesus and wanted the Christians dead for trying to spread something counter to what they believed. How would it possibly be any different for a Nazi to not have the same moral justification to kill you? How would it be any different from a Palastinian or any other Muslim from justifying taking out Jews?

The war is over Cosmoline. Relax. You are not Rambo. You don't have to go on your own little Nazi rampage. Better yet, talk is pretty cheap. You talk a mean game, but can you walk the walk? Prove to us how bad you are. There are obviously Nazis out there in the world, why are you allowing them to live? Go down to Virginia and take them out. If I don't see you in the news in the next two weeks, we will know where you really stand.

It is time to put up or shut up Cosmoline. You talk a mean Internet game, but do you really have the stones to shoot unarmed Nazis in the streets? I will be watching the news and waiting. Until then, you are nothing more than talk, and not very High Road at that. :scrutiny:

Jackthelad
October 16, 2005, 10:11 PM
Cosmoline, you wrote-

"If I ever see a neo nazi parade, I'll be hard pressed to avoid getting out my best Mosin, securing a rooftop and blowing their faces through the backs of their heads. Laws aside, nazis have no right to breath air and should be killed on sight. Just because the government can't do it doesn't mean it's not the citizen's obligation. "

- Hardly The High Road. I may not agree with someone's opinion, ideology, or perspective, but that way of handling things will do wonders for the
Anti gun folks. What else about other people brings out those feelings in you? Their accents? Clothes? Political affiliation? Unfortunately, statements like yours are fodder for the DU folks and will be sure to show up on a thread over there, to justify their anti gun feelings.

junyo
October 16, 2005, 10:14 PM
I'm gratified that the members are able to analyze, diagnose, and pronounce judgment on an entire community on the basis on the actions of relatively small group of people. And not only has the problem been solved, it's been declared a rational basis for racism:
If anything images liek that make more peopel go to the side of racisim. Not agianst it.
---
Now I don't have any more time for Neo Nazis than I have for gangsters of any color but, apparently from what we see today, they have a valid point.
---
I am sorry, but black America needs to pull their heads out of their butts and stop giving everyone fuel for the fire.What black America needs, if I may, is for the vast majority of law abidding, hard working members of that community to stop being held responsible for every action of a criminal minority, and prejudged for their actions. White folks get their panties in a twist when people bring up bad actions prepetrated by their ancestors or their contemporaries with an almost universal refrain of "But I didn't do it/own it/say it!" Yet some fools riot, and "black America" needs to respond? This part of black America was 500 miles away, shot a round of clays that morning and then watched "Jeeves and Wooster" videos with his girlfriend - how is this vaguely my problem? Why do black leaders need to do something about it? "Black leaders" are mostly people that white America appoints as spokemen so that they can deal with black America as a political abstraction rather than facing the reality that there is no "black America"- there are Americans who happen to be black, with just as many different upbringings, opinions ,and motivations as the rest of society.

But because despite not having anything to do with it, some Americans will still use this (and many other incidents to come) as an excuse to treat millions of innocents differently than they treat their own. To lump ordinary and exemplary citizens in with thugs because of the simple commonality of skin color. And then wonder where the anger comes from... :rolleyes:

Kjervin
October 16, 2005, 10:23 PM
I bet if Neo-nazis started gettting shot up everytime they had a rally, they would change their PR focus. I thik many people see them as an exception because they are a party which historically had genocide as an agenda item. I think if I were ever to have a ND, a Nazi (or Klan for that matter) rally might be a good place to have a couple of dozen. At least you wouldn't have to worry about any Human Beings being injured. Oops.

Kj

Phyphor
October 16, 2005, 10:25 PM
No, one could not. Because only nazis are nazis. Nazis are the incarnation of absolute evil, and must die.
I tend to agree, HOWEVER, there's a time and a place for croaking them. Shooting them down on your street while they're peacibly assembling isn't it.


No, I would be killing them for being nazis marching in my neighborhood. In my world, that carries the death sentence.
The problem is, while many agree with that, to the law, shooting an unarmed man in cold blood is considered murder, no matter what his politics or beliefs are.


Nazis by their nature are a threat to me personally. In a large marching group they are a threat to everything I hold dear. It would be my responsibility not merely to stop them but to slaughter them. And it would be the best day's work I'd ever done.

And likely the last. You do realize that if you did start popping Nazis that were just parading and shouting their crap, you'd be painted as the bad guy. That is, after the cops rolled your place, and either arrested or killed you. Or did you imagine that they'd pin a medal on you?



I AM NOT THE STATE. What part of that are you missing?
Not one bit.
Am I dangerous? To nazis, yes. If I had warning of a march I would probably make a point of leaving town to avoid a long prison term.

There's where we really disagree... I'd stay home, locked and loaded, in case of trouble. But as long as they didn't start raping and pillaging, I'd let them pass. I don't like their way of thinking, but I'm not going to indulge in anything that even seems akin to it.

I hate them worse than antis, worse than Californians, worse than poison. THEY MUST DIE.

If they don't change their ways, odds are, they will. Being an organization like that isn't conducive to long life.

Cosmoline
October 16, 2005, 10:41 PM
The problem is, while many agree with that, to the law, shooting an unarmed man in cold blood is considered murder, no matter what his politics or beliefs are.

Obviously that's what the law says. I'm not arguing that point. I would not be interested in a medal, I'd be interesting in killing nazi pigs. There comes a time when you must set aside the law and societal norms and just kill nazis.

Hardly The High Road. I may not agree with someone's opinion, ideology, or perspective, but that way of handling things will do wonders for the Anti gun folks.

Antis, and even Californians get the high road from me. Nazis do not.

What else about other people brings out those feelings in you? Their accents? Clothes? Political affiliation? Unfortunately, statements like yours are fodder for the DU folks and will be sure to show up on a thread over there, to justify their anti gun feelings.

The idiots on the DU have no reason to fear my firearms unless they are nazis parading on my streets. Then I reserve the right to kill them. Nazis do not deserve my consideration or tolerance. They must die. Nazis should fear me, because I want to kill them and have the power to do so. To alleviate the situation they need to stop being nazis. If they refuse to do that they need to stay away from me if they want to live. One of the basic reasons I keep firearms is to ensure that nazis will never come to power here. I think that's a perfectly acceptable reason for keeping them.

Kurush
October 16, 2005, 10:54 PM
The only reason the nazis are seen as evil is because of the Holocaust. Everything else has been deemed worthy of imitation.The only reason Jeffery Dahmer is seen as evil is because he killed people and ate them. Other than that he was a pretty nice guy.

atek3
October 16, 2005, 10:57 PM
The idiots on the DU have no reason to fear my firearms unless they are Atheists parading on my streets. Then I reserve the right to kill them. Atheists do not deserve my consideration or tolerance. They must die. Atheists should fear me, because I want to kill them and have the power to do so. To alleviate the situation they need to stop being Atheists. If they refuse to do that they need to stay away from me if they want to live. One of the basic reasons I keep firearms is to ensure that Atheists will never come to power here. I think that's a perfectly acceptable reason for keeping them.

does peoples' shock at your post seem any clearer now?

atek3

Cosmoline
October 16, 2005, 11:07 PM
No. I was talking about NAZIS not atheists. If you don't know the difference, you need to review your 20th century history.

And please stop screwing with my quotes. It's very very bad form.

captain obvious
October 16, 2005, 11:12 PM
The idiots on the DU have no reason to fear my firearms unless they are nazis parading on my streets. Then I reserve the right to kill them. Nazis do not deserve my consideration or tolerance. They must die. Nazis should fear me, because I want to kill them and have the power to do so. To alleviate the situation they need to stop being nazis. If they refuse to do that they need to stay away from me if they want to live. One of the basic reasons I keep firearms is to ensure that nazis will never come to power here. I think that's a perfectly acceptable reason for keeping them.

