Strange situation at church tonight. Irresponsible gun owner.


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KevinB
October 16, 2005, 01:22 AM
A good friend of mine witnessed some irresponsible actions by a member of our church this evening. I wanted to see what everyone's opinion on the situation and to find out what you would have done had you been there.

My church was having its annual talent show and bake sale tonight. I didn't go, but a friend of mine was there and called to tell me about this after it was over. This guy in his 20's, dresses in all black, dyes his hair black, has black flames tattoed up his arms, and paints his fingernails black, was in attendence this evening. It was about to be his turn to go up on stage to perform, and he goes and sits next to his brother directly in front of my friend. She says she noticed him passing something behind thier backs, so she leaned forward to see what they were doing. Apparently this guy was packing and decided that drawing his CCW, and passing it behind his back to his brother was safer than leaving it in the holster before going up on stage. :confused: I assumed he didn't have a holster when she first told me this, but she said that he had a OWB of some sort. I guess his rentention really sucks. :scrutiny: Well, he goes up to do his perfomance (which I'm sure was intellectually stimulating :rolleyes: ) and his brother stands up and proceeds to headbang, all the while leaving this gun unattended on the church pew. So then things begin to get worse. A little girl wanders over and begins playing around right in front of this thing. Looking like she is about to sit directly on top of this outstanding citizens sidearm, my friend quickly leaned in to intervene and stopped the girl. This got the mothers attention and when she saw the gun she sat in between it and her daughter. After his performance goth boy comes down off the stage and holsters back up without a clue who may of had access to his gun while he was away. My freind said it was a small black gun of some sort, small enough to be a .22, but she doesn't know for sure.


-Kevin :mad:

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marklbucla
October 16, 2005, 01:32 AM
If I had been right there, I would probably have discreetly taken the gun and concealed it myself and have a good talk with the person afterwards. I wouldn't want to call attention to it in front of everyone, but an unattended gun is a big nono, especially around children and liberals.

Lupinus
October 16, 2005, 01:37 AM
Do we know he even had a CCW and wasn't just some little punk carrying a gun to look cool? If he is, it is the responsible thing to do to give him a piece of your mind. Don't be rude or provoking. But you should make a comment about how unsafe it is to leave a gun laying around anywhere, esspecialy in a public place, esspecialy where little children might pick it up and accidently blow their or someone else's head off. He say's "Chill man" you say "No, but when some kid eventually picks up your gun and blows their head off they will be chilling in the mourge. Think on that next time before you leave your gun laying around."

And then walk away. Don't stand and argue. Don't have a provolking tone. But idiot's like that need to be told when they do something wrong. Also, if oyu have his name I'd give the police a call and say he has been seen carrying and based on his handling of his weapon you arn't sure he has a CCW, discribe it, and ask the police to pay him a visit and find out if he has the proper permit's.

Sheesh. I havn't even taken a course. Im not 21 yet and as far as I know the 21 rule is federal. But I mean jeez, I can see not knowing rule's by heart, but common sense. Please. Just good old common sense will take care of 99.9% of safty issues IMO.

MikeIsaj
October 16, 2005, 01:41 AM
That gun would have been in my pocket and out the door. It would have been in the parking lot waiting with me for the police. Goth boy could come out and claim it from them.

This is clearly maximum irresponsible behavior that should not be ignored.

Did he have a CCW permit?

Did his brother have a CCW permit?

Do either of them have half a brain?

What church do you belong to? It sounds pretty cool. In my church up here in blissninny land, there would have been a stampede in the panic caused by the sight of a gun. Parents had nervous breakdowns when I proposed an Eddie The Eagle program in the school. Fortunately the principal, a nun, did not panic and welcomed he program enthusiastically.

Lupinus
October 16, 2005, 01:49 AM
Well mike, you are in jersey, so that somehow does no surprise me.

Pretty liberal land in them part's. Naturaly, the Eddie Eagle, which is a great program IMO, get's hard resistence. We live in a socity where we prefer to sanitize rather then educate. Rather then teaching our kid's that sticking a piece of metal in an outlet is dangerous. We simply cover it with plastic and dont give any more thought. We don't teach that the pretty colored chemicles under the sink are dangerous, we put a type of lock on it. We don't teach that pill bottle's are a no no, we jsut put child proofing on it that moth kid's can figure out and many arthritise patient's have to kil lthemselves to open. And we prefer to eradicate gun's rather then properly teach. Our socitity has an ass backward's view of how to teach a child and lazy parent's that dont want to teach their children.

Skofnung
October 16, 2005, 01:49 AM
I would have screamed OH MY GOD! GUNNNNN!!!! and ran around in circles biting my fingers. :D

Lupinus
October 16, 2005, 01:51 AM
LOL!

I can't see any members here doing that.

But ican DEFINATLY see some liberal doing it. And funny it would be lol

Then later it would hit as terribly sad.

KevinB
October 16, 2005, 02:03 AM
No, I don't know if he has a permit or not. Honestly, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he was a felon. I strongly suspect that he is a drug user as well.

My church is a non-traditional, non-denomination kinda place. Very laid back atmospere.

-Kevin

Derby FALs
October 16, 2005, 02:26 AM
Why in the world would it matter if he had a CCW? He has just as much God given right to defend himself as you do. The issue is one of gun safety. I would have covered the gun and sat right beside it until they got back and let them know I felt it was very unsafe to leave it attended. Remember also that honey will catch you more flies than vinegar. Sounds like they are young and inexperienced and you have an opportunity to set them on the right path.

Skofnung
October 16, 2005, 02:28 AM
I strongly suspect that he is a drug user as well.

A gun toting church going goth looking drug user... hmmmmmmm...

Come to think of it, thats not so strange. Sounds sorta like a few members of the clique I ran with back in HS.

MAURICE
October 16, 2005, 02:50 AM
The guy made a big mistake leaving the gun unattended.
Lets not judge him by his taste in fashion, though. I have (at the moment) and shaved head. I am tatooed, I wear combat boots or 5.11 ATACs, and I like to wear my black hoody when it is cold outside. Sometimes I guess I look like a punk. My friends call me an oversized skin head. However, I obey the law. Heck, I work for the AR D.O.C.
Lets not be too quick to judge a book by...well, you know.

Maurice
(I do dress up nicely, though. Just not often ;))

bigun15
October 16, 2005, 02:55 AM
I would have taken out the mag, cleared the chamber if loaded (figuring if he's gone this far he shouldn't have ammo), and stand up and scream "EXCUSE ME, YOU FORGOT YOUR GUN ON THE PEW. I TOOK THE AMMO SINCE YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO USE IT.YOUR WELCOME."

chris in va
October 16, 2005, 05:00 AM
[QUOTE]Lets not judge him by his taste in fashion, though. I have (at the moment) and shaved head. I am tatooed, I wear combat boots or 5.11 ATACs, and I like to wear my black hoody when it is cold outside. [QUOTE]

Yeah, but do you attend church looking like that?

Thin Black Line
October 16, 2005, 08:13 AM
I'd have to agree with Mike.

In the military, if you leave a weapon unattended or the buddy you left
it with leaves it unattended, we tend to snatch them.

Also, in many states it is illegal to take a firearm into a place of worship,
CCW or not.

GlenJ
October 16, 2005, 09:25 AM
[QUOTE=MikeIsaj]That gun would have been in my pocket and out the door. It would have been in the parking lot waiting with me for the police. Goth boy could come out and claim it from them.

I would have done the same. Had that gun went off it would made national news and all gun owners and church goers would look bad. What I find funny is how these anything goes churches look at denominational churches as the wierd ones.

Blue Line
October 16, 2005, 10:00 AM
Never leave a weapon unattended

MikeIsaj
October 16, 2005, 10:35 AM
Well mike, you are in jersey,:confused:

Get a map. Find the city of brotherly love (Rhymes with Filthydelphia) and the Peoples Republic of New Jersey. You will end up in Bucks County. Founded by William Penn, and under heavy Quaker influence still. Even so, still more wolf country than sheep country. Definately not New Jersey!

And regarding another thread, "Illinois Nazi's" is from the Blues Brothers. I'm guessing your well under thirty?

johnmcl
October 16, 2005, 10:59 AM
Hi guyz,

It seems like the choice before your friend was to either fix a situation or create one. Fixing one would be to either quietly secure the weapon and then have a quiet talk with the owner afterwards. Based on what you'd discover in that talk other options are open.