Wow.


Cosmoline - I never thought that THR senior member would scare me enough to spend more on self defense, but I think you just did it.

What people think and how people act are two different things. If someone wants to be a nazi, I don't care, so long as they do not harm anyone else.

If they do though, there's more than one reason why I have an Garand.

Cosmoline
October 16, 2005, 11:25 PM
Let me be clear, I am not saying I'd go out and kill nazis as they stand now. They're around here, and I keep tabs on them. But they're harmless fools. If, however, they managed to start staging mass marches in an effort to take over local government then yes, I would consider it my duty to raise the black flag. I guess that's the difference between those who sat by in the 1930's and watched it happen and the few who tried to do something about it. I know which side I'll be on. True nazi ideology is anathema to the United States, and by definition their ascent to power would be contrary to everything the nation stands for. Would you sit by and watch the jackboots march?

What people think and how people act are two different things. If someone wants to be a nazi, I don't care, so long as they do not harm anyone else.

I agree. But a large body of nazis marching in my neighborhood is an ACTION, not a THOUGHT. For nazis such an action means only one thing--WE ARE TAKING OVER.

Phyphor
October 16, 2005, 11:26 PM
nobody tries to do WW2 reenactments near Cosmoline's place :neener:

atek3
October 16, 2005, 11:35 PM
And please stop screwing with my quotes. It's very very bad form.

Better?


Nazis are the incarnation of absolute evil, and must die.

It would be my responsibility not merely to stop them but to slaughter them. And it would be the best day's work I'd ever done.

THEY MUST DIE.


Wow, would you like a clean rag, I think you've got a little bit of foam showing at the corner of the mouth.

atek3

Art Eatman
October 16, 2005, 11:38 PM
Cosmoline, relax. I think your comment, "If, however, they managed to start staging mass marches in an effort to take over local government..." has an unspoken point: I really doubt there will ever be a "mass" march of Nazis. The news said that in Toledo, twelve showed up.

If the best that can be done after sixty years of ranting and raving is to have twelve idiots show up, I really doubt there's much reason for concern.

Hey, by 2065, they might be all the way up to twenty-four. At that time, you have my blessing.

:D, Art

Jackthelad
October 16, 2005, 11:43 PM
Here Here Cosmo. We agree on something. If a large group of elephants were marching in my neighborhood, that would be an action. I would gear up, Nagant a blazing. 20 guys dressed up like busboys with armbands doesn't bother me.

Cosmoline
October 16, 2005, 11:47 PM
Cosmoline, relax. I think your comment, "If, however, they managed to start staging mass marches in an effort to take over local government..." has an unspoken point: I really doubt there will ever be a "mass" march of Nazis. The news said that in Toledo, twelve showed up.


Exactly. It's all hypothetical because the neo nazis are a total joke. My point was I could understand the rage of some of the locals there, though I don't quite understand how that dovetails into trashing a perfectly innocent gas station. Maybe you had to be there.

Art Eatman
October 16, 2005, 11:47 PM
junyo said:

"What black America needs, if I may, is for the vast majority of law abiding, hard working members of that community to stop being held responsible for every action of a criminal minority, and prejudged for their actions."

Yeah, 100% correct. I've been watching that with some degree of adult understanding for over forty years. I don't really have any answer.

But, I've watched the politics of racial issues for that long a time, as well. Just as with gun owners in the fight against idiotic control laws, all I can see to do is for the "law abiding, hard working" AND POLITICALLY CONSERVATIVE people to gain positions of leadership in those organizations which purport to speak for the entire group. I don't see how that can come to pass, however, desirable though it is. So far, the media is winning.

Art

GunGoBoom
October 17, 2005, 02:10 AM
When the rioting began, Ford tried to negotiate with those involved, but "they weren't interested in that."

Rioters NOT interested in negotiating a peace - no kiddin'?

junyo, great post - here, here! (or is it "hear, hear"?)

El Rojo
October 17, 2005, 02:51 AM
This part of black America was 500 miles away, shot a round of clays that morning and then watched "Jeeves and Wooster" videos with his girlfriend - how is this vaguely my problem?You said it yourself, you are not black America. You are American. So it is not your problem. However, there are plenty of black Americans who are black Americans who like to get their panties in an uproar when William Bennett says aborting black babies is impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible. That black America follows their leaders without fail and continues to be victims of society and they continue to riot and loot when ever they get a chance. Maybe someday they will just be plain old Americans, but right now, they continue to claim the title of "black America" and follow their "black leaders" down the continued path of slavery. So yeah, my statement stands, black America needs to pull their heads out. Has anyone heard Jesse, Louis, or Al denounce these riots and call for their people to act like responsible adults? Of course not.

Master Blaster
October 17, 2005, 10:49 AM
Take everything you said above and replace the "Nazis" with "Jews". How would you sound any different than a Nazi? I mean if you think about it, those Jews killed Jesus and wanted the Christians dead for trying to spread something counter to what they believed.

And when did the Jews riot or march or herd millions of Christians and Muslums into camps and exterminate them, I must have missed it while I was in Hebrew school?????
I know they fed Christians to the Lions in the colusseum, and then they burned them at the stake during the Inquisition, Oh wait that was Romans and Good Catholics who did that, and Nazis, none of whom were Jewish.

But hey whats a good Nazi thread without a pointless attack on Jews everywhere.:)

Beren
October 17, 2005, 10:59 AM
If any of the "Nazis" who tried to march had anything to do with the Holocust, please let Israel know so they can make arrangements. Otherwise, targeting them for murder based solely on their political affiliation is contrary to the principles of this country. I wouldn't walk across the street to pee on a Nazi wannabe if he or she were on fire, but I wouldn't go out of my way to keep one from talking, either.

I'd ignore them and go on my way.

Being free to peacefully assemble and express political views, regardless of how repugnant they are, are liberties guarenteed to all Americans.

CAS700850
October 17, 2005, 11:11 AM
Once upon a time, the Klan wanted to demonstrate here in my work community. Law enforcement set up for riot conditions. Snipers on the rooftops. Ready for hundreds of counter-protesters.

About 50 Klan types and another 20 or so skin-heads showed up. About 10 or 15 people showed up otherwise. Turns out a professor at the nearby community college spread the word that the best way to address the idiots was to not address the idiots, and people actually listened. Rally was over in about an hour (though it was scheduled for three). Never came back.

If you ignore them, they get bored and go away. They want the attention. they want the violence. They want the confrontation, the riots, etc. It's free publicity.

Kjervin
October 17, 2005, 01:40 PM
El Rojo,
I believe the point that he was trying to make was that those rioters are no more representative of "Black America" then the Nazis are of "White America". The so called "Black Leaders" are not followed by the majority of black people and have credibility only because lazy media producers call them by default to get the "Black Prospective" instead of doing actual polling or even talking to black elected officials (liberal and conservative) or just the man on the street. Remember after the Presidents speech when ABC news went to some black people outside the Superdome (or astrodome or somethingdome) and they got surprised when they said positive things about the President, blamed Mayor Nagin and took responsibility for not getting out of NO sooner? Not blindly following the "Black Leaders" huh? But guess what? the media almost never talks to middle class black people at all, just the usual suspects (so called "Black Leaders") and hoodrats. They are selected for being controversial not for being representative. Are we also to believe that the shirtless trailer dwellers on COPS are "White America" and Ted Kennedy and David Dukes "White Leaders"?

Kj

svtruth
October 17, 2005, 04:23 PM
When I was a freshman at Kenyon college (1965-66) in central Ohio another frosh, a local guy, was moderately pro KKK because of their opposition to the Catholic church influencing the public schools.
Anyway he said Klu Klux Klan was based on the sound of a round being chambered in a rifle. Don't know if he meant pump or lever gun.
Or if it is even possible or even true.
Any ideas?

El Rojo
October 17, 2005, 04:35 PM
They are selected for being controversial not for being representative. Are we also to believe that the shirtless trailer dwellers on COPS are "White America" and Ted Kennedy and David Dukes "White Leaders"?That is a good way to look at it I suppose. However, I still don't know if I buy into this black America isn't all listening and following the leaders I mistakenly thought were leaders. Race is a strong bond within the black community. Just last week we were looking at the William Bennett comments in my class and a few black students just couldn't accept anything other than what he said was wrong. Then again, there were a few who seemed to get it.

I guess what I am looking for is another Martin Luther to come and take control of this mess and lead his people to freedom, not more of the same.

TheEgg
October 17, 2005, 05:51 PM
If I ever see a neo nazi parade, I'll be hard pressed to avoid getting out my best Mosin, securing a rooftop and blowing their faces through the backs of their heads. Laws aside, nazis have no right to breath air and should be killed on sight. Just because the government can't do it doesn't mean it's not the citizen's obligation.

Hey Cosmoline, the dry-cleaners called, your Brown Shirt is ready. The SA has made you an honorary member. They applaud your deep understanding of the need for citizens to take action against undersirables. They only disagree with you over who the 'undesirables' are.


And when did the Jews riot or march or herd millions of Christians and Muslums into camps and exterminate them, I must have missed it while I was in Hebrew school?????

According to lots of Arab sources, Jews have done much the same to the innocent Muslims of the world (including the always popular blood libel). And, sadly, there are millions of Arabs who believe it.

STAGE 2
October 17, 2005, 10:18 PM
All of this is bogus. From a constitutional perspective, there isn't ANY freedom that is absolute. Denying these skinheaded, swastika wearing, dirtbags the freedom of pubic assembly is well within the confines of the first amendment. If they want to sit around and heil hitler within the confines of their basements then fine, just don't do it on mainstreet usa.

I'm all for free speech, stupid speech, hateful speech and just about any speech that the constitution allows. However, my granddad didn't kick ass at normandy some 60 years ago just so some snotty ACLU attorney can give a wannabe adolf his 15 minutes of fame.

Powderman
October 17, 2005, 10:36 PM
All of this is bogus. From a constitutional perspective, there isn't ANY freedom that is absolute. Denying these skinheaded, swastika wearing, dirtbags the freedom of pubic assembly is well within the confines of the first amendment. If they want to sit around and heil hitler within the confines of their basements then fine, just don't do it on mainstreet usa.

I'm all for free speech, stupid speech, hateful speech and just about any speech that the constitution allows. However, my granddad didn't kick ass at normandy some 60 years ago just so some snotty ACLU attorney can give a wannabe adolf his 15 minutes of fame.

On the contrary--

that is EXACTLY why your grandfather went to Normandy. That's why Americans have fought, bled and died over the years--so that ANYONE within the borders of our Nation can freely speak their mind, and speak their view--freely, without fear and without hesitation.

Is Naziism desireable? Absolutely not! Is racism the way to go? No, no, a thousand times, NO!

But our forefathers had the presence of mind to try to ensure that people had the freedom to speak freely. As Americans, we must respect that right. We must uphold that right--or we become no better then the hatemongers are.

QuickDraw
October 17, 2005, 10:44 PM
"I hate them worse than antis, worse than Californians, worse than poison. THEY MUST DIE."

Crimanny!!
Don't shoot,I'm one of the good guys!
I'm guilty for the state I live in?!
Blind hatred is never a good thing.

QuickDraw

Ryder
October 17, 2005, 11:08 PM
it is easy to imagine a lit torch or a molotov cocktail being thrown through an broken window

A lot less of them are going to die if they don't flush me out.

Saw TV news on this tonight. Security video of a store. People rushing in through the front door to loot it. Looked the dam busted. Never saw such an insane flood of people in my life! Definately 40 round mag material.

They also interviewed the person who all of this started over. Seems he has a dispute with his neighbor about a fence. Guy was sitting on his front porch and claimed to have nothing to do with the nazis. He isn't worried either. Reporter asked why not and he just reached inside his coat, appearing to grab a pistol grip and said I have something right here. Reporter asked "whatcha got in there". Haha, guy says "A 357 magnum and it's loaded for bear".

Gee, I wonder why they aren't messing around with him?

confed sailor
October 17, 2005, 11:20 PM
Here Here Cosmo. We agree on something. If a large group of elephants were marching in my neighborhood, that would be an action. I would gear up, Nagant a blazing. 20 guys dressed up like busboys with armbands doesn't bother me.

Just a Nagant revolver for elephants? You sir are braver than I.

Cosmo, thank god you are in alaska.

And as we have made our point before, The ideology of the NASDAP is abhorrent, BUT even nuts have the right to free speach. I personally used to feel like Cosmo, elimination of enemies of the "Der Stadt" and such, but when i stopped and thought; unkinked my logic processes, and thought about my beliefs, it sank in, I was no better than they. In my self-rightous blinders I had allowed myself to sink to their level; rendering my opinions as constitutionally worthless as theirs. They have a right, a first amendment right, to voice their opinion, if you dont like it voice your own, this is a Republic after all.
Chief Justice Oliver W. Holmes of the SCUSA once said that a shout of fire in a crowded theater is not free speech. This enters a murky world of what is free-speech and what is sedition. and only cool collected consideration of the situation will keep us from straying into a censureship of our own. When the Neo-Nazi's take up arms against my constitution, the one I swore a most solemn oath to protect and defend, then its open season. Till then, let them march about and show us just how silly they are, as our jackbooted countrymen trivalize themselves.

longeyes
October 17, 2005, 11:42 PM
There was no march, what there was an excuse for general mayhem by people who live off violence. There are an estimated million gang members in America today. Result: you can expect more "Nazis," especially if we continue to get apologists for inexcusable behavior. Thugs beget thugs. Supposedly this was a mixed neighborhood--who gave a pack of black hoodlums total say over when goes down in the neighborhood? Tribal dictatorship--is that the coming rule in Toledo? And what's the real story about whites being harassed there? Anyone care?

I hear the politicos are offering a "listening session." How sweet. Scant consolation for the terrorized.

STAGE 2
October 17, 2005, 11:47 PM
On the contrary--

that is EXACTLY why your grandfather went to Normandy. That's why Americans have fought, bled and died over the years--so that ANYONE within the borders of our Nation can freely speak their mind, and speak their view--freely, without fear and without hesitation.



No dice. There is a limit to freely speak one's mind. You cant encourage treason or give aid and comfort to our enemies. Nazi's were at one time, and still should be considered, the enemies of America. As such, they should not be afforded any protections under the constitution. If these social rejects want to reform under a different name and spout the same innane drivel fine. However it's not constitutionally beyond the power of local officials to deny demonstration permits to any organization with the word Nazi in it.

Am I picking at nits... well sort of. But this is an issue worth picking at. I can guarantee you that if a bunch of American born Muslims got together and formed the "American Al-quaeda Party" and wanted to march whereever you wouldn't believe the social pressure to deny them any first amendment rights.

The only difference between that situation and what happened in Ohio is that people have become desensitized by the passage of time. In the eyes of todays generation, an arab terrorist who flys planes into buildings is much more dangerous than the guys who Indiana Jones is constantly fighting.

Evil is evil and it doesn't have any place within this country whether it wears knee high boots and an iron cross or an Ak and a head scarf.

longeyes
October 17, 2005, 11:52 PM
I hate to break the news, but a whole lot of people "out there" think that those of us on this forum, because we believe in gun ownership, are "Nazis."