The other is to creat a situation. Drawing attention to this guy's mistake, getting LE into the picture, being confrontational would all make the situation worse in my mind.

Is the objective to ensure this guy doesn't make the same mistake again? If so, the choice is clear to me...

John

Geno
October 16, 2005, 11:10 AM
Unattended gun + unattended child = death. I would take the gun and call the police.

I don't care what he looks like. My simple concern is, he drew a gun in church. He passed it to a "non-owner", or did he? He left in unattended. The other issues (CCW, ownership, etc.) are of concern to the police. My single concern would be to remove the potential danger.

Doc2005

thatguy
October 16, 2005, 11:17 AM
Well, it seems to me that one should keep one's weapon concealed and under control at all times.

If one feels that one shouldn't be armed at any point during the event then perhaps one should leave the gun in the car for the duration.

To those saying that they would take the gun and call the cops, I say it's a bad idea to A: take someone's property and B: touch another man's gun. Unless you know for an absolute fact that a crime has been committed why would you call the cops?

The guy sounds pretty weird looking. This is America, we're supposed to have the right to be weird if we want. Can't always judge a book by it's cover. I think what he was doing was unwise, not criminal.

rageofangels
October 16, 2005, 11:32 AM
Poor judgment was used on this individual's part. Of course, the story reported is not witnessed on a first handed account. The story stinks from the get go of "my friend said..." because that is how most rumours, urban legends, lies, or just plain fish stories begin. I am not calling you or your friend's specific character into question, but stating a simple fact of how stories are often exaggerated, retold and embellished. As far as the criticism for this individual attending a church service, where would you rather have this person attend? Church is for those who do not have their lives together and this includes those who dress for attention.

As far as this young man’s judgment call for either leaving his gun with someone who may not be qualified (remember, he did not sit the gun on the pew, his brother did)

chris in va - Yeah, but do you attend church looking like that? QUOTE]

Church has come a long way. And for the better. See prior commentary above. :neener:

marklbucla has the best advice out of the lot. To take the time of explaining what was done wrong, what can be done to fix things and end it on a note of what could have happened is much more appropriate and respectful (how we should act inside and outside of church) to the person. Most people are easily coerced into your arguments when they are positively persuaded. I am glad the police were not called. We do not need the bad media exposure as mentioned, both for church-goers and for firearm owners.

Remember, everything we’re hearing is third-hand information, at best. The exception, of course, being KevinB. But his information is second-hand at best.

Peace be with you!
:evil:

Lupinus
October 16, 2005, 11:52 AM
Sorry Mike had to read your location agian lol

MikeIsaj
October 16, 2005, 03:20 PM
Thatguy,I say it's a bad idea to A: take someone's property and B: touch another man's gun. Unless you know for an absolute fact that a crime has been committed why would you call the cops?If your property is presenting an inherent public danger, and I have the skill and ability to abate that danger, your gun is going to be in my pocket. I know for a fact that you have committed a crime when you have deliberately and knowingly, laid a gun in a pew outside of your direct and constant supervision, where children are present. It is called "endangerment" and is a reckless act I'm sure even in your community. I will most certainly call the cops to further justify my action as a public service rather than theft of a firearm.

Someone else wrote "fix a problem or cause a problem." How can I fix the problem when according to you, the problem doesn't exist until I cause it. this is blissninny nonsense. Let's not hold anyone accountable because they may raise their voice. Me talking to this idiot would not be a calmer resolution than calling the cops.

Something to consider before sitting on your hands and doing nothing. In Pa. you have an obligation to safeguard a minor. Let the child get the gun and hurt someone because you didn't want to be involved and you could find yourself being charged.

Andrew Rothman
October 16, 2005, 03:44 PM
Unless you know for an absolute fact that a crime has been committed why would you call the cops?

In most states, leaving a child unfettered access to a loaded gun is a crime.

I would have pocketed the thing and walked quietly away. Let goth-boy have a little panic attack when he can't find it.

Adrenaline can be a great teacher. :)

Sistema1927
October 16, 2005, 04:49 PM
My vote for the "understatement of the year" award:

My church is a non-traditional, non-denomination kinda place. Very laid back atmospere.

bigun15
October 16, 2005, 05:18 PM
Is the objective to ensure this guy doesn't make the same mistake again?