Onslaught
October 18, 2005, 12:10 AM
Oh come on fellas, what's not to love about the Kukoo Klutz Klan? I mean, they've got those catchy rhymes that they use to entice and indoctrinate the junior high drop outs and other white members of higher society...

KKK - all the way

Save our land, join the Klan

It's like Mother Goose for the under-educated!

It's true, I was BORN in the South, but I went to college (twice) so I'm definitely NOT "Confederate by birth", and the South will most definitely NOT "rise again". :neener:

Cosmoline
October 18, 2005, 12:20 AM
"I hate them worse than antis, worse than Californians, worse than poison. THEY MUST DIE."

Crimanny!!
Don't shoot,I'm one of the good guys!
I'm guilty for the state I live in?!
Blind hatred is never a good thing.

QuickDraw

I grew up in Oregon. 'Nuff said :D

Cosmo, thank god you are in alaska.

Yes, it's probably for the best. I'm no longer entirely civilized. I lived for two years with no plumbing at all and weekly baths. For some odd reasons all my relatives stopped visiting me.

Hey Cosmoline, the dry-cleaners called, your Brown Shirt is ready. The SA has made you an honorary member. They applaud your deep understanding of the need for citizens to take action against undersirables. They only disagree with you over who the 'undesirables' are.

They agree with me that they need to die? Excellent!

Phyphor
October 18, 2005, 12:41 AM
"I hate them worse than antis, worse than Californians, worse than poison. THEY MUST DIE."

Crimanny!!
Don't shoot,I'm one of the good guys!
I'm guilty for the state I live in?!

So am I!


Blind hatred is never a good thing.

QuickDraw

Yer damned right, my brother!

Dragun
October 18, 2005, 01:11 AM
Unbelievable! I might expect this from a 12 year old, but not an adult (especially a gun owner). Just what the anti's need to hear. One man talking out of his backside, without thinking about what he is saying, making all responsible American gun owners look like insane murdering lunatics. i just wanted to throw up after reading these posts:

Quote:
If I ever see a neo nazi parade, I'll be hard pressed to avoid getting out my best Mosin, securing a rooftop and blowing their faces through the backs of their heads. Laws aside, nazis have no right to breath air and should be killed on sight. Just because the government can't do it doesn't mean it's not the citizen's obligation.

If they ever start taking place up here, it's very likely that the time will have come to take up arms and start making cocktails to greet them. Even if the majority of the people supported the white pride yinyangs, I would still oppose them with every lethal tool and device I could create, killing as many of them as possible.

I would be killing them for being nazis marching in my neighborhood. In my world, that carries the death sentence. Nazis by their nature are a threat to me personally. In a large marching group they are a threat to everything I hold dear. It would be my responsibility not merely to stop them but to slaughter them. And it would be the best day's work I'd ever done.

Obviously that's what the law says. I'm not arguing that point. I would not be interested in a medal, I'd be interesting in killing nazi pigs. There comes a time when you must set aside the law and societal norms and just kill nazis.

The idiots on the DU have no reason to fear my firearms unless they are nazis parading on my streets. Then I reserve the right to kill them. Nazis do not deserve my consideration or tolerance. They must die. Nazis should fear me, because I want to kill them and have the power to do so. To alleviate the situation they need to stop being nazis. If they refuse to do that they need to stay away from me if they want to live. One of the basic reasons I keep firearms is to ensure that nazis will never come to power here. I think that's a perfectly acceptable reason for keeping them.

Post a reply if you like, but i won't be able to read it, as you are now one of only two ppl on my ingore list. This is supposed to be the "High Road", where "good, upstanding, and responsible" people read and post. I find it hard to believe the Mods let this go on and on like it did.
:confused:

Art Eatman
October 18, 2005, 01:29 AM
Best thing to do with the Nazis and the Klan is to let them march. Let them prove by their own actions and words just how foolish and immature they really are. And think how spooky it would be to do your march if there were not a sound from anybody along the way...

"I'm a fat old southern sheriff,
and my wife says I'm impotent;
and I've got to where I just don't give a dam.

But I feel so high and mighty,
in my pointed cap and nighty;
I'm so glad I got the chance to join the Klan.

Chorus:

Join the Klan, join the Klan,
It's a new and easy way to be a ma-haa-han;
Whaddaya say, join the KKK."

(Mike Williams, I think. Folksinger. Ca 1968-ish.)

Remember one idea if you ever see a Klan march: Do as I did in 1959 in Tallahasse, Florida, calling out as all ten of the cretins marched past, "Hey! Look at the form-fitting hats!"

Nazis? Google up the words to Charlie Chaplin's "In The Fuhrer's Face". (Dunno the exact, real title.) It involves a loud "Braaack!" sound, tongue sticking out a bit, blowing under it...

:), Art

Cosmoline
October 18, 2005, 01:39 AM
I'm sure you're right, Art. I just need to get out of town if they ever do.

As it stands now, they're around here but there aren't many of them and they keep a low profile. As long as that's the way it stands I'll live and let live.

junyo
October 18, 2005, 08:42 AM
This post is in no way intended to justify anyone's actions. It is intended to inject more facts into the discussion. I'll add links for the quotes after work.

In the days leading up to a white supremacist march, ministers pleaded with residents to stay calm and community leaders organized peace rallies.http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1221169

Ms. Moore said the NAACP is urging black youths to not even dignify the group's event.

"I have already talked with some of the members of the religious community and the regional director of the Ohio Civil Rights Commission and we will be doing something proactive so this doesn't turn into some kind of race war," she said.http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051006/NEWS16/510060396

Race relations in LaGrange had been tense recently. African-Americans had moved into the historically Polish neighborhood north of downtown Toledo for years without much visible tension. Last year, however, when organizers of the annual Polish Fest required that minors be accompanied by parents, many people noticed that only black kids were turned away while white kids were allowed in by themselves. It was an incident that still upsets many local African-Americans, says Toledo City Councilman Frank Szollosi. This summer, an argument over gang activity erupted when LaGrange resident Thomas Szych, who is white, complained that local African-American children were dealing drugs and made hundreds of calls of complaints to local police. In interviews with Toledo media, Szych described two African-American police officers as "gorillas with guns." But the police found little evidence of gangs in the neighborhood.

Many in LaGrange, including members of the police, now believe Szych may have had something to do with the Roanoke Nazis deciding to visit Toledo. Szych denies any involvement. But soon after the police cordon began pushing back against the Saturday crowds, sending mobs of people through the neighborhood, one of the first buildings attacked was Szych's house, about three blocks away. Rocks and bricks were hurled through the windows and Szych appeared on his porch, firing warning shots into the air, according to news reports by the Toledo Blade.

The release gave this information, it said, "uniformed members of the National Socialist Movement will march through a gang ridden North Toledo neighborhood October 15th in brown shirts and swastikas and challenge two local black gangs that have made racial threats against white residents to come out and stop them."

Toledo Police Chief Mike Navarre said in a news conference addressing the release that they are well aware of the gang problem in Toledo. He also described the complaints of gang activity in the Bronson Street area as "exaggerated."

Over on Bronson Avenue, John Szych had just spent 40 minutes telling a Blade reporter that he held the neo-Nazis in contempt for the way he and his son, Thomas Szych, felt they had been used by them.

Yes, the Szychs had an ongoing feud with reputed gang members in North Toledo. But Mr. Szych was emphatic that he in no way encouraged the neo-Nazis to intervene and gather here on their behalf.

Around 11:55 a.m., everyone in the neighborhood heard the same thing: A loud boom.

Police had just fired the first of what eventually would become a countless number of tear gas canisters deployed on Mulberry Street to break up hostile mobs.
---
"I ain't takin' this," he fumed, making a beeline for a back room where he said he had been storing a handgun. He returned to the porch, which by then had been trashed by the mob, and fired six warning shots.

"You want more?" he yelled.
---
At one point, a white passer-by sneered as the melee gained momentum.

"Got what you wanted, John?" asked the man, who refused to give his name.
---
Three or four neighbors came over while Mr. Szych was being interviewed, backing up what he said about past violence.

Those who gathered on Mr. Szych's lawn prior to yesterday's riots claimed the problems go beyond reputed gang activity. They said there has been prostitution, break-ins, graffiti involving racial slurs, and daylight beatings and robberies of women.
---
Mr. Szych said he has had absolutely no contact with the neo-Nazis and is willing to do whatever it takes to prove it to authorities. He said he has offered to let the FBI examine his telephone records and his computer.

He said he met privately with area preachers at the Erase the Hate event at the Zablocki Center on Lagrange Street.

"I explicitly told them this was not our doing," he said.

XLMiguel
October 18, 2005, 10:32 AM
Amurrican Nazis are a bunch of strange ducks. When I was living in Chicago in the mid-70's a bunch of them wanted to bring their message of 'white power' to Skokie (a Chicago suburb on teh north side). They even went to court to get a court order to let them march. Never mind that Skokie is a white, predominently Jewish neighborhood with a lot of Holocost survivors. It seemed to me that if they really wanted to be pushing a message of 'white power', they should have been marching on the south side of Chicago ("the baddest part of town"), say 63rd & Cottage Grove, to elucidate the Black P-Stone Rangers (who, no doubt, would have been picking their teeth with the Nazi's bones following the march).

When I was in college (late 60's), I had the opportunity to witness a Klan rally in NC. There were a couple dozen guys (at lkeast I think they were guys)in a big field in white robes and funny hats hanging around a burning cross made from what appeared to be a couple of old phone poles soaked in gasoine. They were spewing a bunch of racist gibberish and non-sequitors with bullhorns to an audience of a couple hundred drunk college kids, who weren't buying any of it. Fortunatesly, the NC state police were there to keep them apart, and the Kluxers had to be escourted off the field - they were terrified of the college kids. Very weird evening.

All in all, I figure anyone who has to tear someone else down in order to build themselves up is pretty sorry. All of the 'white 'supremecists' I've ever encountered have made me embarrassed to be a white guy, as they've all been very marginal examples of the human race, let alone prime examples of caucasoid hominids. But in this case, the 'gangs' sure played into the Nazis' agenda :banghead: :banghead:

BowStreetRunner
October 18, 2005, 10:48 AM
svtruth......KKK name could not be from the sound of a rifle being chambered because back in the 1800's when the klan was founded there weren't that many bolt/pump/lever action rifles.

everyone...please take the highroad :uhoh:
BSR

Mongo the Mutterer
October 18, 2005, 10:54 AM
Anyone interested in the history of the KKK can check out General Nathan Bedford Forrest on Wikipedia. Lots of info...

R.H. Lee
October 18, 2005, 11:26 AM
Being free to peacefully assemble and express political views, regardless of how repugnant they are, are liberties guarenteed to all Americans. 'Peaceful assembly' does not include advocating the extermination of others.

trooper
October 18, 2005, 11:31 AM
'Peaceful assembly' does not include advocating the extermination of others.

Did those idiots in question actually advocate the extermination of others when marching through the city of Toledo, or did you just assume that because they are "Nazis"?


Trooper

Camp David
October 18, 2005, 11:48 AM
'Peaceful assembly' does not include advocating the extermination of others.
Obviously you have never attended a pro-abortion rally! That is exactly what they favor!

In terms of the Toledo incident, however, we have Nazi folks rallying relatively peacefully in Toledo. Black Gangs took this as their opportunity to sack the neighborhood!

Who's wrong? Those breaking the law of course!

longeyes
October 18, 2005, 12:19 PM
Fascinating thread. Lots of condemnation (justified) for provocative American Nazis and, for some reason, the KKK, not a whole lot of scrutinizing, much less condemnation, of anarchic criminality by community residents. We're supposed to believe the Toledo Blade about race realities in Toledo? I think the cops know they are outmanned and outgunned and are simply letting nature take its course in another American neighborhood.

NCP24
October 18, 2005, 01:45 PM
Another day closer to Flashpoint 2010.


http://www.nsm88.com/index2.html
http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/groups_am_nazi.asp
http://www.nsm88.com/index2.html

Sources:

http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/groups_am_nazi.asp
http://foia.fbi.gov/anazi.htm
http://www.fatherryan.org/holocaust/neo-nazi/groups.htm

Formerly known as the European American Education Association, the group is led by Rocky Suhayda and based in Eastpointe, Michigan. The ANP claims to be dedicated to the preservation of the White Race, the Aryan Republic, and Western-European cultural heritage.

The American Nazi Party was founded by George Lincoln Rockwell in February 1959, at Rockwell's residence in Arlington, V A. This meeting was attended by six people and was originally called The World Union Free Enterprise National Socialists, and later The American Nazi Party, and The George Lincoln Rockwell Party. Rockwell's ultimate objective was the Presidency of the United States. He predicted the governorship of V A by 1966 and the Presidency by 1972. Once he attained the Presidency, he planned to exterminate all "treasonous Jews" through methods used by Hitler's Nazis, banish all African Americans to Africa and mend the United States Constitution to conform to Nazi whims.

On August 25,1967, George Lincoln Rockwell was murdered in front of 6021 Wilson Boulevard, Arlington, VA, the bullet entering his heart. He was murdered by an ex-assistant in the American Nazi Party who was sentenced to a 20 year prison term for the slaying.

The American Nazi Party is a legally based political and educational organization that claims to be in place to save the white race, the Aryan Republic, and our Western-European cultural heritage. Their motto is the Fourteen Words.

"As the world enemy wages war against the White Race and Western Civilization in every corner of the world, we have found that the ONLY WAY to shock our people awake is through BOLD ACTION. Too many others would rather try to TALK the problem away, while we realize that the time has come to FIGHT!

Only the SWASTIKA, the AGE OLD SYMBOL OF THE WHITE MAN, has the SHOCK-POWER to shatter the jewish press BLACK-OUT and force White America to THINK ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON."

longeyes
October 18, 2005, 02:25 PM
We know about the Nazis, but the people wreaking havoc in the U.S. today aren't American Nazis, they are black gang members numbering now in the hundreds of thousands along with imports from south of the Border, MS-13 and their tamer counterparts that man the gangs of the barrios all over the U.S.

Maybe the black community should worry less about visitors and more about the "Nazis" in their own bosom. Someone is raising these criminals, someone is rationalizing their behavior, someone is blaming "them."

The rise of "white supremacist" groups is a by-product of a nation that has increasingly broken down into racially-defined enclaves. The entire situation is predicated on bad faith and lies and by a concerted effort--much of it emanating from the Left--to destroy the essential values that have been the core of this nation's strength as a bastion of liberty in a dark world.

R.H. Lee
October 18, 2005, 02:39 PM
Ya know longeyes, you're right. It's a natural result of the celebrate 'diversity' and 'multiculturalism' society the left has been promoting for years.

spacemanspiff
October 18, 2005, 02:51 PM
dont worry, fellow THR'ers...
our cold state's ignorant-haters-of-all-that-is-not-aryan are too afraid to do anything more than scurry around in the middle of the night putting leaflets on windshields and spray painting the occasional empty threat ('have some pride, kill a tribe').
they know we can strike back. the funny thing is that the most vocal of them all hides out in the mat-su valley in some secret area, where they hold secrete meetings and talk big about how they will someday drive us dregs away from 'their' land.

cosmo won't have to do anything stupid. mind you, cosmo lives in primo gang territory as it is, the local latino gang has tagged our entire neighborhood.


with that all said, i have noticed in the past few months that there has been more activity it seems from the various neo-nazi or white supremicist movements. i pity anyone who expends so much energy on blind hatred. there is so much more a person could do with their time and resources.