Yes. That's why you make a fool out of him and humiliate him. Even stupid people are (usually) smart enough to learn from a mistake with a consequence like that.

WayneConrad
October 16, 2005, 06:14 PM
Your friend and the girl's mom did well to keep their heads and handle things without any chest beating or pointless hysteria. A friendly (without belittling or condenscension) talk about holsters and concealment techniques, in the parking lot after the service, would been right neighborly.

Majic
October 16, 2005, 06:29 PM
I would have pocketed the thing and walked quietly away. Let goth-boy have a little panic attack when he can't find it.
So your fix to the problem is to become a thief because that is nothing more than stealing.
That's why you make a fool out of him and humiliate him.
Humiliation is never a tool of education.

Dionysusigma
October 16, 2005, 07:07 PM
It is a sad day indeed when one cannot both perform on-stage at church and carry concealed. :(

Andrew Rothman
October 16, 2005, 07:32 PM
I would have pocketed the thing and walked quietly away. Let goth-boy have a little panic attack when he can't find it.
So your fix to the problem is to become a thief because that is nothing more than stealing.

If I wasn't clear enough, no, not to steal it. To keep it safe, to let him have the panic attack, and then to return it once the lesson is learned.

If you think temporarily taking possession of it is stealing, please look up the principle of lesser harm.

Derby FALs
October 16, 2005, 07:35 PM
Make sure you get lots of prints on it.:evil:

kirkcdl
October 16, 2005, 07:50 PM
You know,in most states if you had pocketed the gun and he had simply reported you as stealing his gun,you will go to jail,whether he's legally carrying or not.When you explained to the police you were trying to teach him a lesson,their reply would most likely be something along the lines of"That's OUR job,now put your hands behind your back."Not to mention you could possibly lose your right to own and/or carry.I agree something should be said,but look at the positives here:First,he IS in church,not many teens and twentysomethings go there at all,so you're probably looking at someone that isn't terribly evil-minded.At least he had the presence of mind to not want to panic the entire congregation should his gun become visible.Second,his friend was the one guilty of the bad for not securing the weapon,NOT the goth guy.And what a perfect opportunity to gain a shooting buddy,you don't have to hang out with him,but if you were to go shooting with him a few times you would have the opportunity to steer him in the right direction regarding concealed carry.Who knows,under that exterior that scares the crap out of you might lurk a new friend,once you base your opinions on what kind of person he is,rather than what he looks like.Using the commonly depicted image of Jesus Christ himself,you think they'd allow Him into a Southern Baptist church in,say,Mississippi??You GOTTA look past the skin,man,after all,isn't that what religion is all about in the first place???You know,we're all brothers inside???Or do you go to church just to be seen at church??

You must LIVE it,or you're wasting your time.And He will know the difference when you meet...

Standing Wolf
October 16, 2005, 09:43 PM
I'd say the lad needs a heart to heart conversation with an adult who's wise to the ways of firearms.

Boss Spearman
October 16, 2005, 09:48 PM
That gun would have been in my pocket and out the door. It would have been in the parking lot waiting with me for the police. Goth boy could come out and claim it from them.




I'm with you on this one.

The temptation to pistol whip the guy would be there too, but I'd ignore it.
;)

klover
October 16, 2005, 10:47 PM
to go with me while I remove the gun (muzzle ALWAYS down) to the parking lot. She would be a witness to my motives. We would then surrender the gun to the police, and let the police do the determination for further education.

Not knowing the gun, I would not attempt to clear the ammo in it. It could have a home trigger job on it that could discharge with a breath.

It's way serious to allow children (or anyone) to come to harm by neglect of your responsibillities to be a SAFE gun owner (or a SAFE caretaker of someone else's gun).

Thin Black Line
October 17, 2005, 03:31 AM
Quote:
"A friendly (without belittling or condenscension) talk about holsters and concealment techniques, in the parking lot after the service, would been right neighborly."
------------------

Sorry, crowded Church, people not paying attention, little kids, imminent
danger --we're past the "neighborly" conversation stage when someone is
being an idiot. Same thing when some idiot is handling their weapon while
you're downrange. You take charge of situation when there are potentially
catastrophic consequences. Better some ruffled feathers than a dead kid.
Gun rights get circumscribed when they can't be handled safely around
other people.