Art Eatman
October 18, 2005, 02:51 PM
longeyes, I think everyone here holds any sort of "gang" in contempt. It's just that the Nazis and KKK are so pathetic in their pseudo-political messages that they're laughable.

Don't make the mistake of a lack of excoriation as any sort of ignoring of a group's existence, or any sort of support...

:), Art

longeyes
October 18, 2005, 03:02 PM
Art,

I realize that.

I personally detest bullyism and thugism in all forms. We should, no doubt, be vigilant as regards groups like the American Nazis and KKK and their ilk. Still, as most of us realize, the virulent fascist impulse assumes many shapes. I trace the roots of much of the ghetto thugism to comfortable, even well-meaning folks in academia, on school boards, in Hollywood scriptwriting meetings, and, yes, in all the statist-leaning hangouts of government.

What happened in Toledo was birthed in the brain of LBJ and all his epigonoi.

NCP24
October 18, 2005, 03:26 PM
--much of it emanating from the Left--to destroy the essential values that have been the core of this nation's strength as a bastion of liberty in a dark world. Longeyes you’re preaching to the choir.

longeyes
October 18, 2005, 03:45 PM
City officials in Toledo are offering a "listening session." Listen to what? Rationalizations why people are entitled to break into other people's homes, destroy their property? Sometimes it is not enough to be "nice people" always looking for a rational solution, eager to avoid trouble. Thugs are terrorists, and they can be dealt with only by countervailing force.

Cosmoline
October 18, 2005, 03:49 PM
svtruth......KKK name could not be from the sound of a rifle being chambered because back in the 1800's when the klan was founded there weren't that many bolt/pump/lever action rifles.


The earliest mention of this I know of comes in Conan Doyle's "The Five Orange Pips," (1891) where Holmes states: "“Ku Klux Klan. A name derived from the fanciful resemblance to the sound produced by cocking a rifle."

According to Wilkpedia the name "was constructed by combining the Greek "kyklos" (circle) with "clan.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klu_Klux_Klan

It's important to remember that there have been two and possibly three Klans. The first was an anti-Freedman and anti-Republican movement born in the border states during Reconstruction. Other than wanting to keep blacks "in their place" and carpetbaggers out while helping vets and widows, it did not have a very complex racial or political philosphy. Forrest left when it started to degenerate into a mere anti-black mob.

The SECOND Klan is the more well known and was inspired by the early epic film "Birth of a Nation" that glorified the first Klan. It quickly rose as a key fraternal organization across the nation in the 1920's and exercised extensive political power. It was this Klan that followed the eugenics movement and pushed a complex racial and religious agenda that in many ways mirrored the fascists operating in Europe at the same time. The second klan fell apart after the depression and WWII.

What might be thought of as the THIRD Klan emerged during the civil rights movement and was, like the first Klan, an overwhelmingly Southern and Democratic institution. These days there are a whole bunch of organizations using the name but none amount to much. The last time they had a grab at power was with David Duke, and he's now off in Russia advocating the destuction of the US.

cosmo won't have to do anything stupid. mind you, cosmo lives in primo gang territory as it is, the local latino gang has tagged our entire neighborhood.

Is that what that spray paint is on my back? I guess I shouldn't stand in one place so long when I'm smoking my pipe.

gunsmith
October 18, 2005, 03:57 PM
good ol ACLU has represented Nazi's before in the Skokie Illinois case.

good ol ACLU will go to bat for Nazi's anytime but never for gun owners:barf:

gunsmith
October 18, 2005, 04:25 PM
You will see white folks rioting with black folks...these are the "anarchist" that were mentioned by the Mayor on the news I was watching as the riots were happening.

They were probably the "black bloc" anarchist who riot every chance they get in San Francisco and NY .

They claim to be against gun control but they actually know very little about guns and spend their money on drugs and going to the next big demonstration...(and they all ways vote Dem)

they're loosely associated with punk rock (they like the look but don't $upport the shows) and they are real cowards, good at riling up a crowd but run when confronted by people their own age who are willing to fight.

I used to know quite a few in NYC in my old punk rock days (1978 -1988)
one time they had planned a "burn the flag day" on Flag Day in 85 or 86 and
some skin heads showed up ( not Nazi's, just skins )
8 or 9 skins kept 20 to 30 "black bloc" anarchist from burning flags.
what was just as funny was watching the same anarchist who never pass up an opportunity to bash the police whimper for police protection ( they never got it )

spacemanspiff
October 18, 2005, 04:31 PM
You will see white folks rioting with black folks
like, how white? michael jackson white?
or vanilla ice white?

Ultima-Ratio
October 18, 2005, 05:15 PM
What a great flick (IMO), it was actually endorsed by President Wilson, I saw it for the first time at a local gunshop.
So it's Boys In The Hood vs Boys In The Hood?:) as well as kosher klowns vs klan klowns? Shootings in the streets of Spenard are as common as cocaine and meth in Los Anchorage but it isn't the klan doing the shooting or the drug distribution. Then there's the proliferation of X parties (extacy?), but it's the freaking naziz that should be killed?:banghead:
Yeppers there are some not so interesting nut cases here and a gun show soon!!

MICHAEL T
October 18, 2005, 05:24 PM
I draw the lines at marching parades of nazis. If I saw such a thing, I would be very hard pressed to avoid exercising my considerable marksmanship skills on their heads. That makes me different from a nazi because I would be KILLING nazis. Not joining them. Of course mass parades of neo nazis down the street are exceedingly rare things. If they ever start taking place up here, it's very likely that the time will have come to take up arms and start making cocktails to greet them. Even if the majority of the people supported the white pride yinyangs, I would still oppose them with every lethal tool and device I could create, killing as many of them as possible. Hitler, after all, was duly elected.

That said, I do not support STATE efforts to impinge on free expression. I am not the state.

I think you need some help and maybe some Meds. You are border line.

Ultima-Ratio
October 18, 2005, 06:01 PM
Both the fbi link and the antidefamation link are defined as hate speach on the burst filter!!?? Thanks tho, I'll look later!

Shalako
October 18, 2005, 06:05 PM
1.)
Now I don't tend to agree with Cosmoline on the level of force needed to deal with civilian Nazi dipsticks, but STAGE 2 gave me an interesting thought to play as devil's advocate. What if it was a bunch of fundamentalist islamists demonstrating in your city for the destruction of the Great Satan? What if they were preaching their doctrine of suicide bombings and trying to recruit your kids?

If that was the case, I wouldn't lose any sleep over Cosmo on the rooftop with his russian companion.

2.)
What will it take for 'Black America' to get with the program?
As soon as these folks realize that we are not two teams, that we are all on the same team "America", as soon as they stop denigrating any successful black individual that positively contributes to American society and slandering that person as "white", this country will be on the right track.

Right now, a lot (generalization) of black youths want a subculture that is distinctly black. Anything productive and successful has already been done by the 'white' team so they are building their subculture on all the other stuff.

pax
October 18, 2005, 06:14 PM
The rise of "white supremacist" groups is a by-product of a nation that has increasingly broken down into racially-defined enclaves.
Don't be silly. The KKK goes back a lot further than that. Racial intolerance is a recurring, and very ugly, thread that is common to almost all human cultures -- and it springs up every time it is given a chance.