Quote:
"You know,in most states if you had pocketed the gun and he had simply reported you as stealing his gun,you will go to jail,whether he's legally carrying or not."
-------------------

We're assuming these people would have even noticed. And, no, taking
the firearm to the minister and making a phone call to the police about a
"pistol I just found left here on a chair in our Church" is NOT going to result in
me going to jail.

So, assuming this "goth dude" even had a ccw and it was legal to carry inside
a Church in the first place (maybe/maybe not?), after his scolding for being a
complete idiot and assuming the police wouldn't have further business to
conduct with him downtown, he could benefit from a holster AND lanyard.
My guess is the police could have asked the entire church whose pistol
this was and no one would have stepped forward to claim it......

Texas9
October 17, 2005, 10:03 AM
It's a real good thing for him, anyway:D

For starters, I have hair to the small of my back, an earring, and about 4" of goattee hanging from my chin. I attend church like that. I also handle my gun like that. One's appearance has little to do with the number of functioning brain cells he has. Would we be accusing him of drug use or felony history were he clean cut in kakhis and a nice button down? I would hope that should we ever end up at a group shoot that I'd not be looked down upon for that.

Secondly, permit or not, were he in Texas a crime would have clearly been commited. In Texas, it is unlawful for anyone to, intentionally or not, leave a firearm in a place that can be easily accessed by a child. EVEN IF he had a permit, he had also committed a crime (in ANY state) because he FAILED TO CONCEAL. Any short-haired church-goer can appreciate this.

I think this is a clear-cut case of irresponsibility gone from bad to worse. Let's all rejoice in that it didn't go from worse to worst.:uhoh:

That being said, I'd like to slap the moron in question here for being the cause of his own criticism. Stuff like that makes me look bad. I'd rather have the chance to do that on my own:neener:

Janitor
October 17, 2005, 11:17 AM
EVEN IF he had a permit, he had also committed a crime (in ANY state) because he FAILED TO CONCEAL.
Only nit to pick here is the parenthetical "in ANY state" -

While I'm sure there are other states, at least MN & TN allow open carry with the same license that covers concealed carry. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, TX may well be in a minority in licensing concealed carry only.

middy
October 17, 2005, 11:41 AM
Honestly, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he was a felon. I strongly suspect that he is a drug user as well.
Just because of his appearance? If so, that's an ignorant thing to say. You know, a lot of Ted Bundy's victims judged people by their appearance...

Derby FALs
October 17, 2005, 11:44 AM
He committed a CRIME, oh my! :eek:

No one was harmed. I hope no one here ever loses their right to be armed, forever, over a technicality. If you do, think back on your response to this thread for consolation.

pax
October 17, 2005, 12:16 PM
Wait just a minute, everyone.

The kid didn't leave his gun just lying around. He asked his brother to watch the gun for him.

Instead of getting mad at the gun owner, who obviously believed his brother could be trusted to watch the gun, why not get mad at the brother, who didn't watch the gun?

pax

rageofangels
October 17, 2005, 01:11 PM
pax

Isn't that what I said? :neener:

one-shot-one
October 17, 2005, 01:15 PM
but he was wrong about his brother being trustworthy.
i'm not sure what should have been done, i was not there but now kevin, you your friend and the mother of the little girl should let the church leadership know what happened as it is in their best intrerest to have a talk with both this young man and his brother about personel responsability. this could have badly effected the entire church.

pax
October 17, 2005, 01:23 PM
rageofangels ~ you were alone, weren't you? ;)

one-shot-one ~

Correct. But there's plenty of blame to go around. My kids (five boys) sat through church with us when they were little, starting at age 2 or 2 1/2. They sat when we sat, and they stood in place next to us or were held in our arms while standing. They did not wander up and down the aisle, they were not allowed to make noise, and we sure as heck did not allow them to clamber back and forth in the pew behind everyone else who was standing. The mom couldn't have expected a firearm to be sitting on the pew, but she still shouldn't have been allowing her daughter to play in a church service. That's not what church is for.