It goes back at least to Biblical times. Not just Jews vs gentiles, but whites vs blacks (see the story of Moses' wife, for a startling example).

"White supremicism" is ugly, vicious, and stupid. It is every bit as ugly, vicious, and stupid as the stuff spouted by its black, brown, and yellow counterparts.

pax

All languages carry in them a portrait of their users and the idioms of every language say over and over again, 'He is a stranger and therefore a barbarian.' ... It is the only joke that God ever repeats, because its humor never grows stale. -- Robert A. Heinlein

Cosmoline
October 18, 2005, 07:04 PM
I think you need some help and maybe some Meds. You are border line.

For wanting to kill nazi scum? I suppose the US Army on D-Day was "borderline" too. I think there's something seriously wrong with you if you *DON'T* want to kill them all. THEY ARE NAZIS. What part of that are you having trouble with? Nazis. You know. Jackboots. Take over government. Kill minority groups. Racial purity nonsense. Eugenics. NAZIS. Jesh.

Cosmoline
October 18, 2005, 07:10 PM
What a great flick (IMO), it was actually endorsed by President Wilson, I saw it for the first time at a local gunshop.


Politics aside, it's required viewing for film buffs. A few dozen new innovations in basic filming methods were introduced with the film. The Klan are a bunch of a-clowns, but unlike the Nazis they are at least American. The dark side of America, to be sure. But still a part of us. Nazis are European to the core. They are foreign to this nation. For them it's all about taking over the world and instituting grand government programs with hordes marching in the street. Look at Duke. As soon as he lost his bid for power he ran off to Euroland and Russia to attack us. It's why all the neo-nazis keep links in Germany and overseas. Most of them don't even consider themselves American. But hell if some "asatru" bund wants to meet over in the Mat-Su I could care less. I don't really consider that the same thing as being a Nazi.

Biker
October 18, 2005, 07:17 PM
Cosmoline
Gotta part ways with you here. I can't deal well with the pinheads either, but they are protected in our country as are Jews who advocate the killing of all Palestinians, Palestinians who advocate the killing of all Jews, Black Supremists who advocate the killing of all, well, Jews and Whites, Brown Beret/La Raza types who advocate the reconquista of 'aztlan' through any means necessary, including the killing of whites and blacks, so forth, so on.
Why single out the KKKers? They're no better or worse than the others.
Biker

spacemanspiff
October 18, 2005, 07:17 PM
lets split hairs for a moment cosmo, if only to clarify your point of view....

who do you lump in with the nazis? white supremicists? seperatists? rednecks who fly Old Glory? the brotherhood? national socialist movement?


to the rest of the class, how different is cosmos beliefs from those who wish to kill all muslims? or for that matter, the wish of muslims to kill all infidels (yes, aside from the obvious instructions from muhummed to wage jihad blah blah blah), or the desire of extraterrestials to kill all humans? wait, that last one might have just been the ad campaign of a video game?

i can't find fault with cosmos arguments, save for its something one might only reveal in strict confidence to a close personal associate. granted he did also say he'd find something to occupy his time with so he wouldnt follow through with what he wants to do.....

i think what we need to ask is if cosmolines belief that all nazis deserve to die holds any validity, whether or not its in poor taste to discuss the matter at all.

Cosmoline
October 18, 2005, 07:25 PM
Nazis are nazis. Maybe that's part of the confusion. I'm not talking about white separatists, Klan members, or whatever. I'm talking about nazis and neo-nazis. The fellows who want us to worship Hitler and in their dark dreams want the US to become what Germany was in the late 1930's. Kill the Jews and Blacks, instutite racial purity laws, eliminate the federalist system and place a single all-powerful leader at the helm. Nazis. By definition they are an imminent threat and they need killing. While I don't agree with banning them through the government I don't see the need to tolerate some Nazi putsch stateside.

There are probably only a few thousand of them even in the nation and only a few in this state, so the debate is academic. Maybe the ones who were planning to march weren't really nazis but just some version of white separatists, so perhaps the whole issue is off topic.

It's worth remembering, though, that the David Dukes and David Pringles of the world are only too happy to wrap themselves in the Stars & Bars and preach what seems to be sensible anti-immigration rhetoric if it will increase their power base. But that's some bad cool-aid they're selling.

Art Eatman
October 18, 2005, 07:38 PM
Rambling around a bit: Generally, it seems to me that the ACLU focusses on the First Amendment, and doesn't notice the others.

Thinking of slippery slopes and camels' noses in tents, it seems to me that it would be an extremely bad precedent to deny any fool the right to march and yap, just because 1) There are few of them; and, 2) Their entire message is anathema.

Some of that, "They came for..." stuff.

We talk a lot here about lack of privacy from Government. Seems to me a good way to get a picture of yourself in the Gummint compooters is to be unpopular, march, yap, and in your yapping suggest the overthrow of the existing order. Unless the membership is already half-FBI, I can think of a lot of groups whom I'd have out there marching. :D

Art

longeyes
October 18, 2005, 07:49 PM
Don't be silly. The KKK goes back a lot further than that. Racial intolerance is a recurring, and very ugly, thread that is common to almost all human cultures -- and it springs up every time it is given a chance.

Thanks for the information; I'm aware that racism is nothing new. But that wasn't the KKK that was in Toledo. And the Nazi group didn't, in fact, march. What we saw in Toledo may have been as old as the hills but it was expressed in a particular, modern form, and arose from some very specific conditions. I think you saw the collision of two racist groups, that's all, and as long as we encourage racial balkanization in our culture, codified or not, we will continue to see this kind of dangerous friction. We haven't seen marches, by and large, protesting the gangocracy that dominates American inner cities. Maybe it takes "extremists" to actually take to the streets. That's unfortunate and ugly but all too real.

Jackthelad
October 18, 2005, 10:17 PM
Mods- thanks for letting this thread continue. It could have turned, but I am glad cool heads prevailed. Lots of interesting thoughts.

XLMiguel
October 18, 2005, 10:55 PM
Thanks, Art, for making the point again - nothing is better for mildew than fresh air and sunshine.

We've got to let them march and expose themselves in the marketplace of ideas. Their crap doesn't stand up to examination and critical thinking, all they have is rhetoric and emotion (sound familiar?), but when they're suppressed, they can cliam "Our ju-ju is so potent that the Powers That Be are afraid . . . " therefore you must join with us to share and spread the 'power and truth'.

There will always be people who are too lazy to think for themselves, and blame others for their crappy lives, but it's up to the rest of us to hold their feet to the fire and call "bullsh*t!!". If they want to wallow in their own mediocrity, that's their choice, but we should never let them blame anyone but themselves for their situation.

pezo
October 18, 2005, 11:36 PM
It reminds me of the hurricane in New orleans. what do you do when a tragic situation like a hurricane and flood hit your neighborhood? You loot and steal. ok then what do you do when some kooky nazi's come around? you loot, riot and steal. :banghead: I dare not say anymore.

TheEgg
October 19, 2005, 11:19 AM
i can't find fault with cosmos arguments

Then you need to really try a lot harder. Please re-read the cogent points made by Art in the posts immediately preceeding this one.

Art Eatman
October 19, 2005, 01:23 PM
I don't deny that my emotional reaction to any hate group is "eradication". Trouble is, just getting rid of a few individuals doesn't get rid of an idea. Stalin and Mao got rid of tens of millions, but the idea of freedom lived on.

The enemy is not the few idiots of the Nazis or the KKK or whomever. It's the body of ideas espoused by whatever group.

And the best way to get rid of dumb ideas is by proving them fruitless...

Art

spacemanspiff
October 19, 2005, 01:25 PM
is it in poor taste to discuss who we think should not be breathing air? i'd say so.

me, i think all rapists and child molestor should be killed. would i get as much guff as cosmo got for posting how he feels about nazis?

edit - ooooo check out arts post count! 8,888.... nice!

pax
October 19, 2005, 01:51 PM
Art ~ brilliant way to put it.

pax

Books won't stay banned. They won't burn. Ideas won't go to jail. In the long run of history, the censor and the inquisitor have always lost. The only sure weapon against bad ideas is better ideas. -- Alfred Whitney

Byron Quick
October 19, 2005, 01:56 PM
It's really a balancing act. On the one hand, we need to respect the civil rights of people whose ideology we despise. On the other hand, we need to watch them like hawks. Consider the German Nazi Party, there comes a time when such a group's actions and goals constitute a clear and present danger. What's that point? Ah, that's the balancing part of the act. I would say that it comes when members of such a group use violence against whomever their ideology classes as subhuman or against their political opponents. (The German Nazis used violence in internecine struggles long before they used it against people they considered subhuman.)

Case in point. Back in the mid-sixties, some of my relatives were members of the KKK. They got to spouting off at a family reunion about harming blacks in the area. Other relatives there informed them of some facts: a)we have black friends. b)We're not saying who those black friends are. c) When those friends are harmed by the KKK, then members of the KKK will be harmed in the same manner, i.e., you burn their house down and we'll burn your house down. From what I've heard, this scene was fairly common in the county at the time. KKK has been dead in the water around these parts ever since. They had a small march in a small town in the county about twenty years ago. Had to import marchers.

As long as they're just talking idiocy, marching, and such...let them do it while watching them. Once they start acting on their idiocy, and those actions attain a magnitude which law enforcement cannot control, then it's time to consider other methods. Until the rule of law has clearly failed to meet a challenge, all good citizens need to support the rule of law-excluding their personal feelings.

Beren
October 19, 2005, 02:02 PM
me, i think all rapists and child molestor should be killed. would i get as much guff as cosmo got for posting how he feels about nazis?

There's a distinction between punishing someone for a physical act that directly causes harm to another and punishing them for expressing a disagreeable idea.

Someone who rapes a child should be hung. I agree. Someone who talks about raping children should not be hung, only despised, ridiculed, and observed.

Mongo the Mutterer
October 19, 2005, 02:07 PM
As long as they're just talking idiocy, marching, and such...let them do it while watching them. Once they start acting on their idiocy, and those actions attain a magnitude which law enforcement cannot control, then it's time to consider other methods. Until the rule of law has clearly failed to meet a challenge, all good citizens need to support the rule of law-excluding their personal feelings. Well said. We can't fix stupid, we can't fix bigotry, we can't fix punk thugs tearing up their community. Best to keep a close eye on them.

Sportcat
October 19, 2005, 02:56 PM
http://webpages.charter.net/porterebaystuff/gangs.jpg

org
October 19, 2005, 02:56 PM
What's going to be the first thing people remember about this incident? The Nazis or the gang riots? My guess is the riots by poor, inner city blacks.

And for good reason.

c_yeager
October 19, 2005, 03:34 PM
Does anyone else find it interesting that the media was able to identify these people as "gang members" based simply at looking at them in pictures? I wonder what physicaly observable characteristics led to that particular conclusion.

Byron Quick
October 19, 2005, 04:21 PM
Many gangs' member dressed in particlar styles and colors. Gang specific tatoos and symbols are other methods that can sometimes be used to identify gang members on sight. Also check out the use of various hand signals. The gangs have a pretty large amount of visual signals.

Knowing the colors and styles can be a survival factor while in gang territory. It's not a good idea to inadvertently wear one gang's colors while on a rival gang's territory.

antarti
October 20, 2005, 02:04 PM
The headline is itself misleading. These were acts of theft and property destruction, i.e. crimes, by a gang. It was a mob of looters and vandals, not "Anti-Nazi" protesters rioting after clashing with the Nazis.

A problem is that the media and politicians coddle and make excuses for these thugs, instead of vigorously prosecuting them and exposing them for what they are. "Anti Nazi Protester" is a thing to be proud of in my book, but that doesn't equate with "looting pillaging thug" which is what the gangs are.

I am in full agreement that the 1st Amendment protects BOTH sides of that march in what they wish to espouse. However, having seen the human toll Communism took (and continues to take) on the Russian people, I award groups like Nazis and Communists "special status". I would include any "death cultists" like the Wahabbis (sp?) and radical Islamics in that (admittedly) self-made designation. In that sense, I agree with Cosmoline. There are "threats", and there are "Threats".

These people are not interested, not in the least, in anything other than forging an entire society into their sick ideological ideal, regardless of any obstructions in their path, and leave no democratic recourse later. Regardless of the cost in human lives, misery, poverty, starvation, previous laws or covenants, etc., they will create what they want by the truckload... DEATH, and therein lies why they are so zealous in their barbarism. To their minds they are never killing, but always creating man (whether it be the Aryan Race or the New Soviet Man) in a new and greater image. They aren't just doing God's work, they are convinced they are improving on it, or supplanting it. Just as the Creator made us in His image, these people strive to re-create it in theirs. Is it any wonder the results are so uniformly ghastly regardless of the names of history's despots?

There are no "people" in their plans, only tools to be either molded and used, or discarded. The conscience or soul is to be driven out. It is the second casualty, after the mind.

For these reasons, Nazi's/Commies/Islamicists need to be watched. If they have gotten organized to a point where they are going to start going around intimidating people like the Brownshirts of old, then they themselves need to be intimidated (or worse) into oblivion. Yes, that's a subjective call, but few things in life aren't, and I trust myself and my neighbors to make that decision far more than the gangbangers (who ultimately did nothing to the Nazis) or the Mayor/Government (who did nothing to any criminal and equally did nothing good for any law-abiding citizen).

Sadly, the Socialist/Marxist/Communist view doesn't get much virulent reporting. It is becoming far more pervasive in everyday life as just "the way things are", and in our schools as "the way things ought to be", or worse "the way things WERE" (false histories and false visions of the America that was/is). I genuinely fear that when Communism comes (or rather, is finally fully here), nobody will even recognize it. Most will be hoarding guns and ammo "waiting for the balloon to go up" or some other rubbish, and won't even see that they, and their children, are done for.

I know it may seem cheesy plugging a book, but if you haven't read Matthew Maly's "Russia As It Is" (after having been there to see it firsthand too) what I'm saying won't make much sense to many. Lots of big/fat books on Communist/Nazi/Totalitarian mechanics and leadership, none on its pervasively evil nature (and mention of common goals of Nazism and Islamicism) like this one.

Mongo the Mutterer
October 20, 2005, 03:01 PM
antarti : Sadly, the Socialist/Marxist/Communist view doesn't get much virulent reporting. No it doesn't. Great post, by the way.

The reason that the S/M/C view doesn't get reported is that the majority of the media are propagadists for the view. This is not new. Research Walter Duranty and the 1932-33 intentional Bolshevik forced starvation of 7 to 10 million Ukrainians. Duranty was a "reporter" for the New York Times in Moscow. In reality, he was Stalin's propagadist in the US.

The Communists killed over 100 million people in the 20th century. I can recall ONE movie, "The Killing Fields", about their slaughters. Ask yourself why Hollywood and the press has ignored this issue.

NCP24
October 20, 2005, 04:13 PM
The Communists killed over 100 million people in the 20th century. I can recall ONE movie, "The Killing Fields", about their slaughters. Ask yourself why Hollywood and the press has ignored this issue. Because they’re a bunch of dang commies!

longeyes
October 20, 2005, 04:20 PM
Is there a Hollywood "great" who has not made a pilgrimage to Cuba? Che is the reigning dead saint in Tinseltown, Castro the reigning living one.

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