pax

KevinB
October 17, 2005, 01:33 PM
Alright, I'm just going to clear a few things up. I'm not judging this guy by the way he dresses. I know him, his brother, and their family history. That's why the strong suspicion of drug use. I'm a college student and I am well aware that there are alot of people out there that draw judgements from the way young people dress. I am not one of them. I find humor in the number of people that label some as "gangbangers" because they dress in the style of the times. I have several friends that dress in the aforementioned way, and they are in no way affiliated with a gang. I was just trying to provide a good description of the situation, including his appearance. If he was clean cut and liked to wear khaki's and pink polo shirts I would have described him just the same. Of course instead of "goth boy" he probably would've gotten a name like "sweetness" or something. :neener:

Also, I have no problem with this guy coming to my church. We have a large number of people in our congregation with problems in their life. Who doesn't? We have several homeless living there until we can get them on their feet. We have drug addicts, alcoholics, and prostitutes as well. One of our church slogans is "Church is for sinners, not for saints". Its like a hospital, if no one is sick what's the point? The only thing I don't want him bringing to church is unsafe behavior that endangers me and my church family.

Finally, there is no law in Tennessee prohibiting lawful carry in a place of worship. I checked on that one a long time ago for my purposes.;) I did forget to mention earlier though that the brother left in charge of the weapon is not yet 21. So I believe he ran afoul of the law by allowing a minor to hold on to his firearm.

Well, that said this has been an intresting discussion thus far. Thanks to everybody who has contributed their opinion to this thread. I wish everybody a wonderful day!

-Kevin

P.S. Texas9, I just noticed your post about the group shoot. It would be my pleasure to shoot with a fellow responsible gun owner. If you ever make it over to Memphis drop me a P.M. and we can go send some lead downrange. And I wouldn't look down on you unless of course you out-shoot me. (long hair AND earings.... mumble mumble)

pax
October 17, 2005, 01:55 PM
I did forget to mention earlier though that the brother left in charge of the weapon is not yet 21. So I believe he ran afoul of the law by allowing a minor to hold on to his firearm.
Not likely.

Since you say "not yet 21," I'm assuming the younger brother is at least 18. Perfectly legal for him to hold that gun even if he were under 18, as long as parents or guardians approve. At 18, he could own that handgun even though he couldn't yet (fed law) buy it from an FFL. There's at least one state that issues carry permits to 18 year olds.

pax

KevinB
October 17, 2005, 02:17 PM
Yes, he is at least 18. I'm trying to read up on the law about this, but it's a little fuzzy. It says that you can't sell, loan, or give a firearm to a minor. But it doesn't give the defintion of a minor. It has the definition of a juvenile as someone under 18, but still nothing for 18-21. There are exceptions of course. Hunting and sport to name a couple. And I know someone 18 or older can own a handgun. I did at one time. I just don't think there would be any exception to letting his brother hold on to a loaded handgun in public. But honestly, I really wasn't trying to figure out kind of laws were broken in this situation. Mostly, I was just focusing on the unsafe behavior.

-Kevin

P.S. Finally made 100 post!! Senior Member just has such a nice ring to it.

pax
October 17, 2005, 02:24 PM
Oh, incidentally. I dunno what your friend "should have" done.

What I would have done, being the person I am and knowing what I know, would be to reach over and snag the firearm as soon as I saw the little girl looking at it and heading that way.

Then, if & when kid brother turned around, I'd have quietly shown him that I had it and pointed toward the little girl while shaking my head. I'd have quietly handed it back to big brother when he returned.

Odds are, they'd have asked me about the whole thing after service, and I'd have explained then what had happened and why I did what I did.

Both those guys needed a lesson, sure, but that wasn't the most important thing. The most important thing was to prevent a tragedy right then and there. So that's what I would have acted immediately to prevent. I'd have done it as discreetly as possible, but I'd have done it.

pax

Texas9
October 17, 2005, 02:42 PM
Congrats on Senior Member status! I've only got about 95 more to go...:what:

Didn't mean to get too irritalbe there, it just seemed that once tattoos and such were mentioned that things went south. I mean, I'll try and dress decent for church, but I can't cover ugly:o My point, along with several others, as it turns out:), was not to judge. I'm perfectly capable of screwing up myself, just give me time:D .

Thanks for the good topic. Oh, yeah. I'm from the Memphis area (raised there for 20 yrs) and my entire family still lives there (I visit every chance I get). So I'd be happy to aerate something with you. RangeUSA still 15 bucks?

C

KevinB
October 17, 2005, 03:22 PM
Texas9,

Nah, I didn't think you were being irritable. You made a good point about not judging by appearance.

Ah a Memphis native huh? Yep, RangeUSA is 15 bucks for two people. They have specials though, college night, bring a friend night, NRA member night and so on. And since we're on the topic, if you bring your church bulletin with you on Sundays you get a free target.

Stay safe everybody,

-Kevin

rot13enatre
October 17, 2005, 03:41 PM
Rule #1 All guns are always loaded. If there's a unsecured firearm around children, it needs to be secured and the guy needs to be straightened out.

After securing it, I guess the circumstances would determine who to escalate it to and who should be talking to him. Maybe the guy is paranoid, needs hospitalized or something. Or maybe the guy pissed off the wrong people, and is afraid for his life. Who knows, maybe it wasn't even real, and he was just a goth kid trying to impress 14 year olds. And wasn't there a game on college campus's where people went around shooting each other with dart guns? Of course, the simplest explanation is probably, it was real, loaded, and there wasn't a CCW, and it needs to be escalated to law enforcement.

All that's for after the fact. First off, it needs to be secured (see Rule #1). Irresponsible gun handling around anyone, especially children, is unacceptable.

Andrew Rothman
October 17, 2005, 05:01 PM
You know,in most states if you had pocketed the gun and he had simply reported you as stealing his gun,you will go to jail,whether he's legally carrying or not.When you explained to the police you were trying to teach him a lesson,their reply would most likely be something along the lines of"That's OUR job,now put your hands behind your back."Not to mention you could possibly lose your right to own and/or carry....

Line breaks are free here at THR.

Again, there is a principle called "lesser harm."

Just like you can break the speed limit in an emergency, or fire a gun within city limts to protect your life, you can grab up a gun that poses an immediate danger.

MAURICE
October 20, 2005, 08:20 PM
[QUOTE]Lets not judge him by his taste in fashion, though. I have (at the moment) and shaved head. I am tatooed, I wear combat boots or 5.11 ATACs, and I like to wear my black hoody when it is cold outside. [QUOTE]

Yeah, but do you attend church looking like that?
Sorry about the long delay in replying.
Nope. I do not. But apparently it is cool and acceptable for people my age (I'm 22) to do this. Christian hard rock bands are popping up like the whack a mole game at the arcade. Payable on Death (POD) is one of them. If the particular church allows this kind of dress, I say let them wear it. I am not here to judge anyone. Besides dressing up in a suit on Sundays does not change who you are in the Lords eyes, it just changes what you look like.

Best,
Maurice

Molon Labe
October 20, 2005, 08:35 PM
I would take the gun and call the police.Um, why get the police involved?? I only call the police when it's a problem I can't handle on my own.

And solving this problem would have been very simple: grab the gun and keep it with you. When he gets back to his seat, hand the gun back to him, and politely but firmly inform him of his error.

And I agree with DerbyFAL that it shouldn't matter if he has a CCW license or not. A person does not need permission from the government to carry a gun.

The_Antibubba
October 21, 2005, 04:46 AM
and his brother gets up to start headbanging

THAT is where the trouble lies. Not with the Goth look, or with bringing a gun into a house of worship, or even with not wanting to risk dropping it in front of everyone, but with leaving it with a person who didn't understand the responsibility that comes with keeping a weapon. Were laws broken? I can't say, but his carelessness did cross a safety line. He should be talked to, and maybe mentored. He'd probably be very happy (behind his stolid and melancholy pose, that is) to have someone take that much interest.


Or maybe we should blame the headbangers....;)

Janitor
October 21, 2005, 07:45 AM
Or maybe we should blame the headbangers....
It is NOT the fault of the headbangers.

Blame the music. If all these kids were just listening to the Carpenters and Pat Boon, they'd be wearing white shoes and walking old ladies across the street.

-

Shipwreck
October 21, 2005, 10:25 AM
Unattended gun + unattended child = death. I would take the gun and call the police.

I don't care what he looks like. My simple concern is, he drew a gun in church. He passed it to a "non-owner", or did he? He left in unattended. The other issues (CCW, ownership, etc.) are of concern to the police. My single concern would be to remove the potential danger.

Doc2005

I agree w/ U. I would do the same.

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